MVP – Dungeons in PFO!

So, here are my ideas for a minimum viable product for Dungeons in PFO. My thought here is to get something in game sooner rather than later to add flavor, even if it may change later or be replaced with something better.

I understand that these may be seen as theme-parky, which PFO is not intended to be, but in my opinion Dungeons are an essential and classic part of the Pathfinder RPG (and related TT games) that need to be in PFO.

A caveat - I am not a computer programmer by any stretch, and frankly don’t know what this would really take to do, but from my laymen outlook it seems to me that very basic dungeons shouldn’t take a huge effort if GW focus’ on mechanics that already exist in the game. Maybe more work than adding better grass, but not a huge effort ;-)

And there is an Ideascale entry for Dungeons, feel free to go there and up or down vote that or add your comments.

Breaking this up into multiple posts for ease of digestion.

Thing 1: Dungeons spawn in hexes just like resource nodes. Seems to me this mechanic already exists. Just need to create a Dungeon “node”. I would suggest maybe 3 different cool graphics as dungeon entrances as a start. Obviously, there is art and programming associated with this.

Thing 2: When a character clicks on the Dungeon node they spawn inside the dungeon. Seems to me the de-spawning and spawning mechanic already exists (as death). This may need tweaking to work correctly. Certainly would require some sort of capability to spawn “inside” of a structure (dungeon), but should be do-able. Obviously there is programming associated with this. Of all my suggestions here, this one seems to me like the one that would take the most effort since there does not seem to be a mechanic in game now that works this way.

Thing 3: The frequency of these dungeon nodes should be pretty low, and perhaps vary by hex type. I’m pretty sure this variability and frequency mechanic already exists.

Thing 4: A nifty “nice to have” would be somehow the Dungeon node graphic changes when a character enters it so other characters coming across the node could tell if someone has been (or is in) it already. The Dungeon node should not despawn until the dungeon has been cleared. Seems to me the mechanic for this already exists, though in a slightly different form, where husks that show on mini maps are identified as already looted or not looted. Obviously there is art and programming associated with this.

Thing 5: By having a very limited number of available dungeon room types, say 3, with a similarly limited number of hall types, say 3 (straight, 90 degree turn, and “T”), and by varying the number of each you could have a pretty significant variability in dungeons. Even assuming 3 room types and 3 hall types with each dungeon having 3 of each, you have 3*3*3=27 different room/hall configurations.

Vary the number of rooms and halls from 1 each to 3 each and now you’re up to 54 dungeon configurations with a relatively low level of effort. Add in mirror images of each room/hall type and you’re into the hundreds of configurations. Heck, even if you only started with 2 room types and 2 hall types you’re still at 12 different dungeon configurations before considering mirror images.

This of course requires art and programming for the dungeon rooms and halls, and either an automated process to generate the dungeons ad hoc or someone to put together the various dungeon configurations once the art for the rooms and halls is done.

Thing 6: Clickable features. In the dungeon, you’d need clickable features that either pull up a looting screen, spawn a monster(s), or initiate a trap.

Ignore the trap part for now, because that will require trap finding/disabling and other mechanics that aren’t in game yet. Ignore the spawning monster for now, because I don’t think such mechanics exist in game yet either (but seems like it should be relatively easy to do, as spawn mechanics certainly exist, they need to be initiated by clicking something).

So, you’re left with pulling up a looting screen, for which the mechanics already exist (looting husks). So, you need art and graphics and programming for these clickable features, but for now you could use some that already exist as part of quests and environment. You’d need to add a few quintessential dungeon features, like a chest, a sarcophagi, an urns, a statues, an altar, etc.

Thing 7: Monsters. Pick a few of the existent monsters to populate the dungeons. Skeletons and Ghouls for tombs and crypts, goblins and goblin dogs for goblin dens, etc. You could implement a few more dungeon type creatures and add these gradually (rust monsters, carrion crawlers, etc.). Obviously there is programming for how many and what types spawn in specific dungeon rooms.

I agree, since GW heart does not seem to be into making a PVP focused game, they need to devote a lot more to PVE content. If they do not, this game will be a ghost town come May.

Bludd,

My thought is that this should also increase the potential for rep free PvP. I didn't note it above, but after seeing your comment and thinking on it, perhaps those who dungeon delve get a criminal flag of some sort (they are "stealing", after all) that makes them rep free PvP targets. Its a meaningful decision for delvers then - you want that juicy loot from that dungeon? Well, then you're going to be a PvP target. Then it gives PC bandits something to do, too :-).

How that flag would work or how long it is tagged to the delver probably needs thought, but perhaps so long as you carry any dungeon loot you're flagged. Perhaps the flag does not prevent you from entering your own settlement, but does prevent you from entering other settlements.

Needs some thought, but my hope is dungeons would add content for both PvE'ers as well as PvP'ers.

Bludd,

My thought is that this should also increase the potential for rep free PvP. I didn't note it above, but after seeing your comment and thinking on it, perhaps those who dungeon delve get a criminal flag of some sort (they are "stealing", after all) that makes them rep free PvP targets. Its a meaningful decision for delvers then - you want that juicy loot from that dungeon? Well, then you're going to be a PvP target. Then it gives PC bandits something to do, too :-).

How that flag would work or how long it is tagged to the delver probably needs thought, but perhaps so long as you carry any dungeon loot you're flagged. Perhaps the flag does not prevent you from entering your own settlement, but does prevent you from entering other settlements.

Needs some thought, but my hope is dungeons would add content for both PvE'ers as well as PvP'ers.

Most ideas on this site and the Goblinworks forums are half- baked and simply wouldn't work. This actually has some promise to it. It satisfies both the PvE player and the PvP player at the same time. More ideas like this is what this game needs.

Bludd,

My thought is that this should also increase the potential for rep free PvP. I didn't note it above, but after seeing your comment and thinking on it, perhaps those who dungeon delve get a criminal flag of some sort (they are "stealing", after all) that makes them rep free PvP targets. Its a meaningful decision for delvers then - you want that juicy loot from that dungeon? Well, then you're going to be a PvP target. Then it gives PC bandits something to do, too :-).

How that flag would work or how long it is tagged to the delver probably needs thought, but perhaps so long as you carry any dungeon loot you're flagged. Perhaps the flag does not prevent you from entering your own settlement, but does prevent you from entering other settlements.

Needs some thought, but my hope is dungeons would add content for both PvE'ers as well as PvP'ers.

I love the idea, but it will never happen. There is no way that Ryan or the PVE only crowd would accept rep free PvP under those circumstances. They would cry to high heaven that the game has been turned into a murder sim, because the dungeons will be crawling with PKers looking to camp the exits from the boss battle room.

Bludd,

My thought is that this should also increase the potential for rep free PvP. I didn't note it above, but after seeing your comment and thinking on it, perhaps those who dungeon delve get a criminal flag of some sort (they are "stealing", after all) that makes them rep free PvP targets. Its a meaningful decision for delvers then - you want that juicy loot from that dungeon? Well, then you're going to be a PvP target. Then it gives PC bandits something to do, too :-).

How that flag would work or how long it is tagged to the delver probably needs thought, but perhaps so long as you carry any dungeon loot you're flagged. Perhaps the flag does not prevent you from entering your own settlement, but does prevent you from entering other settlements.

Needs some thought, but my hope is dungeons would add content for both PvE'ers as well as PvP'ers.

Interesting idea.

But what you are suggesting there would need some kind of new mechanic to flag the delvers.

I think it would be easier to have the dungeons be PVP free areas (the mechanic for that already exists)

I also think that these node dungeons should expire at server down, regardless of whether they have been fully explored or emptied.

This will help avoid camping of the exits or other choice spots.

One issue that would need to be resolved would be what happens to players who log out (or don't manage to get out of the node dungeon) before server down? Where do they respawn? Do they take a durability hit, but keep all loot?

Suggesting that making dungeoneers rep-free kills belies a lack of understanding about what Reputation is intended to do, or a suggestion for a radical change to Reputation.

Suggesting that making dungeoneers rep-free kills belies a lack of understanding about what Reputation is intended to do, or a suggestion for a radical change to Reputation.

As I said, good idea, but has no chance of getting past this desire to limit PvP to predictable circumstances and outcomes.

PvP must be infrequent, penalize the aggressor, and limit the reward to below what makes sense to partake in it.

Making dungeons open PvP will upset all three agendas of the current vision of PFO.

The introduction of dungeons will just add a new flavor of grinding.

belies a lack of understanding about what Reputation is intended to do

Could be, though I don't agree.

See what this says:

Blood on the Tracks

Trespasser: Entering a settlement city that has forbidden you entry (due to too low reputation or other mechanics) applies the Trespasser flag, which persists while you're in the area and briefly after leaving. This might also be applied for entering other areas where your simple entry is sufficient to allow you to be attacked and driven off.

So, delvers could be flagged as thieves or trespassers, pick your poison. Both could fit with the spirit of the idea.

But, as I said, I hadn't put a lot of thought into it. You can beat me up some more if it suits your fancy. It is a good thing to have dissenting opinions.

The pillars are:-

Adventure
Exploration
Development
Dominion

I'd argue as Ryan said: The Adventure = TT RP and PFO is adding the other 3.

Now, taking that as the given, I would as I am unfortunately harping on now, change the scale and grow the 3 that combine ie:-

Exploration = World : Make it epic with new scale ; add tons of nasty beasties and resource finding being very tricky out-back. Ie hex system get this going and add variety and lushousness at this new scale. Impassable rivers and so on... mountain gorges... dark woods.

Development = Buildings system: Churn this out and make the scale truly a maze of development.

Dominion = faster iteration on the rules of engagement so they're controlled but players are having PvP and that is informing the devs what to shape up next. Get formations going sooner.

================

So, I think prioritize these 3. Then try to woo the PF TT players and develop th Adventure stuff after securing the MMO market. This needs to be based on the success of the kingdoms to offer the adventures for the new players as reward. These adventure specialists could be very separate from the above but the Dungeons need to be really worthy of the PF TT at the smaller roguelike scale as it were. Full of incident and daring and swift death.

TL;DR: This comment comments on the ORDER of what to do via the previous change of scale. I think get the mmo market via the previous, then get the PF TT players who want the world context to their adventure parties and don't care for the domination game... AT FIRST!

PvP must be infrequent, penalize the aggressor, and limit the reward to below what makes sense to partake in it.

Would this not be an excellent place for the bandits to have a scout posted near the dungeon, identify who is entering, ready to declare a short-term feud against the company they saw entering it so they can fight without rep penalty when they emerge?

On which subject, will our targets find out automatically that we've feuded them, or find out the hard way? If automatic, is it instant, or is there a realistic period of lacking the knowledge? Will they know for how long the feud is declared or when it is ended? (other than by seeing red-flagged characters)

If you want to camp the dungeon exit to gank the characters leaving it, just do so. You can kill a full group of max Rep characters and not go Low-Rep, and you can do that a couple of times each month.

What you can't do is remain High-Rep and play in a style where you contiously kill arbitrary characters and take their stuff; you will be able to target a group and try to kill them and take their stuff.

Considering that Darkness Falls is probably the most talked about and wished for experience in any MMORPG. I am really surprised that Goblinworks throws up their hands and says it's too hard and takes too much time. Having open dungeons with big risk and rewards for PVP and PVE seems like a natural fit for the IP. Not having it and having no plans for it in the near future just seems so odd and unfortunately a missed opportunity.

Thing 4: A nifty “nice to have” would be somehow the Dungeon node graphic changes when a character enters it so other characters coming across the node could tell if someone has been (or is in) it already.

I like most of your dungeon ideas, but not this one. Seems like a way for bandits to just camp outside and attack when the explorers leave. If someone wants to jack what I've just gathered in a dungeon, let them come inside to see if I'm in there. I mean, if we had camps and horses, etc., outside, it'd be one thing, but to just flag a dungeon as "occupied" seems too easy. If that happens, folks are going to have to post sentries outside dungeons while others go in to explore. Seems like a lot of trouble.

Besides, it'd be kinda fun to delve into a dungeon, just to (surprise!) find someone else already in there.

I’m happy that this is getting some discussion, thanks all for participating!

…camp the dungeon exit to gank the characters leaving it…can kill a full group of max Rep characters….

What you can't do is remain High-Rep and play in a style where you contiously kill arbitrary characters and take their stuff; you will be able to target a group and try to kill them and take their stuff.

Firstly, you are assuming all dungeon delvers are max rep characters. They of course won’t be, and I would argue in some instances they shouldn’t be. Is it OK for a Paladin to open, enter, and loot the tomb of an ancient who worshipped Iomedae? I don’t think so, a paladin defiling a tomb associated with a LG god would and should be something that is inherently heinous for that paladin. They should take a rep hit (and/or alignment hit, but since that’s not in the game lets ignore that for now). I personally see many instances (not all, but many) of dungeon delving as trespassing and/or stealing, so I think you should be flagged for it. And I like dungeon delving, I want to do it, and I’d take the hit and the risk because I think it would be that much fun. My choice.

Secondly, you are considering attacking dungeon delvers ganking. I don’t, not at all. If you find a dungeon, and you choose to go into it, you are taking a willing risk for a perceived reward. You enter at your own free will. If you choose to do that sort of thing, I have no problem with it being open season on you for a short period (e.g., while you’re carrying that loot). You can choose not to enter the dungeon and therefore not take on that PvP risk. As such, I don’t see the association with ganking at all.

Thirdly, dungeon delvers aren’t “arbitrary” characters. They chose to enter the dungeon. See secondly, above.

I don’t have the same view of dungeon delving that you do, which is fine, but I like my view better ;-)

I like most of your dungeon ideas, but not this one.

I understand your counter point, I had thought about that. My conclusion was, if you find some ancient tomb and dig open the entrance, anyone who walks by is going to know someone dug up the entrance; it would be almost impossible to hide it once you’re in. For that reason, I thought it would be good to have this feature.

If that happens, folks are going to have to post sentries outside dungeons while others go in to explore. Seems like a lot of trouble.

Yes, you’re right. But I’m not sure that’s a bad thing. Initially, these proto MVP dungeons (as I’ve laid them out) would be so small it wouldn’t really matter, because they could probably be cleared by a small group in a very short time. Down the road, when dungeons get larger (hopefully), then perhaps this is more of an issue. But I think it should be troublesome for the delvers, it should take a lot of coordination and planning and resources and personnel to delve into a large dungeon, one of those being guards or watches for the delvers.

The other thing is, perhaps not all dungeon types would have this feature. A goblin den that is used consistently by goblins, for example, may not; whereas a long sealed ancient crypt or tomb may.

Besides, it'd be kinda fun to delve into a dungeon, just to (surprise!) find someone else already in there.

I agree, this would definitely add another layer of intrigue for a second-in group. As I said in the OP, Thing 4 is a “nice to have” in my vision of these proto dungeons, so if it weren’t there it’s not a big deal to me. I would absolutely concede this point if it got us dungeons sooner. I’d much rather have dungeons sooner than not have them!

I’m happy that this is getting some discussion, thanks all for participating!

DeciusBrutus wrote:

…camp the dungeon exit to gank the characters leaving it…can kill a full group of max Rep characters….

What you can't do is remain High-Rep and play in a style where you contiously kill arbitrary characters and take their stuff; you will be able to target a group and try to kill them and take their stuff.

Secondly, you are considering attacking dungeon delvers ganking. I don’t, not at all.

It would help if we could all agree on words. I think we all know that his use of "ganking," in this context, and yours are not about the same thing.

Ganking - when multiple characters gang up on an unsuspecting target to kill them quickly and efficiently.

Decius was using it correctly, in my opinion.

in my opinion.

This, of course, being the centre of the problem. As long as group "A" thinks of it as efficient killing and group "B" sees it as morally reprehensible killing, it's hard to draw a clear line when it applies or doesn't.

I don't think that there is a moral issue here at all. Gank isn't a dirty word. Golgotha has been ganking people in the SE. I got ganked when I had to relog and accidentally found myself in the middle of Cheatle and his posse (shakes fist).

Standing outside of a dungeon with 5 friends, waiting for the people inside to filter out, is ganking.

But Lone_wolf thinks differently. As do a lot of other people, whether correctly or not.

Fair enough, I get you.

I dunno, it must just be a gaming culture difference. For the last 4 years I have mostly been a MOBA player. The work gank is just a daily part of our vocabulary. "Mid is roaming bot for a gank".

Lone_Wolf, what would you call it when someone groups up to kill someone?

Yea, Cal and Tink are right, that shows my ignorance on the term "ganking" (I am an old-school TT gamer; my very little MMO gaming experience is showing through!). I had in my mind a negative connotation to that term which was clearly not correct.

Sorry about that Decius.

And thanks Cal and Tink for setting me straight.

Lone_Wolf, what would you call it when someone groups up to kill someone?

A bad day for that someone ;-)

I don't have any problem with open, free PVP within a dungeon- simply two competing groups trying to get resources. No different than fighting over T2 escalations currently.

However, if the dungeons are instanced (as in you find the entry in the gameworld and then enter with a loadscreen- same with leaving), I think you are asking for trouble with people loading in and being killed before they have a chance to do anything, perhaps even being killed before they are actually loaded in on their client. So you'd either need some type of spawncamping protection, similar to the shrinecamping debate going on over at GW, or maybe provide multiple exits from the dungeon or random exit points.

If the dungeon isn't instanced, and you can see anyone loitering at the entry as you get close to the exit on the minimap, then I think that concern is eliminated.

I think the biggest programming challenge between PFO as it stands today and PFO with dungeons is line of sight. Right now, an archer can target and shoot through trees, hills, and buildings. In a dungeon, targeting a goblin in the next room and shooting it through the wall would be funny once, but boring after that. I have no idea how hard it's going to be to add line of sight to PFO combat, but I'm afraid dungeons will have to wait until it's done.

I don't have any problem with open, free PVP within a dungeon- simply two competing groups trying to get resources. No different than fighting over T2 escalations currently.

However, if the dungeons are instanced (as in you find the entry in the gameworld and then enter with a loadscreen- same with leaving), I think you are asking for trouble with people loading in and being killed before they have a chance to do anything, perhaps even being killed before they are actually loaded in on their client. So you'd either need some type of spawncamping protection, similar to the shrinecamping debate going on over at GW, or maybe provide multiple exits from the dungeon or random exit points.

If the dungeon isn't instanced, and you can see anyone loitering at the entry as you get close to the exit on the minimap, then I think that concern is eliminated.

The small dungeon in the Tech Demo worked just fine without being instanced. I suspect, though, that non-instanced dungeons would have to last a lot longer than the instanced variety.

A non-instanced dungeon would be part of the terrain of a hex. It would remain in place until the terrain of that hex was updated by the patcher. Either we'd need more frequent patches to add and remove dungeons, or the dungeons would have to remain in place until the next regularly scheduled patch. (Currently, that would mean three weeks.)

So, here are my ideas for a minimum viable product for Dungeons in PFO. My thought here is to get something in game sooner rather than later to add flavor, even if it may change later or be replaced with something better.

I understand that these may be seen as theme-parky, which PFO is not intended to be, but in my opinion Dungeons are an essential and classic part of the Pathfinder RPG (and related TT games) that need to be in PFO.

A caveat - I am not a computer programmer by any stretch, and frankly don’t know what this would really take to do, but from my laymen outlook it seems to me that very basic dungeons shouldn’t take a huge effort if GW focus’ on mechanics that already exist in the game. Maybe more work than adding better grass, but not a huge effort ;-)

And there is an Ideascale entry for Dungeons, feel free to go there and up or down vote that or add your comments.

Breaking this up into multiple posts for ease of digestion.

For all that is good in the world, please introduce dungeons to PFO. In my opinion it is URGENT that there is PvE other than the extremely non-gratifying escalation system. I've just got to be completely honest, this PvE experience might be the worst I've ever experienced in any online game (and I'm going back to 1999 here). It's completely soulless and devoid of anything relatively interesting.

These are my opinions, and I'm sorry if I'm coming off tough.

To be clear, we have not said that it is "too hard" and thrown up our hands.

We've said that doing it will require substantial resources we don't currently have. We cannot continue to follow our roadmap, which includes many features and systems that the game requires regardless of the presence of dungeons or no dungeons, and attempt to build a dungeon feature.

When we have those resources available, we'll do dungeons. Of course we want dungeons in the game. And they're not "too hard". They're just expensive.

"Expense" being largely measured in programmer time, which is a resource that would take lots of programmer time and money to increase.

Doubling the number of programmers would take a significant amount of productivity away from the existing team for cultural acclimation and task organization adjustments.

Dumgeons are a good candidate for player designed content.

Dumgeons are a good candidate for player designed content.

After the programming work to allow dungeons to exist is finished, and more programming work goes into making a Dungeon Creator's Toolkit, then that becomes true.

I suspect it will happen eventually, just not real soon.