All's Well that Ends in a Well

Game Master Choon


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Scarab Sages

I think I remember someone, I think it was Ed, ask if I would alter the loot drop to match the party occasionally. I don't think I will, but there is a trader in town who has connections all over the shackles. If you come out carrying loot instead of gibbering about your mother and sucking your thumb you can arrange for just about any item you want to be delivered in a couple month's time. This is not a dungeon you clear in one run.

edit: My word... 6 pages. I'm honored.


Lord Foul II wrote:


I wish I could afford a decanter of endless water
If I had exactly enough to buy one it'd be the only thing I'd buy

Okay, I'll bite. ... Why?


Seems you've found a popular adventure and an interesting character creation concept, GM Choon. Let's see what I can come up with.

4d6 - 2 ⇒ (6, 4, 5, 2) - 2 = 15
4d6 - 2 ⇒ (6, 2, 6, 5) - 2 = 17
4d6 - 1 ⇒ (6, 1, 2, 3) - 1 = 11
4d6 - 1 ⇒ (4, 5, 1, 5) - 1 = 14

So, 18,17,15,14,11,8. Nice stats to work with. Off to the PFSRD for options ...


Choon wrote:
Albion, The Eye wrote:
Albion, The Eye wrote:
GM Choon, I wanted to ask you if you will accept Hide in Plain Sight and Accomplished Sneak Attacker, since I have an idea for an Arcane Trickster running around in my head :D
GM Choon, I'll repost my questions - I don't think I've seen many recruitment threads quite as active as this one :D
What do you mean 'accept' them?

I mean if I can use them - many GMs do not allow them.


I am not a Hide in Plain Sight hater, though if you're obviously stupid about it I might rough you up. Wearing black in front of a white wall illuminated by an angel's radiant glow and claiming to hide is just stupid. They have a spell for that. If you're standing against a wall and most of your clothes are of a similar color and you stop breathing for a moment while a T-Rex gives you the once over is another story entirely.

Accomplished Sneak attack is just Boon Companion for sneak attack. Not sure why that one would get the Banhammer.


Hi there!

Wow, I totally missed this and just finished reading up on it.
Do you have a planned close date?

Scarab Sages

I originally set the end at two weeks from opening. I might drown in submissions by then, but the date's the date. :)


Damn, forgot to make some rolls.

4d6 ⇒ (1, 4, 1, 4) = 10 9 (-1)
4d6 ⇒ (6, 5, 5, 1) = 17 16 (10)
4d6 ⇒ (4, 4, 4, 2) = 14 12 (2)
4d6 ⇒ (1, 6, 3, 4) = 14 13 (3)

4d6 ⇒ (1, 3, 5, 3) = 12 11 (1)
4d6 ⇒ (5, 3, 6, 3) = 17 14 (5)
4d6 ⇒ (6, 4, 4, 6) = 20 16 (10)
4d6 ⇒ (5, 6, 3, 2) = 16 14 (5)

Looks like a keeper.

From what I saw, the best way is to take the gestalt at each even level and calculate from there.

One question I did have, are you allowing a method of making up lost caster levels with a PrC?

For instance a PrC that only progress spell casting by 8/10 levels. Could I take a level on the otherside to make up the spellcasting level?

Caster 1
Caster 2 // Other Class 1
Caster 3
Caster 4 // Other class 2
Caster 5
PrC 1 // Caster 6
Prc 2
Prc 3 // Other class 3

At this point I have 8 character levels, my spellcasting is 8th level (the PrC doesn't give caster progression at 1st), and I have 3 levels in a secondary class.

Shadow Lodge

Zanbabe wrote:
Lord Foul II wrote:


I wish I could afford a decanter of endless water
If I had exactly enough to buy one it'd be the only thing I'd buy
Okay, I'll bite. ... Why?

Well, firstly because I am terrible at spendings money

I am damn near an expert at all other aspects of this game, but spending starting money, especially low level starting money is something I suck at

Secondly via soulknife and aegis I already have the classic essential equipment for a martial character

Thirdly there are so so so many things you can do with a decanter of endless water in a dungeon


A DEW is one of my most favorite toys at higher levels.

The possibilities are just astounding.


Any spell casting remains connected to the class that produced it. In the case of PrC's, they would advance, or not, the side you placed them on. The only interaction across sides is that you may qualify using both sides. So:

Caster 1
Caster 2 // Other Class 1
Caster 3
Caster 4 // Other class 2
Caster 5
PrC 1 / Caster 5 // Other Class 3
Prc 2
Prc 3 // Other class 4

In short, no. Sorry.


Well, you can say that I AM a ... Catfolk of endless Create Water (lvl 0 'Create Water' so ... Feel free to ask for your showering water, or whatever, down there!
;-)


Well you could switch the PrC to the other side but that wouldn't help much.


I've noticed that it's a nerf on casting (and only prepared casters).

If the other class happens to have a stacking level based ability (like sneak attack, evasion, feat progression, etc) then they do stack up to character level.


One could argue that if anything would need a nerf in pathinder it would be casters though :P

(And there are some really sweet abilities you could pick up anyhow for magicans - simply having extra hp and stuff to not die is quite nice for starters^^)

Scarab Sages

If it is it's not a very severe one as far as I've been able to tell. I'm open to any argument to the contrary. This is something I just came up with so anyone's welcome to come and poke holes in it. I have a thread in the rules/homebrew forum too if you feel that such a thing is outside the scope of this thread.


If you really think it through, it's an inconvenience.

Pathfinder encounters follow the older D&D expectations of wealth by level. Some of this is assumed to be consumables that are replaced.

So if I have a wand worth 750g it's part of my WBL calculation.
If I then use up that wand, there is an expectation that my WBL did not just drop by 750g permanently, but that the wand will be replaced.

So if I spend gold to be scrolls, then consume those scrolls to write the spells to my spellbook (or cat), then the gold value of those scrolls gets replaced at some point.

It is expected that a party will consume so much of their wealth per adventure, and this is supposed to be replaced.

While there is no statement that a GM must at all times maintain WBL for characters, it has been stated that this should be used as a guide at the end of adventures to ensure a balance across characters.

And no, I'm not expecting any reckoning by a GM. What I am pointing out is that the game states consumable items are replaced to maintain WBL. Scrolls are consumables. Requiring an expenditure in scrolls to increase spells known for only a few classes has no other effect than to be a temporary gold sink for those few classes that are preparation casters.


fnord72 wrote:

I've noticed that it's a nerf on casting (and only prepared casters).

If the other class happens to have a stacking level based ability (like sneak attack, evasion, feat progression, etc) then they do stack up to character level.

I don't think it's a "nerf" as much as "a way to add some cool/flavorful/fun abilities to an already-strong class." My submission is a cleric/swashbuckler, who gets some fun Cha stuff, and will probably look at doing Monk things on the Gestalt side eventually, too, but was a bit feat-starved to go that route right away.

I'm not losing any casting, but I'm gaining 3 Swashbuckler Deeds, a panache pool, some skill points, some hit points, free Weapon Finesse, etc.


I'm not talking about two base classes, I'm talking about PrC's that force a wizard to buy scrolls to expand spells known, but doesn't require the sorcerer to do this.

The cleric must also buy scrolls while the oracle doesn't with PrC's that advance spell casting.


Ah yes that's probably just because Paizo hates* wizards. Clerics know all the spells anyhow, so they don't suffer for it.

*PrCs more likely :P


fnord72 wrote:

I'm not talking about two base classes, I'm talking about PrC's that force a wizard to buy scrolls to expand spells known, but doesn't require the sorcerer to do this.

The cleric must also buy scrolls while the oracle doesn't with PrC's that advance spell casting.

You don't have to buy scrolls to learn new spells.

You also have the option of copying from another spellbook.

"In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more."

Which is a much cheaper option.


Actually, a cleric doesn't get access to new spells when they level a PrC.

Prestige Classes that advance spell casting all state "He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting."

Since a cleric is not a spontaneous spellcaster, they do not get spells known.

--------

The fee to copy a spell is also a consumable, which also fits the position of temporary gold sink.


fnord72 wrote:

Actually, a cleric doesn't get access to new spells when they level a PrC.

Prestige Classes that advance spell casting all state "He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting."

Since a cleric is not a spontaneous spellcaster, they do not get spells known.

--------

The fee to copy a spell is also a consumable, which also fits the position of temporary gold sink.

"A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation."

Clerics know all spells on the cleric list no matter what.


I see your point, fnord. This system forces prepared arcane casters to spend more on spells than other classes in excess of the assumed consumable expenditure. That is true, especially if they PrC, but part of the responsibility of the GM, I feel, is to make sure that the situation doesn't become burdensome (any more than he/she intends).


Speaking of prepared casters, I'm probably going to end up submitting a different character and using Agarwaen as a backup character. And the second character will be a wizard.

How are you planning on having the pcs meet? Outside the dungeon? In an inn? I want to know so I can determine things like if my character should buy mundane gear that someone else will already have, if they are planning on someone else carrying things for them, ect.


Wizard's do have the drawback of having to go out of there way to add spells to their spell list but it seems like the only thing that keeps them from being OP. Arcane vs Divine magic doesn't really compare. I just don't see much of an argument when a cleric can't cast something as simple as a Fireball without using Domains.

Wizards also gain access to spells a level faster than other Arcane casters. The biggest draw is that there is no limit to their spell list. Wizard certainly isn't an easy class to play but it has the most potential behind it.

When in the hands of a pro it would be OP as f if they could get any spell they want cheap.

Of course I do think the GM has an added burden to make sure there are opportunities for the wizard to learn without a spell, like having enemy spell casters drop scrolls or their entire spell book.

Scarab Sages

Youall will probably meet in town, but we can hash that out in the discussion thread after selection.

Scarab Sages

True, DW Duck (the best duck, by the way), but the GM does have the responsibility, I feel, to make sure the wizard isn't completely starved for spells. There's a nice balance there that I hope I strike more often than not.

Shadow Lodge

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Prepared arcane casters are already basically gods

Not seeing why it matters

Scarab Sages

I invited criticism, so it came. :)


Honestly, it was less of an issue in 3.5e where you could just adopt an enemy wizard's spellbook wholesale by studying the language. Since you have to copy the spells in pathfinder, it can really stab you in the back if you spend several levels out in the wilderness, without access to a place to buy oodles of expensive ink, at the very least.

Of course, PRCs gave you more spells known back then too.

Either way, I really should get around to finishing Ayling up.


A few questions.

1. Do Psicrytals get any class skills? I'm looking for any information on the issue and am unable to find anyting.

2. The psicrystal statblock mentions that the psicrystal has a hardness of 8. I assume that this translates into damage reduction, or am I wrong about that?

3. Can I provide a mythweavers character sheet for my crunch?


Choon, what's your opinion on half-elves taking human racial feats?

I could swear there was an official ruling saying that they could take both human and elven feats but I can't seem to find it anywhere.


Michael7123 wrote:

A few questions.

1. Do Psicrytals get any class skills? I'm looking for any information on the issue and am unable to find anyting.

I can't remember reading that they do. Looking back on the entry, they apparently do not. The entry says,
Quote:
Skills: A psicrystal has the same skill ranks as its owner, except that it has a minimum of 4 ranks each in Perception and Stealth. (Even if its owner has no ranks in these skills, a psicrystal has 4 ranks in each.) A psicrystal uses its own ability modifiers on skill checks.

No mention of class skills.

Quote:
2. The psicrystal statblock mentions that the psicrystal has a hardness of 8. I assume that this translates into damage reduction, or am I wrong about that?

Yes, though it works slightly differently because of rules pertaining to objects, but you can think of it as that and be generally right.

Quote:
3. Can I provide a mythweavers character sheet for my crunch?

Yes, though I still like to have at least a basic summary presented in your alias for reference, not just a link. I do lots of posting from my phone and sheets like that don't always translate well.

Scarab Sages

Dildo_Dabbins wrote:

Choon, what's your opinion on half-elves taking human racial feats?

I could swear there was an official ruling saying that they could take both human and elven feats but I can't seem to find it anywhere.

I think you can, yes. At least that's the last I heard.


Mr. GM Choon, Pharom is 100% complete now, with description and background. Happy recruiting, and may the odds be ever in your favor, everyone!


I volunteer as tribute!

Oh, wait, wrong story... :) Although the death ratio might be similarly high in Rappan Athuk, from what I've been reading in the player's guide.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

From what I've heard about this dungeon, having a backup character ready to go isn't a terrible idea.


Everyone in the player's guide seemed pretty happy and functional. They even seemed to look back fondly on their time in the dungeon, to be honest. So even though they're saying things like "my buddy died", the way their saying it is "yeah, the dungeon was a great time, it killed my buddy just like it said on the back of the book."

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, I only actually got that feeling a few times, and it was certainly a very well written document otherwise.


I might have missed some entries but here's what I see so far:

Tihn Tremako Ratfolk Wizard 4/Investigator 2

Ma'an Undine hydrokineticist 4/unchained monk 2

Kayla Black Scorpion gnome ninja 4/slayer 2

Godric Alden Aasimar Paladin 2/ Bloodrager 4

(Lord Foul II) Psionic something? Don't think this is finished. Didn't see a name for the character.

Wilson Krane angelkin unchained monk 2/unchained summoner 4

Vuzi Ognok half-orc oracle 4/sorcerer (tattooed sorcerer) 2

Zadira Aasimar Deep Earth Sorcerer 4 / Dungeon Rover Ranger 2

Catarya Utanbe Undine Warpriest 4 / Unchained Rogue 2

Roggee Goblin aegis 2/unchained rogue 4

Agarwaen Umarth Half-Elf Ranger 4/ Bloodrager (Blood Conduit) 1, Inquisitor (Spellbreaker) 1

Pharom Melisander Half-Elf Blossoming Light 4/Whirling Dervish 1/Un Serpent-Fire Adept 1


Choon wrote:
Dildo_Dabbins wrote:

Choon, what's your opinion on half-elves taking human racial feats?

I could swear there was an official ruling saying that they could take both human and elven feats but I can't seem to find it anywhere.

I think you can, yes. At least that's the last I heard.

Yes. It's a basic feature of the race:

PRD wrote:
Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.

"Any effect" includes qualifying for feats.


Simply adding myself there. I'm done - but some shopping, but most is set there as well
Simon Blue-Eye Catfolk Hunter 4 / UC Rogue 2

Shadow Lodge

Peet wrote:

I might have missed some entries but here's what I see so far:

Tihn Tremako Ratfolk Wizard 4/Investigator 2

Ma'an Undine hydrokineticist 4/unchained monk 2

Kayla Black Scorpion gnome ninja 4/slayer 2

Godric Alden Aasimar Paladin 2/ Bloodrager 4

(Lord Foul II) Psionic something? Don't think this is finished. Didn't see a name for the character.

Wilson Krane angelkin unchained monk 2/unchained summoner 4

Vuzi Ognok half-orc oracle 4/sorcerer (tattooed sorcerer) 2

Zadira Aasimar Deep Earth Sorcerer 4 / Dungeon Rover Ranger 2

Catarya Utanbe Undine Warpriest 4 / Unchained Rogue 2

Roggee Goblin aegis 2/unchained rogue 4

Agarwaen Umarth Half-Elf Ranger 4/ Bloodrager (Blood Conduit) 1, Inquisitor (Spellbreaker) 1

Pharom Melisander Half-Elf Blossoming Light 4/Whirling Dervish 1/Un Serpent-Fire Adept 1

the Character goes by Marco T. Cain, and it's an Elan Soulknife 4/aegis 2

That character sheet is done except for needing traits and equipment
Equipment I will do later, but traits are fate's favored and psionic knack

Shadow Lodge

Michael7123 wrote:

A few questions.

1. Do Psicrytals get any class skills? I'm looking for any information on the issue and am unable to find anyting.

2. The psicrystal statblock mentions that the psicrystal has a hardness of 8. I assume that this translates into damage reduction, or am I wrong about that?

3. Can I provide a mythweavers character sheet for my crunch?

Hardness is actually better than DR in most ways as if also applies to energy damage and halves energy damage before applying it


@Choon - How do you feel about mixing the Black Blade (Bladebound Magus class feature) and Bladed Brush (Shelyn feat)?

The point would of course be to have a black blade that is a glaive as that is both useful and a delicious nod towards Shelyn herself and the Whisperer of Souls.

The problem is that, by raw, a glaive would only qualify as a black blade while wielded and I know some people do not feel that that is enough.

I personally (obviously :P) do think it is enough but, since you are the all-mighty GM, I thought it would be good to ask how you feel before rushing along too much.

Note: I wouldn't mind playing it full raw and simply having the black blade turn off once it leaves the characters grasp. In a dungeon crawl that isn't too much of a drawback and if you want to view it as an opportunity for shenanigans I'm all game : )

Black Blade:
A black blade is a particular form of intelligent weapon gained by a magus with the bladebound archetype. There are several ways a magus might gain this weapon. Sometimes it just appears among the magus’s possessions, and its origin is a mystery. Other times the magus finds a black blade during an adventure or event of some kind. Sometimes a black blade is passed down generation to generation in an ongoing search for a magus who can unlock its true potential.

A black blade is always a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane. The magus chooses the blade’s type upon gaining the blade, and once chosen, it can’t be changed. As a bladebound magus increases in level, his black blade gains power.

A black blade is independently conscious but features some personality traits reflecting its wielder. A black blade always has the same alignment as its wielder and even changes its alignment if its wielder does. The blade typically works toward its wielder’s goals, but not always without argument or backlash. Each black blade has a mission, and while sometimes two or more black blades will work in concert, each mission is singular in purpose (the black blade’s mission is usually up to the GM and the needs of the campaign or the adventure, or a GM can determine the weapon’s purpose randomly using Table: Intelligent Item Purpose). Some black blades are very open about their missions, but most are secretive. Certain sages have speculated that an invisible hand or arcane purpose moves these weapons.

Bladed Brush:
You know how to balance a polearm perfectly, striking with artful, yet deadly precision.

Prerequisite(s): Weapon Focus (glaive), must be a worshiper of the associated deity.*

Benefit(s): You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a glaive sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike).

As a move action, you can shorten your grip on the glaive, treating it as though it lacked the reach weapon property. You can adjust your grip to grant the weapon the reach property as a move action.

*Shelyn; I copied it from pfsrd20


A glaive doesn't qualify for Black Black, even with Bladed Brush.

Black Blade is asking for a certain type of physical item.

I'm not even sure why you would want to use a glaive as a Magus you can't Spell Combat with it anyway. You don't have the required free hand.


You choose the type of blade when you gain it (second paragraph, second sentence). As long as you are wielding a glaive a glaive is counts as a one handed slashing melee weapons for class features. Black Blade is a class feature that asks for a one handed slashing melee weapon.

Black Blade is asking for a certain type of physical item and Bladed Brush lets another type of item pretend to be the right one. Same way there are numerous tricks to overcome Regeneration: Cold with Fireball.

And Spellstrike is the juiciest part of the Magus anyhow; Spell Combat is meh in comparison (imo). I prefer the multiround touch spells like Frostbite or Chill Touch, as they have a great value per spell, and casting new spells just messes with that.


Reading through the submissions ...
Man ... Pathfinder really has it all, doesn't it?
Regardless how many builds you have seen, or made by yourself ... always someone comes along with a new one that surprises the heck out of you ^^

My special surprise position goes to Pharom at the moment.
Man what a build. Took me several ten minutes to digest all this and put pieces together. What a *deadly* take on a 'mercyfull healer' you got there...

And I thought myself clever to build a hunter able to sneak attack every single time while working together with his ac and denying the enemy AoOs... ;-)


Nice find, Lessah! We can play it Raw. I have a few ideas in that direction. Your blade is more of a conduit for another intellegence than independently intelligent in and of itself. You have no idea who or what that intellegence is, only that its ego is powerful and
2d100 ⇒ (83, 23) = 106
It obsessively defends the interests of Shelyn, typically by suggesting you murder anyone opposed to it's perception of the goddesses tenets to death.


Hello! I'd like to present here my stat rolls and apply. My idea is to play any kind of caster/martial, like Inquisitor, Warpriest or Magus, aided by a full martial as the 1.5 gestalt. Let's see how nice the Die God is today!

1 -> 18
2 -> 4d6 - 1 ⇒ (6, 6, 4, 1) - 1 = 16
3 -> 4d6 - 1 ⇒ (4, 1, 4, 4) - 1 = 12
4 -> 4d6 - 2 ⇒ (6, 4, 2, 3) - 2 = 13
5 -> 4d6 - 1 ⇒ (4, 4, 1, 4) - 1 = 12
6 -> 8

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