I don’t consider increasing DR, immunity to crits and precision damage and flanking, and being able to compress yourself as bad. I also don’t see how not being able to be in Humanoid form all day will get you killed.
I don't recall saying it was dangerous or it'd get you killed... I said it was bad since you can't do ANYTHING other than fight: you have to beat down doors, you can't open backpacks/waterskins/chests, climb ropes/ladders, talk with NPC's, hold a torch/book/ect, or pretty much anything else.
The archetype has a drawback that gets easier to overcome (and they removed some side-eye inducing work arounds) as you level. Having a drawback is not the same as intentionally being made bad.
Having is be SO detrimentally awful at low level is what makes it bad. Saying it's not bad if you just skip low levels and make a higher level character doesn't make it non-bad... That and IMO the 'payoff' isn't good enough to justify just how terribly bad/awful the 'drawback' is.
Wei Ji the Learner: I don't play PFS so I didn't know. I just assumed that a language created/used by the pathfinder society would be allowed IN PFS... :P
Having is be SO detrimentally awful at low level is what makes it bad. Saying it's not bad if you just skip low levels and make a higher level character doesn't make it non-bad... That and IMO the 'payoff' isn't good enough to justify just how terribly bad/awful the 'drawback' is.
Wei Ji the Learner: I don't play PFS so I didn't know. I just assumed that a language created/used by the pathfinder society would be allowed IN PFS... :P
There's a growing list of things that are created/used by the Pathfinder Society in canon that aren't allowed in PFS.
Sign language is one, the original build of the Lore Warden is on it's way out, Ioun stones are losing their full functionality in Wayfinders, etc.
Moving forward, though, if we were the development team and we were given a choice of a *small* fix, what would we fix on the Oozemorph?
If they're gonna keep the oozemorph as a class that has a massive drawback and struggles to come to terms with it, make sure you actually get some sort of bonuses as you level up to show that you're getting the hang of your new existence. Like maybe some sort of small natural armor bonus while in base form. Little things that can help them be less helpless while they are stuck not being able to interact with the world around them in a non-violent manner.
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I don’t consider increasing DR, immunity to crits and precision damage and flanking, and being able to compress yourself as bad. I also don’t see how not being able to be in Humanoid form all day will get you killed.I don't recall saying it was dangerous or it'd get you killed... I said it was bad since you can't do ANYTHING other than fight: you have to beat down doors, you can't open backpacks/waterskins/chests, climb ropes/ladders, talk with NPC's, hold a torch/book/ect, or pretty much anything else.
The archetype has a drawback that gets easier to overcome (and they removed some side-eye inducing work arounds) as you level. Having a drawback is not the same as intentionally being made bad.Having is be SO detrimentally awful at low level is what makes it bad. Saying it's not bad if you just skip low levels and make a higher level character doesn't make it non-bad... That and IMO the 'payoff' isn't good enough to justify just how terribly bad/awful the 'drawback' is.
Wei Ji the Learner: I don't play PFS so I didn't know. I just assumed that a language created/used by the pathfinder society would be allowed IN PFS... :P
(I haven’t suggested skipping levels)
I don’t see the drawback as being that cripppling, and in fact view how getting around it in character as part of the charm. Again, personal preference since I’ve also played mute charcatrs as well as characters that didn’t speak the language the party spoke and we all had fun
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Having a drawback is not the same as intentionally being made bad.
This is true, but you're undervaluing the Oozemorph's restrictions a lot more than you give it credit for. One hour per day at 1st level means you're only cooperating 1/24 of the time you're with your party. You otherwise can't talk or appropriately fight back, or even usefully interact with the game story, for 23 more hours.
Compare this to other classes that have drawbacks, like Oracles and their Curses. The Oracle Curses are a great example of Drawbacks Done Right, and the original Oozemorph doesn't even come close to that level of great design. (Even the current one still doesn't.)
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I think the Oozemorph drawback that bugs me the most is- why are you prevented from using SLAs or psychic magic when an ooze? Like I get why an ooze can't talk (though it seems it would be for the best if these oozes could), couldn't manipulate material components, or can't wiggle the fingers they don't have in the appropriate ways. But psychic magic just requires thought and emotion components, and it seems like, even if you're an ooze, you should be able to think and feel things. An Astomoi who becomes an Oozemorph is prevented from using their innate telepathy (i.e. the primary way they communicate) for a purely arbitrary reason.
I don't think gestalt oozemorph/psychics are going to be such an issue that this drawback was necessary or really contributes anything.
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I would love being able to use SLA's as an ooze. It would make my experience a little more interesting than "run to enemy, full attack until they run away, repeat til they die or I'm almost dead" strategy that I've had to work with in every session my oozemorph has been in so far. Hell I'm afraid to use Fluidic Form most of the time because I fear I'll run out of time before I can contribute to the party at all in a session.
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(I haven’t suggested skipping levels)
You're suggesting that they're fine if you make it past the lower levels: effectively the same as you're ignoring those awful, awful lower levels.
I don’t see the drawback as being that cripppling
You can't hold, comunitate or manipulate ANYTHING for 23 hours... How can you NOT find it crippling?
and in fact view how getting around it in character as part of the charm.
You and I seem to have a monumental and incompatible difference in how we comprehend 'charm'.
Again, personal preference since I’ve also played mute charcatrs as well as characters that didn’t speak the language the party spoke and we all had fun
A mute person can draw, write, hold objects, climb ropes, open doors, cloth themselves, cast spells, and use languages [sign language]... So there is almost NO similarity in the comparison of oozemorph and mute...
PS: I do want to make it clear that my contention that the archetype is bad isn't to make the author feel bad or as an attempt to slander. I'm sure it seemed like a fun idea to them, I just disagree with the mechanics and theme on a conceptual level before I even get to the magnitude of their impact on just quality of life roleplaying before I get to the mechanical reason it's bad.
This archetype seem more of an NPC one as they only have to be non-a-blob for the fight and don't have to worry about the rest of the day...
I agree with the fact that this is an npc class. A DM character would be closer to what I feel this archetype plays like. At this point even something as simple as getting the ability to communicate at like level X while in base form would be better than being unable to do anything at all except throw murder tantrums at that door you want to open.
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Just a personal opinion, but it looks to me like the reason Fluidic Body is so bad is because it has to balance out getting flat immunity to crits, precision damage, and flanking. Which IS a bit ridiculous at level 1 honestly, I think the only other class that can get full crit immunity is Kineticist by burning itself out completely. But remove the immunities and replace them with maybe scaling 25/50/75% chances to ignore (hey, chimeric aspect and up seem to be good spots for those to come online), and maybe giving the ability to at-will return to your original solid form isn't such a hard pill to swallow.
Also, that shouldn't be a polymorph effect. A 19th level wizard who melts into a puddle of goo at level 20 shouldn't suddenly find himself incapable of casting Alter Self on himself. Just make it so that an Oozemorph is naturally an ooze or humanoid and it supernaturally turns into other forms, but it can still be affected by polymorph effects when in its base forms.
Having a drawback is not the same as intentionally being made bad.This is true, but you're undervaluing the Oozemorph's restrictions a lot more than you give it credit for. One hour per day at 1st level means you're only cooperating 1/24 of the time you're with your party. You otherwise can't talk or appropriately fight back, or even usefully interact with the game story, for 23 more hours.
Compare this to other classes that have drawbacks, like Oracles and their Curses. The Oracle Curses are a great example of Drawbacks Done Right, and the original Oozemorph doesn't even come close to that level of great design. (Even the current one still doesn't.)
Exactly....
You can technically "fight back"....you still have Morphic weapons.But you cannot interact in a meaningful way for more than an hour or two a day.
That's both a useless place for a player to be in, and a burden on the rest of the party.
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Just a personal opinion, but it looks to me like the reason Fluidic Body is so bad is because it has to balance out getting flat immunity to crits, precision damage, and flanking. Which IS a bit ridiculous at level 1 honestly
If that was the reason, I think 10%/level to ignore crit/sneak attack and flank offers no bonuses to hit [immunity later] is preferable to 'can't do ANYTHING other than move and attack': a warrior gets more options 23 hours out of the day...
PS: also remember that it has NO ac buff or armor use. It needs some abilities to not die when most attacks hit.
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Another thing that erks me....is that the Armor Prof removes (or at least makes no mention of) the non-metal restriction... but then goes on to shut down the DR if you wear metal armor.
As they are limited to light armor (without multiclass or feat tax)....they should be able to retain their DR no matter what armor they are wearing.
Another thing that erks me....is that the Armor Prof removes (or at least makes no mention of the non-metal restriction) but then goes on to shut down the DR if you wear metal armor.
I find it makes little sense but it's a minor quibble to me.
non-metal light armor isn't a meaningful hurdle IMO.
PS: also remember that it has NO ac buff or armor use. It needs some abilities to not die when most attacks hit.
My DM was actually extremely confused when he went to hit my Oozemorph character and asked for AC and I only replied with a 12. I had to eat every single attack that came my way due to not having any bonuses to AC during that session.
At this point, I'm most interested in knowing who has tested things (base Shifter, Oozemorph, etc.), and how that's gone. Actual play, not just speculation.
I recall similar panic about Kineticists, and they turned out pretty fun and useful. A lot of panic on paper, decent in play. Then Starfinder went the same way (different game, I know, but same forum reaction).
Haven't had a chance to play the new stuff myself yet, so I'm withholding judgement until I can.
Thanks Sara. Looks like there is a chance to late beta test shifter is comming in paizocon. So any one going it can please help them fix it.
Where did you see this?
I'm going to PaizoCon and haven't heard back if my volunteering is a 'go' yet or not.
At this point, I'm most interested in knowing who has tested things (base Shifter, Oozemorph, etc.), and how that's gone. Actual play, not just speculation.
Shifter: boring but passable. Seemed more like the 'druids fighter/warrior' than the 'druids paladin'...
oozemorph... Close to playing a mute, armless, equipmentless warrior that can only kick things... Whatever you do, don't go near ANY animals as most natural attacks cut right through that DR...Elementalist/Weretouched: still fairly bland but full equipment use makes a viable 'beat stick' with a few tricks.
PS: for full disclosure, they were played in a short low level one shots and before the FAQ's. IMO, nothing has changed enough to alter those experiences for the lower levels [1-5] though wild shape changes allow multiple shorter changes from 4-5. That and now the oozemorph could now act as "a mute, armless, equipmentless warrior that can only kick things" that has a backpack they can't access...
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Don't forget that the goblins can steal the backpack from inside you. As of now at no penalty even. Which has prompted me to build my Oozemorph to just carry tons of cursed items that could kill whoever takes them from her.
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Don't forget that the goblins can steal the backpack from inside you. As of now at no penalty even. Which has prompted me to build my Oozemorph to just carry tons of cursed items that could kill whoever takes them from her.
I love it that will teach them to rob a slime.
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It was a small portion of the overall book. I don't think I've heard complaints about the rest of it so that might be a bit excessive granted most people myself included bought it for that part specifically. I'll be satisfied if they do a good fix, and they are motivated to do so because paizo material builds on itself. so they do that book down the line that has more shifter archetypes etc then if they want you to buy it they need to fix the shifter first. Plus they said they are looking into it. I'll take their word on that.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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To suggest that the entire book is forfeit just because you dislike the one class is a bit ridiculous. I personally think that the fixes they gave us are perfectly acceptable. Oozemorph is weird and that's fine, because it's a weird concept. I look forward to using my shifter in PFS as soon as it's added to the additional resources.
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I feel so in the middle right now between arguments about this. I think it still needs some work and fine tuning but i'm hopeful.
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I'm just happy that I bought the digital version only. That way after all of the changes and fixes are complete I will have it all available written in the form Paizo wants it to be.
Unfortunate for those who own a hard copy of the book. Their print doesn't change when errata complete.
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Uh well normally if an airbag on a car doesn't work they have you bring it in fix the airbag and then give you the car back. I think it is exceedingly rare for them to replace a whole line of cars.
I'm sorry you work at a job that is so unforgiving. I think I could make a few mistakes before they fired me.
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I suppose it is a difference in how we view things. To you it is(I am making assumption here) "Most of the product is fine so it is ok." To me it is like buying a car and the airbags don't work. I think I am not out of line saying, that I should be able to simply return the car and have my money back.
Other factor maybe that some see shifter as simply a class with flaws. I see it as utterly unacceptable submission by a professional writer, much less for a published one. While I do not advocate it, and much less demand I see it as such a screw up that if I did something equivalent in my job, I would not have one anymore and I would not see room to complain about it.
Over exaggerate much.
I don't believe you, I don't think you would get fired.
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It was a small portion of the overall book. I don't think I've heard complaints about the rest of it so that might be a bit excessive granted most people myself included bought it for that part specifically. I'll be satisfied if they do a good fix, and they are motivated to do so because paizo material builds on itself. so they do that book down the line that has more shifter archetypes etc then if they want you to buy it they need to fix the shifter first. Plus they said they are looking into it. I'll take their word on that.
I'm with you Vidmaster. They said that they are listening to feedback and more importantly, their actions reflect that they are. They have updated the main class twice and the oozemorph once (which I personally appreciate very much). Paizo doesn't have a single class that I'm aware that has dead levels and the shifter currently has four. That tells me that more adjustments are coming if only to fill those levels and ensure that the shifter is consistent with the other classes in that way. If I remember correctly, dead levels were an artifact of 3.0/3.5 D&D and Paizo eliminating them was a big positive change from D&D to Pathfinder. I don't see them moving backwards on such a basic design philosophy.
I personally like the class and my daughter can't wait to play one once the final version is available in Hero Lab. As Vidmaster alluded to, the class has great potential for customization through the creation of new aspects. I'm hoping the class is officially "locked down" (by that I mean the developer/writer letting us know that no further significant changes are likely to be forthcoming) so 3PPs can start cranking out new aspect options to play with.
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I'm with you Vidmaster. They said that they are listening to feedback and more importantly, their actions reflect that they are. They have updated the main class twice and the oozemorph once (which I personally appreciate very much). Paizo doesn't have a single class that I'm aware that has dead levels and the shifter currently has four. That tells me that more adjustments are coming if only to fill those levels and ensure that the shifter is consistent with the other classes in that way. If I remember correctly, dead levels were an artifact of 3.0/3.5 D&D and Paizo eliminating them was a big positive change from D&D to Pathfinder. I don't see them moving backwards on such a basic design philosophy.
As long as people keep it reasonable, and show some patience, in time I'm sure most of the issues will get ironed out.
I'm pretty happy.
Shifter can afford to hop in and out of animal form at fourth, and to switch forms as needed at fifth.
Shifter is better than Druid at turning into a wolf, supporting a bite-only build with iteratives. Most of my friends are interested in turning into a specific thing, and Shifter does that pretty well.
The dead levels have been filled in. I'm not going to worry too much about how that's done, since the Wild Shape change was a boost, and any filling-in that happens is a benefit on top of that.
If I want to give Shifter a further boost, I'll hand out an extra form at first level. That way, one form can be chosen for its minor aspect, and one can be chosen for its major at fourth.
I'm probably not going to play it much at high levels, but that's the case for most martial classes.
The dead levels have been filled in.
Hi QuidEst - have the dead levels been filled? If so that's great to hear. Do you know what abilities, feats, etc. were added to fill them? Going over the posts that have been made so far, it looks to me like levels 7, 12, 13, and 17 are empty. I may have missed something so.
No one actually believes the world is flat anymore. :-D
Also not sure why you're comparing it to firearms, but whatever.
At any rate, I hope you don't get fired. :-)
And I never implied you were a liar, just that I don't believe you'd be fired for something like that, big difference.
Said the guy that accidentally wrecked a brand new 40,000 dollar piece of construction equipment 3 hours after picking it up and wasn't fired for it.
No one actually believes the world is flat anymore. :-D
There REALLY are...
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Can you prove that, I live in a pretty backwards state I can honestly say no one I've ever met would argue about the shape of the Earth.
They'll argue everything else science tells them...
My personal favorite b&~%!&@ crazy argument was when a minister tried telling me god created the dinosaurs 2,000 years ago.
Funny stuff!
The Flat Earthers are a pretty wide-spread group, and sadly not all of them are in it to be ironic. Some of them even claim to have scientific proof (I have personally seen a review of one of their studies online, notably all the places they screwed up, but it was a couple years ago so I couldn't link it ^.^; )
Hi QuidEst - have the dead levels been filled? If so that's great to hear. Do you know what abilities, feats, etc. were added to fill them? Going over the posts that have been made so far, it looks to me like levels 7, 12, 13, and 17 are empty. I may have missed something so.
The dead levels have been filled in.
Nah, not the "scaling only" levels, the ones that were fully dead now, 6 and 18.
Can you prove that, I live in a pretty backwards state I can honestly say no one I've ever met would argue about the shape of the Earth.I spend way too much time despairing over people who genuinely believe the Earth is flat.
Can you prove that, I live in a pretty backwards state I can honestly say no one I've ever met would argue about the shape of the Earth.I spend way too much time despairing over people who genuinely believe the Earth is flat.
Lol! Touche!
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Let's make this better, come up with positive solutions that can do that, rather than trying to chase other routes, please?
I'm not trying to come across as antagonistic, my apologies if I came across that way.
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A certain derail into personal belief patterns isn't really helpful to the main product discussion of the thread. Substitute ANY other belief pattern there, and it could equally and incredibly hurtful.