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well, the Mystic Theurge is made for people who don't use gestalts... personally, I'm fond of them, but of course to make a gestalt character, I'd have to find a DM ready to make use of them... same problem I have with wanting to play psionic characters.
It's made to give you double 9/9 casting, adding feats would be totally OP
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Have a DM that does more than 4 encounters/day.
This alone fixes huge numbers of issues, and not just with the Mystic Theurge.
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they should really just make gestalt an official thing in pathfinder
That's what VMC is for. Except that they never developed it beyond its initial release in Pathfinder Unchained (and won't let it into PFS, last I heard), and the quality is Reay uvn.
There isn't really any need to. A minority would want that level of play and VMC was designed to be on the same footing as those without. For a few feats you can get some weak spells, so anything stronger than that for VMC is unbalanced.
If you really want gestalt than the rules can be found and implemented pretty easily.
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For clerics, that would be boosting the channels by 3d6, allow Wizards access to their meta magic feats, and so on.
Cleric and Wizard aren't the classes that need this. It's the Sorcerer, Arcanist, Witch, Oracle, Druid, and Shaman that need help in this regard. Or, if you want to really do the PRC right, you might also look at what you could do to make it attractive to classes like the Bard or Inquisitor.
I'm kind of perplexes that anyone would think its current prerequisites are acceptable. A Wizard 3 / Cleric 3 is close to unplayable; if you want this to be something fun that you can work into without becoming dead weight that the rest of the party has to carry for several sessions, it needs to have lower prerequisites.
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I think when compared to 6-level caster base classes, PrCs like mystic theurge come out pretty favorably at many levels. At very low levels you're a single class spellcaster, which is fine. Once you hit level 10 and higher, your casting progression equals or exceeds that of a 6-level caster, so as long as your other class abilities are worth it, you compare favorably to those. For example, the mystic theurge gets an entire second casting progression, which is pretty nice.
The main issue is that levels 5-8 are truly, epically painful. You're building up your second class and the neat stuff from the PrC hasn't really kicked in yet. Plus these are the levels where a lot of common builds really start to come online, and the MT character is at their worst in comparison so it's even harsher. It's also a full 1/3 of PFS levels.
Pretty much this.
Mystic Theurge is more or less fine, if a bit lacking in class features and a bit difficult to specialize into some casting roles, once you actually get to a high enough level.But, my god, is it an absolutely horrendous experience trying to properly get there. You pretty much get to cut off your characters legs and watch them painfully regrow for ~7 levels, while everyone around you is instead getting superpowers. You've got less than 1/2 BaB, one good save, terrible caster levels, worse spell level progression than everything other than 4 level casters, and you really get to learn just how important going up a single spell level is and how getting carried by the rest of the party feels. And trying to go spontaneous/prepared to actually make use of Combined Spells makes it even worse.
Lower prerequisites and (potentially) some degree of front-loading would be helpful to ease the transition into the PrC.
I'm playing a Cleric/Sorcerer (Celestial/Wild Blooded Empyreal), having just hit third (Cleric 2/Sorcerer 1) in a RotRL campaign
You haven't hit the problem levels yet. If you could qualify as a Cleric 3/Sorcerer 1 then there would be no problem; the multiclass combo works smoothly at those levels. It's the levels after this point where the pain starts.
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Mystic Theurge is a terrifically fun prestige class that is hard to pin down because there are so many fluid pieces to it. It definitely calls back to earlier D&D approaches to games, and may have lost a bit of luster due to a shift in the metagame.
Cleric gives such a flexible spell list that the prestige class enables a lot of ability to change your style of play from day to day, or even during the day. The fact you can still spontaneously convert spells to cure is useful, and having double the spell slots to prepare things means that while you could prepare the same number of spells a normal mage would, you can leave the others free to prep them later. Very much a swiss-army knife.
Wizard likewise gives you access to a very vast spell list, and more importantly the ability to scribe scrolls, which you can do for a lot more flexibility and utility during downtime. Additionally, because you can leave slots open to prepare later, so long as you have a few minutes, you can pull up something useful. Bonus points for the Wizard for Arcane Discovery: Fast Study, which means so long as you have a minute, you can prepare something. I also do not see why this does not affect your prep time for your divine class, as well. It does require you to take 5 levels in wizard first, though which either means you play straight wizard for 5, then go cleric 3 and delay start of mystic theurge a little (but also getting you access to 3rd level arcane spells at normal speed), or picking it up by continuing in wizard after taking mystic theurge levels.
With 2 hours you can scribe a 1st or 2nd level spell onto a scroll, and people often forget you can scribe more than one spell onto a scroll, which is useful for saving you actions on pulling and using them. It's also something you can pretty much do while doing your stint on watch, even going so far as to prep one spell into a remaining free slot with 15 minutes of time and then writing it into a scroll for 2 hours. It'll cost you a bit of money in materials (though your divine focus is reusable), but a nice way to convert any remaining slots into scrolls for you, or the party rogue, or other party spellcaster, or anyone with UMD, to hold onto.
A lot of people get caught up over the delayed spell levels, but that logic generally involves the assumption that the mystic theurge is the only mage in the party and revolves around certain opportunity costs, namely spell DC and delayed access to spell levels.
Spell DC ends up not being that much of a problem since you can prep in a higher spell slot (in either of your casting classes), which keeps lower level spells relying on DCs a bit more relevant later on, or you can simply choose not to focus on save DC reliant spells. Often times party equivalent CR encounters involve multiple lower CR monsters, so it isn't dead and done as far as spell DCs go.
Additionally, you can focus hard on one casting ability score (prioritizing INT on the Wizard over WIS on the Cleric, for example), which keeps your ability bonus to spell DC relevant, or attempt to split more evenly between the two, which generally results in more spells per day, but lower, more average spell DCs. A fun side effect of having both arcane and divine spells is that some feats like Spell Focus get more mileage, since divine spells are also tied to certain schools, so you can be a lot more precise with your spell feat tool selection.
One often overlooked bonus of Combined Spells is the line "The components of these spells do not change, but they otherwise follow the rules for the spellcasting class used to cast the spell." This means that you could prepare some potent Arcane spells on your Divine Caster's slots, and cast them following the rules for the divine caster class. Which means you can cast it in armor, and/or while wielding a shield (which is also easy to remove outside of combat, lowering the need for arcane armor training). In fact, a mystic theurge gets a lot of benefit from carrying a shield, which most arcane classes can't do. Obviously Mage Armor is a reliable buff you can set on yourself, too.
To expand on that and say that because you have so many spell slots, it is nice to be able to leave a few slots open to prepare for later, and also be able to use the cleric slots as batteries, since you can prep arcane spells (at a higher level, yes) in them which you can then use in combat while wearing armor, or even spontaneously convert to healing spells if need be. This leaves you with some different armor options, which makes things like the armored coat fun, since you can don/doff it quickly outside of combat if you need to cast an arcane spell.
At higher levels the mystic theurge is also a very effective counterspell mage, which can really lock down both arcane and divine casting bosses for practically the entire duration of a fight.
It is the ultimate generalist mage filling a support role, and also uniquely shines in parties with one other spellcaster who is a specialist, especially the 3/4 6th lvl spell casters. They often suffer from a limited number of spells per day or smaller number of spells known, which the mystic theurge can compensate for with their spellcasting and scroll creation.
Theurges make terrific magic item creators in general, from wands to staves, magical arms and armor, etc.
One potential problem is the feeling of lacking in feats, but with the number of feats out there in Pathfinder these days, I always find myself wishing I had more feats, no matter what class I play.
Falling behind on caster level generally hurts more, but as other posters have shown, there are several ways to deal with that - Multidisciplined, Bifurcated Mind, Magical Knack are all ways to approach it.
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Playing a core mystic theurge in a home game, just got to 8th. Just a bit rough as the only cleric/wizard in the group (+ a Wilder), the last couple levels. Otherwise I'm quite happy, and do t see a need for a boost. But perhaps a level 1 benefit that doesn't scale well? Give a shot in the arm right as you get into the class?
As a prestige class, Mystic Theurge should be a 15 level class and a character should be able to enter it at 6th level.
I still prefer it as a base class.
^I have heard that the pre-release version of Hellknight was 15 level. Also, the D&D 3.5 Unearthed Arcana Prestige Bard, Prestige Paladin, and Prestige Ranger were 15 level, as is the Kirthfinder Prestige Paladin, but as far as I can tell, unfortunately these never caught on, and never made it into Pathfinder.
If you could make a base class with the material - and I think there's enough in the mystic theurge concept for that - then a 15 level PrC should be easy enough. The only reason that's being suggested here though is to cover those who will play their characters to level 20, which definitely excludes me.
I remember the Moonspeaker, a 12 level PrC in D&D which had no shortage of features.
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Weird how in D&D 3.x and Pathfinder, base classes take you to level 20 (and Pathfinder usually puts the capstone at 20 or splits between 19 and 20), bu prestige classes usually capstone out at 10th level, which usually means character level 15 or 16.
D&D was a lot less standardised than that UAE. Many prestige classes were 5 levels long for a start, and some needed more than 5-6 levels to enter. That moonspeaker I mentioned needed 8 levels before entry which meant it capped at L20 exactly.
are there even any 15th level prestige classes?As a prestige class, Mystic Theurge should be a 15 level class and a character should be able to enter it at 6th level.
I still prefer it as a base class.
The Mystic Theurge should be one. After 10 levels, there is only 2 or three levels left. What do you do with them?
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usually i see people level up what ever base classes they used to get into mystic thurge
Generally you focus exclusively on one so you can get 9th level spells, so the other one gets neglected. It's a bit awkward, but the Mystic Theurge has already matured by these levels so I don't really regard it as a problem. Not in the way the valley of suck is.
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D&D was a lot less standardised than that UAE. Many prestige classes were 5 levels long for a start, and some needed more than 5-6 levels to enter. That moonspeaker I mentioned needed 8 levels before entry which meant it capped at L20 exactly.
That's why I said "usually" -- yes, the 5 level (or sometimes 3 level) prestige classes would get you sort of a capstone well before 15th level (unless they were obligate really late entry), while some prestige classes (like Dwarven Defender) were 10 level AND obligate late entry.
With respect to improving Mystic Theurge itself -- one of the problems of Mystic Theurge is that it is a generic prestige class, that doesn't really have much prestige in it, unlike a prestige class like either type of Hellknight, that is connected to an organization and philosophy. But it doesn't have to be this way. What if Mystic Theurge had several flavors for different deities, each with its own method of early entry? For example, the Equipment Trick (Sunrod) trick would normally be banned, but allowed for worshippers of deities with the Sun Domain (most commonly Sarenrae), while worshippers of deities with the Magic Domain (most commonly Nethys) would be able to gain early entry with spell-like abilities (again, normally banned, but these worshippers would be able to use this trick). We're a bit thin on things like this, but some similar methods could be generated for a decently large subset of the other major deities.
* * * * * * * *
Edit: I just realized that for making the best of the existing Mystic Theurge prestige class as is, the new Foundation of Faith Cleric archetype is good for trading out Channel Energy (which is quickly going to become useless after you quit progressing Cleric) with Granite Focus, which doesn't scale with level but remains useful at higher levels, and will alleviate the need for a feat like Combat Casting or Warrior Priest, although it does eat into action economy.
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With respect to improving Mystic Theurge itself -- one of the problems of Mystic Theurge is that it is a generic prestige class, that doesn't really have much prestige in it, unlike a prestige class like either type of Hellknight, that is connected to an organization and philosophy. But it doesn't have to be this way. What if Mystic Theurge had several flavors for different deities, each with its own method of early entry? For example, the Equipment Trick (Sunrod) trick would normally be banned, but allowed for worshippers of deities with the Sun Domain (most commonly Sarenrae), while worshippers of deities with the Magic Domain (most commonly Nethys) would be able to gain early entry with spell-like abilities (again, normally banned, but these worshippers would be able to use this trick). We're a bit thin on things like this, but some similar methods could be generated for a decently large subset of the other major deities.* * * * * * * *
Edit: I just realized that for making the best of the existing Mystic Theurge prestige class as is, the new Foundation of Faith Cleric archetype is good for trading out Channel Energy (which is quickly going to become useless after you quit progressing Cleric) with Granite Focus, which doesn't scale with level but remains useful at higher levels, and will alleviate the need for a feat like Combat Casting or...
Interesting idea. What about Druids?
Interesting idea. What about Druids?
With respect to improving Mystic Theurge itself -- one of the problems of Mystic Theurge is that it is a generic prestige class, that doesn't really have much prestige in it, unlike a prestige class like either type of Hellknight, that is connected to an organization and philosophy. But it doesn't have to be this way. What if Mystic Theurge had several flavors for different deities, each with its own method of early entry? For example, the Equipment Trick (Sunrod) trick would normally be banned, but allowed for worshippers of deities with the Sun Domain (most commonly Sarenrae), while worshippers of deities with the Magic Domain (most commonly Nethys) would be able to gain early entry with spell-like abilities (again, normally banned, but these worshippers would be able to use this trick). We're a bit thin on things like this, but some similar methods could be generated for a decently large subset of the other major deities.* * * * * * * *
Edit: I just realized that for making the best of the existing Mystic Theurge prestige class as is, the new Foundation of Faith Cleric archetype is good for trading out Channel Energy (which is quickly going to become useless after you quit progressing Cleric) with Granite Focus, which doesn't scale with level but remains useful at higher levels, and will alleviate the need for a feat like Combat Casting or...
Not sure which of the ideas you were referring to with Druids, so:
Part 1 (legitimizing early-entry cheese): Come up with something suitably thematic for the Green Faith and nature-themed deities, in the general idea of what I posted above, but differing in important details -- should work fine for Druids as well as Clerics.
Part 2 (being stuck with class features that effectively become half-baked because you aren't advancing them as a Mystic Theurge): Assuming that you progress Druid only up to level 3, most of your non-spellcasting abilities do not scale (Nature Sense, Woodland Stride, and Trackless Step), whereas only one does for sure (Wild Empathy), and one may or may not scale depending upon what options you choose (Nature Bond). Wild Empathy is a lost cause, but for Nature Bond, if you choose a Domain, you might be able to choose one that is good even if you never advance it beyond 3rd level (and the Domain Spell slots will progress and are nice to have); whereas for an Animal Companion, if you DON'T get your Druid levels first(*), and you DON'T do early entry on your arcane class(**), and you DO retraining shenanigans(***), you can get Nature Soul and then Animal Ally to get what is initially a character level - 3 Animal Companion, but which your 3 Druid levels(****) conveniently catch up to full level without having to spend a feat on Boon Companion, although your choice of Animal Companion will be limited to those allowed by Animal Ally.
(*)Counterintuitive because you slightly rip yourself off on hit points, but required by the following weird characteristics of the Animal Ally feat.
(**)Animal Ally has the weird combination of prerequisite that you must NOT have an Animal Companion (including a Mount), combined with the text that says that if you already have Animal Ally, it stacks with an Animal Companion that you get later.
(***)Animal Ally has the weird prerequisite character level **4th**, even though nothing grants a general feat at 4th level, or at any even level without using Advanced Rogue Talent (Feat).
(****)Assuming no early entry cheese on the Druid side. If you can get early entry cheese on the Druid side, your Animal Companion will be at your character level - 2 without Boon Companion, making the Animal Companion option less attractive (too bad you can't spend half a feat on Half-Boon Companion), but on the other hand, your arcane class will get better spellcasting, and if you find a Domain that has a good 1st level power that stays good at higher levels without receiving any progression, this option remains attractive.
The Animal Ally trick also works for Sylvan Sorcerer + {something other than Druid} provided that you get Sylvan Sorcerer 2nd, but not as well, because Sylvan Sorcerer's Animal Companion is also at class level - 3 (but minimum 1), so it will never catch your Animal Ally Companion all the way up to your character level without Boon Companion.
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A mystic theurge is a hybrid of two classes. Rather than trying to make it unique, let its uniqueness be its hybridity. Another known fact is being 2 levels behind in 2 full casting classes is about the right balance.
Class features:
At 1st and 5th level, only "+1 spellcasting level in 1 arcane and 1 divine class" is gained.
Prerequisites: 2nd caster level in both a divine casting class and an arcane casting class, 4 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), 4 ranks in Knowledge (Religion).
At every level except 1st and 5th of Mystic theurge, you gain ALL abilities under the "Class Features" title as listed in the two base classes you have levels in (see the "Aligned Class" feature of the Evangelist [ISG]). This includes everything except BAB, saving throw improvements, and skill points. For example, a wizard would advance his school abilities, arcane bond, gain new spell slots, and scribe 2 spells in his spellbook; a cleric would advance domain abilities and channel, as well as new spell slots; etc.
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Big thanks to everyone who mentioned the Theurge base class fromm Kobold Press!
The class is one of the 12 classes featured in the newly updated and expanded New Paths Compendium hardcover which releases in just a few!
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A mystic theurge is a hybrid of two classes. Rather than trying to make it unique, let its uniqueness be its hybridity. Another known fact is being 2 levels behind in 2 full casting classes is about the right balance.
[b]** spoiler omitted **
Why did the system crap itself at the most opportune moment?! It cut most of what I tried to post!!!
Anyway, the key to making the mystic theurge work is reducing its prerequisites down to 2 caster levels in each class - that way cheese is unnecessary and it is fair no matter what the spell progression is in the base class.
The other important thing is a mystic theurge is meant to be a hybrid of 2 classes, yet gets none of the class abilities. The Exalted prestige class in Inner Sea Gods has an ability called "Aligned Class", where a base class is chosen and ALL class abilities are gained at each level after the first (except BAB, saves, and skill points). Give the mystic theurge 2 Aligned Classes which grant all class abilities for every level except 1st and 5th, which grant only +1 spell level in 2 classes. This makes the character 4 levels behind in class abilities, of which many can be made up with a single feat. So the character should still find the class abilities viable, with the potential to make up the lost levels.
A nice touch to mitigate the waning class abilities is a special ability at 5th level which allows the character to add 4 levels to a single class ability, bringing it to the strength of a single-classed character. This could allow a mystic theurge to channel as a pure cleric, thus making a great necromancer; or make a druid's animal companion full strength, or wild shape uncompromised; etc.
Finally, the mystic theurge should have an unbounded progression. If that's too complicated, it should progress to at least 16th level.
2 caster levels per class does not make sense, one could be enough, or commitment can be demanded as per the current requirement for ability to cast 2nd lvl spells. but adding class features (like specifying that MTh levels stack with base class levels for this or that class features, like school powers, undead turning/rebuking, or even druid abilities...) might mitigate the barebones nature of the MTh... similarly, making it into a 12 levels PrC instead of 10 levels might help.
It seems to me that requiring 2/2 levels of its two casting classes would work -- but there's always going to be a disconnect between cleric/wizard on the one hand and sorc/oracle on the other, or any other mixture of prepared classes and spontaneous classes, because the one combination is going to be two levels ahead at casting the higher-level spells, which is really big. If you make sorc/oracle average, then cleric/wizard gets to be monstrously good... if you make cleric/wizard OK, then sorc/oracle is probably too far behind.
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^Being less MAD is of some help for the Sorcerer/Oracle, although I'm not convinced it's enough, and the benefit is spread unevenly -- some spontaneous casters DON'T use Charisma as their casting stat, and a few prepared casters DO, and those can be combined with other classes using the same stat to make a better combination than average for the Mystic Theurge.
Combinations that come to mind that do the above (prepared and spontaneous casting, except as noted, on the same casting stat):
- The classic Cleric (or Druid) + Empyreal Sorcerer (dual Wisdom-based casting) -- Empyreal Sorcerer isn't so great by itself, but for Mystic Theurge you don't care much about its non-spellcasting class features that aren't going to get progressed, so this is a good combination.
- Oracle + Seducer Witch (dual Charisma-based casting) -- this doesn't make very good use of Witch spellcasting, though, and doesn't progress your Hexes (so unlike the combinations above and below, this combination isn't very good).
- Sorcerer + Feyspeaker Druid (dual Charisma-based casting) -- I forgot about this archetype last night -- this does replace Medium Armor proficiency with an ability (Wild Mischief) that scales with your Druid level, but you probably won't want to use armor anyway.
- Wizard + Living Grimoire Inquisitor (dual Intelligence-based prepared casting) -- while the Inquisitor is 6/9 casting, which would normally be bad for Mystic Theurge, if you go Wizard-focused and get the Faith Magic Arcane Discovery at 7th level, it only costs you the feat for this discovery and 1 level of delay in your Wizard progression, so it could still be worth it even though you will be very late entry on the divine side.
An easy patch would be a feat that lets you skip over some prerequisites.
Theurge Training
Prerequisites: Able to cast both arcane and divine spells
Benefit: You may take levels of the Mystic Theurge prestige class, even if you don’t meet the usual prerequisites of that class.
Special: If you lose this feat, you lose access to any other spell casting granted by the mystic theurge class.
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{. . .}
The other important thing is a mystic theurge is meant to be a hybrid of 2 classes, yet gets none of the class abilities. The Exalted prestige class in Inner Sea Gods has an ability called "Aligned Class", where a base class is chosen and ALL class abilities are gained at each level after the first (except BAB, saves, and skill points). Give the mystic theurge 2 Aligned Classes which grant all class abilities for every level except 1st and 5th, which grant only +1 spell level in 2 classes. {. . .}
A semi-aligned class feature would be good for several prestige classes. Hellknight Signifer takes a shot at this (not in name), but is missing options for several classes. I wouldn't want to do this very much for Mystic Theurge, though -- that would become almost an outright Gestalt.
One fix for the 6/9 vs 9/9 spellcaster problem would be to let you progress more stuff other than spellcasting on a 6/9 spellcasting class.
I'm not a hundred percent sure this might be the forum to ask, but I have been reading that the Mystic Theurge is considered to be underpowered. What can be done to bring the prestige class up and an attractive choice for players to build towards?
I'm playing this homebrew in a campaign right now
It's been working very well, but the class can be complicated to play.
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^That's what some of the third party Theurge (or Mystic Theurge) base classes and some of those made by other posters in this thread do. These don't yet feel quite right, but people are probing in the right general direction.