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This is a FAQ Thread that questions whether Tower Shields can be made out of metal (or other similarly durable materials), and the ramifications behind doing so.
This has been a fairly common issue that has occurred on numerous times, and the arguments for and against the proposed idea are fairly laid out, but one doesn't definitively prove their answer is correct, resulting in a stalemate whose answer boils down to "Ask your GM."
Unfortunately, this sort of thing doesn't exactly apply in the case of PFS players who want to utilize a Tower Shield (or other home games who face similar rules murkiness), so I believe for those cases, a definitive answer should be reached, and it is an answer that I believe the PDT can answer in a relatively simple and easy manner, with either a "No," or a "Yes, you treat it as X."
At its core, the question is as the thread states: "Can Tower Shields be made out of Metal? If so, how do I calculate the statistics of a Tower Shield made out of metal (or other material)?"
For those who don't particularly understand what the fuss is about, the argument that you can't make Tower Shields out of metal is two-fold, the first part being that there's no text explicitly allowing it in terms of the Tower Shield's description. The second half regards the weight increase of a Tower Shield being made out of metal being too large to be considered a realistic sort of item to use/purchase, though that argument can be made for something like Stoneplate, which weighs a whopping 75 pounds (the heaviest to-scale equipment item in the game).
However, the argument that you can make Tower Shields out of metal is quite simple: There are numerous items that, realistically speaking, if made out of metal, still function identical to their non-metal counterpart. Some common examples of this would be Axes, Staves, and so on. Being made out of metal gives slight mechanical edges that don't really increase the cost of the item according to how the rules are worded, such as improved hardness, the ability to be made out of special materials such as Adamantine, and so on.
There is also a precedent for a metal Tower Shield that is a hardcover published option, called the Force Tower (I only used the D20 site because I couldn't directly link to the SRD entry, the wording between the two sites is identical). That gives us an idea how a metal tower shield would be quantified in terms of effect, weight, and so on (as in half the weight of the original Tower Shield's weight, has a +4 Maximum Dexterity Bonus, reduced Arcane Spell Failure, etc).
However, it's dismissed as being a "unique item," in that its effects and such cannot be replicated for other items, to which point I personally ask how the item even exists in the first place if you can't even legally craft the item (because Mithril Tower Shields are apparently impossible to make), and the item cannot be found until it is crafted, which means the item can't ever exist in any shape or form.
So, between currently illegal published items, falsely created precedents, and multiple threads expressing confusion or intrigue behind this sort of subject, a FAQ should be made. If you would also like a definitive answer, please his the FAQ button on this post. Until a definitive answer is given, the thread will serve as a discussion hub for both posters and the PDT to mull over potential information or interpretations.
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I think the Material rules could use a revisit in a general capacity. Too many weapons have unclear material composition. We have spells that rely on specific types of normal wood, but no rules regarding that type of wood. And there are many items which are clear in what they are made of, but could very reasonably be created with other materials (like the Tower Shield example above or the Quarterstaff).
And additionally, the weapon composition matters for sunder, which is still using the "Metal hafted weapon" type descriptions to determine HP, which makes things further confusing since none of the weapons actually, specifically, reference this table.
And then we have rules to add HP and Hardness to magical weapons, but then we have certain weapons with additional rules (like the Mancatcher or lasso) which feature a confusing description which may or may not be affected by the additional HP and Hardness for magical enhancements.
But the topic is just Tower Shields, I suppose. Typically, this debate focuses on whether it is game breaking to have a mithril tower shield, for the purposes of increased max dex and armor check, as well as decreased arcane failure.
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I agree with Murdock that they could use a rewrite. I've had people say that a spear head cannot be made of adamantine or mithral because "that's not the majority of the weapon". Really? If that's the case, then arrows and crossbow bolts shouldn't be able to be made of special materials and yet they can.
In this instance, I think that a Tower Shield should be able to be made from mithral. If a Paizo created specific item can be crafted of mithral (with no other clear reason other than to make it lighter), then I see precedent indicating that they could. I could almost see an argument if the mithral was covering some other aspect of the item (e.g. Celestial Armor), then okay; however, what part of the special abilities of that shield would require it to be made of mithral? Absolutely none.
I agree that this is a good candidate for FAQ as I have seen numerous threads covering this topic with no good consensus.
I can't look up today, but isn't there a chart in Gamemastery Guide or Ultimate Campaign/Equipment that indicates what has metal or cloth etc?
Yeah, in Chapter 5 of the Gamemastery Guide, table 5-5: Random Shields, the special materials listed for Shield, tower is Wood.
I can't look up today, but isn't there a chart in Gamemastery Guide or Ultimate Campaign/Equipment that indicates what has metal or cloth etc?Yeah, in Chapter 5 of the Gamemastery Guide, table 5-5: Random Shields, the special materials listed for Shield, tower is Wood.
Interesting, didn't think the Gamemastery Guide would have information like that; which is ironic, since Ultimate Equipment should have that kind of information, and it doesn't.
It still doesn't explain why we have a table that tells us that only Wood can be applied, and then they publish an item that uses Metal as a material instead.
While this poses evidence to the factor that Force Tower is a unique item that betrays the typical laws of the game, I still think it's bad form to have it exist as such, especially if I was a player who wanted to craft this item (either from scratch or from altering an existing form) only to find out that I actually can't, because the item I want to craft from scratch or enhance can't ever come into existence in the first place. On top of that, nothing in the description explains how that is, which just adds to this sort of confusion. **EDIT** Seriously, it should be renamed to Schrodinger's Shield, where it both exists and doesn't exist at the same time.
There's also the concept that, because Ultimate Equipment was published after the Gamemastery Guide, that an item like Force Tower could be the result of unpublished "stealth-errata." That is, they might have originally published it as being made only of Wood, but reversed it (for whatever reason), created an item like Force Tower, and didn't update the Gamemastery Guide to reflect that design change.
Granted, that's a bit of a stretch, it's still a possibility, one that is certainly not ruled out yet, especially since we've had FAQs like the Courageous property that outright changed the fundamental function of said player option.
Ok so I'm on board now with Tower Shields can only be Wood, but Force Shield is Mithril and magically made to function like a Tower Shield.
Nothing supports the bolded part.
You can't have magic mimick special materials, especially when the description makes no indication of such.
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Ask your GM.
;)
Ask your GM.
;)
Tell that to PFS, and you'll see a bunch of angry faces.
That's why I made this thread.
Just curious, but where are the rules for metal-hafted axes and spears?
Ask your GM.
;)
Tell that to PFS, and you'll see a bunch of angry faces.
That's why I made this thread.
I saw that, hence the smiley face.
If this is supposed to be a thing more to do with PFS, can't you bring this up with the PFS team instead? It's entirely nonsencial for a tower shield to not be allowed to be metal outside of stringent rule environments like PFS. :/
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It's entirely nonsencial for a tower shield to not be allowed to be metal outside of stringent rule environments like PFS. :/
As is always brought up but often discounted, Wood weights significantly less than mithril. Making a shield big enough to provide cover out of mithril would weight a lot more than a wooden one. The magic could be considered to provide assistance to the weight aspect that a masterwork one could not.
Regarding the weight of wood versus metal. The item will only weigh more made from metal instead of wood if they are both made from an equal volume of said material.
Objects made from metal instead of wood can often have much less volume, yet still achieve greater levels of physical durability. So in theory a Steel Tower Shield might weigh the same or even less than a Wooden Tower Shield, while potentially having superior hardness as well.
Yeah, in Chapter 5 of the Gamemastery Guide, table 5-5: Random Shields, the special materials listed for Shield, tower is Wood.
That is a fairly explicit ruling. From a RAW perspective I'm satisfied with that answer. Thanks for the citation!
Interestingly though, that same table lists Buckler's as being Wood or Steel. Which is both news to me, and also contradicts their description in Ultimate Equipment (which describes them as being a metal shield). Also interestingly, Studded Leather is considered Metal for special materials, so you can have Mithril or Adamantine Studded Leather (but not Dragonhide) in addition to those materials which explicitly mention they can be made into studded leather (such as Angelskin, Darkleaf Cloth, and Eel Hide)
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Regarding the weight of wood versus metal. The item will only weigh more made from metal instead of wood if they are both made from an equal volume of said material.
Objects made from metal instead of wood can often have much less volume, yet still achieve greater levels of physical durability. So in theory a Steel Tower Shield might weigh the same or even less than a Wooden Tower Shield, while potentially having superior hardness as well.Yeah, in Chapter 5 of the Gamemastery Guide, table 5-5: Random Shields, the special materials listed for Shield, tower is Wood.That is a fairly explicit ruling. From a RAW perspective I'm satisfied with that answer. Thanks for the citation!
Interestingly though, that same table lists Buckler's as being Wood or Steel. Which is both news to me, and also contradicts their description in Ultimate Equipment (which describes them as being a metal shield). Also interestingly, Studded Leather is considered Metal for special materials, so you can have Mithril or Adamantine Studded Leather (but not Dragonhide) in addition to those materials which explicitly mention they can be made into studded leather (such as Angelskin, Darkleaf Cloth, and Eel Hide)
Part of the effect of a tower shield is its actual size, not only height and width, but thickness too.
Steel weight 7.5-8 times what wood weight. To have the same weight you need to reduce thickness by 7.5-8 times.So, let's look what happen.
Tower shield Hardness 5 Hit Points 20
Steel Tower shield Hardness1 10 Hit Points 20/(7.5*10)*30= 8 hp
(Wood has 10 hp for inch of tichness, Steel 30
No, it is not better if it is made of steel. It is worse.
Mithral 15 hardness hp 0/in. of thickness
It weight half of a equivalent item made of steel
Mithral Tower shield Hardness 15 Hit Points 20/(3.75*10)*30= 16 hp
A Mithral tower shield is better. But really pricey, as you need 22.5 lbs of Mithral.
And you still end with a shield that about 1/4th of the thickness of a normal tower shield. While it is not depicted in the game, a inch of wood soften blows a lot more than 1/8 of a inch of steel or 1/4 of a inch of mithral
BTW, that is part of the reason why axes, hatchets and so on had a wooden handle and not a steel one. Without a rubber grip steel tend to transmit the impact of your blows to your hand way more than wood.
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Wooden buckler: read the table.
Table 5-5 Random shields
Buckler Special Materials Wood, Shield (see table 5-7
Table 5-7 Shield special materials
Wood,steel: 01-90 Normal 91-95 Darkwood 96-100 Mithral
What is the end result?
Buckler, special material roll of 1-90 = normal.
What is normal? We default to the other rules.
Normal for a buckler is steel.
91-95 = Darkwood
So darkwood bucklers can exist. But not Bucklers made of normal wood.
Regarding the weight of wood versus metal. The item will only weigh more made from metal instead of wood if they are both made from an equal volume of said material.
Objects made from metal instead of wood can often have much less volume, yet still achieve greater levels of physical durability. So in theory a Steel Tower Shield might weigh the same or even less than a Wooden Tower Shield, while potentially having superior hardness as well.Yeah, in Chapter 5 of the Gamemastery Guide, table 5-5: Random Shields, the special materials listed for Shield, tower is Wood.That is a fairly explicit ruling. From a RAW perspective I'm satisfied with that answer. Thanks for the citation!
Interestingly though, that same table lists Buckler's as being Wood or Steel. Which is both news to me, and also contradicts their description in Ultimate Equipment (which describes them as being a metal shield). Also interestingly, Studded Leather is considered Metal for special materials, so you can have Mithril or Adamantine Studded Leather (but not Dragonhide) in addition to those materials which explicitly mention they can be made into studded leather (such as Angelskin, Darkleaf Cloth, and Eel Hide)
Part of the effect of a tower shield is its actual size, not only height and width, but thickness too.
Steel weight 7.5-8 times what wood weight. To have the same weight you need to reduce thickness by 7.5-8 times.So, let's look what happen.
Tower shield Hardness 5 Hit Points 20
Steel Tower shield Hardness1 10 Hit Points 20/(7.5*10)*30= 8 hp(Wood has 10 hp for inch of tichness, Steel 30
No, it is not better if it is made of steel. It is worse.
Mithral 15 hardness hp 0/in. of thickness
It weight half of a equivalent item made of steelMithral Tower shield Hardness 15 Hit Points 20/(3.75*10)*30= 16 hp
A Mithral tower shield is better. But really pricey, as you need 22.5 lbs of Mithral.
And you still end with a shield that...
Good lord, I cannot believe the amount of disregard for the rules we have in this post.
You're applying real-world calculations to a system that is A. Mostly abstract of such concepts, and B. Doesn't use accurate real-world concepts for whatever they do implement from the real-world (such as Gravity).
If we went with the idea that Steel is ~8 times the thickness (and by relation, weight) of a Wooden item, then items like a Light or Heavy Steel Shield would weigh just as much as if you were using a Tower Shield, or even wearing Stoneplate Armor. Steel would also have 8 times the hit points in comparison to their Wooden counterparts, assuming they're made of equal thickness.
But, if you compare the entries in the Armor tables, you'll notice that the weight, hardness, and hit point increase does not reflect the numerical value changes you presented, which means the developers did not factor the weight increases with real-world calculations, so your calculations are all meaningless here.
Also, Mithril Shields of any type default to a flat 1,000 gold increase, so you don't calculate the price based on weight like you would for items that aren't generally listed on Mithril's table cost.
It's entirely nonsencial for a tower shield to not be allowed to be metal outside of stringent rule environments like PFS. :/As is always brought up but often discounted, Wood weights significantly less than mithril. Making a shield big enough to provide cover out of mithril would weight a lot more than a wooden one. The magic could be considered to provide assistance to the weight aspect that a masterwork one could not.
Except the published Force Tower uses the standard weight of the Shield while being made out of metal, hence the Mithril component and the weight reduction (50%), when doubled, equals the standard Tower Shield weight.
We also don't have text stating it merely has Mithril qualities (such as in the case of Celestial Armor/Shields), but instead text that outright states it's made of Mithril.
Which, according to the Gamemastery Guide, is both illegal to craft from scratch (due to not being able to create a Mithril Tower Shield, the equipment that Force Tower is based off of) and impossible to find (due to the aforementioned reasons as stated prior).
You know, I'd think you of all people would understand that the item is either wrongfully published and therefore needs to be errata'd to a legal item (such as a Darkwood shield), or the rules from the Gamemastery Guide need an errata to reflect the implications of published items such as this.
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The things you are ignoring:
- Force Tower is a custom item and we have a long history of things like keen longbows as custom magic items. They have been confirm to deviate the rules in the past, noting tell us this isn't the same.
- Paizo often uses other books to highlight rules that need expanding such as taking multiple of the same feat Special line help, archetype stacking (iirc) in Occult Adventures. So ignoring the Game Mastery seems like ignoring the core to me.
No, it's not. The example you gave is something specific to an AP.
That specific AP item is not published in any core rulebooks, which is what makes it a "custom magic item."
Force Tower is not in any specific AP item (to my knowledge), and is published in a core rulebook, which means the idea that it "deviates from past rules" can't be right, because that item would still adhere to Core Rulebook rules, which Gamemastery Guide is one of.
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Good lord, I cannot believe the amount of disregard for the rules we have in this post.
You're applying real-world calculations to a system that is A. Mostly abstract of such concepts, and B. Doesn't use accurate real-world concepts for whatever they do implement from the real-world (such as Gravity).
If we went with the idea that Steel is ~8 times the thickness (and by relation, weight) of a Wooden item, then items like a Light or Heavy Steel Shield would weigh just as much as if you were using a Tower Shield, or even wearing Stoneplate Armor. Steel would also have 8 times the hit points in comparison to their Wooden counterparts, assuming they're made of equal thickness.
But, if you compare the entries in the Armor tables, you'll notice that the weight, hardness, and hit point increase does not reflect the numerical value changes you presented, which means the developers did not factor the weight increases with real-world calculations, so your calculations are all meaningless here.
Also, Mithril Shields of any type default to a flat 1,000 gold increase, so you don't calculate the price based on weight like you would for items that aren't generally listed on Mithril's table cost.
First. we don't have a rule to substitute not listed materials, so we should use RL measurements. I based my estimations with the aim of keeping the same weight. A reasonable choice, I think.
Second, what the *** are you saying with "If we went with the idea that Steel is ~8 times the thickness (and by relation, weight) of a Wooden item,"? Have you you read what I wrote? I am keeping the same weight, and that require us to reduce the thickness. You claim that I am doing the opposite.
Third. there is no rule about substituting mitrhrail for wood in a wooden item. So you can't say "Mithril Shields of any type default to a flat 1,000 gold increase" when the rules don't include at all the option of a Mithral tower shield.
A steel tower shield was presented in a 3.x splat book called Races of Stone.
Third. there is no rule about substituting mitrhrail for wood in a wooden item. So you can't say "Mithril Shields of any type default to a flat 1,000 gold increase" when the rules don't include at all the option of a Mithral tower shield.
Type of Mithral Item Item Cost Modifier
Light armor +1,000 gp
Medium armor +4,000 gp
Heavy armor +9,000 gp
Shield +1,000 gp
Good lord, I cannot believe the amount of disregard for the rules we have in this post.
You're applying real-world calculations to a system that is A. Mostly abstract of such concepts, and B. Doesn't use accurate real-world concepts for whatever they do implement from the real-world (such as Gravity).
If we went with the idea that Steel is ~8 times the thickness (and by relation, weight) of a Wooden item, then items like a Light or Heavy Steel Shield would weigh just as much as if you were using a Tower Shield, or even wearing Stoneplate Armor. Steel would also have 8 times the hit points in comparison to their Wooden counterparts, assuming they're made of equal thickness.
But, if you compare the entries in the Armor tables, you'll notice that the weight, hardness, and hit point increase does not reflect the numerical value changes you presented, which means the developers did not factor the weight increases with real-world calculations, so your calculations are all meaningless here.
Also, Mithril Shields of any type default to a flat 1,000 gold increase, so you don't calculate the price based on weight like you would for items that aren't generally listed on Mithril's table cost.
First. we don't have a rule to substitute not listed materials, so we should use RL measurements. I based my estimations with the aim of keeping the same weight. A reasonable choice, I think.
Second, what the *** are you saying with "If we went with the idea that Steel is ~8 times the thickness (and by relation, weight) of a Wooden item,"? Have you you read what I wrote? I am keeping the same weight, and that require us to reduce the thickness. You claim that I am doing the opposite.
Third. there is no rule about substituting mitrhrail for wood in a wooden item. So you can't say "Mithril Shields of any type default to a flat 1,000 gold increase" when the rules don't include at all the option of a Mithral tower shield.
Paizo didn't have a rule, yet they made Light and Heavy shields have Wooden and Steel variants, none of which add up to the calculations you presented, which means any real-world measurements in relation to determining wood and steel weight don't apply to this game. So, the "~8 times the weight" argument is factually disproven by published material in the Core Rulebook.
I did read what you wrote. You're trying to quantify the system of creating a metal Tower Shield by reducing the thickness of the item in an attempt to make the weight identical, when we have a published item that does the latter without doing the former, which means your calculations, even by adhering to real-world measurements, doesn't match what Paizo calculated.
There is no hard rule for it, hence why I made a FAQ thread, because I feel something like this should have a hard rule, especially when we have two sources of information that contradict each other with no indication as to why that is outside of (at-best) speculation.
The rules include the option of Mithril Shields. Tower Shields are Shields. Therefore, if a Mithril Tower Shield was possible, it'd use the Shield cost. Even without a FAQ, the rules would tell us this, and all you're doing is perpetuating Schrodinger's Tower Shield, where it is both a shield item and not a shield item at the same time.
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Third. there is no rule about substituting mitrhrail for wood in a wooden item. So you can't say "Mithril Shields of any type default to a flat 1,000 gold increase" when the rules don't include at all the option of a Mithral tower shield.Type of Mithral Item Item Cost Modifier
Light armor +1,000 gp
Medium armor +4,000 gp
Heavy armor +9,000 gp
Shield +1,000 gp
If the original material is wood, you can't replace it with metal, unless you have a specific rule saying toe opposite.
You can't have a Light wooden mithral shield. You can have a light Mithral 8former steel) shield.
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The rules include the option of Mithril Shields. Tower Shields are Shields. Therefore, if a Mithril Tower Shield was possible, it'd use the Shield cost. Even without a FAQ, the rules would tell us this, and all you're doing is perpetuating Schrodinger's Tower Shield, where it is both a shield item and not a shield item at the same time.
It is a [b]wooden[b] shield. By the rules, you can substitute steel or iron with mithral, not wood.
Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral.
So, a tower shield that is primarily made of wood (there is some metal rivets in it, probably) is in no way meaningfully affected by being made of metal.
If you want to pay 1,000 gp for no meaningful effect, do it.If you want to have a meaningful effect you need to follow a different route.
BTW, I love the hypocrisy of blasting someone for presenting a hypothesis based on RL arguments, when in you Op you said:
However, the argument that you can make Tower Shields out of metal is quite simple: There are numerous items that, realistically speaking, if made out of metal, still function identical to their non-metal counterpart.
Seriously you base your argument on RL and blast people for doing the same?
I suppose that coherency is for the others.|
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- Alchemist is a core class and has a ton of spells on their spell list by hardcovers that are spells alchemist can't cast as they don't target the caster, with the creator of the class saying something like "oops".
- Potions of Personal spells in many AP, modules, PFS scenarios.
- +1 gauntlet special items when gauntlets apparently can not be directly exchanted as well as feats that take weapon focus gauntlet as a prerequisite.
The moral of the story is things don't have to be consistent and a printing of a mightily tower shield doesn't mean that you can make mithril tower shields outside the scope of that one item.
The rules include the option of Mithril Shields. Tower Shields are Shields. Therefore, if a Mithril Tower Shield was possible, it'd use the Shield cost. Even without a FAQ, the rules would tell us this, and all you're doing is perpetuating Schrodinger's Tower Shield, where it is both a shield item and not a shield item at the same time.It is a [b]wooden[b] shield. By the rules, you can substitute steel or iron with mithral, not wood.
Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral.So, a tower shield that is primarily made of wood (there is some metal rivets in it, probably) is in no way meaningfully affected by being made of metal.
If you want to pay 1,000 gp for no meaningful effect, do it.If you want to have a meaningful effect you need to follow a different route.
BTW, I love the hypocrisy of blasting someone for presenting a hypothesis based on RL arguments, when in you Op you said:
However, the argument that you can make Tower Shields out of metal is quite simple: There are numerous items that, realistically speaking, if made out of metal, still function identical to their non-metal counterpart.Seriously you base your argument on RL and blast people for doing the same?
I suppose that coherency is for the others.
Still doesn't explain why there's a tower shield published in the RPG Rulebook line that explicitly states it's made out of a special metal (when it's not supposed to be). At best, it's a typo because they might have meant Darkwood, but then the pricing for the Force Tower doesn't reflect the cost of Darkwood, which means that's improbable. In either case, errata is needed.
Sure, it's hypocrisy...to the untrained eye. I "blasted" you for using real-world calculations when we have published material that betrays that concept, which means using real-world calculations to prove your point just simply doesn't work, because the example items we already have disprove those theories.
@ James Risner: Referring to the Alchemist Extract list to support the argument that the Force Tower is a unique item that cannot be replicated is both irrelevant and (possibly) a strawman.
Referring to APs (which largely contain illegal material that is not published in any RPG Rulebook product to-date) and PFS (which has their own set of rules and interpretations of existing rules) to support the argument that the Force Tower is a unique item that cannot be replicated doesn't make any sense because it has no correlation to the RPG Rulebook product line.
A quick cursory search of Ultimate Equipment in terms of Specific Magic Armor/Shields and Weapons only mentioned gauntlets once, in the Demon Armor entry, and only states they attack as if they were +1 weapons, dealing 1D10 damage, and apply a crappy Contagion spell on attack. But that's specific to the armor, and the item is not in and of itself a +1 Gauntlet, which means this is either made up or it exists in APs or PFS, neither of which are hard rules for the actual Pathfinder game.
Do you realize how silly you sound when you effectively say "You can't make Mithril Tower Shields except if you're creating a Force Tower, and it otherwise doesn't exist until the item is fully complete."? That's the most outrageous thing I've ever heard in regards to magic items that it makes 2,000 gold Constant True Strike rings sound more sane than what you just basically described.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Saying an example of a whole class that cast all spells as targeting themselves with spells that only target objects on their class spell list is a straw man isn't helping. It's an example of "some times rules conflict".
You don't seem to be interested in discussion, your mind is set and you seem unwilling to accept reasons why things are as they are.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Ultimate Equipment has the Collapsible Tower, a +2 heavy steel shield that can become a tower shield. Its only spell is shrink item. Does it become wooden when it expands?
Champions of Purity has the Equalizer Shield, a +1 mithral tower shield.
Food for thought: Hero Lab only lets wood or wood-replacement materials (like bone) be used for custom tower shields. Unofficial, yes, but usually a pretty good source for this sort of thing.
They both could be said to "use magic" to get to a metal tower shield.
As for Herolab, they have a back channel rules clarification method. For example they have had a number of big rules FAQ right before the FAQ due to that channel. A big example was courageous weapon property, where they had it implemented as the post FAQ way before the FAQ.
Saying an example of a whole class that cast all spells as targeting themselves with spells that only target objects on their class spell list is a straw man isn't helping. It's an example of "some times rules conflict".
You don't seem to be interested in discussion, your mind is set and you seem unwilling to accept reasons why things are as they are.
But it is a strawman (as far as I can tell). The issues with Extracts in relation to what spell effects can and can't be replicated is both not relevant to special materials on crafted items, and even if it somehow was, isn't really defensible towards the argument that I made.
The argument I make is that Force Tower is a published example of a Mithril Tower Shield that currently exists, but outright should not exist in the first place. GM Rednal posted another example (though it's not part of the RPG Rulebook line) that fully quantifies the properties of Mithril in relation to Tower Shields. And yet, apparently it's not legal, because Tower Shields, according to the Gamemastery Guide, can NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, BE MADE OUT OF ANY SORT OF SPECIAL METAL. No Mithril, no Adamantine, no Cold Iron, no Fire/Frost-Forged Steel, no Elysian Bronze, no Gold, no Living Steel, no Viridium...hell, anything that says it can be worked "like metal" is likewise not permitted in any instance that can possibly be conceived.
I (and the rules) don't care if you're the GM and houserule it to work, the fact of the matter is that you have to houserule it to make it work, which means you're not playing by the actual rules of the game. Which means according to you, Force Tower does not exist as an item, should never exist as an item, and therefore should be errata'd into a version that's actually workable (i.e. Darkwood).
Even with you stating that "they're special items," they're not AP-Specific like the Keen Longbow that was mentioned (which disregards and invents rules just for the AP anyway), they're generic items published in official hardcover rulebooks that can be adapted to any game or table, as is, with no changes to be made to it whatsoever, which means you're still left with the reality that Force Tower, as an item, should never have been published due to it being illegal to craft, and by relation, acquire, because as an item, it doesn't, and cannot, exist.
Also, I'm certainly interested in discussion. For example, I personally think that the Force Tower item's publication in Ultimate Equipment might serve as a precedent for "stealth-errata" in relation to the Gamemastery Guide's permittance of metallic tower shields, and that because Ultimate Equipment is the latest publication in relation to this matter that its application takes precedent (which means errata for the Gamemastery Guide should be reflected to accommodate this apparent change). I'm curious as to what makes you think that this isn't anything different from other means of them "stealth-errata"-ing this sort of option.
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NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, BE MADE OUT OF ANY SORT OF SPECIAL METAL
We literally have hundreds of FAQ that uphold specific over general. It's a founding philosophy of the game.
In general by the Gamemastery Guide, you can't make metal Tower Shields.
Specific items (including ones the GM says "rule 0"!) can deviate from this example.
It is a direct parallel to the Alchemist:
In general by the Alchemist class write up their spells effect only them.
Specific spells that effect only objects are added to their spell list and assumed to work as they work.
This has came up in the past many times and the responses have been "ug" and "that is an error".
So just because we have a +1 mitril tower shield, doesn't mean that isn't an error or an unique item. Would it be nice to have a response? Sure.
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Sorry but all of the example of Mithril shield given here are "named MAGIC object", not "generic object"... "Force Tower" and not "+1 Mithral Tower Shield", "Equalizer Shield" and not "+1 Mithral Tower Shield"...
The same for "Celestial Armor" and "Celestial Plate Armor", my players keep asking me if they can make other armor "Celestial" and how this will cost them... But you can't do this.. Celestial is not a valid option for all armor, it's unique armor set...
So are those Mithral Tower shield... It's unique, the guy who discover how to made them only discovered how to make those in a unique way, not in a generic way without magic... ;)
When magic is involved in an object creation you can't imply that it is valid for mundane object creation... The magic object creation process is totally different and never related to mundane object creation :p
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When magic is involved in an object creation you can't imply that it is valid for mundane object creation... The magic object creation process is totally different and never related to mundane object creation :p
The only issue there is that you HAVE to start off with the masterwork item before you can enchant it. Nothing in the magic item gives an exemption to this. So to make a Force Tower, you have to start with a normal mithral tower shield. If it's unique, then it doesn't have the creation rules added so someone can replicate it.
Look at artifacts: no creation rules or price: unique.
Now look at Force Tower: non-unique with creation costs and requirements.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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In an anti-magic field, with it's magical abilities surpressed, does it remain a tower shield?Ok so I'm on board now with Tower Shields can only be Wood, but Force Shield is Mithril and magically made to function like a Tower Shield.
No rules, so you just asked an "Ask your GM" question.
I'd say yes, but it's weight would increase and likely it's ACP.
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Still doesn't explain why there's a tower shield published in the RPG Rulebook line that explicitly states it's made out of a special metal (when it's not supposed to be). At best, it's a typo because they might have meant Darkwood, but then the pricing for the Force Tower doesn't reflect the cost of Darkwood, which means that's improbable. In either case, errata is needed.
Sure, it's hypocrisy...to the untrained eye. I "blasted" you for using real-world calculations when we have published material that betrays that concept, which means using real-world calculations to prove your point just simply doesn't work, because the example items we already have disprove those theories.
We have a specific magic shield, something that by definition don't follow the normal procedure for creating standard shields.
It is like saying "we have the elven chain mail, so elven half plate can be made".
Do you realize how silly you sound when you effectively say "You can't make Mithril Tower Shields except if you're creating a Force Tower, and it otherwise doesn't exist until the item is fully complete."? That's the most outrageous thing I've ever heard in regards to magic items that it makes 2,000 gold Constant True Strike rings sound more sane than what you just basically described.
By definition, specific magic items can be made only in the specific described form. Any magic item that use the specific item as a basis is but change it in some way is a houserule, totally dependent on GM fiat.
... they're generic items published in official hardcover ...
False. They are Specific Shields, like the Darkwood Buckler (it is in the CRB section about Specific shields, BTW).
Apparently you don't know the difference between "Armor Special Abilities" and "Specific Magic Armor and Shields".|
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Just for the record, calling this thing "a +1 mithral tower shield" is a bit disingenuous:
Equalizer ShieldAura strong abjuration; Slot shield; CL 12th; Weight 23 lbs.; Price 120,830 gp
DESCRIPTION
This massive shield is shined to a mirror finish and fitted with supple leather straps.
This +1 mithral tower shield displays no decoration or markings on its highly reflective surface. Once per day, the bearer of this shield can issue a challenge to a foe and ring the shield like a gong, resulting in a resonating blast that negates all magic in a 10-foot radius, as per antimagic field. This effect lasts for 1 minute.
It is another example of a very, very, very specific shield.
Regardless of its level of "specific"ness, in order to craft an Equalizer Shield, someone has to first successfully craft a Mithral Tower Shield. The text of the shield's construction requirements doesn't note that this item is an exception to base rules for making magical items.
Meaning that the rules as written are contradictory (and therefore need to be errata'd or FAQ'd for clarity), on the one hand we have indications that Tower Shields cannot be made from metal, yet on the other we have evidence that some have been.
Just for the record, calling this thing "a +1 mithral tower shield" is a bit disingenuous:
Equalizer ShieldAura strong abjuration; Slot shield; CL 12th; Weight 23 lbs.; Price 120,830 gp
DESCRIPTION
This massive shield is shined to a mirror finish and fitted with supple leather straps.
This +1 mithral tower shield displays no decoration or markings on its highly reflective surface. Once per day, the bearer of this shield can issue a challenge to a foe and ring the shield like a gong, resulting in a resonating blast that negates all magic in a 10-foot radius, as per antimagic field. This effect lasts for 1 minute.
It is another example of a very, very, very specific shield.
"a very, very, very specific shield" that players can make, as it has a cost and creation requirements. As it has NO exclusions, all creation requirements need to be met. That means you need a mithral tower shield BEFORE anyone can create that "very, very, very specific shield".
Or are you saying that if a magic item requires a material, like a darkwood heavy shield or a adamantine sword that you can ignore the base item in the creation rules? For instance, making a Lifecollar Coat and starting with a copper armored coat... If that's the case, I'd LOVE to see those rules as I haven't found them.
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Just for the record, calling this thing "a +1 mithral tower shield" is a bit disingenuous:
Equalizer ShieldAura strong abjuration; Slot shield; CL 12th; Weight 23 lbs.; Price 120,830 gp
DESCRIPTION
This massive shield is shined to a mirror finish and fitted with supple leather straps.
This +1 mithral tower shield displays no decoration or markings on its highly reflective surface. Once per day, the bearer of this shield can issue a challenge to a foe and ring the shield like a gong, resulting in a resonating blast that negates all magic in a 10-foot radius, as per antimagic field. This effect lasts for 1 minute.
It is another example of a very, very, very specific shield.
"a very, very, very specific shield" that players can make, as it has a cost and creation requirements. As it has NO exclusions, all creation requirements need to be met. That means you need a mithral tower shield BEFORE anyone can create that "very, very, very specific shield".
Or are you saying that if a magic item requires a material, like a darkwood heavy shield or a adamantine sword that you can ignore the base item in the creation rules? For instance, making a Lifecollar Coat and starting with a copper armored coat... If that's the case, I'd LOVE to see those rules as I haven't found them.
They are in the same location where you find the rules to make a "bright silver or gold +3 chainmail ... so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence" (celestial armor description).
Silver? No rule to make a silver armor.
Alchemical silver? No, it can't be used for armors.
Gold? Yes, you can use it for armor: "Gold can be fashioned into light or medium metal armor. The softness and the weight of the metal decrease the armor/shield bonus by 2, and increase the armor check penalty by 2. Gold armor has hardness 5. Magically strengthened gold is the equivalent of steel and can be made into any armor or weapon that can be made of steel." The only problem is that at best magically strengthened golds is the equivalent of steel, so the end product can't be "so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence" as steel can't do that.
So yes, there are several items in the manuals that can't be made if we don't assume that some kind of special process is followed while crafting it.
As the item exist and it can be made by the characters, we should assume that there is a way to make that special item and that it is sufficiently well know that a person with the needed prerequisite can make the item.
As there aren't "non magical" exemplars of the items, nor other versions of the items, we should assume that the process isn't sufficiently well know that it is possible to duplicate it outside of the currently know uses.
So, rule wise, you can have some specific, named, tower shield made of mithral as they exist in some rulebook, but you can't have a non magical tower shield made of mithral, nor a +1 mithral tower shield, as those can't be made.
Just for the record, calling this thing "a +1 mithral tower shield" is a bit disingenuous:
Equalizer ShieldAura strong abjuration; Slot shield; CL 12th; Weight 23 lbs.; Price 120,830 gp
DESCRIPTION
This massive shield is shined to a mirror finish and fitted with supple leather straps.
This +1 mithral tower shield displays no decoration or markings on its highly reflective surface. Once per day, the bearer of this shield can issue a challenge to a foe and ring the shield like a gong, resulting in a resonating blast that negates all magic in a 10-foot radius, as per antimagic field. This effect lasts for 1 minute.
It is another example of a very, very, very specific shield.
"a very, very, very specific shield" that players can make, as it has a cost and creation requirements. As it has NO exclusions, all creation requirements need to be met. That means you need a mithral tower shield BEFORE anyone can create that "very, very, very specific shield".
Or are you saying that if a magic item requires a material, like a darkwood heavy shield or a adamantine sword that you can ignore the base item in the creation rules? For instance, making a Lifecollar Coat and starting with a copper armored coat... If that's the case, I'd LOVE to see those rules as I haven't found them.
They are in the same location where you find the rules to make a "bright silver or gold +3 chainmail ... so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence" (celestial armor description).
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Hmm. I always took "silver or gold" to refer to the colors rather than the materials.