Shasf's page

@CraziFuzzy, Azothath, and Dave Justus

I will agree with you, the caster level determines the effects of the spell but it is not in and of itself an effect of the spell.

@Meirril
If you could provide a link to the list of excluded feats for the spell perfection feat, that would be most appreciative. Further inquiry for this argument however detracts from the original question of the title. Thank you.

As for the original question and intent of the thread, I would have to say that it has been answered and no longer needs to be addressed at this time. Thank you.

First, you can Empower any 7th level or lower spell. If the spell doesn't throw multiple dice it won't have any effect, but you can waste 2 spell levels on adding a Metamagical Feat to any spell if you want to.

False, with the magical lineage trait you can apply the empower metamagic feat to any 8th level or lower spell, albeit just one at a time until you retrain it.

Second, the 'variable' parts of the spell get a 50% increase. So you get an extra 50% of the dice and its mods. In this case, 1/2 times 1d4-2 because this is the part that variable. This part gets rolled and added to the caste level, not the entire caster level is a bonus to this dice roll! Even the +1 the Orange stone normally gives is outside of this roll because that is the way its stated.

And 50% more of 1 dice is...nothing. Fractions round down. This is the reason nobody empowers magic missile because it has no effect. It isn't a 5d4+5 blast of missiles, its 5 1d4+1 missiles.

The caster level increase is part of the spell when it’s cast. So only spontaneous casters would get the most benefit from the interaction if it worked as stated in the OP.

However a better example of a spell using the amount of work based on the caster level would be stone shape. The target of the spell: Target stone or stone object touched, up to 10 cu. ft. + 1 cu. ft./level.

If the OP question worked as mentioned the work done would be (CL)*1.5 or if you had spell perfection (CL)*2. If we look at the CL 20 example, the targeted amount affected by stone shape is now: (29 - 32 cubic feet)*(1.5 or 2 depending).

The target of stone shape is only affected by the caster level of the spell. Which the item combination has now made random.

And the last reason this won't work, is because the Wayfinder's resonance ability isn't part of the spell. It is triggered by attempting to cast a spell, but it is an item bonus that may very well cause you to fail casting spells that are on the edge of your ability to cast. This isn't a modification of the spell, but an item property that activates when you attempt to cast a spell. Claiming that Empowered should affect this is like claiming that an Empowered spell cast while you can roll 2d20 to hit and take the best result means you should roll 3d20 and take the best result instead when the multiple dice isn't from the spell you are casting in the first place, or that sneak attack dice added to spell damage should be Empowered at well. (yes, you can add sneak attack damage to a spell if you qualify to make a sneak attack. And those dice just get added to the end of any adjustments the spell would get. The sneak attack dice are only affected by things that affect the sneak attack dice)

The resonance ability affects the caster’s caster level. The caster level is then, as you say, needed to determine if you can cast the spell, which is why I used a level 20 caster as an example for the purpose of keeping the minimum caster level at 19, but that’s beside the point.

So to recap: unless the metamagic feat itself says the spell isn't a valid target, you can add it to any spell. Even if it does nothing. In this case, it will do nothing. Both because its not enough dice, and because its not part of the spell.

So now with prepared casters out of the running because they’d have to prepare the metamagic feat before the casting, the original question remains for spontaneous casters.

@Rajnish

I would agree with you, but the variable happens at the time of casting, and I also couldn't find an official ruling or another thread that had something similar.

As the title suggests, can we make a static variable into a random variable?

This is a thought experiment involving the empower metamagic feat, a wayfinder, an orange prism ioun stone, and the resonant power of the wayfinder ioun stone combination.

Constant Variables of a Spell not normally modified by the empower feat:
-----Caster Level
-----Range
-----Saving Throws
-----Opposed Rolls

Random variables of a spell normally modified by the empower feat:
-----Random damage (plus any bonus applied to them)

With the addition of the resonant bonus of the orange prism ioun stone in the wayfinder, the caster level becomes a random variable.

example: CL 20 + 1d4 -1 or CL 1d4+19.

Would this then qualify the caster level of the spell to be modified by the empower spell feat due to it now being a random variable? If so, then that means this combination allows the use of the empower feat on any spell because they now all have a random variable.

To reiterate the question:

Does the resonate power of the orange prism ioun stone in a wayfinder cause the caster level to become a random variable that can be modified by the empower metamagic feat?

A steel tower shield was presented in a 3.x splat book called Races of Stone.

Ah, found it.

Spell-Like Abilities: A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

and

Summon (sp): A creature with the summon ability can summon other specific creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell...

The Balor and any other monster for that matter, would take the 1 round casting time when summoning, unless otherwise noted.

SLA's have not really been updated since the creation of Spellbane, but based on their description... I would have to say they would be affected as if in an area where magic is suppressed or negated. For each specific spell of course.

Magic Jar: If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar. You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities. A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
You can't choose to activate the body's extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature's spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body.

...after some reading.. Vampires do indeed have souls, just like liches. Which means that Morin can magic jar creatures. Magic Jar vs Outsiders though, that's a tough one and has been debated many times. Outsiders for the most part are the physical manifestations of souls depending on which after-life they get. So I'll go with this, and say that Morin does take over the body, with the eremite as an unwilling passenger.

Still being an undead, I'd say that he should retain the weaknesses of the vampire template. If we rule it that way, the dragon's hit and run tactics would be more viable or it could even try to miracle a spellbane v. spellbane.

Just some extra thoughts on the matter.

Bump hoping that Shasf sees this.

If the cohort is the crafter, I see no reason as to why the WBL would not be increased for you. After all, the cohort and the Character are very good friends, and he's still getting paid for his work.

I would say that the crafter is making items at cost, buying materials as needed (such as scrolls for spell prereqs). Charging his good friend only 75% of the market value.

As for combat, that is up to the player. Is the risk of death worth it for the cohort to help is friend or should he hang back and be prepared to fetch the body of his fallen comrade if something goes wrong? I had a build that used Leadership to fight, forcing all combats to go into mass combat rules.

As for the new set of combat rules. Yes, I do think they could be used and possibly improved upon.

Jobrandon,

You have a good presentation. I'd like to know how the gate is still functional inside the portable hole?

The tactics with the Balor, let's say he summons (standard action for him) a Vrolikai demon and you get hit with on average 6 negative levels (gaze, enervate, and quickened enervate). What will he do to counter or prevent this from happening?

The tactics with the gold dragon might be a bit off, he would know what the Ermite is and is capable of. So, let's say the dragon wanted to do hit and run tactics using it's at will sunburst. It would draw out the fight to be sure and given the differences of the flight speed, what would Morin do?

I'm still looking over the build, but it seems solid so far.

Hmm.... if leadership is allowed. Then this can be done at level 15, with copious amounts of followers and cohorts. But, we'll go to level 20.

Class X 5 levels/Noble Scion 10 levels/Class Y 5 levels

With its "Greater Leadership" ability, you now have a cohort of equal level.

We now have countless Cohorts, Followers, and Servitors. With those we now have nigh-unlimited funds.

Everyone will have extended Delay Poison or Neutralize Poison cast upon them, since according to the Technology Guide, radiation is a poison effect. Copious amounts of Resist Energy and Protection from Energy as well.

Anyone that dies can be reincarnated or raised.

or

They all just cast Rebuke Technology. The "Legion" would have enough castings of the spell through scrolls or wands or personally casting the spell that the nuke assault will fail.

or

Using antitech field they can put themselves in the path of the nukes. They'll either detonate or fall harmlessly to the ground, either case. That'll be round one, during the nuke launches.

I have a request. I'd like to take this challenge but I want to face everything one-on-one. I don't think it's thematically fitting for there to be 2+ versions of the same monster in the same vicinity. How often do you run into a Shoggoth, let alone 8? In Porpentine's original Beastmass, he took everyone on alone. Now I'll admit that his rulings were questionable at times, but still, with this updated challenge, making a build that can take on Cthulhu by oneself should be the ultimate challenge. What's stopping me from creating a party with my character, a (freshly-updated and completely legal) Hexcrafter Magus, The Vaccuum, RAGELANCEPOUNCE and some sort of stupidly OP bard capable of buffing the crap out of his party members, each of us with Leadership and a Cohort? I don't think it fits the spirit of what the Beastmass was/is supposed to be.

`

It's still a work in progress. When the multiple enemies was suggested, it was more or less to make the enemies be more in line with a CR 20ish challenge or higher.

So in the spirit of the original Beastmass, the challenge is there. Present your build and tactics for the one on one fights in the locations where each monster will be found.

From the pfsrd for the trait:

Comprehensive Education: Humans raised with skilled teachers draw upon vast swathes of knowledge gained over centuries of civilization. They gain all Knowledge skills as class skills, and they gain a +1 racial bonus on skill checks for each Knowledge skill that they gain as a class skill from their class levels. This racial trait replaces skilled. Source PCS:ISR

What it does:

-For each knowledge skill granted by the class, the trait as written seems to give a cumulative +1 racial bonus on skill checks. (I say cumulative because of the wording in the ability: "for each")

That's exactly as it is written.

The bonus it gives is between 1 and 13.

What it should have done is allow the character the ability to make knowledge skill checks untrained and/or apply half the number of class knowledge skills (min +1/max +6) to knowledge skill checks.

As it is written, the ability is unbalanced from simply gaining an extra skill point.

As intended, it is still unbalanced but works out better if it just applies to knowledge skill checks.

Now, Shoggoth can be a pain to fight if you're unprepared.

But if the character's are optimized and chew through them pretty quickly it can be a bit boring. So I was thinking of making a unique one for a capstone villain.

There are a few things different with this one, such as the addition of SLAs and a few changes to feat selection. There have also been additions in the form of templates, the advanced and giant template. I was not sure how items and oozes interact, so it didn't receive any.

While robust, I still think it could be a challenge to a party of 18th - 20th level characters. Though the additional enemies may be necessary for the capstone fight, maybe advanced black puddings, advanced gibbering mouthers, or other shoggoth.

Would this be too much for an average optimized party of 4 by itself (think classic party; cleric, wizard, fighter, rogue or divine, arcane, barbarian, slayer)?

I was thinking of making the location be like Blackreach from Skyrim.. I think this link will help. (link is an screenshot from imigur and not my own).

It's a nice build, I've noticed a few things though:

In beastmass, average rolls will dominate.

With that in mind, the cloak of displacement (minor) will not really function, in actual play it may have some effect, for the challenge however, not so much.

The Dragon Divination sticks will more than likely give the bonus to Reflex saves (and they all pick the same save as per their description).

The monstrous physique spell only allows for monstrous humanoids and not magical beasts.

Find ways to negate surprise rounds. (The Variant Multiclass system in Unchanined looks interesting)

Looking through the build, you may want to find ways around energy drain and negative levels.

Unfortunately Shasf, Dragons do everything possible to stay out of melee range of a melee combatant. It was the Kensai's bane, having to deal with goldie for that very reason. I had to use a bait and switch with very, very calculated distances for my melee combatant to get close enough.

Yea, the only good news is, if it stops to buff after a single move action or use a breath weapon the fighter has a chance of catching it. Otherwise the fight with goldie is a loss even if I do switch to a ranged weapon (take off dragon bane from the scimitars; for wealth); the fighter would have a comp. lonbow (+1 str; +5 dragon bane, endless ammunition) just to attack it at range.

The other options available require close range, non-mobile means (orb of storms) or the use of leadership to gain a dragon (CR +8 to determine cohort level). Using leadership, I think the solar dragon looks interesting.

But it would be needed just for this one fight, just to get fighter close enough for melee range. While strafing it with arrows (ready action to shoot when goldie is about to cast a spell to disrupt his buffing abilities)

Other than those tactics, unless it's possible to have an Orb of Gold Dragonkind to provoke goldie into melee range it's a difficult fight as is with the fighter. The other abuse is to use the Antagonize feat with Intimidate to provoke him into making a melee attack (Intimidate DC 46; characters would need a minimum bonus of +36).

@Cap Darling: Thank you.

------------------------------

Any other suggestions of concerns would be appreciated.

Every time you Shapechange all of your gear melds into your new form including your weapons and armour. You need to account for the action economy of dropping any weapons and anything which you need to activate to use and then picking them back up.

You need to read the base polymorph rules in the Magic chapter.

Also Shapechange seems to be your one and only means of flight. If that gets dispelled then you spend the rest of the day ground bound and easy prey for pretty much anything.

When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. *snip*

Nothing about gear melding into giant or other humanoid forms. Unless there was an errata about that, then the shapechange is a bad route for this fighter.

However you were discussing for the elemental form. I'd rather have everything meld into the body for this, then when the fighter moved and then changes as a free action back into a form that can use the items, the items unmeld and he tries to take out the dragon. That's my assumption anyways.

@ElMustacho: Since they start 300 feet apart, Goldie would have to close the distance gap in some way before using the breath weapon (60ft cone).If he uses a greater dispel attempt against the fighter's shapechange ability (DC 31) versus his CL 15 (avg attempt 25), fails most of the time. The next item down the line would be the Linnorm's death curse If I'm reading this correctly. The next item down the line would be either be the +5 buckler or the +5 haramaki, due to the d20 results (3rd d20 results in a 9 as per the rules) goldie's dispel attempt results in a 24, one shy of dispelling.

I do agree, the fight with Goldie can go many different ways. If he stayed at range and just strafed with his at will sunburst ability, he might win.

If the dragon moves within 250 to use greater dispel magic and targets the elemental form from shapechange, then two move actions, failed attack, dragon does a full-round action to melee the fighter (deals 109 dmg on avg, fighter takes 30 less damage over all).

If the dragon took a run action, the fighter wouldn't be able to keep up. The fight is dependent upon getting the dragon into melee range for the fighter. If this never happens within the remaining 15 minutes of shapechange, then the fighter loses hands down.

@Cap. Darling: The fighter does have enough feat space to shift a few things around to continue to keep the item crafting feats and enough skill points left over to keep the [Craft] skills. After rereading the SLA faq, the illegal feat would be the arcane strike but we could replace it with hammer-the-gap instead to help keep the damage up and improve action economy (saves a swift action).

Arcane strike is a flat: +5 dmg for all attacks
Hammer the gap is dependent on successful attacks: +0/+1/+2/+3 and +4/+5/+6 = damage bonus increase between 0 to +21

Over all, if all attacks hit, hammer the gap deals +14 damage less than arcane strike. The fighter deals enough damage, but that little bit extra always helps.

Rough fighter build, has about 80k gold left over. Some of the fights could have gone either way; the ancient gold dragon fight especially. If the dragon would have survived the first assault, he would have tried to withdraw and come back buffed (Pin Down would have prevented that movement)

Not a very good trick over all, just winning initiative and beating creatures with a standard action for the most part.

No problem, if you have the 3.0 book "Stronghold Builder Handbook" I believe, it may help with some of the other issues.

Sorry, but the wording on Rapid Attack seems to follow the following logical parameter.

if(moveAction == true)
{
totalActions += fullAttack;
}

It permits a move action in addition to a move action, but does not turn your move action into a simultaneous move action and a full-attack.

Emphasis on combine a full-attack action with a single move.

As always, expect table variation.

Rereading the ability, I do agree with you. I've come to think of it as a modified pounce ability, but doesn't require charging the target. With the capstone ability removing the penalty of losing one attack.

Can we have a contingent action spell included within a contingency spell?

But that does look like a nice little buff.

I'm going to have to do another fighter build for this:

Mobile Fight Archetype:

We have one ability where we can full attack as a standard action and one with a move-action (-1 attack at highest bab).

Obviously a dex based build with two-weapon fighting tree for the concept. Normally we'd be getting: +20/+15/+10/+5; with two-weapon fighting tree we now have:

+18/+13/+8/+3 and +18/+13/+8 - add haste or speed weapons for one or two more attacks and we have a total of: 8 - 9 attacks a round, we can now double that with the mobile fighter archetype.

First, this fortress has anti-submarine measures in the form of ballistea, or rather huge size underwater crossbows. Problem is, I can't think of any spells, magical effects, substances, etc... to create an opening in the wall of a ship that keeps water out, air in, and allows projectiles through. Any thoughts?

Second, in the original, Juggernaunt constructs were placed at the tops of each tower with readied actions to cast force wall to block incoming projectiles. I can't seem to find any creatures with at-will forcewall. Besides scrolls and staves, are there any good ways to have a large supply of a single spell available?

Thanks guys!

The use of Air Bubble may work. Cast a permanent version on a spike or two in the arrow slits and it keeps water out while still allowing you to fire underwater.

There are also these other spells: cloak of winds mixed with calm air, water breathing.

But a modified Life Bubble may be the best bet for what you're looking for.

You could also use these for your crew.

For the other part of having force walls, planar binding might be an option if you want some of these hanging around.

Constructs, these might be something to consider and you could modify these
You could also modify Clockwork mages, cannon golems, and soulbound shells.

I have a submission building on the Legion setup Shasf provided. It utilizes a different approach to beastmass, and comes online at level 17.

** spoiler omitted **...

While interesting, let's get you a higher CL using ratfolk because of their swarming ability.

They start small -> reduce person, they are now tiny: That's 8 ratfolk a square -> Cast a communal fly spell or similar: You now have 16 ratfolk per square.

Even more absurd is that they now use their favored class bonus to increase the range of their scar hex. (albeit 20ft or so). That'll add in a few more.
x = ratfolk square
w = original witch

x
xwx
x

With a 5ft sphere we can have a total of: 7 squares -> 16 ratfolk a square (tiny sized occupies same square as witch) -> 132 ratfolks aiding the original witch.

Going from there, you may not need a very big space to get the desired effect.

The fight would last the same time. Given that I roll 22d6 (avg of 77) 14 times, for a total of 1078 of sneak attack, on average I would still deal 1078/4+349 = 618 damage. He's not dead but he's unconscious. If he somehow resisted all the sneak attack, then he will survive a round with 1 hp, how lucky. Blast shadows are nice, but Stalker could just do not care about the concealment and one-round them with 14 attacks.

The 1hp remaining could be a game changer, Pit Fiend escapes to heal (5ft step, greater teleport) comes back with a large bag of flour (or whatever else) to coat the room and possibly Stalker. Again, this is not likely. So the pit fiend does lose still.

Holy Vindicator causes bleed damage - albeit to himself.
use Celestial Obedience (Vildeis) to transfer any/all bleed effects from you to all enemies within 30 ft (no save).

So that's something I suppose.

...well, since there's no way you can actually get a scroll of Reach Mass Suffocate, that would be the first problem. Since the range is close you have an absolute maximum number of Legions who can be in range, it's not an infinite number, that's the second problem. Honestly, you're probably better off with an infinite number of archers crit-fishing.

Instead of suffocate, we could give them CL 20 scrolls of energy drain? On average each one would cause 5 negative levels. So they just need to land a few spells:

Shoggoth: 5 spells (avg of 11 Legionnaires needed)
Balor: 4 spells (avg of 22 Legionnaires needed; higher SR)
Pit Fiend: same as Balor
Tarn Linnorm: 5 spells (avg of 26 Legionnaires; higher SR)
Gold Dragon, Ancient: 6 spells (avg of 34 Legionnaires; higher SR)
Solar: 5 Spells (avg of 40 Legionnaires; highest SR)
Big T: Changing from Energy Drain to Flame Strike (cylinder spell; divine damage)

Avg result vs SR: 31 (fails on average; has only a 25% chance of succeeding). Finding ways to improve casting vs SR required. Elves, +2 vs SR, spell penetration +2 vs SR, greater spell penetration +2 vs SR.

New Avg vs SR: 31 - 10+20+6 = 36, we succeed 55% of the time.
Avg Dmg: 15d6 (52 dmg; 26 dmg divine) - Big T takes 13 Dmg per shot.
We need 42 successful hits on average to reduce Big T to 0hp and negative hp. Then we can use a scrolls of plane shift to remove Big T to the Elemental Plane of Water, Positive Energy Plane, or the Negative Energy Plane.

I submit another contender, Stalker.

** spoiler omitted **...

If you changed your celestial obedience to Tanagaar, you could get even more damage: +3d6 sneak attack and +2 per sneak attack die rolled. For a total of +28d6 plus 56 per hit instead of just the +22d6. That's an extra 77 average damage per hit. Spend 36k on scrolls of mind blank (assuming you take 1 day to level up each time).

However mundane methods of gathering information might still be valid/viable for the Pit Fiend. Up until the point it can no longer gather information on Stalker, what if it acquired a protective item with heavy fortification. While I still believe the fight would go to Stalker, it would just take longer is all.

Though during this time it's creating these with it's bought time. Still being defeated in the end, just thought of it adding a different twist to an old fight.

As for Thanos - Let's go with the pit fiend instead of the balor. How is he going to kill the devil? I'm rereading between the two builds, I will look again, but I'm not seeing how he's getting past the regeneration, besides beating him senseless.

Looking at the darkskull item engulfing his heart, if it is replacing the muscle, Thanos would have to be exceedingly cautious around anti-magic areas?

Okay, thank you for the reply.

It's just a little weird wording in the ability. Where is says other witch class abilities. So that is why I asked.

There is another class that modified the class features of a previously selected class.

I will admit that if spellcasting is increased twice with the winter witch prc, that would be extremely broken. The spirit of the wording does seem to imply that it is not meant for the spellcasting side of the witch, just the other special features.

Where as, the rule as it is written could be interpreted as that it counts twice. This does get me thinking that the ability could add to the free spells gained at each level for the witch however instead of increasing the actual CL or spells/day feature.

** spoiler omitted **

Also, I just realized something, can Summons be Spell Sundered? They can be dispelled, afterall, so if the Beastmass spellcasters attempt to Summon something...or does it work more as a "calling" effect when monster summon something?

Summon (Sp):

The monsters summon spells acts as summon monster spell. So based on that, you could possibly spell sunder them.

I haven't seen anything recent on the class ability in question -

Found here and the update and below

The class itself raises the caster level every level except the first one.

My rules questions are as thus:

If a class has access to spellcasting, is it a class feature or a separate ability for that class?

If spellcasting from a class is a class feature, does winter witchcraft also increase it as per the wording of the ability?

If spellcasting is a class ability, would it be treated separately from other features that the winter witchcraft ability modifies?

----------

I've seen more threads on the winter witchcraft ability focus on hexes than the spellcasting aspect.

Witch 5/Winter Witch 2 = CL 6 or
Witch 5/Winter Witch 2 = CL 8

is my question in a nut shell.

What you do is stuff that can happen in game not before game. Before the game start you have the resources the book says and not what ever you claim you could have made playing the roulette. It is fine that you think different, we can agree to disagree.

I see your point with that.

@ElMustacho - You may want to include more scrolls of divine favor since the duration is 10 rounds.

For combat, the creatures still might get a Perception check to notice the presence of an invisible creature.

The pit fiend also has foreknowledge of your character, what if it wished for a permanent anti-magic room and was waiting for your arrival? or the room to be in super-natural darkness?

Otherwise, I like the build and concept.

You dont need to go on. Your basic undestanding of what can be done with out DM Fiat seems to be so far from mine that in a wonder we can even communicate. Happy gaming.

I've already gone over the DM Fiat issue earlier. I have not seen any expansion upon your beliefs of what can or cannot be done with the rules given from the OP or from the Zen archer monk that inspired beastmass. I am sorry that you cannot communicate these concerns with me so I can address them in a more proper fashion. Happy gaming.

Actually, the Legion build might have a fatal flaw. If we assume a large but finite number of cohorts die before killing the monster... doesn't that mean the monster should get exp for them? It doesn't come up for the other builds because they don't use sacks of free exp as their method of attack. If the monster took levels in a spontaneous caster with healing we would have to plot rate of level gain vs damage done to see if the horde outdamages the healing the monster gains by killing so many of them. With allowances for fast healing, regeneration, etc. Keep in mind that every attack I'm aware of has a maximum range and therefore the space the "infinite" horde can occupy is very finite.

Actually, how does the horde hurt anything? Max level 12 casters, half their levels in 3/4 BAB, NPC wealth (the gold from Noble Scion is pocket change).

If monsters do gain EXP, they will get it at the end of the encounter and only up to a certain point. Their not really free sacks of xp, they are sacks of meat with exp attached. IF the monsters had class levels then their CR would increase, if it was high enough to out heal the damage done, they may not gain any xp at all or enough to advance to the next level.

The horde shifts its wealth to the ones actually fighting so while their numbers would be finite, their wealth would be great. As discussed in the resources and money of legion.

"After asking for aid (asking for 3,500) from good friends (diplomacy check 53 for a few weeks), the diplomacy for giving lengthy, complicated, dangerous aid with a +10 Cha mod would have a DC of 30 for helpful npcs. We will use the 100,032 number, getting a total of 325,104,000 gp. We’ll invest 1/3 of that in banking ventures because it’s the safest one with the best chance for average results. So we invest 108,368,000 and on average we will see a 2% return each year and for the first year we see 2,167,360 gp returned."

With that level of wealth, we now have a very well equipped horde - see one of legion build. Hmm, I suppose on the other side, Legion could bank roll the monsters and equip them.

Before I posted the fights I wanted to address the concerns with Legion's concept.

Shasf wrote:

@ Cap. Darling - But it's a made build, if you would like the other 100,031 builds, I will be happy to send them to your inbox.

There is nothing in the rules supporting most of the stuff you do with the character. Take out the gold he get from followers, (that is pehaps somthing you can do with a GM that is also your BF but it is not in the rules) and the miracle stuff. And make a proper example on how your army beat the Challenges.

The PC get PC wealth and the NPCs get NPC wealth. (All get the extra from the PCR of cause)
Doing what you do now, is just trolling. But you have been very civil so i will try to be the same:)

I hope this clears up some of the rules - for wealth and resources.

As for miracles not being able to grant templates, let's take a quick look at what miracles can do.

If any effect could not be duplicated by a spell of combination of spells, with or without metamagic, then I would say that the miracle fails. I have shown a combination of spells that simulate each template, so I will argue that the miracles for templates would be okay for this challenge, in actual games, only if the other players and the gm were okay with it and also being cheesy.

Magic item upgrades and custom magic items, slot changes are all covered in the numerous materials available on the srd as well as in the hard cover copies (or the pdf files).

if the question arises of how did you meet the entry requirements for the class - Special: Must have been granted noble rights, be part of the aristocracy, or have been born, married, or adopted into a noble family.

In the Sargava book, you can buy noble rights and become part of the aristocracy. There are also a few traits that give you a back story of being part of disgraced nobility or even being adopted into a noble family.

If there are any other concerns about rules not backing something up for Legion, I would like to know which areas are not being backed up by any rule so I can research and address them or send Legion packing.

On the topic of the "deaths" of the vrolikai and the balor at Bardicus' hands in the first scenario, I don't really think Rule of Cool is an acceptable basis for the Beastmass, it being heavily subjective and possibly abused.

I do agree with you. So I expanded the fight with the Balor having him summon the Vrolikai demon anyway.

Using the tree token during the fight would cause the balor and the other demon to be squeezing during the fight and giving the bard a slight increase to AC and Reflex saves (I will have to find that rule on trees and cover).

On average, Bardicus still wins in the end with a few more resources spent.

Can we combine legion with the coven and scar witch hex abilities for a near infinite caster level?

No, this would still be finite unless there is a way to transfer the bonuses granted by aid another along the chain to the primary caster. However it would be asburdly high if you use small sized humanoids and then used permanent reduce person on them. The caster level bonus would then be as high as the number of creatures in the area -1. Halflings may be best since they have feats to increase the bonuses granted with aid another actions.

@ Cap. Darling - But it's a made build, if you would like the other 100,031 builds, I will be happy to send them to your inbox.

@Roger Stonebow - I do agree with you, but it's showing off different tricks that characters can use in beastmass. Such as a high ac to not be hit, ways to deflect/dodge attacks that could hit, showing that martial characters can be just as viable as casters at higher levels (albeit more gear dependent), absurdly high initiative, among a few others.

So far Beastmass has seen:

zen archer monk - the reason for beastmass
Wizards who pump the save dc of one spell: ex, the vacuum (suffocate)
Magi with high crit chance weapons
Oracles that use dazing spells
summoners
a sorcerer who uses metamagic
a cross-classed gunslinger
A barbarian that use CAGEM tactics
a grappler build via tetori monk
a fighter who uses shield bash primarily
an inquisitor
a bard - the tarrasque fight is still going
legion - makes use of one class for high numbers - one of the only ways to get an infinite loop within pathfinder

a familiar - if there are all taken on all at once

I suppose the new challenge should be, what other tricks can be used in beastmass successfully?

For the cheese of an endless loop build, because of the Noble Scion prc. We ignore wealth restrictions, achieve stat increases through the use of miracle (young and advanced templates) - otherwise custom race.

As it was also requested of me to make a few more builds involving the noble scion prc, I can copy paste the same build multiple times and change a skill rank or a feat to represent diversity (however incredibly minute that diversity may be). [copy and paste for desired result].

The Build:

Trick 1: Just drain the enemy of HP - not efficient
Trick 2: High AC, almost every enemy has to roll a 17 or higher to hit, and even then the rogue has a chance to negate the hit
Trick 3: High touch AC for some off chance attack
Trick 4: Absurd Initiative and cannot be surprised (ring of continuation holding foresight)
Trick 5: For those really tough fights, the mirror of opposition

I guess these aren't even really tricks, just an overview.

This is meant to be a cheesy build, for fun. I'll run the numbers against the Beastmass and see what I can come up with for a nasty wish spell and other tactics to shut him down. Besides stating that he is way way over budget, money and other resources are not an issue to Legion, pooled collective and all.

This was my attempt at an updated Beastmass using the 4 Bestiaries.

A further update of beastmass took place Here as well.

And I do like the updated Solar fight that Mathwei ap Niall made for the challenge, just a few posts down from the previous link, but I'll link it anyway.

I have been working on an updated beasts that includes creatures from the other bestiaries, I'll provide a link later tonight.

Dhampir's are immune to the effects of negative levels because of their racial ability:

But can still be killed by having enough negative levels accumulated. Though with ignoring the effects of the negative levels it would be a lot easier to deal with them with the one resting period allowed in the challenge.

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As for the Balor's summon, for the harder fight - rule it as a standard action. For the easier fight - rule it as a 1 round action as per the summon monster spell.

i dont think the summon Spell like is a standart action. It claims to mimic a Spell with one round casting time.

There was a debate about that last year because of multiple wordings that were not updated.

on one hand from the combat actions section:

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)

Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. Spell-like abilities can be disrupted. If your concentration is broken, the attempt to use the ability fails, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability. The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise.

on the other hand from the Magic/Spells section:

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

[edit]

then from the universal monster rules:

A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A constant spell-like ability or one that can be used at will has no use limit; unless otherwise stated, a creature can only use a constant spell-like ability on itself. Reactivating a constant spell-like ability is a swift action. Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

bolded for emphasis.

Well, that's unfortunate. I'll have to go for Renewed life then. Even without Rage I should still be capable of making a DC 27 saving throw automatically, I think (+28 Fort rageless after a quick calculation in my head I think). At which point I can negate the negative levels immediately without too much hassle, and ignore the Vrollikai completely.

Well, assuming it works the way I think it does, anyway. Haven't had that much experience with negative levels, to be honest. It almost seems like if a horde of Vrolikai get the drop on you then you die with no possibility of a save, unless you're immune to negative energy.

Maybe I should scrap my Barbarian and go for a Martial Artist Monk instead? Immunity to a host of stuff is never bad afterall. Kinda boring though. Plus, no real way to attack opponents in the air.

Well... perhaps maybe with Shuriken... hmm...

EDIT: Ack, Renewed Life only works once per day, not once per rage. Plus it has 2 more prerequisites and I really don't want to give up anything else. Looks like there goes the Barbarian. Can't face tank everything I suppose. Especially if you don't get a save till 24 hours later. Plus, I don't really much care to optimize his AC at this point.

I guess we'll just be stuck with the same boring High-AC, rod of Abosrption guys for this challenge.

Your build can still be viable, you just need a way to negate the surprise round from the Balor or it can get some serious hurt in.

[edit]

Look into the quick block buckler and maybe a ring of continuation and a scroll of foresight if you can spare the skill points on Use Magic Device. The scroll itself will grant you 170 minutes of protection, the ring lets you have the buff for 24 hours though.

Well, it says "new" saving throw, and it mentions that the DC is the same as the effect's DC. That suggests that the original effect can be saved against when it happens, does it not?

The wording on said creature's ability is: "A vrolikai can manifest daggers made of crystallized black flames in each of its four hands as a free action. These weapons function as +1 daggers that bestow one permanent negative level on a successful hit. A DC 27 Fortitude negates the negative level, although on a critical hit, no save is allowed. The save DC is Charisma-based."

Do you mean to say that no saves are allowed until the following day? I find that somewhat hard to believe.

Some bad news, I did a little more digging on energy drain.

The Demon's ability does not specifically say that the target gets an initial saving throw. So that's 1 to 7 negative levels if the attacks hit.

This is from the special ability section of the corebook and the srd:

"A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels."

This can be taken a few ways:

1) You make the save against the negative levels at the start of the new day.
2) You make the save when it happens
3) You make the save on your turn

IF the save fails, then the temporary negative level, becomes permanent (this was taken out of Pathfinder from what I can see). Otherwise you keep making the save at the start of each new day to remove a negative level.

Whether or not the wording means for a single negative level per save or the total accumulated negative levels is up to you I suppose.

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If you go with the rod of absorption, remember it has to be in hand if you want it to negate targeted spells at you.

Weapon cords have been used in the past with it, but have since been nerfed a little bit by moving weapon cords from a swift action to a move action.

So that is doable.

Could he carry swashy in a portable hole or bag of holding before time stop, then ready an action to pull swashy out once time stop is about to end?

CWheezy wrote:

while it is nice your melee is high, what is your plan for actually getting next to most of them. They can beat you with spells

The plan is to Pounce with my 60 ft fly speed (90 ft w/ Boots of Haste). Thats 120 -180 ft of movement I can cover while still getting in my Full Attacks. Abjurations to keep me away can likely be Spell Sundered into oblivion.

I'll probably have to wield a Reach weapon to make the most use of Come and Get Me though, since most of them are large.

If you have any ideas on what spells I'll have to watch out for, by all means, please point them out. I enjoy trying to find what answers a Barbarian may have to an unoptimized caster.

The Balor fight might prove rather difficult for you if the SLA - Summon Monster is a standard action.

If it is a standard action - It may summon the Demon, Vrolikai. It is a nasty piece of work. IF your AC is terrible, it could do some serious damage. Not HP wise, but negative level wise.

Balor gets a surprise round - Summons the Demon, Vrolikai.
Demon, Vrolikai - With its full attack regiment - quickened enervate (avg 2 negative levels) - 7 attacks (7 negative levels, one attack will be a crit - negated unless helm of the jingasa has been used already)

Regular turn comes up: Barbarian has 9 negative levels in this scenario, all level dependent effects are reduced by 9 levels, making him almost effectively level 11. Does he destroy the Demon, Vrolikai or go after the Demon, Balor?

This is just one possible scenario that the Balor could do.

depending on your Barbs initiative, things could get messy if the Solar goes first detects the barbarian and then plane shifts to buff itself and return.

if the barb wins initiative, after the surprise round, the solar shouldn't be much of an issue.

It's the regeneration that the solar has that may be an issue or a minor inconvenience.

Are all the enemies in Beastmass Outsiders? If so, I'll probably replace that Guardian ability with Outsider-Bane. This should create an effective +9 enhancement with Furious being added in. That means that the boost from Courageous goes up by 1 to a +4 (no net loss in saves, for that matter). All other facets of said Barbarian would also receive a moderate boost.

Not all the enemies are outsiders.

Shoggoth: ooze

Balor: chaotic, evil outsider

Pit Fiend: lawful, evil outsider

Tarn Linnorm: dragon

Ancient Gold Dragon: dragon

Solar Angel: good outsider

Tarrasque: magical beast

A bane weapon would allow some minor extra damage and to hit and increase your enhancement bonus to +6 if using a +4 weapon to allow you to bypass epic DR

this is sad and misundestood in Many ways IMOP. There is not full build and there is nothing clever in suggesting you can take the advanced template with a micracle, that is just trolling in a thread like this. I am done with your attempt, your failed.

I was giving very strict readings, though feel free to extrapolate what you mean exactly.

If you're referring to my argument about buying items within a settlement, here is the link. I was giving a strict reading of item availability.

Again on item availability:

In a metropolis, you may have on average access to 7 major magical items, 10 medium magic items, all minor magic items with the 75% chance of a specific one with the cost of 16,000gp or less.

Currently, there are only a handful of ways around this limitation of purchasing power. One such way is available to rogues: Black Market Connections.

Loosening my reading of adept-woodwrights posts of GM adjudication and the OPs outline of what is available to the contestants. Because now we see that medium and major magic items requires a fair degree of GM adjudication, they shouldn't be available choices for characters.

So characters have only a very limited selection of items to choose from now if they are purchasing them and not crafting the item themselves. Unless they have access to abilities that allow them greater allowances.

I will also point out, that it is never stated where characters are acquiring their items. If people are crafting their own items, where are they getting the crafting materials. I will assume, that the assumptions were that characters just have access to the items no questions asked. Until now, where are they getting their items exactly?

------------------

To address the miracle spell, in addition to it duplicating spell effects we have:

Adding a template or two would be within the realm of powerful requests. It is also better than wish, because miracle does not have this wording:

"You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)"

Nothing clever, just a straight forward power increase that is full of cheese. What's even cheesier is that if it is mentioned that an entity can be raised to deity status through having enough people worshiping them, then Legion can become even greater cheese.

The preliminary showing of Legion was just that, showing a few of the different possibilities that could be within Legion. Those lists were before the ARG and ACG came out.

As for a full build I am working on one using a rogue as a base class:

This build will be getting even cheesier with nidalese shadow piercings, magical tattoos, and of course making slotted items into slotless items since wealth is of no object what with all the donations. We now even have access to super technology.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time getting around an infinite number of followers being a build to be considered. That to me isn't a build. That is an army and not valid in my opinion.

Still within the rules that the OP gave however.

As mentioned before, anything that paizo publishes or published for pathfinder is fair game.

To address Adept_woodwright and is premise for stand-alone: "refer to a concept that does not require outside influence to be successful."

It is GM discretion of what items are found in random loot, what is available to purchase. Strictly speaking of course. Well yes, the books have it, but the entire game requires outside influence (aka the GM), to function. Even if someone tries playing the game by themselves, they are the GM and thus their own outside influence determining what happens and what may happen in their game.

Correct me if I am wrong on this.

So you have basically a character with 880,000 gp that they cannot spend because whatever items the character wishes to buy, may not be available due to the fact that item availability is subject to GM adjudication.

This is an very strict reading of your point.

Yes, I present a limitless combo-loop for wealth, bodies, and other resources. Is it viable, yes. Is it reasonable, no. Will it ever be in a PFS game, never. Does it look good on paper, yes but very tedious.

This is a preliminary of Legion:

There are a great deal of combinations of classes that can be made. Some combinations may be more viable than others, but within Legion they work together.

For cheese, let's select Azlanti Humans for everything great about humans plus the +2 to all ability scores. Changing a 1st level feat to qualify for any race related prerequisite.

Throw on two miracles for two templates in this order: Young template, then the Advanced template.

So all the modifiers together come out to be:
Str +2, Dex +10, Con +2, Int +6, Wis +6, Cha +6; +2 natural armor

Miracles are better for templates because they encompass a broader spectrum of uses, just select the deity/belief system needed for desired results.

Here are the end modifiers for the ability scores, with out level adjustments; this includes the big 6 for items and the ability books:

Str +13, Dex +20, Con +13, Int +17, Wis +17, Cha +17

Legion isn't for everyone, it's sole purpose is a thought experiment for making a limitless loop.

If that isn't enough cheese, throw in a reduce person spell to make them tiny and into a swarm.

As long as Paizo keeps publishing material for Pathfinder: Legion will continue to grow that much more versatile.

Again, Legion is a thought experiment. Not something for actual play, just like this challenge.

So here is my challenge: can any of you build a 20th level character of any class, race and archetype combo to triumph over these seven beasts with only one rest period?

Builds must be 20 point buy but can include any feat, spell, item, trait etc from anything published by Paizo.

Builds should be as descriptively full as possible as per the linked example.

These are the fight rules regarding dice rolls

Quote:
Fight Rules : no one flees for good - the pride of classdom and the Bestiary are at stake. Single d20s always result in 10, multiple d20s (like full attacks) go 10-11-9, 10-9-11, and repeat. Threats kick in when the percentages from hits (not misses) build up to 60% within or over rounds (eg. 12 basic /20x2 hits would offer one threat and confirmation). Strictly mathematically speaking, multiple 20x2 threats don’t produce exact 5% threat chances, apparently, but for a game guide I reckon a flat 5% per pip will do. If there’s a decisive close call I’ll flag it. Rough but simple.
End Quote

That may be the assumption, but Legion is still within the rules of the contest. Since the OP did request the builds use: Builds must be 20 point buy but can include any feat, spell, item, trait etc from anything published by Paizo.

Since any feat combo can be used: Leadership and its effects are viable.
Since any class combo can be used: Noble Scion and all of its class abilities are viable.

Now with the other rule about race combo and published material by paizo, we can add in Mythic ranks, custom races and classes because of the race build rules found in the ARG and the class building guidelines found in the ACG.

--------------------------------

When Adept_Woodwright mentions Stand-Alone builds, I believe the post means that a single Player Character with no one or thing else that tags along.

If this is true, then the OP means that while any combination is viable, we cannot allow things like npcs into the mix. NPCs include animal companions, summoned monsters, called monsters, eidolons, npc classes, non-player characters with pc classes, and such.

Some of these are gained by class abilities however and can be argued to be PC controlled. Less work for the DM.

Given that assumption, I would like to know exactly what stand alone means now.

Yes but the rule you get to ignore is, in my reading, that you usually have to be two levels above your cohort. The leadership table is still there you still have a leadership score and the highest level cohort you can recruit is still level 17. Those rules are not changed with the PC. I realize you are reading this differently, but that is my point you are reading a lot of rules in the best possible way.
I realize you will never have time to make a full build but if you get to make the 20+ cohorts that will take out one of the monsters i will be happy to comment:)

Ah, so you read it as not adjusting the table itself, just what level of cohort you have access to and never going past the table.

The way I read it as adjusting the table to allow up to the same level of PC.

In either case, Legion itself comes online at level 15. So starting at level 15 and up to a max of level 17 in your reading. Legion becomes limitless.

In my reading, we can have limitless level 20s.

Either way, Legion is still limitless as far as leadership is concerned.

exept you wont. Because by the time you have made a endless number of cohorts we will all have died of old age;)

Any way your plan basically take some rules very litterally and ignore others(like cohort max level being 17 on the leadership table) and assume a very high level of GM love.

Greater Leadership (Ex)

At 2nd level, a noble scion gains the Leadership feat as a bonus feat. He can recruit a cohort up to one level lower than himself. At 10th level, he can recruit a cohort of the same level as himself.

I didn't know I was ignoring the rules for leadership when this clearly spelled it out. Sorry for the facetious remark, but that is why we take the noble scion class so we have have cohorts the same level as the "PC"

As for GM love, all the builds presented in this thought exercise that is Beastmass, require a high level of it. You know, random loot, selling said loot, making loot, so on and so forth.

I dont undestand. If you loose a cohort do you get instant replacement?

Edit: anyway what you present is a loophole that is unplayable, not a build.

Depending on how people wish to rule it, yes. Because Legion is Legion and talking is a free action, recruitment can be "Hey, want to join up with us?" -- "Sure." --- chain is reconnected.

Did I also mention that due to the Noble Scion's level 19 servitor (lvl 19 npc guy) - Legion now has even more wealth?

Base Legion - 880,000 gp
Noble Scion - 41,250 gp
Servitor - 159,000 gp

Now since Legion is recruiting his Cohorts - They will have PC level wealth because Legion does not recruit anyone less. The cohorts that have npc level wealth become servitors instead.

Legion's followers (168 per Cohort) donates money to the group.

So, Legion now has an unlimited source of income, bodies, and other resources that we can use to build the character.

So now that we have wealth established among other things, Legion's main "PC" does not have to be present during any battle, as per the fight rules. However I will make a mock up of one to show off this extra cheese 12 cheese wheel of cheese.