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You can't enhance something you can't make.
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You can't enhance something you can't make.
Got a rule for that?
The only thing you need to make an Equalizer Shield is:
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, antimagic field; Price 60,930 gp
Just like the only thing you need to make Boots of Speed is:
Craft Wondrous Item, haste; Cost 6,000 gp.
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To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled.?
Magic armor != Named Magic Armor.
If you make +1 Full Plate you need Masterwork Full Plate.
If you make "special armor like celetial" you take the "pieces" which might be gold and might be silver. In the case of a Equalizer Shield, it might be chunks of mithril.
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Following up on this, in Herolab they reject the concept of making a +1 Elven Chain because that is a named item and they can't be directly modified.
If you can't make +1 Elven Chain (named -> magic named), then you can't make +1 Mitril Tower Shield (magic named -> named).
Aura no aura (non-magical); CL —; Weight 20 lbs.; Price 5,150 gp
DESCRIPTIONThis extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links. This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 20%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +4, and an armor check penalty of –2.
To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled.?Magic armor != Named Magic Armor.
If you make +1 Full Plate you need Masterwork Full Plate.
If you make "special armor like celetial" you take the "pieces" which might be gold and might be silver. In the case of a Equalizer Shield, it might be chunks of mithril.
So you're saying that the rules don't require either mithral or a suit of full plate to make a set of Mithral Full Plate of Speed? You just need Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste and a pile of cash worth 18,500 gp???
Following up on this, in Herolab they reject the concept of making a +1 Elven Chain because that is a named item and they can't be directly modified.
The core rules don't agree. "Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place." Being named armor isn't a listed as restricting or limiting this. If it's meant to, we should have an FAQ. errata or something. I don't find 'herolab doesn't allow it' as very compelling without seeing some kind of validation from someone at pathfinder.
Also note that 3.5 disallowed named armors/weapons in it's rules but pathfinder removed it. Seems odd if they actually intended us to follow it...
EDIT: Also note that PFS has it's own FAQ on this and it too doesn't agree with herolab. The example James gave was Elven Chain and the FAQ notes "Non-magic specific armor and specific weapons may be upgraded normally" and as such PFS allows magic +1 elven chain. ;)
I don't see anything in the rules that suggests that creation rules for specific weapons and armor differs from the rules for creating "generic" pieces.
The only thing that seems to be different is that the specific ones have abilities/qualities not listed under the regular special abilities list.
I don't see anything in the rules that suggests that creation rules for specific weapons and armor differs from the rules for creating "generic" pieces.
The only thing that seems to be different is that the specific ones have abilities/qualities not listed under the regular special abilities list.
So what do you need to make an Elven Chainmail ? A Chainmail and an Elf ? :D
What about a celestial armor ? Do you need a chainmail ? an Elven Chainmail ?For a celestial Plate armor ?
I'm ok with making a generic masterwork armor to +1, you need the armor and the magic to do that... But you can't make a generic masterwork chainmail you bought into a celestial armor or an ELven Chainmail... to make a celestial armor you need to go from scratch wit raw material, go magic and boom a celestail or an elven chainmail... easy :p
How to make a +1 celestial armor ? (hint : you can't :p ) A celestial armor is +3 and only +3... you can't go +4 or +5...
Edit : I forgot... a Darkwood Buckler cost 203GP, per the rules if you take a buckler and make it darkwood it should cost 205GP : Buckler 5GP, Masterwork 150GP, Buckler weight lb so 50GP... But no you gain 2GP for making the specific item Darkwood Buckler...
You can't enhance something you can't make.Got a rule for that?
The only thing you need to make an Equalizer Shield is:
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, antimagic field; Price 60,930 gpJust like the only thing you need to make Boots of Speed is:
Craft Wondrous Item, haste; Cost 6,000 gp.
You still can't make it because you're requiring making something that, by the rules, you just cannot create.
If you're telling me Mithril Tower Shields are impossible, then a specific magic item that is listed as a Mithril Tower Shield is still impossible.
Until you can prove that Force Tower is a specific AP item that (for whatever reason) was converted as a generic specific magic item for use at any table, you're effectively saying I can create the +1 Keen Longbow from the one AP you mentioned, but not any other version (even adjusting it to a +2) of that item.
I don't see anything in the rules that suggests that creation rules for specific weapons and armor differs from the rules for creating "generic" pieces.
The only thing that seems to be different is that the specific ones have abilities/qualities not listed under the regular special abilities list.
So what do you need to make an Elven Chainmail ? A Chainmail and an Elf ? :D
What about a celestial armor ? Do you need a chainmail ? an Elven Chainmail ?
For a celestial Plate armor ?I'm ok with making a generic masterwork armor to +1, you need the armor and the magic to do that... But you can't make a generic masterwork chainmail you bought into a celestial armor or an ELven Chainmail... to make a celestial armor you need to go from scratch wit raw material, go magic and boom a celestail or an elven chainmail... easy :p
How to make a +1 celestial armor ? (hint : you can't :p ) A celestial armor is +3 and only +3... you can't go +4 or +5...Edit : I forgot... a Darkwood Buckler cost 203GP, per the rules if you take a buckler and make it darkwood it should cost 205GP : Buckler 5GP, Masterwork 150GP, Buckler weight lb so 50GP... But no you gain 2GP for making the specific item Darkwood Buckler...
All the magical ones among the items you mention have construction requirements. As per the rules, you start with a masterwork version of the mentioned base item, and you 'magic' it into the end result. That's how crafting magic armor works and nothing in the rules contradicts that for specific items.
For celestial armor, you start with a masterwork chainmail. As it is a specific armor, there are no rules to make other armor types "celestial", nor are there rules to enchant it further (or less).
The non-magical ones are straightforward as well. You need enough of the appropriate material, the tools to work it and usually a whole lot of successful Craft: armor checks.
The Darkwood Buckler is a problem item in its own right, by the way. Not just because of the pricing discrepancy, the real stinger is in the fact that it's actually a light wooden shield.
As for the Force Tower: it's very plain in the rules that you need a mithral tower shield as the base item. But tower shields can't be made out of that material because they'd be too heavy and unwieldy, I would imagine. (Which stops making sense when you consider the ridiculously high strength scores one may achieve.) So how can this Force Tower be made at all?
I'd say you get yourself a mithral facsimile of a tower shield, scaled 1:1, an item that unfortunately can't be used as a tower shield (even if your strength is 50). Then you 'magic' it into a Force Tower and Bob's your uncle. The magic lets you use it now, and it probably lost some weight too. It's a bit of a stretch of the rules, but I don't actually see much of a problem with the idea of making a tower shield out of any shapable material. You can make one out of wax as far as I'm concerned. It's a simple physical act. The problem is in using it as an effective tower shield.
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So you're saying that the rules don't require either mithral or a suit of full plate to make a set of Mithral Full Plate of Speed?
Also note that PFS has it's own FAQ on this and it too doesn't agree with herolab. The example James gave was Elven Chain and the FAQ notes "Non-magic specific armor and specific weapons may be upgraded normally" and as such PFS allows magic +1 elven chain. ;)
I guess this is very nuanced.
No, I'm saying because Mithril Full Plate exists as a core item and can be made, you need it.
There is no core item of Celestial Armor, so you just need the cash and your GM tells you the bits and pieces that cash is used to buy. Same for other named item with components that don't exist.
Do I believe the authors of those mithril tower shields items felt the mithril tower shield was a real item? Sure, that is highly likely. But if they believed they exist, it doesn't change the core item.
Nice find on the PFS allowing +1 elven chain. I hated the response I got from Herolab of "in communication with Pazio we believe you can not magically enhance those". I'll reopen a ticket again so everyone can stop using the community created elven chain that can be.
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I'd say you get yourself a mithral facsimile of a tower shield, scaled 1:1, an item that unfortunately can't be used as a tower shield (even if your strength is 50). Then you 'magic' it into a Force Tower and Bob's your uncle. The magic lets you use it now, and it probably lost some weight too
+1 effectively 100% of what I'm saying.
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Tower shields are normally made out of wood. Anything else would be unusual... but *magic*.
You want to have a tower shield fashioned out of super strong cardboard? Magic can do that. Metal reduced in weight so it is manageable? Magic can do that too. Et cetera.
Now, you want a non-wood tower shield without any sort of magic? That's going to be tough... until someone in the game world invents plastic.