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I do wonder how a pair of shield slammers with combat reflexes could use this though.... could they actually juggle a foe indefinitely?That's what I mentioned above. I agree the trip against the wall is the best part. Trip them against a wall on your first attack then demo them with the rest of your attacks while their AC is lowered. If other party members are close you lowered the target's AC for all of their attacks as well. If you can 5 foot step do so and avoid the return full attack. Barring reach, monkey style etc. etc. as I mentioned above.Actual quote from a satisfied customer:
"'Farrukh is brutal fighter, mercenary. If scenario hits red levels, may be possible to turn him against own side. Simple form, but complicated fighting style makes impractical for switchup.' A newer note here reads, 'Do not get between Al'Khatel and wall.'"
Unfortunately, he didn't follow his own advice.
The best best part is that it's not a free Trip. It's an automatic prone result if they hit an obstacle. There's no roll.
Also, until you can qualify for the Shield Master feat (11th level), your shield needs to be double-enchanted as armor and a weapon. The Bashing property seems like a good deal at first, but you're capped at a +1 bonus. Paying the +450 to create a masterwork weapon/armor shield and enchanting both aspects lets you keep building the attack bonus up as you gain the resources to do so. You can free up a feat this way too.
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I was looking at a pet+warrior build at one point, where they would coordinate as:
Pet: move up, attack
Warrior: charging Shield Slam, Greater Bullrush, Pack Attack
Pet: Paired Opporunists AoO, Pack Attack
Warrior: Paired Opportunists AoO
Maybe with an Eldritch Guardian or something. Maybe TWF with a nasty weapon and shield.
UnArcaneElection, you almost sound as if you wrote a guide on the magus class :P (I did the section on Kensai magus, although I haven't updated it in forever).
Actually, here's the Magus guide, and just from getting the URL, I see that it has actually been updated extremely recently, so I am going to have to check it again soon. (Also, discussion thread for the Magus guide.)
That said, I wouldn't mind some guides specific to weird archetypes such as the Eldritch Scion (no guide seems to exist), Myrmidarch (a guide exists, but is extremely out of date despite having been re-hosted relatively recently), Skirnir (no guide seems to exist). Also wouldn't mind seeing an update to the Hexcrafter guide and the Kensai guide (I assume this is the one you were talking about), although these are not nearly as in need of updates as the ones I linked before.
My hesitancy with Skirnir would be how late everything comes online. Shield Slam requires BaB 6, which delays it to level 8 if using retraining, 10 if not.
You can use your 9th level character feat to get it, so only 1 level later than if using retraining (assuming single-class Magus build, and even VMC doesn't eat your 9th level character feat, and Shield Slam and its prerequisites do not require Fighter Training).
I do like skirnir, but it always striked me as a late game magus archetype (> lvl 8). I'm currently planning a PFS character.
I know, I should try to come up with a more PFS-suitable build (although a level cap of 12 is really harsh).
A better option (IMO) would be a 3 level dip into some other magus archetype, and then switch into something else (perhaps slayer for early access to shield slam). Pick up the wand wielder arcana, and then true strike + shield slam all day long.
This could work (except if you're going to dip 3 levels, you might as well dip 4 levels to get 2nd level spells without hurting your BAB any further).
Alternatively (but only if not in PFS), go VMC Magus and get the Wand Wielder Magus Arcana, and you could even use this to have a Wand of True Strike in your shield (cast Weaponwand(*)) and a Wand of something offensive in your normal weapon (cast Weaponwand another time(*)) to use Spellstrike with, when you eventually get this. If your primary class is Fighter or Warpriest (maybe even Ranger, or Slayer with Ranger Combat Style), you will get enough bonus feats so that consuming feats for the VMC isn't too painful.
(*)You might also want a Wand of Weaponwand to make this easier.
* * * * * * * *
Also, in my last post, I misread the duration of Arcane Redoubt (and its greater version) -- eats Arcane Pool points too fast, because it lasts only 1 round. If you're going to eat Arcane Pool points that fast, use Arcane Accuracy instead, although burning through Arcane Pool points that fast is really going to hurt on a Skirnir Magus, who is already burning through them at double speed; Extra Arcane Pool would help with this, but only gives you 2 points per rank of this feat, so it isn't very efficient.
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So I worked up a comparable-level Barbarian who combined Shield Slam with the "Come and Get Me" rage power, such that he could use the Shield Bash on the attacks of opportunity that were triggered by his opponent trying to whack him. The AoO would, of course, not get any of the iterative penalties, and he could smack away melee attackers into a position where they couldn't reach him any more once the AoO was resolved. Then he'd follow that up with a pounce and pound on the enemy in close quarters, then bash him away again when his opponent tried to retaliate.
Wow that's a great idea. I may have to steal it. ;)
I've been having a pretty good time with Shield Slam for around 13 levels now. That's with a Mythic Viking, but even if my PC took penalties for Power Attack I think I'd probably hit enemy CMD most of the time, and a regular Fighter would probably have some extra bonuses from Weapon Training. One of the best moments of the campaign was my PC teaming up with my girlfriend's to Shield Slam an ettin off a cliff to his (or their?) death.
The Come and Get Me trick can certainly be effective, but bouncing enemies off walls and obstacles to render them prone has been my bread and butter for a long while. For some reason I didn't think of Greater Bull Rush + Paired Opportunists until I was almost done selecting feats, but since the DM just agreed to allow Combat Stamina as a feat my Shield Slam will now become an almost free disarm, reposition, sunder, or trip attempt (just 2 stamina points - quite cheap). I'm looking forward to knocking a humanoid foe prone and then disarming him or knocking somebody's weapon out of their hand with an AoO before they can finish their attack.
@BadBird - Paired Opportunists is great. The PC above actually has Shield Wall too. It might seem like a waste, but with a Ring of Tactical Precision we're getting +3 AC and +5 to hit on AoOs.
I know....that in theory..this i the optimal way to do shield bashing...but g@*##+n if 2 shields isn't the most singularly stupid looking aesthetic for your fighter to have.So, I did some theory crafting, and I stand corrected. A slayer 6, Weapon Master 3, Barbarian 1 can throw out some good damage using shields and bull rushes.
** spoiler omitted **...
It would look roughly like this
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It would look roughly like thisI know....that in theory..this i the optimal way to do shield bashing...but g@*##+n if 2 shields isn't the most singularly stupid looking aesthetic for your fighter to have.So, I did some theory crafting, and I stand corrected. A slayer 6, Weapon Master 3, Barbarian 1 can throw out some good damage using shields and bull rushes.
** spoiler omitted **...
Like i said.
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I know its fantasy and all but... I still can't help but emit a quiet groan when I see dual-shielding pics. It's sort of like seeing some SCA type trying to demonstrate 'dual wielding' in real life; they may think they look like some kind of anime in action or god knows what, but from the observer's perspective... "first as tragedy, then as farce".
Revised Tank Skirnir Magus build using Shield Slam -- attempted to make it PFS-compatible, including coming online faster.
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Dual-wielding shields is really the only cool way to dual-wield. It's historically accurate; we know people used this fighting style in the past. It has a very poetic theme to it, too—imagine why someone might choose to fight only with defensive items. It creates some very striking visuals that are entirely distinct from the edgelord "dual-wielded swords" look, so I don't really understand people who conflate the two.
It really is its own distinct look (admittedly, that last one is a poser with swords, and it's also basically the most Dumb Fantasy Shtick I've seen in a while)).
The second image in particular catches my interest. Note the shape dual-wielding shields creates. We're talking about two concave plates on either side, and so the barbarian becomes a very rounded form, very protective, very huddled to himself. A lot of the appeal of dual-wielding comes from the "dance" that it inevitably implies—fighting with two weapons implies a lot of rotation, a lot of circular motion. With shields, that dance becomes less vicious and more defensive.
I hear many people complain about the dual shields as being "powergamey", as being a shameless attempt to pander to rules optimization over flavor. James Jacobs himself has complained about it, I believe. But that really strikes me as a sign of inflexibility in how we imagine the fantasy warrior. Dual-wielded shields are their own unique kind of awesome, and offer a sort of distinctive roleplaying flavor we find elsewhere only in improvised weapons warriors and that one knife guy from The Magnificent Seven.
Particularly since shield/shield (barring Shield Master, which comes in VERY late for most characters) has no advantages over weapon/weapon or weapon/shield to speak of, and multiple disadvantages to that same style (lower damage die, lower critical threat and multiplier, less options for damage type, and increased cost of adding weapon+weapon costs on top of a shield enhancement cost).
And since people have talked about dual shield characters since before Shield Master came along (I believe I remember seeing old posts on the GITP forums about it for characters in 3.5, for instance)...the cries of "But power game" are dubious, to say the least.
On any kind of 'realism' level, shields are, in general, heavy, cumbersome, slow weapons with basically zero reach or leverage of force. Fighting with two would just compound all those problems, because 'dual-wield' already has inherent reach/form problems. Don't get me wrong, 'because: fantasy' is a 100% valid justification for stuff, but... 'cool and historically accurate'?
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Yeah, people have already linked historical examples in other threads. We've also heard from martial artists who experimented with the style and found it fairly effective against some kinds of fighters. As arguments go, this is well-trod ground.
Eh... I am Jack's viscous skepticism. I'll generally take by example what the vast, vast majority of people who had to live and die by their effectiveness in battle did over esoteric examples and experimentation by... 'enthusiasts'.
Okay, so I trust all of your characters prefer to use spears? ;)
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Actually, as long as we're going this far, I should probably just insist all your characters be gunslingers. ;D
Okay, so I trust all of your characters prefer to use spears? ;)
Actually, as long as we're going this far, I should probably just insist all your characters be gunslingers. ;D
If all my characters were limited in weapon-choice by technology/cost/training, then I guess they would have to use spears, wouldn't they? When people had the option to fight with other weapons, they tended to - though they still fought with spears when it was advantageous. Along those lines, if we're talking 'modern firearms' then...
Really though, it's two separate issues. "Fantasy, because: fantasy" is just fine. Nobody has to be historically accurate, and I'm hardly a stickler for it. Just don't try to sell me on dual-shields being cool or more than historical-footnote at best, 'cause I ain't buying.
The exact same can be said for two weapon fighting of almost any stripe.
Yep. No argument there. Even things like 'rapier-and-dagger' aren't really TWF in the way these games depict them - "two weapons for double the attacks!". Whatever the problems are with 'dual-wield' RE: physics, though, it's not nearly as uphill a battle as fighting with an awkward, heavy object strapped to each arm.
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My experience with Shield Slam has been pretty positive. Used it on a enemy NPC I threw at the party's Paladin. The Paladin had a habit of splattering most things in one round thanks to Mythic Vital Strike, and I wanted an opponent that could give him a bit more of an actual "duel".
So I worked up a comparable-level Barbarian who combined Shield Slam with the "Come and Get Me" rage power, such that he could use the Shield Bash on the attacks of opportunity that were triggered by his opponent trying to whack him. The AoO would, of course, not get any of the iterative penalties, and he could smack away melee attackers into a position where they couldn't reach him any more once the AoO was resolved. Then he'd follow that up with a pounce and pound on the enemy in close quarters, then bash him away again when his opponent tried to retaliate.
Seemed to work pretty well; by the time the Paladin realized that his best bet was to go for his backup reach weapon in order to effectively attack, he was already in a pretty tight spot damage-wise, and he actually got KOed, though the rest of the party was able to turn the overall encounter around and rescue him.
KNOCKBACK RAGE POWER AM GOOD IDEA FOR BARBARIANS WITHOUT LANCE FOR SAME BASIC REASON, BUT THIS AM ABLE TO BE USED EVERY ATTACK, ALL ROUNDS, NO MATTER HOW MANY ENEMIES, UNTIL AM OUT OF AOOS, AND NOT REQUIRE RAGE CYCLE.
BARBARIAN AM IN APPROVEMENT.
Just don't try to sell me on dual-shields being cool or more than historical-footnote at best, 'cause I ain't buying.
Well, in that case, you're attacking a strawman. I never said dual-shields were a big historical deal, but as a fighting style, they're pretty much on the same level as TWF, skinny little rapier dueling, unarmed combat, and, really, most melee weapons (spears were favored for a reason—they were basically the best option 75% of the time).
I pointed out that they were historically accurate because they are. It's a real fighting style that people have used, and it can be very effective when used by someone who knows what they're doing.
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Alternatively, if you are like me, dual shields have an appeal because you are picking up two large slabs of metal and smashing them in your enemies face until they fall down.
It is quite possibly the most viking way to fight.
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I never said dual-shields were a big historical deal, but as a fighting style, they're pretty much on the same level as TWF, skinny little rapier dueling, unarmed combat, and, really, most melee weapons.
Saying that 'dual-shield' is even remotely as prevalent in the historical record or martial arts practice as fighting with two weapons (?) - or dueling with rapiers (?!) - or really most weapons (?!!) - seems a bit of an odd statement; but maybe it's just me.
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I never said dual-shields were a big historical deal, but as a fighting style, they're pretty much on the same level as TWF, skinny little rapier dueling, unarmed combat, and, really, most melee weapons.Saying that 'dual-shield' is even remotely as prevalent in the historical record or martial arts practice as fighting with two weapons (?) - or dueling with rapiers (?!) - or really most weapons (?!!) - seems a bit of an odd statement; but maybe it's just me.
Two-weapon fighting and fencing with rapiers were actually very much fringe. What we now call rapiers were normally reserved to "gentlefolk's duels" rather than real, serious warfare, and two-weapon fighting was quite uncommon.
By the way, cutting out parenthetical qualifiers in a quote is arguing in bad faith.
EDIT: An important distinction—"what we now call rapiers" is very distinct from what rapiers historically were.
I never said dual-shields were a big historical deal, but as a fighting style, they're pretty much on the same level as TWF, skinny little rapier dueling, unarmed combat, and, really, most melee weapons.Saying that 'dual-shield' is even remotely as prevalent in the historical record or martial arts practice as fighting with two weapons (?) - or dueling with rapiers (?!) - or really most weapons (?!!) - seems a bit of an odd statement; but maybe it's just me.Two-weapon fighting and fencing with rapiers were actually very much fringe. What we now call rapiers were normally reserved to "gentlefolk's duels" rather than real, serious warfare, and two-weapon fighting was quite uncommon.
By the way, cutting out parenthetical qualifiers in a quote is arguing in bad faith.
No bad faith intended, I thought it was just a digression. It didn't change the nature of the statement, even if it was intended to explain it.
I'm reasonably well aware of how common/uncommon various weapons and styles were in various places and times, at least to the extend that the historical record can shed light on things. You can find far more historical evidence and/or martial arts literature relating to any of those other things than for 'dual-shield', and I mean by orders of magnitude. Even times and places that spawned extremely aggressive experimentation and development of wide ranges of weapons and styles, such as Warring States China or Late Medieval Europe, don't really bring up much regarding two shields.
Landing the free bull rush isn't the problem. The problem is that it pushes the target out of attack range.
Bull rush allows you to move with the target
** spoiler omitted **
On first glance, the feat looks amazing. A -free- bull rush attempt with every attack! But then you realize: Combat Maneuvers are hard to land. And then you also realize: You use the original attack roll instead of a combat maneuver roll.
This sucks. At level 10, average monster AC is around 24 (as per the bestiary). Players have looked at the average CMD and found it to be at around 32. Hitting with an offhand attack is pretty good, but planning on using the same attack roll to score 8 points higher is really asking a lot.
The odds of Shield Slam succeeding is akin to threatening a critical hit.
At 10th level a martial class can be hitting AC 24 only missing on 1. They could hit with 9 or better on the free bulls rush. Not that bad for free attack really. Still I never though this feat was great just feat in the chain.
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I'm reasonably well aware of how common/uncommon various weapons and styles were in various places and times, at least to the extend that the historical record can shed light on things. You can find far more historical evidence and/or martial arts literature relating to any of those other things than for 'dual-shield', and I mean by orders of magnitude. Even times and places that spawned extremely aggressive experimentation and development of wide ranges of weapons and styles, such as Warring States China or Late Medieval Europe, don't really bring up much regarding two shields.
Or hand crossbows, for that matter. Or using unarmed combat in real warfare. Or shooting bows in close combat. Or Flurry of blows with shurikens, videogame style.
I think his point is that the style existed, and being cool or not is a matter of taste.
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I'm reasonably well aware of how common/uncommon various weapons and styles were in various places and times, at least to the extend that the historical record can shed light on things. You can find far more historical evidence and/or martial arts literature relating to any of those other things than for 'dual-shield', and I mean by orders of magnitude. Even times and places that spawned extremely aggressive experimentation and development of wide ranges of weapons and styles, such as Warring States China or Late Medieval Europe, don't really bring up much regarding two shields.
Or hand crossbows, for that matter. Or using unarmed combat in real warfare. Or shooting bows in close combat. Or Flurry of blows with shurikens, videogame style.
I think his point is that the style existed, and being cool or not is a matter of taste.
...and my point was more that there's a huge difference between 'it existed' (or at least, it exists now) and something that's common or at least well-documented across the historical record, like rapier-use or wielding two weapons or whatever.
Indeed, all of those modes of combat you mentioned like hand crossbows and such are pretty much in the same boat; dubious historically, and often a little absurd. Whether they're 'cool' or not is indeed a matter of taste, and all I said was that it sure isn't to mine.
There could have been some advantages to "dual-shielding" with my Viking, but when I look at TV, artwork, Amon Amarth videos, etc that look just wouldn't fit in with what my Viking is emulating. I originally drilled a hole in the mini's non-shield hand which could accept a variety of weapons with a pin on the handle, but a hammer accidentally got glued in there, so I've spent 19 levels with heavy shield and light hammer - yeah, that's two 1d4 weapons with a /20x2 crit (until the DM gave me some funky artifact hammer with bigger damage dice just this level)
Aesthetics aside, if you're going to go with two shields it might be nice to make at least one of them the sort you can throw so that you're not completely without ranged attack options. I suppose TWF with Shield Slam could give you a lot of bull rush attempts and maybe some other maneuvers if Combat Stamina is in play. I've also thought of a mostly Unchained Rogue build who fights with two spiked shields or klar-like weapons.
@gustavo iglesias - I guess that being cool or not really is a matter of taste, but if I made up a PC who is a circus clown who fights with a string of sausages or perhaps by throwing water balloons I wouldn't expect most folks to accept it as "cool" even if I did. Like - cool is a matter of taste, but other people's taste might matter too depending on the situation?
Or hand crossbows, for that matter. Or using unarmed combat in real warfare. Or shooting bows in close combat. Or Flurry of blows with shurikens, videogame style.
I think his point is that the style existed, and being cool or not is a matter of taste.
That doesn't look like Shield Bashing to me
That doesn't look like Shield Bashing to meOr hand crossbows, for that matter. Or using unarmed combat in real warfare. Or shooting bows in close combat. Or Flurry of blows with shurikens, videogame style.
I think his point is that the style existed, and being cool or not is a matter of taste.
That's because he didn't hit anything. It was a demonstration of form.
That's because he didn't hit anything. It was a demonstration of form.That doesn't look like Shield Bashing to meOr hand crossbows, for that matter. Or using unarmed combat in real warfare. Or shooting bows in close combat. Or Flurry of blows with shurikens, videogame style.
I think his point is that the style existed, and being cool or not is a matter of taste.
That looks a lot more like an exotic eastern weapon with the blocking trait than a pair of kite shields.
Klars are shields that do slashing damage, statted up in the game. Just sayin'.
Klars are shields that do slashing damage, statted up in the game. Just sayin'.
Actually, I think dual-klar is a big improvement style-wise if you're gonna do some kind of dual-shield, since they're actually designed to strike.
On an unrelated note, I've long been used to Shield Master being read as "while you are wielding another type of weapon". And if anyone feels inclined to cry 'houserule!', do consider what a RAW reading of Shield Master actually says.
Yes, but if you move then you can't make a full attack.Landing the free bull rush isn't the problem. The problem is that it pushes the target out of attack range.Bull rush allows you to move with the target
No.
Bullrush explicitly states you can move with the target.
Full attack states no more than a 5ft step during a sequence.
Shield slam explicitly states you can move with your target if you have a move action or can make a 5ft. step.
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Yes, but if you move then you can't make a full attack.No.
Shield slam explicitly states you can move with your target if you have a move action or can make a 5ft. step.
You say 'No', but then don't explain how it would work.
Shield Slam/Bull Rush 1: Target knocked back 5'
Attacker takes 5' step to follow
Shield Slam/Bull Rush 2: Target knocked back 10'
Attacker cannot take 5' step, take a move action, or reach the target to attack again
So, again... it is not possible, barring some additional ability, to combine shield slam full attacks with the movement required to follow the target(s) struck. You can do one or the other. Not both.
That's because he didn't hit anything. It was a demonstration of form.That doesn't look like Shield Bashing to meOr hand crossbows, for that matter. Or using unarmed combat in real warfare. Or shooting bows in close combat. Or Flurry of blows with shurikens, videogame style.
I think his point is that the style existed, and being cool or not is a matter of taste.
He clearli hits with the edge of the shield or thrusts the points instead of hitting with the blunt surface that is a bash
He clearli hits with the edge of the shield or thrusts the points instead of hitting with the blunt surface that is a bashThat's because he didn't hit anything. It was a demonstration of form.That doesn't look like Shield Bashing to meOr hand crossbows, for that matter. Or using unarmed combat in real warfare. Or shooting bows in close combat. Or Flurry of blows with shurikens, videogame style.
I think his point is that the style existed, and being cool or not is a matter of taste.
On top of which they clearly specify sharpened edges, Exotic eastern weapon with the blocking trait.
Yes, but if you move then you can't make a full attack.No.
Shield slam explicitly states you can move with your target if you have a move action or can make a 5ft. step.
You say 'No', but then don't explain how it would work.
Shield Slam/Bull Rush 1: Target knocked back 5'
Attacker takes 5' step to follow
Shield Slam/Bull Rush 2: Target knocked back 10'
Attacker cannot take 5' step, take a move action, or reach the target to attack againSo, again... it is not possible, barring some additional ability, to combine shield slam full attacks with the movement required to follow the target(s) struck. You can do one or the other. Not both.
Youre not reading the feat.
It says you move with the target trading one of two actions.
It says nothing of move limitations outside of with target. You bash 15ft you move 15ft with the 5ft move you have available. If the action is not you dont.
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how does bashing cap you at a +1 bonus?
Bashing is a defensive enchantment for a shield. It says "This shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash."
Bashing takes the place of a normal defensive enchantment that would otherwise add to AC. You can't make it any higher than a +1 weapon enchantment this way.In order to boost your attack roll with a shield via standard magical enchantment, the shield needs to be enchanted as a weapon, requiring a 300gp initial investment for a masterwork shield-as-weapon and the use of the magical weapon enchantment prices (2k, 8k, 18k, etc.)
If you're going to be a shield slammer, 'double enchanting' your primary shield is smart. It can get very expensive though.
For instance, a heavy steel shield that has a +2 AC enchantment as well as a +2 weapon enchantment would cost 12,470gp
It's a good idea to make it adamantine too (+3000gp).