Shield Slam is a not as good as many may think


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Lantern Lodge

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Shield Slam:
Shield Slam wrote:
Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.

On first glance, the feat looks amazing. A -free- bull rush attempt with every attack! But then you realize: Combat Maneuvers are hard to land. And then you also realize: You use the original attack roll instead of a combat maneuver roll.

This sucks. At level 10, average monster AC is around 24 (as per the bestiary). Players have looked at the average CMD and found it to be at around 32. Hitting with an offhand attack is pretty good, but planning on using the same attack roll to score 8 points higher is really asking a lot.

The odds of Shield Slam succeeding is akin to threatening a critical hit.

Silver Crusade

Not really, hitting stuff is kinda what Martials are good at.


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

This kind of thing is a prime example of tactics that shouldn't be hidden behind a feat. Anybody should be able to do an effective shield bash straight out of the box, and the bull rush effect should be easier to pull off than actually dealing damage, not the opposite.

If we were to re-write the Pathfinder combat system, I think there would be a lot of feats that should become standard combat options.


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Landing the free bull rush isn't the problem. The problem is that it pushes the target out of attack range.

Silver Crusade

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You can already shield bash with no investment. Improved Shield Bash just lets you keep the AC bonus when you attack with your shield.

Silver Crusade

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Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Landing the free bull rush isn't the problem. The problem is that it pushes the target out of attack range.

That's why you use it in areas with no OSHA compliance :3


Shield Slam means that you need zero investment in Bull Rush (because it wouldn't help anyways) to try to knock back a shield bash target. It's a single feat that works on its own to give you a free combat maneuver with every attack that it registers. How good do you want it to be? If you're bashing away at a pack of mooks, you may well send a few flying. You're probably not going to shield slam the dragon reliably for a feat.

If you really scheme at it, you can set-up some very powerful hits; and maybe combo them with teamwork feats or something. I just wish this feat gave you a bonus to the Bullrush for Power Attacking, instead of a penalty.


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FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

On first glance, the feat looks amazing. A -free- bull rush attempt with every attack! But then you realize: Combat Maneuvers are hard to land. And then you also realize: You use the original attack roll instead of a combat maneuver roll.

This sucks. At level 10, average monster AC is around 24 (as per the bestiary). Players have looked at the average CMD and found it to be at around 32. Hitting with an offhand attack is pretty good, but planning on using the same attack roll to score 8 points higher is really asking a lot.

The odds of Shield Slam succeeding is akin to threatening a critical hit.

Level 10 martial?

10 BAB
+5 stat

With no other shenanagins (weapon focus shield) coming into play you have a 20% chance (vs CMD 32) to bull rush an enemy with a free attack that provokes no attack of opportunity.

It's not like the attempt costs you anything.


is bull rush used every time? ofc not.
size limit, out or reach issue etc.
is it effective at times? my god, yes.

1. unlike what is written above, take greater bull rush. +4 and the fact ALL YOUR allies get a free AOO.
2. knock a rider of a mount
3. use with pit spells - to push into them
4. push into a wall and prone the foe.

like trip, grapple and more - maneuvers are there to spice combats and do great things - at times.

now doing a free bull rush is really nice - as it cost no action and all get a free AOO - to pull more attacks in.


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A few points.

Shield slam is not really meant for off hand fighting but main hand use.

Second shirld slam is one of few ways to get weapon bonuses to bullrush for minimum investment. It enhances the use of weapon mastery and weapon feats.

Third you can follow a pushed target with the bullrush. Meaning during a full attack.

Beyond that its a matter of knowingbyour situation. Pushing to compromise positioning, break bad positioning orbopen the frontbline are all good uses.

Lastly keep in mind shield slam is a preteq to the amazing shield mastery.


If you're investing enough to get shield slam, then you'd be following it up with the right gear, like the Leveraging weapon property on your shield from the Weapon Master's handbook


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666bender wrote:

is bull rush used every time? ofc not.

size limit, out or reach issue etc.
is it effective at times? my god, yes.

1. unlike what is written above, take greater bull rush. +4 and the fact ALL YOUR allies get a free AOO.
2. knock a rider of a mount
3. use with pit spells - to push into them
4. push into a wall and prone the foe.

like trip, grapple and more - maneuvers are there to spice combats and do great things - at times.

now doing a free bull rush is really nice - as it cost no action and all get a free AOO - to pull more attacks in.

The issue is that you're not making a bull rush attempt, so you don't get the +4 or any other CMB boosting stuff. It's your attack roll against their CMD.


I always thought the point was to hit them a bunch then knock them back far enough they need to move more than 5 feet to attack back, so they lose extra attacks.


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"substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check"

There are two ways to translate that text, and you are choosing the weaker reading. You are reading it as saying that your attack roll alone replaces the CMB check. But that text could also be interpreted as you use your roll from your attack as your roll for your combat maneuver check.

"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus."

Liberty's Edge

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Chess Pwn wrote:
The issue is that you're not making a bull rush attempt, so you don't get the +4 or any other CMB boosting stuff. It's your attack roll against their CMD.

Sorry, you are incorrect. The feat reads:

Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat).

The term 'combat maneuver check' refers to the roll and modifiers and not just the die. For instance, by your logic, in order to escape from a grapple, your combat maneuver check would not include modifiers from Improved Grapple.


RedDogMT wrote:
The term 'combat maneuver check' refers to the roll and modifiers and not just the die.

And "for" that check you use your attack roll.

"Performing a Combat Maneuver: ...When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus."


Cavall wrote:
I always thought the point was to hit them a bunch then knock them back far enough they need to move more than 5 feet to attack back, so they lose extra attacks.

I don't think you get to do all your attacks and then all your bull rushes. If your first attack is with a shield and you use this feat and it succeeds, then the enemy isn't close enough to attack. If you use your last iterative attack it'll never trigger.


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Your attack roll is d20 + bonuses.
CMB check is d20 + bonuses.
You substitute your attack roll for the CMB check.

So you're no longer making a CMB check, you've replaced that CMB check with the attack roll you made to hit them with.

If it said, "using your roll for your attack roll as your CMB roll" or something then sure. But it says take your attack roll, and use it instead of making a CMB check.


If Improved/Greater Bull Rush says "you receive a +2 bonus on *checks* made to..." And Shield Slam says "substituting your attack roll for the combat mabeuver *check*", then grammatically theres no question about the wording; the bonus from greater/improved applies to combat maneuver checks, and Shield Slam uses attack roll instead of a combat maneuver check.

The major flip-side to Shield Slam is that your attack roll includes things like weapon enhancement, weapon focus, weapon training, etc. Normally a Bull Rush isn't performed with a weapon, but Shield Slam subs attack roll so... In total, weapon bonuses can easily be greater than a +4 when added up.


Chess Pwn wrote:

Your attack roll is d20 + bonuses.

CMB check is d20 + bonuses.
You substitute your attack roll for the CMB check.

So you're no longer making a CMB check, you've replaced that CMB check with the attack roll you made to hit them with.

If it said, "using your roll for your attack roll as your CMB roll" or something then sure. But it says take your attack roll, and use it instead of making a CMB check.

A combat maneuver check is just your attack roll + your CMB, so then why doesn't it just say, "use your attack roll without your CMB"

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
The odds of Shield Slam succeeding is akin to threatening a critical hit.

Having seen it in play, I can asure you that if you are using it on a properly built full BAB character, it will succeed, and often.

I have seen a build kill an opposing creature with shield slams on the creatures turn.


Can someone give an example of a 10th or so level fighter shield slaming with a +2 shield vs a regular bull rush?

I think this will make it easier for us all to see how each other is looking at this...maybe...


TriOmegaZero wrote:
FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
The odds of Shield Slam succeeding is akin to threatening a critical hit.

Having seen it in play, I can asure you that if you are using it on a properly built full BAB character, it will succeed, and often.

I have seen a build kill an opposing creature with shield slams on the creatures turn.

Oh yeah you can do it as an AO!


Melkiador wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

Your attack roll is d20 + bonuses.

CMB check is d20 + bonuses.
You substitute your attack roll for the CMB check.

So you're no longer making a CMB check, you've replaced that CMB check with the attack roll you made to hit them with.

If it said, "using your roll for your attack roll as your CMB roll" or something then sure. But it says take your attack roll, and use it instead of making a CMB check.

A combat maneuver check is just your attack roll + your CMB, so then why doesn't it just say, "use your attack roll without your CMB"

Dude you're seriously missing what I'm saying and what the rules say

An attack roll is a d20 + attack bonuses.
A CMB is an attack roll (d20 + attack bonuses), but add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. (d20 + attack bonuses - attack bonuses + CMB) = (d20 + CMB)

So NO a A combat maneuver check is NOT just your attack roll + your CMB. It's a DIE roll + CMB, or an attack roll - normal bonuses + CMB.

So if I have a +5 sword weapon focus weapon training +4 str mod 5 and bab 10 I have a +25 as my normal attack roll bonus. If my CMB was 15 a normal CMB check would be an attack roll using CMB instead of normal attack bonuses. So my attack roll is d20+25, and CMB is d20+15. So unless when your GM asks for your attack roll for a normal attack you just tell him the d20 with no modifiers, it seems like you're making a big oversight or intentionally trying to misrepresent what I'm saying.

Again, an attack roll ISN'T the die roll, the die roll is part of an attack roll, but an attack roll is more than just the die roll.


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Lemartes wrote:

Can someone give an example of a 10th or so level fighter shield slaming with a +2 shield vs a regular bull rush?

I think this will make it easier for us all to see how each other is looking at this...maybe...

Fighter 10th with str mod 6 weapon training 2 for shields, gloves of dueling, +2 shield, improved bull rush and greater bull rush, weapon focus shield and greater weapon focus shield.

attack roll is 10+6+2+4+1+1 = +24
Bull rush is 10+6+2+2 = +20

So off of this comparison the attack roll is 4 higher than CMB check. This isn't including all the magic items you can scour for to boost CMB without boosting attack rolls. So with those it's probably close to slight advantage bull rush. If you add in class specific bonuses then bull rush can get even higher.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Lemartes wrote:

Can someone give an example of a 10th or so level fighter shield slaming with a +2 shield vs a regular bull rush?

I think this will make it easier for us all to see how each other is looking at this...maybe...

Fighter 10th with str mod 6 weapon training 2 for shields, gloves of dueling, +2 shield, improved bull rush and greater bull rush, weapon focus shield and greater weapon focus shield.

attack roll is 10+6+2+4+1+1 = +24
Bull rush is 10+6+2+2 = +20

So off of this comparison the attack roll is 4 higher than CMB check. This isn't including all the magic items you can scour for to boost CMB without boosting attack rolls. So with those it's probably close to slight advantage bull rush. If you add in class specific bonuses then bull rush can get even higher.

Thanks.

So what's your assessment? It looks worth it to me considering the versatility it gives you.

Use it on AOs. Rare as that may be.

On a charge or whenever you advance to base to base so you can push an enemy from full attacking you but you still get one shot in. That might be useful with vital strike.

Of course you can try and use it on your last attack of a full attack and rarely you might push an enemy far enough to avoid a return full attack.

Opponent near an edge...initiate a full attack if you knock them off with the first attack you did damage and they fall. If not you get a full attack. Actually don't you get to try on each attack? Regardless better than trying a bull rush and then nothing if you fail.

Plus it works great against a wall if you slam the guy into a wall they fall down don't they? Then against the rest of your attacks they are -4 AC and prone. If you haven't 5 foot stepped that turn you can move out of range of their full attack. Baring opponents with reach etc.


Shield Slam + Greater Bull Rush + Paired Opportunists...

+ Animal Ally / Eldritch Guardian? + Pack Attack?


So..should an FAQ start about if those feats add to a shield slam?


Cavall wrote:
So..should an FAQ start about if those feats add to a shield slam?

Of course they do.


So with math for a level 10 human fighter (no archetype) focused on shield (close weapon group) assuming min-max stats for strength for a 22 (18 +2 racial +2 for levels) 0 feats increasing attack rolls (just for the sake of easy math) and 0 magic items (dm was handin em out to the bard instead) we get:

10 bab +6 str +2 for weapon training for a net total of +18 and if twf propperly then you only take a -2 for a +16 on your shield bash attack/bull rush check which is the exact same bonus you'd get for 0 investment into the manuever. Now however keep in mind that this rush is free. Meaning that if it works then right on for ya if not oh well no real skin off your neck. If the manuever feats do not add to the check then you would need a +4 enchantment at level 10 to match the manuever.

Now keep in mind the stressed part of this is FREE COMBAT MANUEVER for every shield hit. Sure you're gonna be down a few bonuses but at 10th lvl on a full attack thats 2 shield attacks (3 with a haste effect) that if they land are a free manuever, and if that manuever lands while their up against a wall down they go.

Thats one or two more attemps a round that you can take over the guy that specializes into maneuvers.


DeusTerran wrote:
Stats

A Fighter can't use both Gloves of Dueling (+2 Weapon Training) and Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver, so that's one major upside to Bull Rush with an attack roll instead of with a combat maneuver check. Focus + Greater Focus + a weapon enhancement of at least +2 has already matched what you would get if you were using Improved/Greater Bull Rush on a check instead of using an attack roll.


Yes it's a free maneuver, but most of the time you'd only try to take the free CM on your last swing that you hope hits which has the least chance of overcoming CMD. Cause if you use your first with the best chance, or every attack, then you miss out on the rest of your full attack. So for this to be good you'd need some way to shield bash and bull rush and then be able to have reach to continue attacking them.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Yes it's a free maneuver, but most of the time you'd only try to take the free CM on your last swing that you hope hits which has the least chance of overcoming CMD. Cause if you use your first with the best chance, or every attack, then you miss out on the rest of your full attack. So for this to be good you'd need some way to shield bash and bull rush and then be able to have reach to continue attacking them.

That would be where allies (or self-constructed allies) come in. Pack Attack and Paired Opportunists...

Lantern Lodge

So, I did some theory crafting, and I stand corrected. A slayer 6, Weapon Master 3, Barbarian 1 can throw out some good damage using shields and bull rushes.

Character Build:

Level 10 Information:

Base: STR: 16 DEX: 15 CON: 18 INT: 9 WIS: 10 CHA: 5
Lvl 10: STR: 20 DEX: 17 CON: 20 INT: 9 WIS: 10 CHA: 5
sly 1 Improved Shield Base
1* Toughness (Dwarf Unstoppable)
sly 2 Shield Slam (Slayer Talent)
sly 3 TWF
sly 4 Weapon Focus: Heavy Shield (Slayer Talent)
sly 5 Spiked Destroyer
sly 6 Shield Master (Slayer Talent)
bar 7 Raging Throw
ftr 8 iTWF
ftr 9 Raging Vitality
9* Double Slice
ftr 10 -------------

Items:
2 Heavy Throwing Shields (+2, 8k)
Boots of Speed (12k)
+2 all physical stats belt (16k)
Gloves of Dueling (+2 atk and dmg) (15k)
+2 Cloak of Resistance (4k)
+2 Spiked Plate Armor (5k)

60k/62k (2k for other expenses, such as a wand of CLW, etc...)

HP: 126 (156 raging)
10 (sly) + 7*6 (sly, ftr) + 2*7 (bar) = 67 base
67 + 50 (con) + 10 (toughness) + 30 (rage) = 157!
AC: 10 + 9 (+2 tatamido) + 3 (dex) + 4 (+2 Heavy Shield) - 2 (raing) = 24

Attacks:
Shields: 10 (bab) + 5 (str) + 3 (weapon training) + 1 (weapon focus) + 2 (weapon enchantment) + 2 (rage) - 2 (TWF) =
22/22/22/22/17
Damage: 1d4 + 5 (str) + 3 (weapon training) + 2 (enchantment) + 2 (rage) = 1d4+12 (+2d6 sneak attack) (+13 Bull Rush w/ obstacle)
Armor Spikes: 10 (bab) + 5 (str) + 3 (weapon training) + 2 (rage) - 2 (TWF) = 19
Damage: 1d6 + 5 (str) + 3 (trainig) + 2 (rage) = 1d6+10 (+2d6 sneak attack)

Against 24 AC, 32 CMD:
(14.5 * 4 * .9) + (14.5 * .65) * 1.05 (chance it was a crit) = 64.70625
When against a wall or something:
+ (13 * 4 * .55) + (13 * .20) + (13.5 * .8) [armor spikes] = 106.70625
With Sneak Attack:
+ (4*7*.9) + (7*.65) + (7 * .8) = 142.05625
If target is prone (automatic if against a wall) + 4 atk rolls:
((14.5 * 4 * .95) + (14.5 * .85) + (13.5 * .95)) * 1.05 + (7 * 5 * .95) + (7 * .85) + (13 * 4 * .75) + (13 * .4) = 167.6625

Assuming Haste from boots (10rds/day) and rage (11rds/day)

With -two- shields you'll get a decent amount of bull rushes off.


Well, sometimes I learn something new even from the Core Rulebook. Somehow, I managed to miss this feat altogether until now.

Shield Slam sounds like it would actually be pretty good on a Skirnir Magus -- use True Strike to make sure the Bull Rush lands even against a high CMD opponent. At 8th level, you don't even have to do the workaround of shifting your weapon to your shield hand to cast a spell, so you can even do this with a Heavy Shield, and you can even use Spell Combat while using both. The first problem is making it to 8th level with no Spell Combat (this archetype delays Spell Combat to 8th level), although you can use the above workaround with a Light Shield (or use a weapon cord so that you can drop your weapon without losing it) before 8th level. The second problem is the high cost in other feats needed as prerequisites.

The above workaround also functions for other classes that can use a shield and can cast True Strike, but lack Spell Combat:

  • some Alchemists (need to get shield proficiency outside of class)
  • Arcanists/Sorcerers/Wizards (need to get shield proficiency outside of class; listed for completeness only because this technically works; however, see Eldritch Knight below)
  • some Bard archetypes (for instance, Magician) can snag True Strike
  • Bloodragers
  • Child of Acavna and Amaznen Fighter (terrible archetype is still terrible)
  • some Clerics (requires Destruction, Fist, or Luck (Sub)Domains)
  • some Eldritch Knights (shield-proficient martial dip + Arcanist/Sorceror/Wizard)
  • Inquisitors
  • some Sacred Servant Paladins (see Cleric above)
  • Magi (apart from the Skirnir archetype noted above, get shield proficiency outside of class -- Card Caster Magus with a Dip in Shield Champion Brawler sounds like it has potential, although note that ranged shield attacks don't count as shield bashes unless you actually get 7 levels of Shield Champion Brawler, in which case the alternate class feature makes Shield Slam almost obsolete, but your spellcasting progression is terribly delayed)
  • some Mediums (need to get shield proficiency outside of class)
  • some Oracles (need the right mystery and/or archetype to snag True Strike)
  • some Psychics (need to get shield proficiency outside of class; keep this in mind if a Psychic Knight prestige class ever appears)
  • Rogues (Major Magic Rogue Talent or Eldritch Scoundrel archetype; need to get shield proficiency outside of class)
  • some Shamans (need to get shield proficiency outside of class, and need the Lore Spirit with the Arcane Enlightenment Hex to snag True Strike; however, extreme MADness really hurts this combination except at very high point buys or insanely good ability score rolls)
  • some Skalds (use Spell Kenning to snag True Strike)

If you have an extra appendage or a Familiar, you could UMD a Wand of True Strike and not need spellcasting capability.

You would probably want to use Shield Slam when you are fighting more melee opponents at once than you want to, and need to make one of them go away temporarily while you deal with the other(s).

If you can cast one of the Create Pit series of spells (including ways to get hold of such as spell when it is not normally on your spell list, such as the Spell Blending Magus Arcana), or have an ally that you can rely on to use these, or happen to be in an area that already has pits (including ones that an enemy spellcaster created, if you can get positioned properly), this becomes even better.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

So, I did some theory crafting, and I stand corrected. A slayer 6, Weapon Master 3, Barbarian 1 can throw out some good damage using shields and bull rushes.

** spoiler omitted **...

Take a look at the Siegebreaker Fighter as well.


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FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

So, I did some theory crafting, and I stand corrected. A slayer 6, Weapon Master 3, Barbarian 1 can throw out some good damage using shields and bull rushes.

** spoiler omitted **...

I know....that in theory..this i the optimal way to do shield bashing...but goddamn if 2 shields isn't the most singularly stupid looking aesthetic for your fighter to have.

Lantern Lodge

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Well, He's a dwarf in full plate (probably), covered in spikes, with two shields, covered with spikes... Should his nickname be Spikes? ("Yo Spikes, get over here!").

I guess he would look somewhat like a hellbat from Star Craft 2

Lantern Lodge

"If you have an extra appendage or a Familiar, you could UMD a Wand of True Strike and not need spellcasting capability."

Can a familiar cast true strike for you? I thought share spells was only 1 direction (wizard to familiar)


Actual quote from a satisfied customer:

"'Farrukh is brutal fighter, mercenary. If scenario hits red levels, may be possible to turn him against own side. Simple form, but complicated fighting style makes impractical for switchup.' A newer note here reads, 'Do not get between Al'Khatel and wall.'"

Unfortunately, he didn't follow his own advice.

The free trip part is the better part of Shield Slam.


FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

"If you have an extra appendage or a Familiar, you could UMD a Wand of True Strike and not need spellcasting capability."

Can a familiar cast true strike for you? I thought share spells was only 1 direction (wizard to familiar)

I read it again . . . I guess you're right. So that means you're going to have to get the extra appendage if you go this route. This means at least 2 levels of Alchemist; Tiefling with Prehensile Tail and/or Grasping Tail; Kasatha; or if you actually do cast spells but don't have True Strike, in some cases you could polymorph into a multi-armed for using Monstrous Physique when you get to a high enough level. Of course, if you have multiple arms, spellcasting while holding a weapon and a shield becomes a LOT easier.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

"If you have an extra appendage or a Familiar, you could UMD a Wand of True Strike and not need spellcasting capability."

Can a familiar cast true strike for you? I thought share spells was only 1 direction (wizard to familiar)

I read it again . . . I guess you're right. So that means you're going to have to get the extra appendage if you go this route. This means at least 2 levels of Alchemist; Tiefling with Prehensile Tail and/or Grasping Tail; Kasatha; or if you actually do cast spells but don't have True Strike, in some cases you could polymorph into a multi-armed for using Monstrous Physique when you get to a high enough level. Of course, if you have multiple arms, spellcasting while holding a weapon and a shield becomes a LOT easier.

Vanaras can get a prehensile tail, too.


Just gonna throw out an anecdotal "there was a level 5 brawler at a table I GM'd tonight who Shield Slammed a crocodile 20' back." This level 5 character had over 30 on his attack roll. With more buffs, better itemization, and the natural BAB and strength increases that come with leveling up, he's easily going to be getting in the 40s by level 10.

Lantern Lodge

@Serisan

I take it he rolled a 20?


It was something like an 18. He had a Combat Advice aid another bonus in there and attacking from higher ground, maybe a Bless as well.


Farrukh Al-Khatel wrote:

Actual quote from a satisfied customer:

"'Farrukh is brutal fighter, mercenary. If scenario hits red levels, may be possible to turn him against own side. Simple form, but complicated fighting style makes impractical for switchup.' A newer note here reads, 'Do not get between Al'Khatel and wall.'"

Unfortunately, he didn't follow his own advice.

The free trip part is the better part of Shield Slam.

That's what I mentioned above. I agree the trip against the wall is the best part. Trip them against a wall on your first attack then demo them with the rest of your attacks while their AC is lowered. If other party members are close you lowered the target's AC for all of their attacks as well. If you can 5 foot step do so and avoid the return full attack. Barring reach, monkey style etc. etc. as I mentioned above.


Preliminary Skirnir build using Shield Slam.


Lemartes wrote:
Farrukh Al-Khatel wrote:

Actual quote from a satisfied customer:

"'Farrukh is brutal fighter, mercenary. If scenario hits red levels, may be possible to turn him against own side. Simple form, but complicated fighting style makes impractical for switchup.' A newer note here reads, 'Do not get between Al'Khatel and wall.'"

Unfortunately, he didn't follow his own advice.

The free trip part is the better part of Shield Slam.

That's what I mentioned above. I agree the trip against the wall is the best part. Trip them against a wall on your first attack then demo them with the rest of your attacks while their AC is lowered. If other party members are close you lowered the target's AC for all of their attacks as well. If you can 5 foot step do so and avoid the return full attack. Barring reach, monkey style etc. etc. as I mentioned above.

I do wonder how a pair of shield slammers with combat reflexes could use this though.... could they actually juggle a foe indefinitely?


Thoughts on how some Magus Arcana would work with Shield Slam, keeping in mind that a Magus that is doing something interesting with a shield on a regular basis is NOT your average Magus:

Accurate Strike: I doubt that this would work, since Shield Slam/Bull Rush is against CMD rather than armor.

Arcane Redoubt: No direct interaction, but if you are a Magus that is doing something interesting with a shield on a regular basis, you might want this for defensive purposes.

Arcane Redoubt, Greater: See above, but it depends upon whether you are up against enemies that do more than just damage (or that do extremely serious damage) when targeting your Reflex Save (like for instance, they like to use the Create Pit series of spells against you).

Enduring Blade: No direct interaction, but if you are a Skirnir, you are probably enchanting both your weapon and your shield, and thus eating Arcane Pool points faster, so if you are in long fights, you'll want this to conserve Arcane Pool points; careful, though, because if the fight actually turns out to be short, it actually uses more Arcane Pool points.

Ghost Blade: Rules As Written, this should work on your shield, in case you need to Shield Slam an Incorporeal enemy. What ISN'T clear, though, is whether this also counts as the Ghost Touch armor property -- the Ghost Touch weapon property that this Magus Arcana gives has noticeably different enchantment requirements. The Brilliant Energy option is also somewhat useful, since Shield Slam is putting a Bull Rush (somewhat nerfed in effectiveness but improved in action economy) as a rider on top of a normal Shield Bash attack -- it won't help you with the Bull Rush itself, but it will help you damage the enemy in the process, as long as they're not one of the types that is immune to Brilliant Energy.

Hasted Assault: No direct interaction, but getting an extra attack in means you have more chances to do a Shield Slam in each round.

Maneuver Mastery (Bull Rush): Shield Slam is a Bull Rush (somewhat nerfed in effectiveness but improved in action economy), so this should work, and as a considerable bonus, it doesn't consume Arcane Pool points.

Prescient Attack: If you are going to do a weapon attack and then a Shield Slam, this could help, since denying an opponent their Dexterity Donus nerfs their CMD, assuming that they have a Dexterity Bonus.

Lantern Lodge

UnArcaneElection, you almost sound as if you wrote a guide on the magus class :P (I did the section on Kensai magus, although I haven't updated it in forever).

My hesitancy with Skirnir would be how late everything comes online. Shield Slam requires BaB 6, which delays it to level 8 if using retraining, 10 if not.

I do like skirnir, but it always striked me as a late game magus archetype (> lvl 8). I'm currently planning a PFS character.

A better option (IMO) would be a 3 level dip into some other magus archetype, and then switch into something else (perhaps slayer for early access to shield slam). Pick up the wand wielder arcana, and then true strike + shield slam all day long.

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