1d6 damage + 1 point for every 2 levels. Why?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Firebug wrote:
Unless you want to memorize more then 6-8 different spells, or you do not think you can afford to take the standard actions to activate the pearls of power to recharge your slots. Taking a standard action to pull out a pearl of power to recharge air bubble or touch of the sea when the boat capsizes from a giant squid and no one else can swim is probably not a great situation to be in.

Well, if the squid capsizes the boat, air bubble or touch of the sea wouldn't be my first choice of spells to utilize in that situation, but whatever floats your boat (pun intended).

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Sundakan wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Sundakan wrote:

I'd say a solid 15% of the game. Which may not SOUND like a lot, but it's generally the most used sort of mechanics, or at least things people WANT to do.

Combat Maneuvers, for instance. Or Feats without a chain attached.

Combat maneuvers... you mean the "your whole character better be designed around this or it will be nearly impossible... and even then you might only be pretty good at it" mechanic?

Yes.

And even then...build your character around Steal, Reposition, or Overrun. I dare you.

I can see a Reposition-specialist being useful when partnered with a 2-weapon fighting rogue. The Rs would move in, reposition the opponent into a flanking position between the Rs and the 2wfr. Maybe even combined with some Bull Rushing or Pushing Assault. Spin the baddy around and then push them into the middle of all your allies.

Maybe not an optimized build, but it sounds like fun to me! :-D


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Dave Justus wrote:

My heart is overcome with sadness for the poor nine level casters, burdened with these weak abilities, they will never be able to meaningfully contribute.

Why can't casters have only really really super nice things?

This isn't a matter of sadness for 9 level casters -- some of them really do get nice things. For instance, if you get the Ghoul Bloodline, the 1st level Bloodline Power is really nice. Even on a blaster, it would be better than the various ray powers, and the blaster would be only slightly less optimal for having the Ghoul Bloodline as compared to having one of the thematically appropriate Bloodlines (yes, noticeably less damage per blast, but things like Dazing Spell and Rime Spell don't care about that anyway). Of course, this is just part of a larger problem: Sorcerer Bloodlines are all over the place in quality, both overall and with respect to individual Bloodline Powers and Bloodline Arcana, and don't even get me started on the variation in quality of the Bloodline Feats and Bloodline Spells, and especially don't get me started on the horrible method of organizing the Wildblooded Bloodlines as archetypes rather than as sub-Bloodlines (like Subdomains are to Domains). If we were to have a Sorcerer Unchained, it would be not so much for an increase in power as to clean this mess up.


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You can always trade bloodline abilities out for options that improve blasting thanks to Magical Tactics Toolbox, so Sorc is covered.


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They exist purely as a way to give more options in combat. IMO, the standard should be mediocre damage (bigger than acid splash, smaller than snowball), apply a minor debuff (-2 AC, attack, concentration, specific type of save) and usable at will. At high levels, probably won't see much screen time, but might pop up in the fights built to burn resources. Unfortunately, they aren't quite there (though 7/day is close to how often I would cast acid splash, and whether I inflict a small penalty on attacks doesn't change my GM's "2 or 20" to hit mindset).

Its neat that some have really strong abilities (arcane bloodline, teleporter wizard) but probably better for the abiliy to stay as a limited way to add flavor and duration to low levels before fun toys open up. After all, casters do get a lion share of good stuff, so one or two mediocre (yet useful enough) powers should be thrown in every once in a while. Unfortunately, they tend to become avoidable filler instead of useful and flavorful content.

As is, its a nice 1/2 spell, which lets me just throw dice at a problem when I don't feel like managing a summoned turn and my turn. Keeps turns short to throw 2 dice and keeps damage from making melee jealous.


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I'd be down for a redone sorcerer. Made the bloodlines like mysteries, give them bonus spells on even levels, give them some more skill points...just make sure to get rid of the ring of spell knowledge while you're at it.

Silver Crusade

KenderKin wrote:

I have used it at higher levels, but I am taking the weather domain

Storm Burst (Sp): As a standard action, you can create a storm burst targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The storm burst deals 1d6 points of nonlethal damage + 1 point for every two cleric levels you possess. In addition, the target is buffeted by winds and rain, causing it to take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for 1 round.

This is much better than most of the ones being discussed, because it is a ranged touch attack, potential knock out blow and makes the target have a minus 2 on the next attack roll.

Maybe this dynamic added to the other selections would be an improvement.....

Yeah, I took Weather domain on Sylph Sky Druid. The character's totally air and weather focused, and mostly a controller caster. This is the only damage she ever does, but she uses it as much for the debuff as to deal damage. I'm sure it'll get less damage at higher levels, but she's only level 3 so far.


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SmiloDan wrote:

I can see a Reposition-specialist being useful when partnered with a 2-weapon fighting rogue. The Rs would move in, reposition the opponent into a flanking position between the Rs and the 2wfr. Maybe even combined with some Bull Rushing or Pushing Assault. Spin the baddy around and then push them into the middle of all your allies.

Maybe not an optimized build, but it sounds like fun to me! :-D

I actually played a "resposition-specialist" in a Jade Regent campaign - a vanilla fighter with a 13 int that took the various trip, disarm, and reposition feats. My party included a rogue-turned-arcane trickster, a melee inquisitor of Torag (with precise strike), and the inquisitor's barbarian cohort.

After the first session where I seriously used reposition, it got nicknamed "The Woodchipper Maneuver."

I actually gave the GM headaches with tactical reposition, since my CMB was high enough that I could win the checks by huge margins - enough that I could swing an enemy completely through a hazard (like blade barrier), and then swing it right back through again. I think 3 times on one check was my record. It's been a couple years now.

It was fun. Very unorthodox, but fun.


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Long ago, man make ability. Ability become formula for lot of core. Ability suck. Still, cannot improve because of creeping of power. Sad day.


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The Mortonator wrote:
Long ago, man make ability. Ability become formula for lot of core. Ability suck. Still, cannot improve because of creeping of power. Sad day.

A feat chain could improve the d6+1/2 lv abilities. Start out with it adding a couple debuffs and maybe a +2 on damage. Have it end with respectable damage for a 9th level standard attack (maybe d8+8?), a respectable debuff (shaken or sickened) and doubled penalties v. School/bloodline/domain/spirit spells and abilities. Maybe not a trick for every fight, but I could see a -4 on saves v. Some tricks being worth a standard, especialy if some damage is done and it helps allies. It wouldn't be strictly optimal, but it would be worth print space IMO.

Dark Archive

Scythia wrote:
ryric wrote:
These abilities exist entirely so your caster doesn't have to resort to a crossbow at level 1 unless you want them to. That's pretty much their whole purpose. You're not meant to use them once you have enough spells to have staying power. They suck because they are a patch on a 3.5 problem. They are not intended to be useful past level 2 or so.
Funny, I thought that was why Acid Splash existed.

SNERK

Acid splash is your basic "stop the troll from regenerating" effect. Not really good for much since it's 1d3 damage, as I recall. Zero level damage spells are really only useful at low levels. Higher levels, if you're down to them... well, you're in serious trouble already.

That said, 1d6+1/2 level isn't that bad. Or are people claiming that everyone who opts to use a short sword, club, or other 1d6 weapon is horribly built? And these weapons often aren't being wielded by someone who can consistantly pump out a +11 damage bonus from the get go. They're being used by monks, rogues (okay, sneak attack), and as backup weapons for the archery focused ranger. Or maybe by the cleric who focuses more on magic then melee combat ability.

I have one PFS character who's weapon attack at level 1 did 2d8+9 damage, I think. But that damage isn't going to become all that spectacular while leveling. +5 from eventually having a +5 scythe, maybe another +6 from stat tomes and items, and power attack. For a total of 2d8+32 by level 20 with idealized gear, I think. It sounds like a lot, but that's only with power attack being used, may not always be desirable. In which case take off 15 points of the damage bonus. And without crits, it still is a drop in the bucket compared to the health of many high end critters.

Oh, and try comparing that 'mechanically useless 1d6+1/2 level to say... magic missile which does at most 5d4+5 damage to a single target. Or in other words 10-25 damage, average of 15 damage. This too would be a drop in the bucket for high end foes. You're plinking away at a dragon with magic missile, it's very unlikely you're doing maximum damage with it. I'd say a class ability that can at high levels deal 11-16 damage with an average of 13 or 14 damage compares rather favorably to other level 1 damaging spells.

But hey, what do I know? It's not like I'm also a gamer. Then again, these are opinions. What one person considers mechanically useless, another may consider useful. Although I personally believe comparing the utility of a level damaging class ability with that of high level spells and abilities is kind of silly. Compare it to things in the same bracket as the ability. You know, apples to apples, not apples to kiwi.


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1d6+1/2

at lv4
acid splash = 1d6+2
weapon = 1d6+4 + more often x2

at lv8
acid splash = 1d6+4
weapon = 1d6+2 + more often x2 and -5 accuracy, maybe x2 as well.

fighting big dragon, MM is only if it's out of range of everything else. You don't use or expect lv1 abilities to be used. The topic people are addressing is they'd like to see these abilities have more use beyond lv2.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I like 5th Edition cantrips, which scale with level approximately at the same level many martials gain additional attacks.

Maybe if these class abilities did extra dice of damage at levels 6, 11, and 16 in PF? And instead of adding 1/2 level, add the spellcasting ability modifier? 1d6+3 or 5 at 1st level, 2d6+4 or 6 at 6th, 3d6+6 or 10 at 11th, and 4d6+15 or so at 16th.


(1d6+1) per 4 levels beyond 1st.


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Kalindlara wrote:
So, just out of curiosity... assuming no other alterations to these class features, how much damage would they have to deal - with what rate of advancement - to be appropriately balanced?

How much damage would it need before I would consider taking it instead of teleportation or divination?

Err... quite a lot. D6/level might do it? But even then there's a scarcity factor pointing toward the current good options that you can't easily replicate.

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I think the developers didn't realize how much supporting material they would later be publishing. Otherwise, I think they would have made those abilities a little bit more modular, with room to grow. That said, there is still room to grow. They can make feats to increase the damage and add carrier effects (prone, pushed, sickened, shaken, stunned, etc.).


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SmiloDan wrote:
I think the developers didn't realize how much supporting material they would later be publishing. Otherwise, I think they would have made those abilities a little bit more modular, with room to grow. That said, there is still room to grow. They can make feats to increase the damage and add carrier effects (prone, pushed, sickened, shaken, stunned, etc.).

Here is my attempt for those interested.


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Kahel Stormbender wrote:
Scythia wrote:
ryric wrote:
These abilities exist entirely so your caster doesn't have to resort to a crossbow at level 1 unless you want them to. That's pretty much their whole purpose. You're not meant to use them once you have enough spells to have staying power. They suck because they are a patch on a 3.5 problem. They are not intended to be useful past level 2 or so.
Funny, I thought that was why Acid Splash existed.

SNERK

Acid splash is your basic "stop the troll from regenerating" effect. Not really good for much since it's 1d3 damage, as I recall. Zero level damage spells are really only useful at low levels. Higher levels, if you're down to them... well, you're in serious trouble already.

That said, 1d6+1/2 level isn't that bad. Or are people claiming that everyone who opts to use a short sword, club, or other 1d6 weapon is horribly built? And these weapons often aren't being wielded by someone who can consistantly pump out a +11 damage bonus from the get go. They're being used by monks, rogues (okay, sneak attack), and as backup weapons for the archery focused ranger. Or maybe by the cleric who focuses more on magic then melee combat ability.

I have one PFS character who's weapon attack at level 1 did 2d8+9 damage, I think. But that damage isn't going to become all that spectacular while leveling. +5 from eventually having a +5 scythe, maybe another +6 from stat tomes and items, and power attack. For a total of 2d8+32 by level 20 with idealized gear, I think. It sounds like a lot, but that's only with power attack being used, may not always be desirable. In which case take off 15 points of the damage bonus. And without crits, it still is a drop in the bucket compared to the health of many high end critters.

Oh, and try comparing that 'mechanically useless 1d6+1/2 level to say... magic missile which does at most 5d4+5 damage to a single target. Or in other words 10-25 damage, average of 15 damage. This too would be a drop in the bucket for high end foes....

The post I replied to said "at level 1".


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SmiloDan wrote:

I like 5th Edition cantrips, which scale with level approximately at the same level many martials gain additional attacks.

Maybe if these class abilities did extra dice of damage at levels 6, 11, and 16 in PF? And instead of adding 1/2 level, add the spellcasting ability modifier? 1d6+3 or 5 at 1st level, 2d6+4 or 6 at 6th, 3d6+6 or 10 at 11th, and 4d6+15 or so at 16th.

That would have been nice, even better by being at-will.


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Oddly, 5th Edition looks like it would be less punishing to casters having a very slowly scaling power (if the strongly scaling powers weren't available) than Pathfinder, because proficiency (including weapon attack proficiency) scales less rapidly with level.

Sovereign Court

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There's fun fluff, and there's garbage. The only redeeming they could get is if they get errata'd into at will abilities Sp.

Silver Crusade

The bottom line is that they give low level casters something to do when they don't have enough spells yet. People keep saying that's what Acid Splash is for, but many of these powers are on classes that don't get ANY direct damage cantrips (clerics, oracles, druids, etc).

If you need them to scale up so they're still useful at higher levels, then you've got other problems.


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Fromper wrote:
The bottom line is that they give low level casters something to do when they don't have enough spells yet.

Yeah, and the bottom line of that is that they aren't even very good at that and don't scale and are attached to combat styles that aren't even that good to begin with.

Quote:
People keep saying that's what Acid Splash is for, but many of these powers are on classes that don't get ANY direct damage cantrips (clerics, oracles, druids, etc).

This is actually a valid point, though I can't imagine an Oracle ever willingly choosing that revelation given how poor it is and despite clerics having no offensive cantrips, I'm not sure that really justifies making one of their only four class features a garbage damage ability they'll forget about in three levels. Assuming you're not a battle cleric or druid, in which case you'll forget about it at level 1.

And even if you say "but clerics!" that doesn't change the fact that sorcerers have a ton of these and wizards have one too.

Quote:
If you need them to scale up so they're still useful at higher levels, then you've got other problems.

Yeah. And the problem is that one of the very few class features people who take this option is a garbage ability that stops being useful past level 3 and wasn't even really any good before then in the first place.

I'm kind of amazed at how many people are defending this. Like bloodlines and domains getting horrible abilities to disincentivize people from ever taking them is somehow some awesome thing.

Silver Crusade

I never said it was awesome. But they are better than nothing at low level. Not better than the really good options, but still usable.

I actually have two PC's in PFS that have domains with these types of first level powers. One is my casting focused druid with the Weather domain, mentioned above. The other is a cleric with the Fire domain, that I wanted to be able to do a little bit of blasting. Maybe they're not uber-optimized, but I did use these first level abilities on both of them at low levels, and nobody ever complained that my PC's were too useless to bring along on a mission.


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Fromper wrote:

I never said it was awesome. But they are better than nothing at low level. Not better than the really good options, but still usable.

I actually have two PC's in PFS that have domains with these types of first level powers. One is my casting focused druid with the Weather domain, mentioned above. The other is a cleric with the Fire domain, that I wanted to be able to do a little bit of blasting. Maybe they're not uber-optimized, but I did use these first level abilities on both of them at low levels, and nobody ever complained that my PC's were too useless to bring along on a mission.

There is a big difference between "one or two of my abilities don't age well" and "I am too useless for a mission." People are complaining about these because of a combination of the former issue and the fact that for some classes these powers are 1/5 of your class features.

Is there an inherent issue with these changing to scale more favorably? The Arcanist Ice Missile is thematically similar to the water domain ability, but also stacks on a useful debuff, does more damage, and is still not considered particularly fantastic. More of an "I am outa exploits to pick and this isn't horrendous" option.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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One issue with many of the CRB classes, feats, races, spells, etc., is that it was the first rulebook Paizo published (granted, they published lots of great D&D stuff before that!). Since then, they have learned a lot about game design, they've practiced designing and playing with character features, and they've moved away from being primarily concerned with being backwards compatible with D&D 3.5.

So a lot of their newer materials are more interesting and "powerful" than the CRB because they're being more creative. They've also had years and years of more play experience. This means they know that what happens at the tabletop is often different than what is expected in the rulebooks.

This is a good thing. If the day ever comes where they have PF 2.0 (or just more PF Unchained options for more classes, races, feats, spells, etc.), they will have more experience with game design.

For example, I really like 5th Edition, and it looks like they took the good bits from lots of different editions and dropped some of the bad bits (THAC0!), to make a really fun and elegant system.


It's an ability that does damage with an easy to hit. It doesn't use up valuable spells and is better than a crossbow for the people attacking, in both damage and target ac.

You use it when you know the creature is hurting but also want to have spells for the rest of the day.

The other option is crossbow. When you compare the two it isn't a comparison.


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Cavall wrote:

It's an ability that does damage with an easy to hit. It doesn't use up valuable spells and is better than a crossbow for the people attacking, in both damage and target ac.

You use it when you know the creature is hurting but also want to have spells for the rest of the day.

The other option is crossbow. When you compare the two it isn't a comparison.

The other option for my elemental sorcerer is acid splash. Which does 1.5 less damage at level 1 and 2.5 less damage at level 3.

Which I guess means 1.5 damage is just as good as a familiar, according to Paizo. Go figure.

And hell, a bunch of other versions of this ability are melee, which means it's not even a clear winner over a crossbow since you need to take weapon finesse and be in melee range to make it work.

So they don't even get that much.


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Fromper wrote:
I never said it was awesome. But they are better than nothing at low level.

Slightly

Quote:
I actually have two PC's in PFS that have domains with these types of first level powers. One is my casting focused druid with the Weather domain, mentioned above. The other is a cleric with the Fire domain, that I wanted to be able to do a little bit of blasting. Maybe they're not uber-optimized, but I did use these first level abilities on both of them at low levels, and nobody ever complained that my PC's were too useless to bring along on a mission.

Hey. I conceded in the OP that they have some benefit at low levels.

The main issue here isn't whether or not the power is kind of useful at level 1 though. It's that the power scales atrociously and is attached to a style of play that doesn't really need the nerf and is a horrendously boring copy-paste a dozen times over.

I don't think it's hard to argue that these powers actively make the domains, spirits, bloodlines and mysteries they're in worse because of their existence and they don't really need that treatment in the first place.

Cavall wrote:

It's an ability that does damage with an easy to hit. It doesn't use up valuable spells and is better than a crossbow for the people attacking, in both damage and target ac.

You use it when you know the creature is hurting but also want to have spells for the rest of the day.

The other option is crossbow. When you compare the two it isn't a comparison.

The other option for my elemental sorcerer is acid splash. Which does 1.5 less damage at level 1 and 2.5 less damage at level 3.

Which I guess means 1.5 damage is just as good as a familiar, according to Paizo. Go figure.

And hell, a bunch of other versions of this ability are melee, which means it's not even a clear winner over a crossbow since you need to take weapon finesse and be in melee range to make it work.

So they don't even get that much.


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Also, as mentioned above (although I don't remember the details), ways exist to boost the damage on some Cantrips to moderately serious levels (to easily more than these 1st level Bloodline Powers do except at very high levels), while maintaining their at-will attribute.

And then a few Bloodlines have amazing 1st level powers. Ghoulish Claws, anyone? This one gets a VERY GOOD upgrade at 5th level, and is one of the few 1st level abilities that would be worth taking just the 1st stage of Eldritch Heritage for, even though the later abilities aren't bad (except that some characters might not want the Stench from the 20th level ability).

Poorly-scaling 1st level abilities wouldn't be so bad if you could find something else to use them as fuel for (as with the Arclord of Nex prestige class for Wizards, preferably Universalist), or if you could apply them in some way that remains useful even if it doesn't scale in anything other than Saving Throw DC (if applicable) (examples of this are the Admixturer Wizard's Versatile Evocation power, the Storm Burst ability of hte Weather Domain, and the above-mentioned Ghoulish Claws of the Ghoul Sorcerer Bloodline after getting the 5th level upgrade).


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At least those abilities can be used to do stuff where it doesn't matter how much damage you deal but what kind of energy it is like suppress regeneration, slow or unslow iron golems etc.

That's not much but it is better than not having them.

Silver Crusade

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UnArcaneElection wrote:

Also, as mentioned above (although I don't remember the details), ways exist to boost the damage on some Cantrips to moderately serious levels (to easily more than these 1st level Bloodline Powers do except at very high levels), while maintaining their at-will attribute.

And then a few Bloodlines have amazing 1st level powers. Ghoulish Claws, anyone? This one gets a VERY GOOD upgrade at 5th level, and is one of the few 1st level abilities that would be worth taking just the 1st stage of Eldritch Heritage for, even though the later abilities aren't bad (except that some characters might not want the Stench from the 20th level ability).

Poorly-scaling 1st level abilities wouldn't be so bad if you could find something else to use them as fuel for (as with the Arclord of Nex prestige class for Wizards, preferably Universalist), or if you could apply them in some way that remains useful even if it doesn't scale in anything other than Saving Throw DC (if applicable) (examples of this are the Admixturer Wizard's Versatile Evocation power, the Storm Burst ability of hte Weather Domain, and the above-mentioned Ghoulish Claws of the Ghoul Sorcerer Bloodline after getting the 5th level upgrade).

Ghoul is indeed very good, and the 1d6+1 blasts are astonishingly poor compared to some first level powers as you say.

Look at the 1st level powers of the Void Wizard:

Void Wiz wrote:

Void Awareness (Su)

Your ability to recognize the void allows your body to react to magical manifestations before you’re even aware of them. You gain a +2 insight bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities. This bonus increases by +1 for every five wizard levels you possess.

At 20th level, whenever you would be affected by a spell or spell-like ability that allows a saving throw, you can roll twice to save against the effect and take the better result.

Reveal Weakness (Su)

When you activate this school power as a standard action, you select a foe within 30 feet. That creature takes a penalty to its AC and on saving throws equal to 1/2 your caster level (minimum –1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence bonus.

It's an extreme example because Voidy gets the best powers on top of being a Wizard, but just compare it to 1d6+1 blasts.

+6 saves to pretty much everything, stacks with everything, no action needed.

That's already better than a terrible blast, and then look at the nightmare of Reveal Weakness which ends up as -10 debuff to everything, no save, cannot be avoided.

The blasts are terrible, and yet I have taken it with a character in the past, not that I was happy with it. I took it with the Fire Domain for my Cleric of Sarenrae, which is otherwise a sensible domain choice. Never used after level 3 except as a lazy and rather over-the-top version of Spark.

Silver Crusade Contributor

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Using the void subschool as a balance comparison is, as you say, a bit extreme. I still have no idea how that made it through. If there's anything that deserves power-level errata, the void subschool would be pretty high up on my list. ^_^


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I look for ever opportunity to trade these abilities out. Since you can often trade them out. I do not think it is fare to call them fillers.

You have some many other options available to you that these are massively worthless.

Why i hate them. The do almost no damage. The penalty for not having the feats to shoot into melee are huge. They are elemental and many creatures will ignore them. they provoke twice being spell like. They are easy to find replacements for.

the fact there are tons of these crap shooter abilities it awkward. I would almost have anything else than this.


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Paradozen wrote:
The Mortonator wrote:
Long ago, man make ability. Ability become formula for lot of core. Ability suck. Still, cannot improve because of creeping of power. Sad day.
A feat chain could improve the d6+1/2 lv abilities. Start out with it adding a couple debuffs and maybe a +2 on damage. Have it end with respectable damage for a 9th level standard attack (maybe d8+8?), a respectable debuff (shaken or sickened) and doubled penalties v. School/bloodline/domain/spirit spells and abilities. Maybe not a trick for every fight, but I could see a -4 on saves v. Some tricks being worth a standard, especialy if some damage is done and it helps allies. It wouldn't be strictly optimal, but it would be worth print space IMO.

Wise man once say, meh feat to make bad ability meh is feat wasted.


Because at very low levels they can be effective and even useful. You can use those powers instead of wasting gold and carrying capacity on crossbows and bolts.
Because all those effects are usually the first level powers and like 1st level spells are eventually grown out of.
Because sometimes you want to use a magical attack that is flashy but less than lethal, like to show an enemy you have power but you don't want to waste a REAL spell on them to try to show that.
Because you do not want to waste a spell slot to kill a rat eating your backpack in camp at night.
Because your a mean gnome who likes to play painful pranks on his party members but does not want to kill them.
To use for interrogations while again not wasting your REAL magic.

And more.


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You basically just described cantrips.


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swoosh wrote:
You basically just described cantrips.

Except cantrips can be traded out and don't take up a real feature. >_>


Giving Wizards more and better low level powers to tempt them into extending the adventuring day seems like an interesting house rules experiment, but if Paizo were going to make a change here I'd guess that it would in fact be via feats (or perhaps archetypes) rather than a very late errata to the CRB.

Would a feat to increase the scaling to +1 per level be worthwhile? Would a feat to increase the damage to 1d6/level be worthwhile? If the second feat seems too strong perhaps the first feat could be a prereq for it. If the second feat seems too weak would adding uses per day or perhaps even making it at will make the power level satisfactory, or is even more damage needed?

I know many people will feel that making these powers effective shouldn't require a feat, but short of house rules that's probably pretty much how things are.

Liberty's Edge

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The utter lack of scaling on these features was a deliberate design choice - it's a feature, not a bug. 3.5 wizards and sorcerers spend a ridiculous portion of their first 3-4 levels as lousy crossbowmen rather than actual magic users. These class features were designed to change that, give low-level arcanists something to do in combat that made them still feel like magicians without actually powering them up beyond level 5 or so, where they did not and do not need the help. It's planned obsolescence to avoid widening the caster/martial divide even worse than it already is.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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I still don't see the actual problem here. If you like the power of a different bloodline or school better, take that different bloodline or school.

Remember when these were printed, things like using alchemical items as additional focus components was not a thing. In fact, here were your options:

PF: d6+1/2 lvl ranged touch attack
3.5: nothing

Heck in 3.5 sorcerers didn't even get bloodlines, and wizards didn't get school abilities just an extra spell each day.

Compared to getting nothing at all the abilities are pretty good.


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Shisumo wrote:
The utter lack of scaling on these features was a deliberate design choice - it's a feature, not a bug. 3.5 wizards and sorcerers spend a ridiculous portion of their first 3-4 levels as lousy crossbowmen rather than actual magic users. These class features were designed to change that, give low-level arcanists something to do in combat that made them still feel like magicians without actually powering them up beyond level 5 or so, where they did not and do not need the help. It's planned obsolescence to avoid widening the caster/martial divide even worse than it already is.

This line of thought is sunk by the fact that there are some features which are balls to the wall amazing from levels one to twenty. Why is stuff like a ray dealing 1d6 + 1/2 levels competing with +1 initiative/2 levels, a familiar, at will elemental damage swapping, swift action teleportation and the ability to circumvent truth magic? Even worse, those really good level 1 abilities are more often than not grouped up with other options that are also amazing.


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I used a fire damage ability like this once to start a bonfire. That's about it.


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Snowblind wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
The utter lack of scaling on these features was a deliberate design choice - it's a feature, not a bug. 3.5 wizards and sorcerers spend a ridiculous portion of their first 3-4 levels as lousy crossbowmen rather than actual magic users. These class features were designed to change that, give low-level arcanists something to do in combat that made them still feel like magicians without actually powering them up beyond level 5 or so, where they did not and do not need the help. It's planned obsolescence to avoid widening the caster/martial divide even worse than it already is.
This line of thought is sunk by the fact that there are some features which are balls to the wall amazing from levels one to twenty. Why is stuff like a ray dealing 1d6 + 1/2 levels competing with +1 initiative/2 levels, a familiar, at will elemental damage swapping, swift action teleportation and the ability to circumvent truth magic? Even worse, those really good level 1 abilities are more often than not grouped up with other options that are also amazing.

it's also still saying "blasters can't have nice things because other casters do." which is also a poor argument.


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SmiloDan wrote:
I think the developers didn't realize how much supporting material they would later be publishing. Otherwise, I think they would have made those abilities a little bit more modular, with room to grow. That said, there is still room to grow. They can make feats to increase the damage and add carrier effects (prone, pushed, sickened, shaken, stunned, etc.).

Dude really? They knew exactly how much they would be doing. The devs just arent good at fine tuning.

Also they basically never test stuff.

Liberty's Edge

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Snowblind wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
The utter lack of scaling on these features was a deliberate design choice - it's a feature, not a bug. 3.5 wizards and sorcerers spend a ridiculous portion of their first 3-4 levels as lousy crossbowmen rather than actual magic users. These class features were designed to change that, give low-level arcanists something to do in combat that made them still feel like magicians without actually powering them up beyond level 5 or so, where they did not and do not need the help. It's planned obsolescence to avoid widening the caster/martial divide even worse than it already is.
This line of thought is sunk by the fact that there are some features which are balls to the wall amazing from levels one to twenty. Why is stuff like a ray dealing 1d6 + 1/2 levels competing with +1 initiative/2 levels, a familiar, at will elemental damage swapping, swift action teleportation and the ability to circumvent truth magic? Even worse, those really good level 1 abilities are more often than not grouped up with other options that are also amazing.

It's not a "line of thought," it was the explicit reason given by Jason Bulmahn during the PFRPG playtest. The fact that not all of them actually balance doesn't change the fact that that's why they exist and don't scale.


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HyperMissingno wrote:
I'd be down for a redone sorcerer. Made the bloodlines like mysteries, give them bonus spells on even levels, give them some more skill points...just make sure to get rid of the ring of spell knowledge while you're at it.

Try this one.


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ryric wrote:
I still don't see the actual problem here. If you like the power of a different bloodline or school better, take that different bloodline or school.

We are. That's the problem.

Shisumo wrote:
It's not a "line of thought," it was the explicit reason given by Jason Bulmahn during the PFRPG playtest. The fact that not all of them actually balance doesn't change the fact that that's why they exist and don't scale.

And think of how much we have learned to now know that line of thought isn't good enough!

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