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Oh my god, this has taken forever!
So this is my first time making a guide, and I felt a little daunted undertaking the task. But I absolutely love the occultist and as such wanted to make a guide for them. Part of it was just to give the class more exposure, but part of it as well was to help some people understand the class, as some of the abilities are a bit hard to wrap your mind around.
As such, here is my first guide. I assume it is full of grammatical and spelling errors (though I read and re-read it repeatedly to get as many out as I could, and I will continue editing into the future.)
It doesn't contain much from Occult Origins or Ultimate Intrigue yet, those updates are coming, don't worry, but for now I'm going to rest a bit.
I hope the guide meets with the standards of the community. All art is owned by PAIZO, yadda yadda yadda.
P.S. If you want to send comments via E-mail (instead of responding to this post or shooting me a PM) please use my gmail account, qmpjjlp5@gmail.com
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Haven't finished a full read through but I did have a question ...
Was there a FAQ or something for the Reliquarian?
While the archetype changes Occultist spells from Psychic to Divine it doesn't change the casting stat. The only stat change is switching Mental Focus from int to wis.
Oh, wow, you're right. Totally didn't notice that it didn't change the casting stat as written. Man, if it doesn't Reliquarian sucks. Thanks for the heads up, I'll edit the guide to reflect that tomorrow.
Downside of writing a guide, I had to blow through so many spells and feats and stuff I was bound to miss something. Good catch.
Yeah, I asked that question on the boards like a week ago cause it seemed so off that everything else changed but the casting stat stayed the same.
As occultist has quickly become one of my favorite classes, so this interests me greatly.
The reliquarian in particular is to my liking, but if casting doesn't base off of wis, then it seems pretty MAD. I've tried finding work arounds, and just accepting that it wont be crazy optimized seems to be the way to go, though I'd love to be shown otherwise!
Something I like doing to help with the MAD issue is to keep dex low, and pick up full plate proficiency, transmutation's sudden speed focus power really offsets the slow movement, and you can even sleep in heavy armor if you dont mind picking up the community domain for calming touch.
I found something that seems wrong.
"She gains the abjuration and transmutation resonant powers, as well as the base powers. She also picks up one free extra abjuration and transmutation power because she is level 1 (she chooses Aegis for abjuration, and Burst of Speed for transmutation)"
She only gets one extra power from either. So aegis or burst of speed, not both.
Also I'm quite sure that if you pick transmutation twice, each implement can be a place to put focus and each implement will grant it's resonant ability. So you can do three transmutations, for str, dex, and con, if you put enough focus into each of the implements.
Also I'm quite sure that if you pick transmutation twice, each implement can be a place to put focus and each implement will grant it's resonant ability. So you can do three transmutations, for str, dex, and con, if you put enough focus into each of the implements.
Really? That's something I didnt know...
Looking over it now, I havnt found anything that mentions anything to the contrary yet, that's a massive oversight on my part if I didnt realise that!
I'm assuming you can benefit from two abilities with the same name then? I mean, if they are considered two abilities... this also intrigues me.
PS: I know it's early days for this guide, but it does come across as rather... "wall of text"-y between 5 and 7. might want to break that up or summarize a little more to get the point across more succinctly.
Something you should point out sometime, maybe in your support build too, is that you can hand off your implements to others and they get the resonant ability.
So you could power up an evocation implement and hand if off to the blaster sorcerer to boost him up more. Be a halfling but hand off the psychic glove of con+4 to your friendly barb.
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Also I'm quite sure that if you pick transmutation twice, each implement can be a place to put focus and each implement will grant it's resonant ability. So you can do three transmutations, for str, dex, and con, if you put enough focus into each of the implements.
Thanks for all the error correction guys, I'll edit it when I can.
Not sure if resonant bonuses from multiple implements of the same type stack. It doesn't say one way or another. All I found is this line buried in the implement section.
An occultist can select an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school.
Something you should point out sometime, maybe in your support build too, is that you can hand off your implements to others and they get the resonant ability.
So you could power up an evocation implement and hand if off to the blaster sorcerer to boost him up more. Be a halfling but hand off the psychic glove of con+4 to your friendly barb.
I thought about including that, but the 'about the occultist' section was "tl:dr-ish" already, and trading out a solid chunk of your class abilities and gimping your spellcasting didn't seem worth it to me. I might add a 'miscalany' section after spells where I can add stuff like that, weird tips and tricks that may be useful, but aren't going to be part of average play.
Not sure if resonant bonuses from multiple implements of the same type stack. It doesn't say one way or another. All I found is this line buried in the implement section.An occultist can select an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school.
Yeah that was my first reading of it, it's one of those "the rules dont say I cant gain it twice" things, which 90% of the time dont hold up, but there are stubborn exceptions.
I'm surprised you gave aura sight the highest rating, most occultist guides (from my memory) arent so kind.
That elf rating could be higher, bonus to dex and int, AND that amazing favored class bonus, with alternate racial traits giving such neat little perks, its a pretty good choice. Of course Half-Elf is arguably better, but dont overlook their pointy eared parent race.
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"in which case he needs one item for each set of spells gained from that school."
shows that you have two transmutation implements.
"He can divide this mental focus between his implements in any way he desires."
you can put mental focus into any of your implements, meaning you can put some into both of your transmutation implements.
"Once mental focus is invested inside an implement, the implement gains the resonant power of its implement school" each implements gain the resonant power of its implement school.
"The implement grants its resonant power to whoever possesses it"
If I have one giving a +2 to dex and one giving +2 to str then I get both as I'm the possessor of two implements, each with enough focus to cause them to each have a resonant power.
EDIT:
"Each time the occultist invests mental focus into a transmutation implement, the implement grants the following resonant power. The implement's bearer gains the benefits of this power until the occultist refreshes his focus."
"When you invest mental focus in the implement, select a physical ability score. The implement grants a +2 temporary enhancement bonus to that physical ability score"
So since I'm investing into two different implements it grants the resonant power, and as long as I pick different stats, I get the bonuses.
So since I'm investing into two different implements it grants the resonant power, and as long as I pick different stats, I get the bonuses.
I think the issue is that although you can get the implement twice, and the enhancement bonuses go to different stats, it is still gaining the same ability twice. I'm on the fence about it, I have yet to be convinced either way.
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All i know is that i just spent the last 20 mins solid writing my own review of all the race options pros and cons, with particular emphasis on the rating he's given humans compared to elves and half elves, only for the webpage to crash, so i'm pretty damn peeved.
Long story short, you've been too generous with humans compared to some other races, a wise investment of their racial trait would be extra mental focus because i'd advise picking that up on every build unless you've traded out at least two implements in your archetype. Elves and half elves on the other hand get the equivalent every 4 levels, making them leaps and bounds ahead of humans in many ways, even if humans do get a few more neat little alternate racial trait options.
Elves and half elves being anything less than blue or purple on ANY build is a travesty, who doesnt want a free extra mental focus feat every 4 levels?!
I was a lot less short and considerably more thorough the first time i typed this up, eh, crappy technology, what you gonna do.
A guide I hold in fairly high regard would be:
http://www.thedicedecide.com/mack-blog/pathfinder-occultist-guide-part-one/
I agree with his ratings of the races and his assessment of most of the class features, it might be a little more "combat optimisation" focused than your guide, as he generally doesnt rate non-combat skills overly highly (aura sight's standard action for example), but it's worth a look if you havnt already.
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All i know is that i just spent the last 20 mins solid writing my own review of all the race options pros and cons, with particular emphasis on the rating he's given humans compared to elves and half elves, only for the webpage to crash, so i'm pretty damn peeved.
Long story short, you've been too generous with humans compared to some other races, a wise investment of their racial trait would be extra mental focus because i'd advise picking that up on every build unless you've traded out at least two implements in your archetype. Elves and half elves on the other hand get the equivalent every 4 levels, making them leaps and bounds ahead of humans in many ways, even if humans do get a few more neat little alternate racial trait options.
I was a lot less short and considerably more thorough the first time i typed this up, eh, crappy technology, what you gonna do.
1st off, sorry your machine crashed.
2nd off: I agree, the halfling/elf bonus is REALLY damn good. Thing is, I'm trying very hard not to make this guide a 'telling people what to do' guide, and more of a 'presenting options' guide. You don't want to play an elf occultist? There are other options out there. I don't want to be one of those guys who says 'You have to play an elf or half-elf occultist or you are doing it wrong.'
Now, I may have dipped into that mindset once or twice (the longbow arguement comes to mind) but I will try to fix that later. I'm only human.
3rd I don't know about everyone else, but unless I am playing a fighter, I tend to get feat starved, and I really value that 'free any feat' that humans get. Doubly so because (except for battle hosts) the only freats you get are from normal feat progression. So that extra feat at first level looks mighty tempting. You don't agree? Fine, by all means, play an elf or half-elf. But for a melee occultist, using the extra feat to get toughness and putting FCB into hitpoints looks like a solid way to offset that d8 hitdie to me.
Occultists can learn spells from 8 different schools of magic, not seven.
1st off, sorry your machine crashed.
2nd off: I agree, the halfling/elf bonus is REALLY damn good. Thing is, I'm trying very hard not to make this guide a 'telling people what to do' guide, and more of a 'presenting options' guide. You don't want to play an elf occultist? There are other options out there. I don't want to be one of those guys who says 'You have to play an elf or half-elf occultist or you are doing it wrong.'
Now, I may have dipped into that mindset once or twice (the longbow arguement comes to mind) but I will try to fix that later. I'm only human.
3rd I don't know about everyone else, but unless I am playing a fighter, I tend to get feat starved, and I really value that 'free any feat' that humans get. Doubly so because (except for battle hosts) the only freats you get are from normal feat progression. So that extra feat at first level looks mighty tempting. You don't agree? Fine, by all means, play an elf or half-elf. But for a melee occultist, using the extra feat to get toughness and putting FCB into hitpoints looks like a solid way to offset that d8 hitdie to me.
1+2) No worries mate! I'm just pointing out that generally those 5 "extra mental focus feats" over the course of the occultist's career are pretty hard to pass up, as i say i was a lot more careful with my wording the first time i typed it up. If you're trying to remain impartial you shouldn't sugar coat the choices to make people feel better about their race choice, most people look at guides for optimisation advice after all.
3) I've found that feat starving is actually less of an issue on occultists, especially when reaching higher levels. Trying too hard to push them into the role of a fighter / barbarian isnt going to end well for them in comparison as they lack the "oomph" of the martial classes, and their standard toolset doesnt do much to remedy that. Of course a handful of feats certainly makes them serviceable in the role, and the "generalist" melee occultist/spellcaster route is where they really shine, granting much more utility than those martial classes. The only role I would say NEEDS the feats is the archer, for obvious reasons. Long story short: Playing a quick game where you dont expect to get past level 7 or playing an archer? Human could be the best choice. Otherwise, say ello to my pointy eared friends!
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One interpretation of the rules says that occultists only count spells on their 'list of spells known' as 'on their spell list.' If this is the case, then UMD becomes much more prominent, as players will not be able to activate wands or scrolls of spells they do not know.Each implement school adds one spell per spell level of that school of magic to the occultist’s spell list. No spells from any other school are considered to be on the occultist’s spell list until he selects the associated implement school. He can’t use spell trigger or spell completion magic items from unknown schools without succeeding at the appropriate Use Magic Device check.
Clearly it is the SCHOOL that is known or unknown when using magic items, not the individual spells within the school. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
edit: added "magic"
The problem there is actually in the paragraph you just quoted. "Each implement school adds one spell per spell level of that school of magic to the occultist's spell list/. Note, it says SPELL LIST not SPELLS KNOWN Most people think that this is a misprint, but Paizo hasn't weighed in on it yet, thus I included it in the guide. I know I have some friends who view it in this more restrictive way.
ALSO, finished with the first round of edits. Thanks everyone for helping me make this guide more accurate. Like I said, first guide I've made.
ALSO, finished with the first round of edits. Thanks everyone for helping me make this guide more accurate. Like I said, first guide I've made.
Nicely done, and for a first guide it goes into a surprising amount of detail.
I'd love to get a definitive answer on whether or not you gain resonant powers once for every implement (allowing you to get dex AND str benefit from transmutation for instance). I think i'll dip into rules questions to poke around for evidence either way.
So far my understanding of accessing transmutation resonant powers more than once:
Every day, the occultist selects one item from that school's list to be his implement for the day for each implement school he knows.
This means one item (implement) represents one of the 8 implement schools (eg transmutation) at any given time, so you can only gain one resonant power from transmutation implements for each of the 8 schools you have access to at any given time, though you can alternate between which bonus it gives you (or which transmutation implement you use) at the start of each day "When you invest mental focus in the implement".
Selecting a second transmutation implement cant give you access to the transmutation school AGAIN, because theres only THE transmutation school and you already have access to it. Selecting an additional transmutation implement does give you extra spells though, as indicated in the occultist class description:
An occultist can select an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school.
Hope that helps, and i'll let you know if anything comes up to contradict this.
It explains why no other occultist guide mentions tripling up on resonant powers too! :P
Oh, worth noting that if one occultist with the transmutation implement school gives a different occultist with the transmutation implement school his implement, he might be able to gain the effects of both, providing they dont provide the +2 to the same stat.
But that's a pretty bizarre situation... Full occultist party trading implements, anyone? xD
Curious why Tome Eater is missing from the archetypes; it's easily my favorite. Plus, you can pick up Scribe Scroll for an easy and cheap way to feed yourself some extra Mental Focus (not to mention a great way to utilize all those scrolls you find on your adventures.)
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Curious why Tome Eater is missing from the archetypes; it's easily my favorite. Plus, you can pick up Scribe Scroll for an easy and cheap way to feed yourself some extra Mental Focus (not to mention a great way to utilize all those scrolls you find on your adventures.)
Tome eater isn't missing, I just honestly can't get a good bead on it. That's why it's grey. Gives up a lot, gets some stuff in return, dunno. Haven't heard stories of how it works and haven't played one myself.
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Curious why Tome Eater is missing from the archetypes; it's easily my favorite. Plus, you can pick up Scribe Scroll for an easy and cheap way to feed yourself some extra Mental Focus (not to mention a great way to utilize all those scrolls you find on your adventures.)
Agreed, it trades out one implement set (you can't really max how much Mental Focus in all of them at later levels anyway), and the rather situational Magic Circle line of class features for the ability to replenish your expendable resources. Excellent on long adventuring days when you have implement powers that your character uses often.
Curious why Tome Eater is missing from the archetypes; it's easily my favorite. Plus, you can pick up Scribe Scroll for an easy and cheap way to feed yourself some extra Mental Focus (not to mention a great way to utilize all those scrolls you find on your adventures.)Tome eater isn't missing, I just honestly can't get a good bead on it. That's why it's grey. Gives up a lot, gets some stuff in return, dunno. Haven't heard stories of how it works and haven't played one myself.
I'm considering playing one in our Strange Aeons game, for the sole purpose of dying horrifically (or turning into a new terrifying villain) when I say, "I eat the Necronimicon."
One item of note: Confusion is not a negative emotion/fear effect, so you can still cast while confused.
I got the impression from reading through the implements section that you weren't really considering a number of the implement focus powers when rating them. For example, I have watched an occultist use the Mind Eye power to completely scout a dungeon with zero chance of detection. It might not be a straight numeric bonus, but that's what tends to be a more impactful choice - the ability to change the narrative of combat with effective scouting is HUGE. Danger Sight is a fabulous get out of jail free card for some things. Sudden Insight provides some stellar benefits, as well. As such, I rate the Divination implement as a solid blue, particularly since the resonant power is most likely going to be used to overcome the challenges of being a low-light race, assuming Elf or Half-Elf as your race choice.
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One item of note: Confusion is not a negative emotion/fear effect, so you can still cast while confused.
I got the impression from reading through the implements section that you weren't really considering a number of the implement focus powers when rating them. For example, I have watched an occultist use the Mind Eye power to completely scout a dungeon with zero chance of detection. It might not be a straight numeric bonus, but that's what tends to be a more impactful choice - the ability to change the narrative of combat with effective scouting is HUGE. Danger Sight is a fabulous get out of jail free card for some things. Sudden Insight provides some stellar benefits, as well. As such, I rate the Divination implement as a solid blue, particularly since the resonant power is most likely going to be used to overcome the challenges of being a low-light race, assuming Elf or Half-Elf as your race choice.
First off, thanks for the info, I'll look into it.
Second off, remember that I have already written 37 pages of text here. It was a lot for me to go over and then rate. I may not have payed as much attention as I should to some areas, and I'll work on that. It's just that the occultist has SO much stuff to look over that it's easy to miss stuff or dismiss abilities that are actually pretty good.
That is absolutely fair.
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Angelkin Aasimar have bonuses to Strength and Charisma, not it. Peri Aasimar have bonuses to Int and Charisma.
The only strength & int races that I know are Male Lashunta, some Skin Walkers and dual-talent humans.
Hmm
Never said it gave a bonus to int.
What I said is that a racial +2 to str with no downsides is good for a melee character, and a spell-like ability to get a further +2, on top of a bunch of resistances and immunity to a bunch of stuff is really good. Sure, you have to pay for, say, 16 int (10 BP) but really, it's a really good option for any melee class, melee occultists included.
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Aasimar (Angelkin): A bonus to Int and no downsides is great, in addition to being a native outsider (which makes you immune to Hold Person and the like) but a bonus to Strength through Angelkin with a FURTHER bonus to strength through Alter Self 1/day is even better. Oh, and some energy resist on top of all that? Don't mind if I do!
The bolding is mine, but you might want to correct the statement.
Hmm
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UPDATES:
@ Several people: So, I don't know why you think I did not include battle host as an archetype. It's there, it's just grey because I honestly don't know how I feel about it or how it works out. However, I have ranked it as 'green' as a caster-based archetype for its ability to recoup mental focus by eating scrolls. However, because it gives up so much versatility for that, I honestly don't know how I feel about it from a good/bad point of view, especially for archery or transmutation builds.
@Hmm: I see where you're coming from. I fixed the grammar to better reflect what I meant to say.
@Ms. Pleiades: You, Sir or Madam, win the internets. I just . . . Yes.
@Serisan Updated the Divination section with your suggestions, turning it from orange-green to full green.
@Gulthor: Does anyone even know what strange Aeons will be about? Has there been ANY information released about it other than it's name?
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I do have a question on how aura sight replaces the need for detect magic. It would seem that detect magic would still be good to spot magical things of interest that have no alignment component. Aura sight itself can only spot magical spells that have an alignment component but not general magic. At least based on my understanding of the spell which says that it acts as a detect evil/good/chaos/law spell.
it is worth mentioning the combination Bruising Intellect traits and Dazzling Display feats for Occultist.
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I do have a question on how aura sight replaces the need for detect magic. It would seem that detect magic would still be good to spot magical things of interest that have no alignment component. Aura sight itself can only spot magical spells that have an alignment component but not general magic. At least based on my understanding of the spell which says that it acts as a detect evil/good/chaos/law spell.
*Reads the spell description again*
*Re-Reads it**Reads it a third time*
Well. I honestly thought that spell gave you super detect magic. I dunno why I thought that, but I did. I guess I'm just an idiot. I'll turn in my card and never make another guide again.
I . . . I feel super embarrassed with how many mistakes I've made on this guide.
@Gulthor: Does anyone even know what strange Aeons will be about? Has there been ANY information released about it other than it's name?
Oh my, yes, yes. It's confirmed to be using the Cthulhu-mythos creatures that exist in the PF setting, and more importantly, in the Strange Aeons speculation thread, James Jacobs all but confirmed a theory I posed:
In the Cthulhu mythos, the Nameless City and the Necronimicon are discovered in the year 1921. Also note that the words "Strange Aeons" first appear in the short story, "the Nameless City."
Add to that the fact that within the PF universe, Cthulhu lives *on Earth*, sleeping somewhere under the Atlantic in R'lyeh, and you have a lot of signs pointing towards an adventure that will at least partially take place on 1920's Earth and is likely to utilize the Necronimicon.
We also know that the first adventure will begin with the party waking up inside a mental asylum with amnesia.
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Well. I honestly thought that spell gave you super detect magic. I dunno why I thought that, but I did. I guess I'm just an idiot. I'll turn in my card and never make another guide again.
I . . . I feel super embarrassed with how many mistakes I've made on this guide.
Don't fret. It's a good guide for a complicated class. Without even looking, I'm sure all the Guides go through this kind of collective rough draft and editing process. It's nice you're listening and staying involved, so I wouldn't take any criticism as anything negative. You're doing solid work, we just want to help.
It's awesome that you made this guide, but I noticed what might be another issue. In the skills section, you don't weigh in on the Occult Skill Unlocks. I don't know if this was an oversight, but if it wasn't, you should at least include a short blurb dismissing them.
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It's awesome that you made this guide, but I noticed what might be another issue. In the skills section, you don't weigh in on the Occult Skill Unlocks. I don't know if this was an oversight, but if it wasn't, you should at least include a short blurb dismissing them.
The occult skill unlocks are an optional rule, and I wanted to focus on getting the big stuff out of the way with the class first. I'm eventually going to make an eighth section called 'miscalany' that covers the occult skill unlocks, some tips and exploits, and the 'hand off your implement to share bonuses' thing.
Just waiting until I get enough material to warrant the new section.
So far my understanding of accessing transmutation resonant powers more than once-
-i'll let you know if anything comes up to contradict this.
Good news! (sort of) Although not confirmed (and certain non-core sources still stating the contrary, such as hero lab) I've been convinced that it may well be possible to gain the same resonant power more than once, specifically transmutation's +2 to str, dex or con. (though not in the same stat, obviously, because enhancement bonuses dont stack.)
It's not 100% confirmed, but it certainly has a large enough backing in the community to be considered as the popular opinion until proven otherwise.
So far my understanding of accessing transmutation resonant powers more than once-
-i'll let you know if anything comes up to contradict this.Good news! (sort of) Although not confirmed (and certain non-core sources still stating the contrary, such as hero lab) I've been convinced that it may well be possible to gain the same resonant power more than once, specifically transmutation's +2 to str, dex or con. (though not in the same stat, obviously, because enhancement bonuses dont stack.)
It's not 100% confirmed, but it certainly has a large enough backing in the community to be considered as the popular opinion until proven otherwise.
Any chance you could provide a link to a discussion?
Any chance you could provide a link to a discussion?
Apologies, I had meant to: Link
It took a long time of me playing devil's advocate and scrutinising everything, but I'm pretty happy with it making the most sense that you can. Of course confirmation by developer or specific FAQ would be great to confirm it, but we can't have everything.
(Apologies it's not very concise, we had a few people popping into the discussion that hadn't grasped everything being said, and even more people arguing unrelated tangents, ok, 90% of it is the same few tangents. After one false conclusion, regarding the validity of hero labs now that paizo has more of an active collaboration with them, I become fairly convinced that hero labs has a bug in its functionality and that my matching interpretation was also wrong. Thus, my update post in this thread.)
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Are you going to rate the focus powers at all? You have taken the time to rate the spells available but not the focus powers (and there are less of them!)
Also, with the release of the magic tactics toolbox there is a feat that lets Occultists make better use of item mastery feats including extra activations from them using mental focus.
Any chance you will look at those?
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*shrug* The one time I played an Occultist, I didn't take Necromancy at all in 15 levels since it didn't really fit the character. You can do without it.