Sorry, I have been through this too many times. I have many examples, for every single skill.
I mean that. When this came up before, I created as many hilariously horrible examples as I could, for every single skill.
I figure it should be well set in stone how much I despise such a houserule.
No hard feelings.
Each to their own.
Dude, no need to apologize, that was hilarious! I'd love to see an entire thread of the community making "5% of the time" jokes.
It blew my mind when I learned that sleep has a casting time of 1 round.
an APL equal cr fight is supposed to be a fairly easy fight using up like 25% of resources or something like that, APL-2 CR is a joke fight. a cr+3 is supposed to be a difficult fight. So you throwing CR8 at a person who'd be in a party pulling CR10, yeah it'll be really easy. And the kind of fights you'd have if you didn't have WBL.
CR9 ac = 23 this is supposed to be an easy fight
CR11 ac = 25 this is a fight that is in the party's favor
CR13 ac = 28 this is supposed to be a pretty difficult fight
Only for full BAB archers. My poor inquisitor has to wait for 15 lvls!Forgetting that shooting through any other creature's space gives your target soft cover. And then complaining about how strong archery is.At at 11th level, this goes away completely.
Or at 6th level on Ranger via Combat Style.
I would say encumbrance tends to be overlooked. How exactly is a Fighter with 7 str going to carry all his equipment. Not to mention money as well. Using Herolab a character I had built with a 12 str was heavily encumbered. Carrying around 5K of go will do that.
You can convert your money to gems or other trade goods at no appreciable loss
@hiiamtom
I feel I may have been unclear about how I use WBL...
I will provide an example illustrating the point I have been trying to make:
If a character dies in my game, I do not consult WBL chart, because I do not strictly track character wealth. I figure out the AVERAGE wealth of the party and make a judgement based on that.
Consumables are taken into consideration with this, as a high level character may have consumed TENS OF THOUSANDS OF GOLD worth of potions/wands/scrolls etc.
WBL even talks about this.
It would be unfair to allow a new character to come into play with, say MORE money than the current party members have, right?
This theoretical new character also might be made with NO consumable items at all!
I hope you see where I'm going with this...
Unless you are literally tracking every single coin in and out (including consumables after they have been used), not allowing party members to divide loot on their own terms (what's that? Random treasure gave a +5 item to a level one party? No one can use it if WBL is a rule!) and re-balancing gear every time someone levels, then you must admit to WBL being a guideline.
Rules are adhered to, all the time.
Guidelines are things you consult to make choices that aren't clear.
Enforcing WBL as a rule would be an absolute nightmare that would totally preclude player choice in dividing up loot, as the numbers listed (if they are a rule) MUST be adhered to.
5gp over your limit? Guess your character has to drop coins in-game because... reasons.
Or are you 1000 under what the chart suggests? Does money just APPEAR in your bag?
What if you find one massive item and everyone agrees it should go to the Fighter? Guess he better sell off the rest of his gear and hope it works with his limit.
Treating it as a rule leads to INSANE situations in the game that really can't be explained in a roleplaying context.
Me saying that I use it as a guideline does not mean I'm ignoring it.
I maintain balance in my party, and a new character introduced at high levels will likely have slightly LESS money than existing characters, to account for consumed items the other characters used to get to where they are.
Last point.
If you treat WBL as a rule, then do you, as a GM, tell people where the dial is set at the start of the game?
(Low, regular, high magic).
Cause if you change mid-campaign, you will have to, on the spot, alter gear. As a player, if we started low magic, then wound up in high magic, if you enforced WBL, I would absolutely scream my head off till I got my 4x existing wealth.
But only if WBL was a rule.
Which it isn't.
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The default assumptions seem to include:
Party of four PCs
A balance of martials and arcane and divine casters
15 point buy
Moderate optimization / system mastery
Four encounters a day
Most encounters with a CR between APL-1 and APL+3
Standard WBL
Access to magic shops
Together, these lead to vaguely balanced play.
As soon as you depart significantly from any of these assumptions, you need to start making adjustments in some other department to compensate - they are helpful guides that let you know how far you are from the baseline.
And i saw people acting like they can sunder spell component pouch that is under Wizard coat (and they can't see it )Spell components. Eschew Materials is a feat, but every Wizard I have seen plays as if they got the feat for free...There's an item called Spell Component Pouch, doing about the same thing. Granted, you need the item at hand (retreving material is part of the casting of the spell, afaik).Which is great.
Or they could take the feat.
But I see people acting like they don't need to worry about spell components, even though the rules say they do.
That would be a hidden item, made concealed from sight using Sleight of Hand, and it takes a move action to retrieve such an item. That means you turn any spell cast with a material component from a standard action to full-round action and are probably incapable of casting full-round action spells. Also, by retrieving said item, it'd be easy for an onlooker to roll Perception to spot where you reached to grab the components.
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And i saw people acting like they can sunder spell component pouch that is under Wizard coat (and they can't see it )Spell components. Eschew Materials is a feat, but every Wizard I have seen plays as if they got the feat for free...There's an item called Spell Component Pouch, doing about the same thing. Granted, you need the item at hand (retreving material is part of the casting of the spell, afaik).Which is great.
Or they could take the feat.
But I see people acting like they don't need to worry about spell components, even though the rules say they do.
Where does Seoni hide hers?
Wait, don't answer that...
Hiding it so well that it cannot be sundered would be impressive, especially since you still need access to it to cast spells. Certainly after you cast one spell, or even while you're casting your first spell and reaching into the pouch (under your coat), anyone will now know where it is and can sunder it - if you can get to it to cast spells, an enemy's sword can get to it to destroy it.
And i saw people acting like they can sunder spell component pouch that is under Wizard coat (and they can't see it )Spell components. Eschew Materials is a feat, but every Wizard I have seen plays as if they got the feat for free...There's an item called Spell Component Pouch, doing about the same thing. Granted, you need the item at hand (retreving material is part of the casting of the spell, afaik).Which is great.
Or they could take the feat.
But I see people acting like they don't need to worry about spell components, even though the rules say they do.
Where does Seoni hide hers?
Wait, don't answer that...
Hiding it so well that it cannot be sundered would be impressive, especially since you still need access to it to cast spells. Certainly after you cast one spell, or even while you're casting your first spell and reaching into the pouch (under your coat), anyone will now know where it is and can sunder it - if you can get to it to cast spells, an enemy's sword can get to it to destroy it.
Well for starters, she's a sorceress, so...yeah.
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Honestly, I find Spell Pouch sundering to be horridly meta gamey...
Why?
If someone is shooting at you do you aim for the gun or do you aim for the shooter?
Same thing... if you can sunder, then you are in range to target the caster himself... and most people would aim to kill the wizard instead of weakening him, unless the enemies are run like they are disposable numbers and have no thought pf living beyond their encounter. If played like real people, they would most likely shoot the threat...
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Honestly, I find Spell Pouch sundering to be horridly meta gamey...
Why?
If someone is shooting at you do you aim for the gun or do you aim for the shooter?
Same thing... if you can sunder, then you are in range to target the caster himself... and most people would aim to kill the wizard instead of weakening him, unless the enemies are run like they are disposable numbers and have no thought pf living beyond their encounter. If played like real people, they would most likely shoot the threat...
Because the wizard almost certainly has a lot more hit points than the pouch. And the pouch almost certainly doesn't have stoneskin or some similar DR, temp hp, or AC boosting magic on it. And sunders can be done in place of a normal attack, unlike most other combat maneuvers.
Honestly, I find Spell Pouch sundering to be horridly meta gamey...
Why?
If someone is shooting at you do you aim for the gun or do you aim for the shooter?
Same thing... if you can sunder, then you are in range to target the caster himself... and most people would aim to kill the wizard instead of weakening him, unless the enemies are run like they are disposable numbers and have no thought pf living beyond their encounter. If played like real people, they would most likely shoot the threat...
I totally agree with this, how would a typical bad guy even know the difference between a spell component pouch and the various other belt pouches an adventurer has??
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I totally agree with this, how would a typical bad guy even know the difference between a spell component pouch and the various other belt pouches an adventurer has??Honestly, I find Spell Pouch sundering to be horridly meta gamey...
Why?
If someone is shooting at you do you aim for the gun or do you aim for the shooter?
Same thing... if you can sunder, then you are in range to target the caster himself... and most people would aim to kill the wizard instead of weakening him, unless the enemies are run like they are disposable numbers and have no thought pf living beyond their encounter. If played like real people, they would most likely shoot the threat...
It's the pouch he keeps digging into every time he casts a spell. :)
You are forgetting common sense.
There's no such thing. What you mean to say, I think, is "DM fiat" (i.e., "what seems to make sense to the DM"), not "common sense."
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If someone is shooting at you do you aim for the gun or do you aim for the shooter?
If they guy is shooting at me from inside a tank, but he somehow left ALL of his ammunition outside the tank, then I probably would go for the ammo.
In a game system where even wizards can get ridiculous amounts of HP that represent fatigue, dodging, ignoring wounds, etc., then you can really only count on one-shotting very low level wizards. But I can just about always one-shot their spell component pouch, even if the wizard is 20th level.
In a different game system, where, say, a 20th level wizard might still only have 10 HP (two decent longsword hits, not counting STR bonus) but might have tons of armor and/or damage reduction and/or other magical protection to keep him alive, and if that magic extended to his equipment too, then I would absolutely try to hit the wizard rather than his pouch.
I totally agree with this, how would a typical bad guy even know the difference between a spell component pouch and the various other belt pouches an adventurer has??Honestly, I find Spell Pouch sundering to be horridly meta gamey...
Why?
If someone is shooting at you do you aim for the gun or do you aim for the shooter?
Same thing... if you can sunder, then you are in range to target the caster himself... and most people would aim to kill the wizard instead of weakening him, unless the enemies are run like they are disposable numbers and have no thought pf living beyond their encounter. If played like real people, they would most likely shoot the threat...
On top of that, if the caster was really smart they would be wearing multiple component pouches. If they wanted to get cute and save some gold/weight, they could wear some dummy pouches too. By the time a melee character gets them all, they could have killed the caster twice over.
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If they have 1 pouch and some decoys, then the first time they reach into the real pouch and throw some flaming bat guano at me, I'll know which pouch to sunder.
Yes, a smart caster brings more than spell component pouch and even wears more than one at the same time, just to prevent this problem. Just like a smart fighter brings more than one primary weapon in case the one he's using gets sundered or disarmed or stolen. Same thing, really.
TL;dr: don't put all your magic eggs in one basket.
And i saw people acting like they can sunder spell component pouch that is under Wizard coat (and they can't see it )Spell components. Eschew Materials is a feat, but every Wizard I have seen plays as if they got the feat for free...There's an item called Spell Component Pouch, doing about the same thing. Granted, you need the item at hand (retreving material is part of the casting of the spell, afaik).Which is great.
Or they could take the feat.
But I see people acting like they don't need to worry about spell components, even though the rules say they do.
If it is stowed somewhere that would take an action to retrieve it, it would be unfair for someone to sunder it, like you said, they couldn't see it.
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Honestly, I find Spell Pouch sundering to be horridly meta gamey...
Why?
If someone is shooting at you do you aim for the gun or do you aim for the shooter?
Same thing... if you can sunder, then you are in range to target the caster himself... and most people would aim to kill the wizard instead of weakening him, unless the enemies are run like they are disposable numbers and have no thought pf living beyond their encounter. If played like real people, they would most likely shoot the threat...
It's not metagamey at all, it's a smart martial trying to survive a caster!
Of course, it could be a Sorcerer who uses the material component pouch in the hopes of exactly this... the first hit being wasted. :D
It's just good tactics.
You know, I'm not sure about this digging around in a spell component pouch in combat at all.
You already know before hand exactly which spells you've prepared and exactly what components you need - I think, if for example, I'd prepared 3 fireballs, I'd have three twists of paper or similar, each containing exactly what I needed for each spell, and I'd pin them inside a pocket, or to my belt, or coat lapel, or somewhere else immediately to hand.
And going up from 1st level and starting with a choice of only a few spells, reaching for the right component would be as much a reflex as putting your hand to your dagger (or other weapon of choice)
Through book three of Iron Gods, there is nothing like that. There might be something later, but since our group hasn't gotten that far, I haven't purchased anything past The Choking Tower. That books takes the party to level 9.But pay close attention - in many AP's there is one or more built in "outs" for the characters over the course of the adventure to have opportunities to restock. I haven't cracked open my copies of Iron Gods yet (may eventually want to run it - but it is one that I might also like to play in) but for example ** spoiler omitted **
Access to limited magic shopsThat is the default in pretty much every published AP.
I have to agree with this.
For example, I'm running Iron Gods right now. The only city within reasonable traveling distance (not counting Teleport because the party is all from Numeria and hasn't visited any cities outside of the nation to make Teleporting reliable) that has a decent sized 75% find GP amount is Chesed, and that city specifically states the economy is so messed up from all the Crusaders traveling through & buying equipment to fight the Worldwound that everything costs 150% normal.
Pretty much every other city or town has very, very limited magic item availability.
Book 1 definitely has placed to purchase equipment and magic items. You start in a crafting town! But it's also low level, so kind of irrelevant. Book 2 kind of has it, with Dinvaya. She doesn't really have much on hand, but she's there to be able to trade or fix equipment. But at the same time, book 2 is supposed to be desolate when it comes to equipment. However, at the end of book 2 and on your way to book 3, you have to pass through the starting town which is full of crafters. This makes a perfect spot to re-equip and get magic/tech items at level 7-8 before moving on to book 3. Additionally, the AP is paced in such a way that you have time between books to be able to craft and/or commission items.
I've noticed that people tend to ignore costly spell components below a certain threshold.
Hi hwalsh, a few things:
For skills, you are comparing regular baseball players to obscene superhumans. A more accurate comparison would be watching a gold glove player and see if they mess up something easy. It will not happen all the time, if at allYou don't seem to understand how the cr system works. Cr = party level is an easy fight, basically 100% chance of winning. Cr+4 is actually a fair fight, where a pc might die or the party might lose ~50/50 odds.
since when would you expect a ~200% chance of party wipes a day?
50/50 per encounter 4 encounters a day amounts to just that, and good luck ever healing to full hp with that party, what is the point of magic if you can't heal up without using potions or CLW after just about every encounter?
Not quite. .5^4=.0625 or 6.25% chance of winning all that. Meaning 93.75% chance of losing. But these aren't just repeated tests, so it ends up being worse. Still less than 100%, though.
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Not quite. .5^4=.0625 or 6.25% chance of winning all that. Meaning 93.75% chance of losing. But these aren't just repeated tests, so it ends up being worse. Still less than 100%, though.Hi hwalsh, a few things:
For skills, you are comparing regular baseball players to obscene superhumans. A more accurate comparison would be watching a gold glove player and see if they mess up something easy. It will not happen all the time, if at allYou don't seem to understand how the cr system works. Cr = party level is an easy fight, basically 100% chance of winning. Cr+4 is actually a fair fight, where a pc might die or the party might lose ~50/50 odds.
since when would you expect a ~200% chance of party wipes a day?
50/50 per encounter 4 encounters a day amounts to just that, and good luck ever healing to full hp with that party, what is the point of magic if you can't heal up without using potions or CLW after just about every encounter?
I'm still confused on how he got that "cr+4 = 50/50 fight" is equivalent to stating that a party should be facing a cr+4 four times a day.
and good luck ever healing to full hp with that party, what is the point of magic if you can't heal up without using potions or CLW after just about every encounter?
Ehmm... after level ~2 the party has wands of CLW and therefore is at full hit points at the beginning of each encounter with the very very rare exception where there are chain encounters.
I'm still confused on how he got that "cr+4 = 50/50 fight" is equivalent to stating that a party should be facing a cr+4 four times a day.Not quite. .5^4=.0625 or 6.25% chance of winning all that. Meaning 93.75% chance of losing. But these aren't just repeated tests, so it ends up being worse. Still less than 100%, though.
My point is that given a party is expected to have 3-4 encounters a day, any 50/50 fight is going to make survivability of the party for the day less than 50%, not even taking into account sub-optimal conditions like sleepers during night raids or not being all power gamers in the party(as builds based on roleplaying and not optimized or players not good at teamwork are relatively common). not all gamers(or adventurers) are suicidal, CR=Encounter x 4 a day is therefore most representative of party level, not CR+4 every encounter once a day.
edit: thanks for the correction though Berinor, I knew it wasn't really 200% but couldn't remember how to do the math today.
Again. How does any of this relate to what CWheezy said? He said nothing about the numbers of encounters per day.
Another thing I'm curious about: where does this 2-4 encounters per day come from? I can't find it in the PRD. Is it some sort of hold out from 3.X or is it just an engrained idea of bad encounter design in the gaming community?