You're Doing It Wrong


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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blackbloodtroll wrote:

Sorry, I have been through this too many times. I have many examples, for every single skill.

I mean that. When this came up before, I created as many hilariously horrible examples as I could, for every single skill.

I figure it should be well set in stone how much I despise such a houserule.

No hard feelings.

Each to their own.

Dude, no need to apologize, that was hilarious! I'd love to see an entire thread of the community making "5% of the time" jokes.

Contributor

It blew my mind when I learned that sleep has a casting time of 1 round.


alexd1976 wrote:
...

Christ, I understand your GMing style based on your other comments. I never criticized your GM styling. I also don't believe you would literally laugh at someone talking to you at your table in the way you describe either.

You came into the conversation where I was saying players should not have less items on them than a character that dies and replaces them without saying anything else but you would laugh at a player for suggesting that the GM maintain WBL. What I criticized was the idea that a player asking to stay with WBL is something you would laugh at. You then are confused how I didn't read your mind and continued the conversation thread. Good on you for going above WBL, in my opinion it makes the game better - as I said.

However, you have maintained that you would laugh at a player for saying they want to stay within WBL. You use words to "demand" to exaggerate this straw player's attitude you made, and if I am wrong that you would not laugh at them because you think they are entitled and trying to get some advantage then why are you laughing at them again? Because they are following all indicated math in the game, and not just leaning on "GMs can do whatever they want"? Because that is your argument, that the gamemastering section leans heavily on soft modifiers like "might" or "maybe". The bestiary doesn't care.

I'm also not being aggressive, I'm challenging your assertions. I never insulted your GM style, and the only thing I've been salty about if you saying you would laugh at a player in regards to this subject. I immediately back off assuming your GM style was actually like that when you explained it more.

Matthew Downie wrote:
That assumes that the PCs are fighting "CR-appropriate" monsters. CR is also a guideline. Maybe the PCs are fighting weaker monsters, or NPCs with no magic loot.

That was my original point. If you adjust WBL, you need to adjust encounter design. I even said that in what you quoted...


hiiamtom wrote:

@alexd976:

I know what the gamemastering section of the CRB says, and if you think Pathfinder is designed at all to be a low magic game that's your deal. Sure, they wrote that the game can provide higher or lower wealth, but the bestiary disagrees. It's also written in there that players should face a mixture of high reward NPC encounters and low reward monster encounters to balance around WBL, that no PC should have an individual item worth 50% of the WBL or more, and later supplements discuss methods to simplify WBL tracking and adjusting NPC WBL for encounter design. Everything ever written in the gamemastery section is built around "mights" and "maybes", but that doesn't make the entire thing just hand-wavey guidelines to be ignored.

And you are also positioning your arguments against it from the perspective of hating your players, which is a bad position to push. If your players as a group come to you and ask for larger rewards or adjustments to the game, you should listen and discuss (like adults) how to build a story and make it enjoyable for everyone. When your defense is "if a player pointed out that we were behind WBL, I would laugh at them" then how am I supposed to take your response as well intentioned?

As far as crafting and consumables go, you are the GM. You decide all future rewards and loot from encounters. If your players are carrying their WBL in scrolls they hand crafted, then they are carrying scrolls they hand crafted. It still has a value, and it's not hard to track that value. If they use those scrolls, then they need to use loot to build that stock back up or fill in the WBL gap with something else. I don't see the difficulty in adjusting a reward from a fight from 1000GP to 500GP or 1500GP when it is needed. You can just ignore everything your players own and do whatever you want, but if you do that why do you think a player asking for a better WBL adjustment is so out of line? You trust players to not be powergamers when it's on your terms, but asking for something is...

Because you are assuming that the only way to make something "CR Appropriate" is a single bad guy.

A single level 10 PC isn't meant to take on a CR 10 monster. 4 level 10 PCs are.

A single level 10 PC is considered to have an APL of 8-9, not 10.

So, lets compare the BAB of a level 10 Paladin (+10/+5) to the BAB of a CR 8 challenge. Using the Bestiary I have near me...

Avorial - CR 9 - AC 25
Assuming a level 10 Paladin, BAB +10/+5, assuming a non-assisted character, +5 is a valid bonus, so +15/+10, a 50% chance to hit, which is perfectly in line...

(Yes, I know an Avorial is a good aligned creature, I am just picking them by CR atm)

Animate Dream - CR 9 - AC 20
Yeah, level 10 Paladin could do this...

Arumvorax - CR 9 - AC 23
Yeah, level 10 can handle that AC...

Axiomite - CR 8 - AC 21
Not seeing why they need magical help here...

Goliath Stag Beetle - CR 8 - AC 21
...

Bodak - CR 9 - AC 21
See my point?

Titan Centipede - CR 9 - AC 21
Just to put the exclamation point on it.

Don't try to justify WBL by the enemy CR's. That is flawed thinking.

If WBL was hard and fast then the AC would look more like this:

Level 10 Paladin with WBL

Strength 21 (+5)
Augmented Strength 23 (+6)
(Belt of Strength +2)

Magic Weapon +2
BAB +10/+5

Converted BAB (discounting feats of course) +18/+13

Against an Arumvorax as Written, a CR 9, the intended opponent for a lone level 10 PC, which has an AC of 23, the Paladin would need to roll a 5/10 to hit it

Heck, my Megadin wouldn't even have to roll half the time...
Megadin Strength 21 (+5)
Augmented Strength 27 (+8)
((Bloodrage (+4 Strength), Belt of Strength +2))

Class Advantage (Symbolic Weapon) +2
Longsword +2
Weapon Focus Longsword (+1)
BAB +10/+5

Total Bonus to Hit: +23/+18

Vs AC 23? I need to roll more than a 1. Unless I power Attack, then I need to roll a 2 or better... That kind of shoots the WBL is assumed theory right in the jibbly bits.

If WBL is assumed then that same creature would need an AC minimum of 28 to be considered balanced. (Balanced, FYI is, can the class hit it on a roll of a 10.)

((FYI - The Megadin is a specialized multi-class Paladin. At level 10 it is Paladin 4, Bloodrager 1, Sentinel 5))


an APL equal cr fight is supposed to be a fairly easy fight using up like 25% of resources or something like that, APL-2 CR is a joke fight. a cr+3 is supposed to be a difficult fight. So you throwing CR8 at a person who'd be in a party pulling CR10, yeah it'll be really easy. And the kind of fights you'd have if you didn't have WBL.
CR9 ac = 23 this is supposed to be an easy fight
CR11 ac = 25 this is a fight that is in the party's favor
CR13 ac = 28 this is supposed to be a pretty difficult fight


That is a lot of cheery picking to make your point.

4 CR9 PCs, 1 CR9 monster - a normal encounter

Your moderately optimized paladin would be swinging for +17/+12, and the CR of the average monster is more like 25 (which lines up with simplified monster creation). Suddenly he is needing to roll 10/15 with magical gear.

Your heavily optimized paladin outperforms it, surprising no one.

Meanwhile the saves of that monster is +8-10 on average and using your standards a spellcaster DC is 19-20 for their best spells before feats of magic items. Meaning the average creature needs to roll (in the best case) a 10 to beat that DC - again, before feats or magic items are considered.

Yes, a Titan centipede has a +16 Fort - but it also has +3 for its other saves (and yes, I know it's mindless). But that makes things even swing-y-er when a player can target a variety of defenses and find the best course of action versus your paladin's one.

EDIT

And I can't resist it. I saw that you didn't use power attack and rolled my eyes. Is there anyone here that thinks power attack isn't the single most common combat feat for a reason?


derpdidruid wrote:
Philo Pharynx wrote:
Prince Yyrkoon wrote:
Forgetting that shooting through any other creature's space gives your target soft cover. And then complaining about how strong archery is.
At at 11th level, this goes away completely.
Only for full BAB archers. My poor inquisitor has to wait for 15 lvls!

Or at 6th level on Ranger via Combat Style.


memorax wrote:
I would say encumbrance tends to be overlooked. How exactly is a Fighter with 7 str going to carry all his equipment. Not to mention money as well. Using Herolab a character I had built with a 12 str was heavily encumbered. Carrying around 5K of go will do that.

You can convert your money to gems or other trade goods at no appreciable loss


@hiiamtom

I feel I may have been unclear about how I use WBL...

I will provide an example illustrating the point I have been trying to make:

If a character dies in my game, I do not consult WBL chart, because I do not strictly track character wealth. I figure out the AVERAGE wealth of the party and make a judgement based on that.

Consumables are taken into consideration with this, as a high level character may have consumed TENS OF THOUSANDS OF GOLD worth of potions/wands/scrolls etc.

WBL even talks about this.

It would be unfair to allow a new character to come into play with, say MORE money than the current party members have, right?

This theoretical new character also might be made with NO consumable items at all!

I hope you see where I'm going with this...

Unless you are literally tracking every single coin in and out (including consumables after they have been used), not allowing party members to divide loot on their own terms (what's that? Random treasure gave a +5 item to a level one party? No one can use it if WBL is a rule!) and re-balancing gear every time someone levels, then you must admit to WBL being a guideline.

Rules are adhered to, all the time.

Guidelines are things you consult to make choices that aren't clear.

Enforcing WBL as a rule would be an absolute nightmare that would totally preclude player choice in dividing up loot, as the numbers listed (if they are a rule) MUST be adhered to.

5gp over your limit? Guess your character has to drop coins in-game because... reasons.

Or are you 1000 under what the chart suggests? Does money just APPEAR in your bag?

What if you find one massive item and everyone agrees it should go to the Fighter? Guess he better sell off the rest of his gear and hope it works with his limit.

Treating it as a rule leads to INSANE situations in the game that really can't be explained in a roleplaying context.

Me saying that I use it as a guideline does not mean I'm ignoring it.

I maintain balance in my party, and a new character introduced at high levels will likely have slightly LESS money than existing characters, to account for consumed items the other characters used to get to where they are.

Last point.

If you treat WBL as a rule, then do you, as a GM, tell people where the dial is set at the start of the game?

(Low, regular, high magic).

Cause if you change mid-campaign, you will have to, on the spot, alter gear. As a player, if we started low magic, then wound up in high magic, if you enforced WBL, I would absolutely scream my head off till I got my 4x existing wealth.

But only if WBL was a rule.

Which it isn't.


hiiamtom wrote:

That is a lot of cheery picking to make your point.

4 CR9 PCs, 1 CR9 monster - a normal encounter

Your moderately optimized paladin would be swinging for +17/+12, and the CR of the average monster is more like 25 (which lines up with simplified monster creation). Suddenly he is needing to roll 10/15 with magical gear.

Your heavily optimized paladin outperforms it, surprising no one.

Meanwhile the saves of that monster is +8-10 on average and using your standards a spellcaster DC is 19-20 for their best spells before feats of magic items. Meaning the average creature needs to roll (in the best case) a 10 to beat that DC - again, before feats or magic items are considered.

Yes, a Titan centipede has a +16 Fort - but it also has +3 for its other saves (and yes, I know it's mindless). But that makes things even swing-y-er when a player can target a variety of defenses and find the best course of action versus your paladin's one.

EDIT

And I can't resist it. I saw that you didn't use power attack and rolled my eyes. Is there anyone here that thinks power attack isn't the single most common combat feat for a reason?

I mentioned Power Attack at the end actually.

My Optimized Megadin can, if it rolls 1 bad roll, kill a Young Adult CR 13 Red Dragon in 1 full attack.

That isn't mildly outperforming. That is why WBL is a GUIDELINE and not a rule. My Pallie isn't even running at full WBL and he can take +4 encounters alone without any support.

Also, CR = APL is an AVERAGE not EASY encounter.

Easy = APL –1
Average = APL
Challenging = APL +1
Hard = APL +2
Epic = APL +3

A lone level 10 is APL 8-9, not APL 10.

Meaning, assuming APL 9...

"If your group contains three or fewer players, subtract one from their average level."

Meaning an Average Encounter should be average it should not be something that is over in 1 round from 1 full attack. Which is what we see from an average combat under full WBL if the character is even remotely well built.


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The default assumptions seem to include:

Party of four PCs
A balance of martials and arcane and divine casters
15 point buy
Moderate optimization / system mastery
Four encounters a day
Most encounters with a CR between APL-1 and APL+3
Standard WBL
Access to magic shops

Together, these lead to vaguely balanced play.

As soon as you depart significantly from any of these assumptions, you need to start making adjustments in some other department to compensate - they are helpful guides that let you know how far you are from the baseline.


alexd1976 wrote:
...

I said you didn't seem like you were a GM where this is a problem, and you demonstrated that several times. If you are adjusting encounters and character creation then you are doing what the game intends a GM to do.

The whole debate on WBL is how using "low magic" WBL with a party that has full casters means the casters outshine non-casters even further because a martial character is dependent on magic items for utility. You get to "low magic" WBL very quickly by players consuming consumable and the GM not taking periodic snapshot of the party equipment and increasing or decreasing loot to meet their desired effectiveness.

The CR system is pretty dependent (as in it's the difference between functional and devoid of meaning) on WBL being maintained, so at early to mid levels I check in every level (I normally keep a spreadsheet of the party's equipment over time because it's hard to track on sheets anyways) and adjust their loot base don it. At higher levels there is a longer stretch between levels so I check more often (usually after a big reward). And that goes both ways - they can have too much or too little.

I love the ridiculous and continued straw-men of "does the money just disappear or appear when they level up!?" which is so far removed from the conversation it bears no meaning. Of course it's not an instant thing, but the party is going to find more loot and the GM has the opportunity to add or remove from the loot pile the party earns without braking roleplaying whatsoever. It's the strength of building in magic items into the math of the game, and the weakness is that it's harder to manage - which I also pointed out in my original post and repeated.

HWalsh wrote:
MUH OPTIMIZATION

I'm reducing your quote down to that because you didn't actually address anything in my post, just ranted about how great your melee paladin is as smiting evil dragons who chose not to avoid melee with him.

Matthew Downie wrote:

The default assumptions seem to include:

Party of four PCs
A balance of martials and arcane and divine casters
15 point buy
Moderate optimization / system mastery
Four encounters a day
Most encounters with a CR between APL-1 and APL+3
Standard WBL
Access to magic shops

Together, these lead to vaguely balanced play.

As soon as you depart significantly from any of these assumptions, you need to start making adjustments in some other department to compensate - they are helpful guides that let you know how far you are from the baseline.

My point summed up by the guy that originally triggered me.

Maybe the problem is the way different people use "guideline" because some people follow them and the game math works well, and some people take that to mean they should regularly be ignored. A gamemastering guideline is a tool to help you make the game you want, but the expectation is that you will adjust everything else when you deviate from the typical listed above. That to me is much stronger than a "piece of advice" which ultimately is what a guideline is.

For all of its faults, 4e made this much easier - probably the easiest of any rules heavy game I can think of.


alexd1976 wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Spell components. Eschew Materials is a feat, but every Wizard I have seen plays as if they got the feat for free...
There's an item called Spell Component Pouch, doing about the same thing. Granted, you need the item at hand (retreving material is part of the casting of the spell, afaik).

Which is great.

Or they could take the feat.

But I see people acting like they don't need to worry about spell components, even though the rules say they do.

And i saw people acting like they can sunder spell component pouch that is under Wizard coat (and they can't see it )


PłentaX wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Spell components. Eschew Materials is a feat, but every Wizard I have seen plays as if they got the feat for free...
There's an item called Spell Component Pouch, doing about the same thing. Granted, you need the item at hand (retreving material is part of the casting of the spell, afaik).

Which is great.

Or they could take the feat.

But I see people acting like they don't need to worry about spell components, even though the rules say they do.

And i saw people acting like they can sunder spell component pouch that is under Wizard coat (and they can't see it )

That would be a hidden item, made concealed from sight using Sleight of Hand, and it takes a move action to retrieve such an item. That means you turn any spell cast with a material component from a standard action to full-round action and are probably incapable of casting full-round action spells. Also, by retrieving said item, it'd be easy for an onlooker to roll Perception to spot where you reached to grab the components.


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PłentaX wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Spell components. Eschew Materials is a feat, but every Wizard I have seen plays as if they got the feat for free...
There's an item called Spell Component Pouch, doing about the same thing. Granted, you need the item at hand (retreving material is part of the casting of the spell, afaik).

Which is great.

Or they could take the feat.

But I see people acting like they don't need to worry about spell components, even though the rules say they do.

And i saw people acting like they can sunder spell component pouch that is under Wizard coat (and they can't see it )

Where does Seoni hide hers?

Wait, don't answer that...

Hiding it so well that it cannot be sundered would be impressive, especially since you still need access to it to cast spells. Certainly after you cast one spell, or even while you're casting your first spell and reaching into the pouch (under your coat), anyone will now know where it is and can sunder it - if you can get to it to cast spells, an enemy's sword can get to it to destroy it.


DM_Blake wrote:
PłentaX wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Spell components. Eschew Materials is a feat, but every Wizard I have seen plays as if they got the feat for free...
There's an item called Spell Component Pouch, doing about the same thing. Granted, you need the item at hand (retreving material is part of the casting of the spell, afaik).

Which is great.

Or they could take the feat.

But I see people acting like they don't need to worry about spell components, even though the rules say they do.

And i saw people acting like they can sunder spell component pouch that is under Wizard coat (and they can't see it )

Where does Seoni hide hers?

Wait, don't answer that...

Hiding it so well that it cannot be sundered would be impressive, especially since you still need access to it to cast spells. Certainly after you cast one spell, or even while you're casting your first spell and reaching into the pouch (under your coat), anyone will now know where it is and can sunder it - if you can get to it to cast spells, an enemy's sword can get to it to destroy it.

Well for starters, she's a sorceress, so...yeah.


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Honestly, I find Spell Pouch sundering to be horridly meta gamey...

Why?

If someone is shooting at you do you aim for the gun or do you aim for the shooter?

Same thing... if you can sunder, then you are in range to target the caster himself... and most people would aim to kill the wizard instead of weakening him, unless the enemies are run like they are disposable numbers and have no thought pf living beyond their encounter. If played like real people, they would most likely shoot the threat...


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Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

Honestly, I find Spell Pouch sundering to be horridly meta gamey...

Why?

If someone is shooting at you do you aim for the gun or do you aim for the shooter?

Same thing... if you can sunder, then you are in range to target the caster himself... and most people would aim to kill the wizard instead of weakening him, unless the enemies are run like they are disposable numbers and have no thought pf living beyond their encounter. If played like real people, they would most likely shoot the threat...

Because the wizard almost certainly has a lot more hit points than the pouch. And the pouch almost certainly doesn't have stoneskin or some similar DR, temp hp, or AC boosting magic on it. And sunders can be done in place of a normal attack, unlike most other combat maneuvers.


let's assume that standard wizard outfit got 4 pockets
put in each a spell component pouch :)

how Fighter or mr Sunder would know this wizard have only 1 spell component pouch ?

In harsh World where every enemy aim for this this achilles heel wizards would have (smart wizards) more then 1

"Evolve or die !"


Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

Honestly, I find Spell Pouch sundering to be horridly meta gamey...

Why?

If someone is shooting at you do you aim for the gun or do you aim for the shooter?

Same thing... if you can sunder, then you are in range to target the caster himself... and most people would aim to kill the wizard instead of weakening him, unless the enemies are run like they are disposable numbers and have no thought pf living beyond their encounter. If played like real people, they would most likely shoot the threat...

I totally agree with this, how would a typical bad guy even know the difference between a spell component pouch and the various other belt pouches an adventurer has??


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HeHateMe wrote:
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

Honestly, I find Spell Pouch sundering to be horridly meta gamey...

Why?

If someone is shooting at you do you aim for the gun or do you aim for the shooter?

Same thing... if you can sunder, then you are in range to target the caster himself... and most people would aim to kill the wizard instead of weakening him, unless the enemies are run like they are disposable numbers and have no thought pf living beyond their encounter. If played like real people, they would most likely shoot the threat...

I totally agree with this, how would a typical bad guy even know the difference between a spell component pouch and the various other belt pouches an adventurer has??

It's the pouch he keeps digging into every time he casts a spell. :)


Eryx_UK wrote:
You are forgetting common sense.

There's no such thing. What you mean to say, I think, is "DM fiat" (i.e., "what seems to make sense to the DM"), not "common sense."


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Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
If someone is shooting at you do you aim for the gun or do you aim for the shooter?

If they guy is shooting at me from inside a tank, but he somehow left ALL of his ammunition outside the tank, then I probably would go for the ammo.

In a game system where even wizards can get ridiculous amounts of HP that represent fatigue, dodging, ignoring wounds, etc., then you can really only count on one-shotting very low level wizards. But I can just about always one-shot their spell component pouch, even if the wizard is 20th level.

In a different game system, where, say, a 20th level wizard might still only have 10 HP (two decent longsword hits, not counting STR bonus) but might have tons of armor and/or damage reduction and/or other magical protection to keep him alive, and if that magic extended to his equipment too, then I would absolutely try to hit the wizard rather than his pouch.


HeHateMe wrote:
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

Honestly, I find Spell Pouch sundering to be horridly meta gamey...

Why?

If someone is shooting at you do you aim for the gun or do you aim for the shooter?

Same thing... if you can sunder, then you are in range to target the caster himself... and most people would aim to kill the wizard instead of weakening him, unless the enemies are run like they are disposable numbers and have no thought pf living beyond their encounter. If played like real people, they would most likely shoot the threat...

I totally agree with this, how would a typical bad guy even know the difference between a spell component pouch and the various other belt pouches an adventurer has??

On top of that, if the caster was really smart they would be wearing multiple component pouches. If they wanted to get cute and save some gold/weight, they could wear some dummy pouches too. By the time a melee character gets them all, they could have killed the caster twice over.


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If they have 1 pouch and some decoys, then the first time they reach into the real pouch and throw some flaming bat guano at me, I'll know which pouch to sunder.

Yes, a smart caster brings more than spell component pouch and even wears more than one at the same time, just to prevent this problem. Just like a smart fighter brings more than one primary weapon in case the one he's using gets sundered or disarmed or stolen. Same thing, really.

TL;dr: don't put all your magic eggs in one basket.


PłentaX wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Spell components. Eschew Materials is a feat, but every Wizard I have seen plays as if they got the feat for free...
There's an item called Spell Component Pouch, doing about the same thing. Granted, you need the item at hand (retreving material is part of the casting of the spell, afaik).

Which is great.

Or they could take the feat.

But I see people acting like they don't need to worry about spell components, even though the rules say they do.

And i saw people acting like they can sunder spell component pouch that is under Wizard coat (and they can't see it )

If it is stowed somewhere that would take an action to retrieve it, it would be unfair for someone to sunder it, like you said, they couldn't see it.


Matthew Downie wrote:

The default assumptions seem to include:

Party of four PCs
A balance of martials and arcane and divine casters
15 point buy
Moderate optimization / system mastery
Four encounters a day
Most encounters with a CR between APL-1 and APL+3
Standard WBL
Access to magic shops

Together, these lead to vaguely balanced play.

As soon as you depart significantly from any of these assumptions, you need to start making adjustments in some other department to compensate - they are helpful guides that let you know how far you are from the baseline.

No.

APL+3 is an epic encounter those should never be seen on a "per day" basis.

The default is:

Party of 4 PCs
A mix of classes (usually assuming the traditional Fighter/Rogue/Mage/Cleric quartet)
Moderate Optimization
4-6 Encounters per day
Most encounters CR APL-1 to APL+1
WBL in the mid-range (Meaning if it says 3,000 it assumes around 1,500)
Access to limited magic shops

That is the default in pretty much every published AP.


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Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

Honestly, I find Spell Pouch sundering to be horridly meta gamey...

Why?

If someone is shooting at you do you aim for the gun or do you aim for the shooter?

Same thing... if you can sunder, then you are in range to target the caster himself... and most people would aim to kill the wizard instead of weakening him, unless the enemies are run like they are disposable numbers and have no thought pf living beyond their encounter. If played like real people, they would most likely shoot the threat...

It's not metagamey at all, it's a smart martial trying to survive a caster!

Of course, it could be a Sorcerer who uses the material component pouch in the hopes of exactly this... the first hit being wasted. :D

It's just good tactics.


HWalsh wrote:


Access to limited magic shops

That is the default in pretty much every published AP.

I have to agree with this.

For example, I'm running Iron Gods right now. The only city within reasonable traveling distance (not counting Teleport because the party is all from Numeria and hasn't visited any cities outside of the nation to make Teleporting reliable) that has a decent sized 75% find GP amount is Chesed, and that city specifically states the economy is so messed up from all the Crusaders traveling through & buying equipment to fight the Worldwound that everything costs 150% normal.

Pretty much every other city or town has very, very limited magic item availability.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Spell component pouches are cheap - at higher levels a wizard really should have multiple pouches - much as a cleric really should have multiple holy symbols (or as my Level 10 cleric in PFS play did take the trait "birthmark" that gave him a birthmark in the shape of his holy symbol that he can use as a holy symbol (very hard to sunder that or to remove it if he is ever captured)

And I would also note that not every spell requires components - sure in game it may take a few minutes for a player to look up which spells have material components but quite a few very strong spells do not have any requirements. Only spells with a component of M (or F or DF) require anything to cast them - otherwise V (Verbal) or S (Somatic) only spells or VS spells do not require any components - and any smart wizard will have many spells that do not require any components (and some verbal only or somatic only spells can be hand as well).

(My PFS Dragon Disciple - who is a Paladin/Bard/Dragon Disciple gets away with casting in heavy armor because he primarily only prepares spells which are Verbal spells - or some cantrips like Detect Magic that if he fails he can retry or buffs he can cast outside of combat. As a result he has very few concerns about material components)


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Saldiven wrote:
HWalsh wrote:


Access to limited magic shops

That is the default in pretty much every published AP.

I have to agree with this.

For example, I'm running Iron Gods right now. The only city within reasonable traveling distance (not counting Teleport because the party is all from Numeria and hasn't visited any cities outside of the nation to make Teleporting reliable) that has a decent sized 75% find GP amount is Chesed, and that city specifically states the economy is so messed up from all the Crusaders traveling through & buying equipment to fight the Worldwound that everything costs 150% normal.

Pretty much every other city or town has very, very limited magic item availability.

But pay close attention - in many AP's there is one or more built in "outs" for the characters over the course of the adventure to have opportunities to restock. I haven't cracked open my copies of Iron Gods yet (may eventually want to run it - but it is one that I might also like to play in) but for example

in Reign of Winter:
In the later books when the PC's are literally on other planets there is a character introduced who is, in essence, a traveling magic shop. As a GM I plan on letting the PC's use him fairly liberally - even if some things bend the rules a bit as I would like the players to have opportunities to get the items they want if they don't like what they have found. I've also allowed the party to craft and as long as the AP doesn't impose a strict timetable there are plenty of chances to let the PC's craft for a bit. I think there are similar solutions in many other AP's - either visits to larger cities built in to give the party a chance to sell items/buy items or NPCs who serve as sources for items the party needs/wants.

You know, I'm not sure about this digging around in a spell component pouch in combat at all.
You already know before hand exactly which spells you've prepared and exactly what components you need - I think, if for example, I'd prepared 3 fireballs, I'd have three twists of paper or similar, each containing exactly what I needed for each spell, and I'd pin them inside a pocket, or to my belt, or coat lapel, or somewhere else immediately to hand.
And going up from 1st level and starting with a choice of only a few spells, reaching for the right component would be as much a reflex as putting your hand to your dagger (or other weapon of choice)


Rycaut wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
HWalsh wrote:


Access to limited magic shops

That is the default in pretty much every published AP.

I have to agree with this.

For example, I'm running Iron Gods right now. The only city within reasonable traveling distance (not counting Teleport because the party is all from Numeria and hasn't visited any cities outside of the nation to make Teleporting reliable) that has a decent sized 75% find GP amount is Chesed, and that city specifically states the economy is so messed up from all the Crusaders traveling through & buying equipment to fight the Worldwound that everything costs 150% normal.

Pretty much every other city or town has very, very limited magic item availability.

But pay close attention - in many AP's there is one or more built in "outs" for the characters over the course of the adventure to have opportunities to restock. I haven't cracked open my copies of Iron Gods yet (may eventually want to run it - but it is one that I might also like to play in) but for example ** spoiler omitted **

Through book three of Iron Gods, there is nothing like that. There might be something later, but since our group hasn't gotten that far, I haven't purchased anything past The Choking Tower. That books takes the party to level 9.


Rycaut wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
HWalsh wrote:


Access to limited magic shops

That is the default in pretty much every published AP.

I have to agree with this.

For example, I'm running Iron Gods right now. The only city within reasonable traveling distance (not counting Teleport because the party is all from Numeria and hasn't visited any cities outside of the nation to make Teleporting reliable) that has a decent sized 75% find GP amount is Chesed, and that city specifically states the economy is so messed up from all the Crusaders traveling through & buying equipment to fight the Worldwound that everything costs 150% normal.

Pretty much every other city or town has very, very limited magic item availability.

But pay close attention - in many AP's there is one or more built in "outs" for the characters over the course of the adventure to have opportunities to restock. I haven't cracked open my copies of Iron Gods yet (may eventually want to run it - but it is one that I might also like to play in) but for example ** spoiler omitted **

That is why I said limited and there is always time for player crafting. Remember you can adventure and craft but only make 2 hours of progress per day doing it.


Saldiven wrote:
Rycaut wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
HWalsh wrote:


Access to limited magic shops

That is the default in pretty much every published AP.

I have to agree with this.

For example, I'm running Iron Gods right now. The only city within reasonable traveling distance (not counting Teleport because the party is all from Numeria and hasn't visited any cities outside of the nation to make Teleporting reliable) that has a decent sized 75% find GP amount is Chesed, and that city specifically states the economy is so messed up from all the Crusaders traveling through & buying equipment to fight the Worldwound that everything costs 150% normal.

Pretty much every other city or town has very, very limited magic item availability.

But pay close attention - in many AP's there is one or more built in "outs" for the characters over the course of the adventure to have opportunities to restock. I haven't cracked open my copies of Iron Gods yet (may eventually want to run it - but it is one that I might also like to play in) but for example ** spoiler omitted **
Through book three of Iron Gods, there is nothing like that. There might be something later, but since our group hasn't gotten that far, I haven't purchased anything past The Choking Tower. That books takes the party to level 9.

Book 1 definitely has placed to purchase equipment and magic items. You start in a crafting town! But it's also low level, so kind of irrelevant. Book 2 kind of has it, with Dinvaya. She doesn't really have much on hand, but she's there to be able to trade or fix equipment. But at the same time, book 2 is supposed to be desolate when it comes to equipment. However, at the end of book 2 and on your way to book 3, you have to pass through the starting town which is full of crafters. This makes a perfect spot to re-equip and get magic/tech items at level 7-8 before moving on to book 3. Additionally, the AP is paced in such a way that you have time between books to be able to craft and/or commission items.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Aristocrat 1: "Oh dear, that large misshapen mentally challenged man covered in manure looks just like the king."

Aristocrat 2: "By jove! That is the King! I must be. The manure caked to his face is just as the King would look."

You convinced me, I'll start using nat 1/20 fail/success on all my d20 rolls, this sound like fun game!

Also, something I've noticed on these boards is that most people seem to ignore that wizards needs to prepare spells.


I've noticed that people tend to ignore costly spell components below a certain threshold.


Hi hwalsh, a few things:
For skills, you are comparing regular baseball players to obscene superhumans. A more accurate comparison would be watching a gold glove player and see if they mess up something easy. It will not happen all the time, if at all

You don't seem to understand how the cr system works. Cr = party level is an easy fight, basically 100% chance of winning. Cr+4 is actually a fair fight, where a pc might die or the party might lose ~50/50 odds.


Rub-Eta wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Aristocrat 1: "Oh dear, that large misshapen mentally challenged man covered in manure looks just like the king."

Aristocrat 2: "By jove! That is the King! I must be. The manure caked to his face is just as the King would look."

You convinced me, I'll start using nat 1/20 fail/success on all my d20 rolls, this sound like fun game!

Also, something I've noticed on these boards is that most people seem to ignore that wizards needs to prepare spells.

I probably should have mentioned it before, but I think that example was b*~++@#+, and really says more about the perception of the aristocrats or the kings behavior's rather than the idiot disguising himself as poop, though honestly it should never get that far... because that would imply the GM thought disguising oneself as poop would work, which is about as realistic as rolling to attempt to use liquid beer(no container) as a (longsword)improvised weapon... it just would never fly as a roll in the first place.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

All the examples are BS. It's the whole point. To paint a picture of absurdity.

Never fly? Yes, you are coming to an understanding of the whole thing.


CWheezy wrote:

Hi hwalsh, a few things:

For skills, you are comparing regular baseball players to obscene superhumans. A more accurate comparison would be watching a gold glove player and see if they mess up something easy. It will not happen all the time, if at all

You don't seem to understand how the cr system works. Cr = party level is an easy fight, basically 100% chance of winning. Cr+4 is actually a fair fight, where a pc might die or the party might lose ~50/50 odds.

since when would you expect a ~200% chance of party wipes a day?

50/50 per encounter 4 encounters a day amounts to just that, and good luck ever healing to full hp with that party, what is the point of magic if you can't heal up without using potions or CLW after just about every encounter?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

All the examples are BS. It's the whole point. To paint a picture of absurdity.

Never fly? Yes, you are coming to an understanding of the whole thing.

but my point is that the ridiculous thing is not that the idiot could succeed, because his disguise if he rolled a nat 20 should be a stroke of brilliance, not fecal matter, and then you still need to oppose his disguise with perception rolls almost as difficult for him to beat as that disguise roll was to pull off... with new checks every time he slips up out of character, which he should be doing because in character he is an idiot.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Brilliant fecal matter?


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Hi m1k31 I have no idea what you are talking about, I am just explaining what the cr system means


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Brilliant fecal matter?

no


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
M1k31 wrote:
CWheezy wrote:

Hi hwalsh, a few things:

For skills, you are comparing regular baseball players to obscene superhumans. A more accurate comparison would be watching a gold glove player and see if they mess up something easy. It will not happen all the time, if at all

You don't seem to understand how the cr system works. Cr = party level is an easy fight, basically 100% chance of winning. Cr+4 is actually a fair fight, where a pc might die or the party might lose ~50/50 odds.

since when would you expect a ~200% chance of party wipes a day?

50/50 per encounter 4 encounters a day amounts to just that, and good luck ever healing to full hp with that party, what is the point of magic if you can't heal up without using potions or CLW after just about every encounter?

Not quite. .5^4=.0625 or 6.25% chance of winning all that. Meaning 93.75% chance of losing. But these aren't just repeated tests, so it ends up being worse. Still less than 100%, though.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Berinor wrote:
M1k31 wrote:
CWheezy wrote:

Hi hwalsh, a few things:

For skills, you are comparing regular baseball players to obscene superhumans. A more accurate comparison would be watching a gold glove player and see if they mess up something easy. It will not happen all the time, if at all

You don't seem to understand how the cr system works. Cr = party level is an easy fight, basically 100% chance of winning. Cr+4 is actually a fair fight, where a pc might die or the party might lose ~50/50 odds.

since when would you expect a ~200% chance of party wipes a day?

50/50 per encounter 4 encounters a day amounts to just that, and good luck ever healing to full hp with that party, what is the point of magic if you can't heal up without using potions or CLW after just about every encounter?

Not quite. .5^4=.0625 or 6.25% chance of winning all that. Meaning 93.75% chance of losing. But these aren't just repeated tests, so it ends up being worse. Still less than 100%, though.

I'm still confused on how he got that "cr+4 = 50/50 fight" is equivalent to stating that a party should be facing a cr+4 four times a day.


bookrat wrote:
Berinor wrote:

Not quite. .5^4=.0625 or 6.25% chance of winning all that. Meaning 93.75% chance of losing. But these aren't just repeated tests, so it ends up being worse. Still less than 100%, though.

I'm still confused on how he got that "cr+4 = 50/50 fight" is equivalent to stating that a party should be facing a cr+4 four times a day.

My point is that given a party is expected to have 3-4 encounters a day, any 50/50 fight is going to make survivability of the party for the day less than 50%, not even taking into account sub-optimal conditions like sleepers during night raids or not being all power gamers in the party(as builds based on roleplaying and not optimized or players not good at teamwork are relatively common). not all gamers(or adventurers) are suicidal, CR=Encounter x 4 a day is therefore most representative of party level, not CR+4 every encounter once a day.

edit: thanks for the correction though Berinor, I knew it wasn't really 200% but couldn't remember how to do the math today.


M1k31 wrote:
and good luck ever healing to full hp with that party, what is the point of magic if you can't heal up without using potions or CLW after just about every encounter?

Ehmm... after level ~2 the party has wands of CLW and therefore is at full hit points at the beginning of each encounter with the very very rare exception where there are chain encounters.


M1k31 wrote:
bookrat wrote:
Berinor wrote:

Not quite. .5^4=.0625 or 6.25% chance of winning all that. Meaning 93.75% chance of losing. But these aren't just repeated tests, so it ends up being worse. Still less than 100%, though.

I'm still confused on how he got that "cr+4 = 50/50 fight" is equivalent to stating that a party should be facing a cr+4 four times a day.

My point is that given a party is expected to have 3-4 encounters a day, any 50/50 fight is going to make survivability of the party for the day less than 50%, not even taking into account sub-optimal conditions like sleepers during night raids or not being all power gamers in the party(as builds based on roleplaying and not optimized or players not good at teamwork are relatively common). not all gamers(or adventurers) are suicidal, CR=Encounter x 4 a day is therefore most representative of party level, not CR+4 every encounter once a day.

edit: thanks for the correction though Berinor, I knew it wasn't really 200% but couldn't remember how to do the math today.

Again. How does any of this relate to what CWheezy said? He said nothing about the numbers of encounters per day.

Another thing I'm curious about: where does this 2-4 encounters per day come from? I can't find it in the PRD. Is it some sort of hold out from 3.X or is it just an engrained idea of bad encounter design in the gaming community?

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