You need a minimum of 11 to cast level 1 spells man. You really do not need much charisma, as a battle oracle you will never cast a spell that has a save DCCon is the tertiary stat for battle oracles, because you still need a minimum of 14 to cast your spells,
Er... Presumably you intend to cast spells of later levels, as well. I mean, the Cleric list has some pretty good buff spells, it's not just divine favor. I think the lowest you could swing without getting into a situation where you've got spells you have access to but are not sexy enough to cast is a 13.
Yeah, but if you're not concerned with spell DCs, you can just start with a 13 and use a +6 headband to get the rest when you need it.
I love that the feat divine protection is so dumb that it is in the same grounds as a CLASS for what is normally banned. Feat = Class in providing GM headaches.
Honestly, I myself don't see Divine Protection as too much of an issue. If you charisma is high enough to make your saves damn near infallible, then odds are you are a primary caster and likely just that (Even then your saves will likely just be north of neutral given an Oracle's stat priority and save growth. Maybe a really good fort and that's all). More martial based characters reap the benefits in a way that the feat was likely more intended for: Charisma being a secondary stat on a divine 3/4 BAB full(ish) caster. Given an oracle's already poor saves, Divine Protection is really good for martial-inclined oracles.
With all that said, Lunar oracle is just friggin ridiculous with the feat. Seriously man, ****ing wildshape.
with full bab i can see myself actually taking sensei or master of many styles for more than a dip now.
with full bab i can see myself actually taking sensei or master of many styles for more than a dip now.
Existing archetypes do not work with the Unchained Monk . . . both the book and Mark (earlier in this thread) have said so.
MA
with full bab i can see myself actually taking sensei or master of many styles for more than a dip now.Existing archetypes do not work with the Unchained Monk . . . both the book and Mark (earlier in this thread) have said so.
MA
the book says any of the classes are compatible with their archetypes as long as they have the same class features. it does call out the monk as being least compatible though, but the two i mentioned RAW work.
edit:reread it, actually no they even banned usable archetypes...which seems kinda dumb.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Paladins get divine grace because they are held to the highest standards, they must follow a code and be heroes of righteousness. Having it be a feat undermines the reason why Paladins have divine grace in the first placeI love that the feat divine protection is so dumb that it is in the same grounds as a CLASS for what is normally banned. Feat = Class in providing GM headaches.
Paladins get Divine Grace because their god likes them.
Divine Protection exists because maybe your god likes you even if you're not a Paladin. Which makes sense considering they're bothering to give you Channeling, Domains, and Divine Spells, after all.
Divine Protection ALSO exists so that Paladin Archetypes can lose Divine Grace and STILL get the benefit of it by eating a Feat slot.
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I don't remember the prerequisites perfectly, but I seem to recall them including "domain, mystery, or blessing class feature"... none of which the paladin has.
Divine Protection requires: "13 CHA Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks, ability to cast 2nd-level divine spells; blessings, domains, or mystery class feature."
If you have 13 CHA, 5 ranks in Kno:Religion and can cast 2nd level divine spells, then your good. So, by level 7/8 A paladin that doesn't have Divine Grace can qualify for Divine Protection.
I don't remember the prerequisites perfectly, but I seem to recall them including "domain, mystery, or blessing class feature"... none of which the paladin has.
Multiclassing Paladins do, and they can gain Blessings and Domains via Archetypes.
For instance, a Sacred Servant Sword of Valor Paladin loses Divine Grace but gains a Domain, and therefore can take Divine Protection at lv7.
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I don't remember the prerequisites perfectly, but I seem to recall them including "domain, mystery, or blessing class feature"... none of which the paladin has.Multiclassing Paladins do, and they can gain Blessings and Domains via Archetypes.
For instance, a Sacred Servant Sword of Valar Paladin loses Divine Grace but gains a Domain, and therefore can take Divine Protection at lv7.
Whoops, misread the semi-colon. That's correct though. You'd need 2nd level spells, and then one of the three listed. (Blessings, Domains, or Mystery.)
...Why make his Fort and Ref saves worse?
You need a minimum of 11 to cast level 1 spells man. You really do not need much charisma, as a battle oracle you will never cast a spell that has a save DCCon is the tertiary stat for battle oracles, because you still need a minimum of 14 to cast your spells,
Not to mention that buying a +2 (or higher) headband of Charisma will also give you access to the higher level spells.
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Wow, I have finally reached the end of the thread :)
Silly thing called work kept me busy, along with watching Hajime no Ippo for the first time.
Okay. I haven't actually seen the class yet, but I mostly like what I have read here.
I am not a fan of the reduced will save (I don't mean to light that fire again), or the now needing to use ki for previously passive abilities. I love my passive monk abilities like disease and poison immunity. I always trade out spell resistance; as it actually prevents possible healing/buffs and wastes time on an extra roll your friendly neighborhood cleric needs to do.
I love style strikes and how they work. One of the impression I got for the unchained monk early in the thread was a Muay Thai fighter: Kicks, headbutts and elbow strikes sound right at home. Along with the extra hitting chance and hit points. It might also explain the lower will save as Muay Thai is less mystical than say the more traditional envisioning of the monk.
The new Flurry is also awesome, reminds me more of the 3,5 one.
I would have preferred to keep my will save and my d8 to balance that out. Maybe give monks the option to select one save to be weaker. I for one would have expected a lower fort save rather than will.
Okay, those are my ideas on the new monk.
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Guided runs into the same problem that Divine Protection does. It's not terribly imbalanced when a Champion of the Faith warpriest with 14 charisma takes it to be a paladin Lite. It is imbalanced when the 26 charisma Oracle also takes it.Divine Protection is one of those things I always wonder at, whenever we get a thread where someone opines that dex-to-damage makes strength irrelevant. I'm not sure what makes Charisma the developers stat of choice.
Wisdom/dex to hit/damage? => How dare you! Don't you care about strength's feelings? Look now you've gone and made strength cry.
Int to will saves? => Good day, sir. I said good day!
Charisma to AC, CMD, all saves? => Why didn't you say you were a spontaneous caster? If you'll follow me, right this way sir. Ah yes Mr. Druid, it seems we're going to need your table. Now, up up! No don't worry about taking your lunch, we're going to let the oracle here eat it.
Honestly, I consider part of that to be penance for Charisma's original status as the ultimate dump stat due to poor design choices.
Strike 1: Having a high charisma score by itself does absolutely nothing. Every other stat in the game does SOMETHING when you have it high whether you capitalize on it or not. Intelligence gives you skill points. Wisdom gives you saves. Strength gives you carrying capacity, hit, and damage. Constitution gives you saves and hit points. Dexterity gives you AC, saves, and initiative. Charisma...is a stat.
Charisma has a variety of incredibly useful skills, but Paizo kicked it in the teeth when a number of the commonly-used traits in the game take away the only reasons you would ever invest in a high charisma score and give them to intelligence. Want to be a party face with your 20 int and 4 charisma? Sure, you can do that with Student of Philosophy! Want Use Magic Device, Charisma's ace in the hole, as an int skill? Yeah, there's a trait for that. People kvetch about...
If you think that's bad, the new Orator and Esoteric Linguistics feats fromt he Advanced Class guide kick Charisma in the teeth.
Finally being able to take a look at the unchained monk myself, I definitely like it better but still don't feel it went far enough. Particularly I'm disappointed that the bonus feats were not expanded. With the advent of the other books post-CRB I would've thought this list would've expanded a bit (especially since the unchained monk doesn't work with previously released archetypes, some of which replaced or expanded the bonus feats) or with the importance of Ki now, adding the Extra Ki feat to the list.
I may end up tweaking Ki strikes so they work similarly to the unchained rogue's Finesse Training (using Wis for dmg to unarmed strikes as long as you have 1 ki point and adding a new monk weapon at the appropriate levels)
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This was mentioned earlier. Jason has confirmed its supposed to be 18.No minimum level or prerequisites?
Empty Body (Su): A monk with this ki power gains the
ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 minute as though
using the spell etherealness, using his monk level as his caster
level. Using this ability is a move action that consumes
3 points from the monk’s ki pool. This ability affects only the
monk and cannot be used to make other creatures ethereal.
Thought I would post this here, since some people were jumping onto the lack of minimums and were excited about taking Empty Body early. No, you have to wait until 18th level.
MA
This was mentioned earlier. Jason has confirmed its supposed to be 18.No minimum level or prerequisites?
Empty Body (Su): A monk with this ki power gains the
ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 minute as though
using the spell etherealness, using his monk level as his caster
level. Using this ability is a move action that consumes
3 points from the monk’s ki pool. This ability affects only the
monk and cannot be used to make other creatures ethereal.
Thought I would post this here, since some people were jumping onto the lack of minimums and were excited about taking Empty Body early. No, you have to wait until 18th level.
MA
Ugh. I don't wanna be a downer about the new monk, but it's hard not to when stuff like this comes out. Empty Body is once again relegated to the pile of "things few will ever see and none will ever use". Great.
This was mentioned earlier. Jason has confirmed its supposed to be 18.No minimum level or prerequisites?
Empty Body (Su): A monk with this ki power gains the
ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 minute as though
using the spell etherealness, using his monk level as his caster
level. Using this ability is a move action that consumes
3 points from the monk’s ki pool. This ability affects only the
monk and cannot be used to make other creatures ethereal.
Thought I would post this here, since some people were jumping onto the lack of minimums and were excited about taking Empty Body early. No, you have to wait until 18th level.
MA
Well that's a big steaming pile of bullshit.
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Who got a first-level version of etherealness?Do you mean the [eronious and surely to-be-erratta'd Unchained Monk, who can't get it until 4th level presently and will eventually be unable to get it at all]? Or something else?
Sorry, sorry. I meant a second-level spell of etherealness. :)
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2 steps forward...
2 steps backward...
The more things change, the more things stay the same.
Side-grade, not upgrade.
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O.k, after running an experiment and looking at the Unchained Monk, there are a few good points, and unfortunately, some negatives.
Firstly, the Unchained Monk does solve the previous issue with flurry of blows. Speaking as a monk player, it was always something you had to remember, and I don't really think I can sing this upgrades's praises any higher.
At roughly level 7, in my experience, the Unchained Monk fits in perfectly with Brawler/Sacred Fist Warpriest/Old Monk in that each class brings a new vision to "unarmed striker", as a concept, and each class/archetype diversifies themselves from that.
That said, after this point, things start getting difficult. The Unchained Monk is, at least in my mind, a straight upgrade over a "core monk". It might not fit the complete vision of what the monk class was supposed to be (more on that later), but its certainly easier to "pick up and play" than the old class, which I have heard several people say was overly complicated.
On the other hand, when you add archetypes into the mix, its not difficult for the old monk to outperform the Unchained Monk, simply due to high levels of versatility and being able to tailor yourself to better handle your strengths. For instance, Tetori is still a super grappler, Zen Archer is still a super everything, and in general, the Unchained Monk feels like it tries more to be a flurry machine than having access to various different tactics at once. If you ignore the fact that an archetype of a different class does this better (Sacred Fist Warpriest), then it does this pretty well, and the style strikes are certainly a cool mechanic.
That said, the Unchained Monk still utterly fails to address some of the obvious problems the monk had. Its still a class that thrives on unarmed combat (which is fine), but really needs an Amulet of Mighty Fists to break past DR...and its such a large $$$ investment when compared with other melee classes. Heck, there are even a few old monk archetypes that function better armed than unarmed. Also, the class is still really really MAD, and it really pisses me off when the first sentence of the Unchained Monk overview hypes up "Mental Perfection" and "Mental Clarity"...and has its will save dumped. It makes so little sense I don't really think there is a leg to stand on with that move. Furthermore, when your standard monk wants STR/DEX/CON/WIS, often it has to lower INT+CHA, which hardly speaks to me as a warrior of mental perfection when its as dumb as a rock.
I don't really want to hate on the class, because its obvious that a ton of effort was put into it, at least trying to deal with some of the problems the old class had. On the other hand though, it really feels like the Unchained Monk took a step forward, and then took a step back again, the class hasn't really "improved" from where it was, and it still lacks its identity as a class. If you stick to paizo's ideal as to what a monk should be, then it comes up short, and if you go with an identity that various films give you, then well, you still come up short. Some of the changes were/are great, and I guess its still pretty mobile as a character, so its still got that cool niche, its just a little disappointing that the class itself didn't really improve very much from what it originally was.
EDIT
Dammit Tels you just said what I wanted to say :(
So is the general consensus that Sacred Fist Warpriests are still better at being monks than monks are then?
There was more than enough information on the boards which Paizo freely owns for them to easily make the monk a viable contributor to a Wizard, Druid, Cleric party [beyond being the janitor cleaning up after them.]
Given Mark's earlier comments on this thread about how Jason's first crack at the Unchained Monk was substantially weaker and he had to be argued into upgrading it into the final version, I think the problem isn't so much that Paizo has no idea how to improve the monk as it is that what they have in mind for an improved monk is far different from what the players wanted.
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As much as I like Jason... I think Paizo just needs someone completely new to be in charge of it.
It seems like all of the best stuff for the Monk is being designed by the 'new' generation of gamers. Archetypes, items, feats etc. I think the Monk would really benefit if someone new were to take over development of the Monk class so that it doesn't fall into the same pitfalls previous editions did.
I mean, if you take a look at Dabbler's changes to the Monk, they're really simple changes that, as a bonus, don't change the word/spacing of the original Monk. It gives it the bump it needs to be competitive as a frontliner, without really stepping on anyone's toes to do so. He's a warrior who is strong of mind and of body, but he doesn't pull off the raw damage numbers that other classes do. With his ability to penetrate DR, he will 'always' be able to contribute to an encounter.
His changes makes for a Monk that does consistent damage, no matter the enemy. Consistent damage that doesn't edge into the realm of ridiculous or "Lawl, 1-rounded Cthulhu" like other classes can (Paladin, Barbarian, Cavalier, looking you).
If they had just taken some legitimate time to look at what's been developed for the Monk in the Suggestions/Houserules/Homebrew section, this side-grade never would have happened. Hell, at the very least I think they should have contacted the most 'prolific' Monk people on the boards and asked for their input.
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So is the general consensus that Sacred Fist Warpriests are still better at being monks than monks are then?
Well, that sorta depends.
Firstly, if you replace Monk universally with the Unchained version, including for Warpriest's abilities, the Warpriest drops to mid-BAB again.
Even if you don't do that, the New Flurry + Full BAB is better than the old flury, and pseudo-pounce built in from 5th or 9th is likewise a big advantage over getting Pounce no earlier than 12th. And the new ki powers are also solid in a lot of ways.
Spell casting makes up for that in a lot of ways, don't get me wrong, but the new Monk definitely comes off better in the comparison than the old one did.
So is the general consensus that Sacred Fist Warpriests are still better at being monks than monks are then?Well, that sorta depends.
Firstly, if you replace Monk universally with the Unchained version, including for Warpriest's abilities, the Warpriest drops to mid-BAB again.
Even if you don't do that, the New Flurry + Full BAB is better than the old flury, and pseudo-pounce built in from 5th or 9th is likewise a big advantage over getting Pounce no earlier than 12th. And the new ki powers are also solid in a lot of ways.
Spell casting makes up for that in a lot of ways, don't get me wrong, but the new Monk definitely comes off better in the comparison than the old one did.
But is the Sacred Fist Warpriest still a 'better Monk than the Monk?'
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Contributor
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But is the Sacred Fist Warpriest still a 'better Monk than the Monk?'So is the general consensus that Sacred Fist Warpriests are still better at being monks than monks are then?Well, that sorta depends.
Firstly, if you replace Monk universally with the Unchained version, including for Warpriest's abilities, the Warpriest drops to mid-BAB again.
Even if you don't do that, the New Flurry + Full BAB is better than the old flury, and pseudo-pounce built in from 5th or 9th is likewise a big advantage over getting Pounce no earlier than 12th. And the new ki powers are also solid in a lot of ways.
Spell casting makes up for that in a lot of ways, don't get me wrong, but the new Monk definitely comes off better in the comparison than the old one did.
I would consider cleric spellcasting to be incompatible with many of my monk concepts, personally.
So, no. :)
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But is the Sacred Fist Warpriest still a 'better Monk than the Monk?'So is the general consensus that Sacred Fist Warpriests are still better at being monks than monks are then?Well, that sorta depends.
Firstly, if you replace Monk universally with the Unchained version, including for Warpriest's abilities, the Warpriest drops to mid-BAB again.
Even if you don't do that, the New Flurry + Full BAB is better than the old flury, and pseudo-pounce built in from 5th or 9th is likewise a big advantage over getting Pounce no earlier than 12th. And the new ki powers are also solid in a lot of ways.
Spell casting makes up for that in a lot of ways, don't get me wrong, but the new Monk definitely comes off better in the comparison than the old one did.
It's a better unarmed combatant than the monk. It's not a better monk than the monk.
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If they had just taken some legitimate time to look at what's been developed for the Monk in the Suggestions/Houserules/Homebrew section, this side-grade never would have happened. Hell, at the very least I think they should have contacted the most 'prolific' Monk people on the boards and asked for their input.
To be (slightly) fair to the devs, there might be rules about them not checking out people's homebrew similar to how lots of show writers aren't allowed to read fanfiction. The last thing they need is any "Paizo stole my homebrew!" drama.
That aside, I do suspect that part of why Paizo was so hush-hush about the content of Unchained and didn't do any public playtesting for it was that they knew there would be at least some backlash from people who wanted bigger changes. Honestly, I think the thing that bugs me most about the variant classes in Unchained is that they just show how much Paizo is chained to their own rigid paradigms when it comes to class design.
If they had just taken some legitimate time to look at what's been developed for the Monk in the Suggestions/Houserules/Homebrew section, this side-grade never would have happened. Hell, at the very least I think they should have contacted the most 'prolific' Monk people on the boards and asked for their input.To be (slightly) fair to the devs, there might be rules about them not checking out people's homebrew similar to how lots of show writers aren't allowed to read fanfiction. The last thing they need is any "Paizo stole my homebrew!" drama.
That aside, I do suspect that part of why Paizo was so hush-hush about the content of Unchained and didn't do any public playtesting for it was that they knew there would be at least some backlash from people who wanted bigger changes. Honestly, I think the thing that bugs me most about the variant classes in Unchained is that they just show how much Paizo is chained to their own rigid paradigms when it comes to class design.
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Fun FAQt! (see what I did there?) Paizo has a legal disclaimer that, basically, amounts to anything directly posted to Paizo's forum gives them the legal right to use or reproduce for free without asking for permission, specifically to avoid little legal hang-ups like that.
Who owns my comments?
While Paizo Inc does not pre-screen message content, Paizo Inc does reserve the right to edit or remove submitted messages or material at any time. Paizo Inc is not responsible for the content of messages submitted by users of the site. Users posting messages to the site automatically grant Paizo Inc the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, nonexclusive right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, sublicense, copy and distribute such messages throughout the world in any media.
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From a weapon standpoint - new monk is 100% better than old monk.
I still say that the easiest way to fix the monk is to just put handwraps in the game - same cost to enchant as a weapon, only one weapon - modifies all 'unarmed strikes' - and doesn't stack with amulet of mighty fists or bodywraps.
Fixed. Use your unarmed damage with normal weapon enchants. (but OMG now the monk has a money advantage) - yep - so what - honestly so does a crafter (by a much wider margin) that can be the monks 'niche'. Depending on the build you are going for weapons will still be better (and for duel wielding you can put +10 enchants on each weapon including some nice buffs) but this simple change makes monks competitive.
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Money Advantage where?
nowhere, since he still has to shell out dosh to cover his armor disparity until his WIS gets high enough to count (still needs it if he wants armor enchants even then), and freeing up the neck slot for the amulet of natural armor helps his money a bit and makes him not need to pay the class ability tax for barkskin.
nice quality of life upgrade.
Money Advantage where?nowhere, since he still has to shell out dosh to cover his armor disparity until his WIS gets high enough to count (still needs it if he wants armor enchants even then), and freeing up the neck slot for the amulet of natural armor helps his money a bit and makes him not need to pay the class ability tax for barkskin.
nice quality of life upgrade.
Remember though, the Monk never gets disarmed for the king.
#unarmedOP