General Discussion: Kineticist


Rules Discussion

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MiniMIehm wrote:
So you would rather the kineticist whiff 2/3 of its attacks instead? The gunslinger is on par with archers in terms of average damage dealt, making the kineticist reach that same standard certainly isn't game breaking.

Gunslinger Derail:
Gunslingers are the best ranged attackers in the game and leave archers in the dust.

Remember, Gunslingers get all the same damage bonuses that archers do, but, in addition, their attack stat, Dexterity, is also their damage stat, and gets added in for free at 5th level. Archers have to split their bonuses between Dex and Str and have to pay more for it.

On top of that, Gunslingers are all but guaranteed to hit with all of their iteratives due to touch AC, where as archers are likely to miss with their iteratives.

I just went through the CR 19 bestiary monsters and the best touch AC is 18 with a normal AC of 36. So, lets say it's an APL+4 encounter, so the PCs are level 15.

Starting Dex of 20, just to go at max power.

Let's say all ability scores to Dex, +6 belt and, hell, why not, +5 book of Dex too. They've even got a +5 weapon for shiggles, because the archer needs it.

So BAB 15, 34 dex (+12), 5 weapon, and +1 for PBS = attack bonus of +33.

Now, the archer is going to be wanting Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot, so that's -6 to her attack score. The Gunslinger wants those two feats to, and takes -6. However, let's toss on some Good Hope, Haste and Bardic Performance of +4, so they have a +7 to hit and +6 to damage.

So, the Arhcer is at +34 attack, with 5 attacks (6 arrows with Manyshot); the Gunslinger, meanwhile, is sitting on +34 to attack with 5 attacks.

34/29/+24/34/34

The archer misses on 1/6/11 for her attack bonuses. What does the Gunslinger miss on? Only on a 1.

But wait! The Gunslinger can go even crazier! She can get herself a Double-Barreled Gun which doubles all of her attacks! Sure, she's now eating a -4 penalty, but she gets double damage on each attack. Still only misses on a 1.

Ooh, what if she's TWF (another -2 penalty) too and happens to have a method of reloading her guns (tiefling for example)? Now she's got an extra 3 attacks on top of it all for an attack routine of 28(x2)/23(x2)/18(x2)/28(x2)/28(x2) 28(x2)/23(x2)/18(x2)

Look at that, she still only misses on a 1 on all of her attacks. Keep in mind, this is an APL +4 encounter, and the Gunslinger is eating an astonshing -12 penalty on her attack rolls to do all this, and still missing on only a 1 against the best touch AC monster in the CR 19 category. Doing this lets her land, an incredible, 16 shots on her enemy, each attack dealing full damage (including bonus damage).

The gunslingers damage per shot is, as follows: 1d8 + 8 (deadly aim) + 12 (dex) + 1 (PBS) +5 (weapon enhancement) + 4 (inspire courage) +2 (good hope) = 1d8+32; meaning she deals 16d8+512 (average 584) points of damage in a round. That's all before critical hits.

Yeah, Gunslingers attacking touch AC is straight up broken. Sure, the Gunslinger is decently optimized, but even removing the double barrelled and TWF, the Gunslinger is going to hit with every attack she makes and for the exact same damage the archer is on every shot. The archer, meanwhile, cannot match the accuracy of the Gunslinger, shot for shot.

TL/DR: Gunslingers are far better ranged attackers than archers are.

Mark, are there any questions, or comments that you specifically want to address, or should we re-post any comments/questions we want answered again?

Designer

Uhh...well, you guys saw the thing about not provoking with blade/whip, right? Also, whoever said that kinetic whip just gives you the reach property and not any of the minutiae of the weapon (such as the weapon whip which has longer reach and provokes AoOs) is correct.

Scarab Sages

Mark Seifter wrote:
Uhh...well, you guys saw the thing about not provoking with blade/whip, right? Also, whoever said that kinetic whip just gives you the reach property and not any of the minutiae of the weapon (such as the weapon whip which has longer reach and provokes AoOs) is correct.

Thank you.

Some of the arguments I am making are simply to test the rules and obtain clarification.

Scarab Sages

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Tels wrote:
MiniMIehm wrote:
So you would rather the kineticist whiff 2/3 of its attacks instead? The gunslinger is on par with archers in terms of average damage dealt, making the kineticist reach that same standard certainly isn't game breaking.

** spoiler omitted **

TL/DR: Gunslingers are far better ranged attackers than archers are.

A useful spreadsheet I found.


MiniMIehm wrote:
Artanthos wrote:

The Kineticist can hit ~80 - 85% of the time versus normal AC, but only if optimized for accuracy.

Even with high accuracy, the kineticist is still dealing low damage compared to most classes unless going nova and taking a great deal of burn. I would be okay with the lower damage if the class had more utility, both in terms of class abilities and skills.

I think my Kineticist, at l4, hit roughly 45% of his attack rolls in Infernal Vault on Monday. Before he got blinded due to a low will save. This was a telekineticist, for the record, 18 Con, 16 Dex.

What were the modifiers that kept your accuracy so low?


Artanthos wrote:
Tels wrote:
MiniMIehm wrote:
So you would rather the kineticist whiff 2/3 of its attacks instead? The gunslinger is on par with archers in terms of average damage dealt, making the kineticist reach that same standard certainly isn't game breaking.

** spoiler omitted **

TL/DR: Gunslingers are far better ranged attackers than archers are.

A useful spreadsheet I found.

That *is* a useful spreadsheet!


What did you think of the various wild talents similar to divination effects I mentioned? Also the ones to help your allies with the movement type?

Most importantly increasing Kineticist's ability to function with their power without tax wild talents, like the fine action wild talent.

My personal favorite was having air Kineticists listening to the voice of the wind.


Artanthos wrote:
A useful spreadsheet I found.

That is SO useful to me as a GM, tailoring encounters based on party effectiveness! Thanks!

(I'm used to players rolling some crazy party composites)

Anyway, back to the Kineticist...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see a lot of people saying they need to eat "burn per encounter"...

If I'm reading this right, burn persists until the end of day, meaning if you've stored 6 burn from the previous fight (+2 hit / +2 damage), that is available straight from the start of your second encounter, right? I see nothing to contrast that.

So much hate on the attack value, but I totally understand the balance between the two.

Physical: (Lv/2+1)d6+1 + Con Mod damage. Say 3d6+9 at 5th, with +7 to hit (both with 3 burn), that ignores spell res but is subject to DR.
Total = 12-27 vs. AC and DR

Energy: (Lv/2+1)d6 + 1/2 Con mod damage. Same formula, +7 to hit touch, for 3d6+2.
Total = 5-20 vs. Touch and SR

That sounds reasonable to me. (both assume 3 burn for a +1/+1, a Con mod of +5 and Dex of +3)

If you could do something like Eldritch Knight with a Kinetic, that would be neat.
Confirm a crit with a blast, get a secondary quicken for no burn. Sounds good!
This could be an interesting compromise for those who want more BAB at the cost of wild talents. Expecting both is a bit much.
Blast goes up, but talents don't, and opens up a few fighter feats (Weapon Spec for starters).
I wonder if this wouldn't break the hell out of Kinetic Blade though.

The notion of boosting burn damage sounds reasonable at a glance.
Say... +2 per 3 burn, or for simpler math, +1 per 2 burn instead of 3.

Another suggestion I would make -- Give Weapon Focus: Kinetic Blast as a bonus at class level 1.
Considering it will be on just about every feat list, why make them burn a feat for it? Feels like a forced play otherwise.

If available, could you take "Ability Focus: Kinetic Blast"?

Probably a lot of breaking potential, but what if you counted as a Fighter for combat feats, however those feats would only affect you Kinetic Blast?

Liberty's Edge

Mark Seifter wrote:
Uhh...well, you guys saw the thing about not provoking with blade/whip, right? Also, whoever said that kinetic whip just gives you the reach property and not any of the minutiae of the weapon (such as the weapon whip which has longer reach and provokes AoOs) is correct.

I have a question about the kinetic blade/whip. Whip just extends the weapon but otherwise it's blade so mainly about blade.

Does it give you a specific weapon you choose when you make it as it seems to imply with the text about one handed or light weapon or is it it's own weapon? I know it doesn't mention anything about proficiency but I'm ok gaining them from another source and just using simple weapons if I don't bother to do so.

Reason to ask though is can I make a weapon with the trip, disarm, sunder, monk, etc kinda traits and gain the benefits. Can I take weapon specific traits like river rat, or multiclass with something that has a weapon specific class feature and benefit from it.

If it is does become a specific weapon I would like for there to be another talent allows for dual weapon creation, the idea of a catfolk making claw blades out of fire sounds awesome to me. Maybe something for an arch type.


Was it a touch attack or a regular attack?

Grand Lodge

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Maybe something that ignores a bit of energy resistance?

Just rough, but "treat their energy resistance lower, by 1+1/2 your Kineticist level" or something?

Possibly even dealing damage to those who are immune, but at half damage.

Just a thought.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Maybe something that ignores a bit of energy resistance?

Just rough, but "treat their energy resistance lower, by 1+1/2 your Kineticist level" or something?

Possibly even dealing damage to those who are immune, but at half damage.

Just a thought.

I favor stealing the Winter Witch's setup for that. At level X they treat resistances as being half what they actually are, at level Y half their damage ignores immunity.

Grand Lodge

That sounds good.


Sorry kestral287, I posted a second link because the first was no good. First time I've tried sharing Drive links.
Fanbuild 2.0 Kineticist


Hah... Just for fun, here's a Fairty Tail's Natsu-inspired homebrew Ranger archetype I made months ago.

Fir Dragon Slayer:

Ability Lost -> Replacement Ability

Light Armor Proficiency -> Fire Resistance = HD

Medium Armor Proficiency -> Natural Armor = Con modifier

Shield Proficiency -> Get Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat and learn Draconic and Ignan as bonus languages.

Hunter's Bond -> Ranger levels count as Monk levels for determining unarmed damage, Stunning Fists uses, Ki Pool & Ki Strike

Favored Enemy: Only gets one (Dragon), but it increases by +3 for every 5 levels.

Spells: -> Fire Abilities

Fire abilities:

1st level:
- Red Dragon Claws (Su) (1 Ki): As a swift action, you can grant your unarmed strikes the Flaming property for 1 minute per level. While this ability is active, any enemy you grapple automatically takes 1d6 fire damage per turn for as long as you mantain the grapple.
- Fire Blast (Su): As a standard action, you can make a ranged touch attack that deals fire damage equal to your unarmed damage to any one target who is no further than 60ft away from you.
You are immune to all fire damage caused by any of your own fire attacks.

4th level:
- Red Dragon Roar (Su) (1 Ki): You deal 1d6 fire damage per level on either a 15ft cone, a 30ft line or a 10ft radius centered on you.
- Flame Eater (Su) (1 Ki): You can use a swift action to eat all fire within a 20ft. radius, as long as it was not created by your own fire abilities. This causes you to recover 1d6 hit points for every 2 levels you posses. You also recover from Fatigue and Exhaustion as well. All fire in the area of effect is extinguished in the process. This ability does not affect creatures composed of fire, such as fire elementals.
When you succeed on a saving throw made to resist and effect that causes fire damage, you can use this ability as an instant action, gaining all its benefits and reducing the fire damage dealt to you by the same number of hit points you recovered.

7th: level:
- Greater Red Dragon Claws (Su) (1 Ki): Give your unarmed strikes the Flame Burst enhancement for 1 minute per level. While this ability is active, any enemy you grapple automatically takes 1d6 fire damage per turn for as long as you maintain the grapple.
- Red Dragon Slayer Magic (Su): Your fire attacks ignore up to 10pts of Fire Resistance.

10th level:
- Friendly Fire (Su): Whenever you use one of your fire attacks, you can pick a number of squares in the affected area equal to your Wisdom modifier. These squares are not affected by your fire attack.
- Terrifying Red Dragon Roar (Su): When you use the Red Dragon Roar ability, you can also spend 1 daily use of Stunning Fist as a free action. All creatures who suffer any damage from this attack have to succeed on a Fort save or be stunned for 1 round.

15th level:
- Greater Red Dragon Slayer Magic (Su): Your fire attacks ignore up to 20 pts of Fire Resistance. If you spend 1 extra Ki point, they ignore Fire Immunity as well. (You're still unharmed by your own fire ablities).
- Greater Red Dragon Roar (Su): You deal 1d8 fire damage per level on either a 30ft cone, a 90ft line or a 20ft radius centered around you.

20th level:
- Ultimate Red Dragon Slayer Magic (Ex): You become immune to fire damage. Your fire attacks completely bypass Fire Resistance and Fire Immunity without the need of spending additional Ki.

I think we changed a few things later on, but I don't remember what... I still like it though. ^^


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Starfinder Charter Superscriber
TheRamza wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Uhh...well, you guys saw the thing about not provoking with blade/whip, right? Also, whoever said that kinetic whip just gives you the reach property and not any of the minutiae of the weapon (such as the weapon whip which has longer reach and provokes AoOs) is correct.

I have a question about the kinetic blade/whip. Whip just extends the weapon but otherwise it's blade so mainly about blade.

Does it give you a specific weapon you choose when you make it as it seems to imply with the text about one handed or light weapon or is it it's own weapon?

It is its own weapon. It may look like a rapier/kukri/handaxe but it does the damage of your chosen blast and has a crit range of 20/x2.

TheRamza wrote:
Reason to ask though is can I make a weapon with the trip, disarm, sunder, monk, etc kinda traits and gain the benefits. Can I take weapon specific traits like river rat, or multiclass with something that has a weapon specific class feature and benefit from it.

Not at present. In fact, most weapon-based feats don't even work with a kinetic blade or whip.

Grand Lodge

Can an object thrown with Telekinetic Blast, still break, if it drops after hitting it's target?

Say, one uses Telekinetic Blast to hit an eagle flying by, with a glass vase, then, of course, hitting or not, the vase drops.

Does it break?

What if one is using Foe Throw?

Do they take falling damage?


It's got some rough wording in places, some formatting to be fixed, but there's a lot of possibilities that can be pulled from it.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

kestral287 wrote:
I favor stealing the Winter Witch's setup for that. At level X they treat resistances as being half what they actually are, at level Y half their damage ignores immunity.

Oh, my yes.


Shiroi wrote:

Sorry kestral287, I posted a second link because the first was no good. First time I've tried sharing Drive links.

Fanbuild 2.0 Kineticist

-No Form Infusions with iteratives makes them all... really mediocre. I read that, shrugged, and basically went "Okay, time to stock up on Substance Infusions". With Kinetic Blade (presumably) gone and Extended Range now looking kind of useless, I'd be spamming nothing but Substances from level 1.

-Switching elements mid-turn is broken with iteratives. Right now I have to choose between raw damage and consistent hit rates; with that setup I can get the best of both worlds. Min-maxer's dream there.

-"No significant in-game effects" is a rules text nightmare.

-Elemental Defense being the one called out as one level higher is weird, though I question why it needs to be one level higher at all.

-Elemental movement is crazy broken on the simple basis of the target you're dropping things on needing an immediate action. All I need to do is convince the target to use that on something else, and I don't care if they have a crazy high Ref save-- I can still nail them, especially since the available area scales much better than target Ref saves.

-Why does Fire get screwed on elemental movement? They get to move stuff but can't use it offensively, and don't get any kind of radius effect.

-So at the same level of mastery, a Hydrokineticist can make some pretty sculptures out of ice, an Aerokineticist gets to move faster out of combat, and a Geokineticist can lob off save or dies. That does not strike me as particularly even. Also, the spreadsheet won't allow me to view a majority of the things there; I have no clue what "Crushing Force" does.

-You note the "free" Infusions as basically consisting of "a million ways to deal AoE damage". So... why would I ever invest in them in particular; I'm not seeing anything that makes going multielement even remotely viable yet. Also, Geo is getting Sphere twice, and Pyro is getting Engulfing, which doesn't exist.

-You've created obnoxiously huge AoE effects. For example, the largest cone I currently know of available to a PC comes off Form of the Dragon III, an 8th level spell. It's a 50' cone. You have the 50' cone six or so levels earlier than FotDIII is available.

-Scarring is obnoxiously powerful.

-A lot of the Substance Infusions honestly read as a little too much anime and not enough functionality or practical grounding. Manipulating is out of place on every single Hydrokineticist who isn't trying to channel Avatar, for example.

-What, exactly, is an "offensive buff"? Unclear wording is bad.

-Ride the Blast is still broken.

-The X Mind abilities are obscenely powerful. There should be /some/ downside to dumping Cha, not "I took a Wild Talent so I'm a good diplomat because I have endurance".

-Fire's defense is really complicated for something that's really not great. It's an irritating amount of bookkeeping.

-If we're actually talking about building balanced elements, we need to keep the basics balanced. Aether should not get the ability to punch through DR with a basic blast if nobody else does. And it's really not a waste of gold; 20 Cold Iron arrows are what, 2 gold? This goes even further when you bring in Alchemical Items. Tanglefoot Bags are never useless, and chucking one (or four) as part of an attack routine is a really good use of 50 gold against a lot of targets.

-Similarly, if a Hydrokineticist can't break, say, Regeneration/Alignment with a basic blast it's really not balanced for the Lux/Umbrals to do so. The Hydrokineticist needs a comparable ability built into Cold Blast or those need to go away. Same for the Channels. You open up a bunch of feats for them but nobody else.


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So, I love this class in theory. I loved the 3.5 Warlock, but I greatly prefer this implementation of the mechanics.

However, I have a major concern:
This is a class designed for blasting and, uh, it's kind of bad at it. I saw Mark say it shouldn't outdo a Fighter archer, and while I would prefer they were not quite so far behind, I understand and respect that, since, in theory, the Kineticist has some interesting non-combat tricks and utility.

However, the accuracy is so bad on these blasts and the damage not nearly high enough, that I had to run a test. Would a Kineticist be better off with a Bow than their physical blasts? Would they be better off with a pistol than their energy touch blasts?

I made three Kineticists with 20 point buy. One uses a bow, one a gun, and one actually uses blasts. I compared the bow user to using a physical blast and the gun user to energy blasts (since they are regular attacks and touch attacks respectively). The only real differences are stat placement and feat choices.

I arbitrarily picked 11th level. I feel like early on, the blasts come out looking better, before the feats come together. You are supposed to have 82k at that point, but I can't really figure out what the blast user can buy to help themselves. I assumed they'd have a +4 Belt of Dex and Con, but so would the others. And they would definitely have +4 weapons now. I guess the rest would go to defensive stuff so the blast guy probably has better AC. If anyone can think of items that'll help more than this, let me know.

I'm assuming that the the blaster has enough Burn to trigger their Feel the Burn, but otherwise tries to avoid generating more of it, and that the weapon users have enough ammo (and the gun user has alchemical ammo) that they don't need to worry about it anymore. The target is 30' away.

Talents turn out to be irrelevant to this, since none of them do extra damage except composite blasts (and those cost burn, so I'm not looking at them at the moment).

Archer:

Human with the Heirloom Weapon trait for proficiency in Longbows.

Str 18, Dex 25, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7 (having put all stat points in Dex and having a +4 Str/Dex Belt)

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus, Many Shot, Clustered Shots

The attack routine is:
+16/+16/+11 1d8+15 (19.5) and the first hit delivers two arrows

Against the AC 25 enemy, that's a 3% chance to crit and 57% chance to hit normally on the first two (three) arrows, and 1.5% chance to crit and 33.5% chance to hit normally on the last.

End result: 46.02 DPR


Gunner:

Half-elf with the Ancestral Weapon swap to get proficiency in Pistols

Str 7, Dex 26, Con 20, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7 (having put all stat points in Dex and having a +4 Dex/Con belt)

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Rapid Reload, Clustered Shots

The attack routine is:
+16/+16/+11 1d8+11 (15.5)

This is hard to get DPR for, since they're touch attacks. I checked all the CR 11 monsters, and the average touch AC was under 10. The highest was 25, but there were less than a half dozen total that beat a 16. Think I could safely assume all of these attacks hit on average then (except 1s)?

That's a 4.75% chance to crit and a 90.25% chance to hit normally.

End result: 50.80125 DPR (this is tricky just because it was hard to figure a hit chance here)

Actual blaster:

Human
Str 7, Dex 24, Con 22, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7 (having put all stat points in Dex and having a +4 Dex/Con belt)

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim (though it only works on the physical blast), and a bunch of open feats because nothing I could find affects these blasts in any sort of DPR related way (probably stuff for extra Talents and a way to pierce SR).

Empowered Physical Blast:
+16 1.5x(6d6+22) (64.5)

The Kineticist has a 3% chance to crit and a 57% chance to hit normally.

End result: 40.635 DPR with normal attack rolls

Empowered Energy Blast:
+19 6d6+7 (42)

This is even more overkill on accuracy. I'm going to assume the same 4.75% crit and 90.25% hit rate as for the gun.

End Result: 41.895 DPR (But again, this is hard to judge).

So, yeah, there we go. Here's the recap:

Kineticist with a Bow: 46.02 dpr (plus, the bow bypasses up to Adamantine DR)
Kineticist with physical blast: 40.635 dpr (and the blast only bypasses material DRs with a specific Earth Infusion)

Kineticist with a Gun: 50.80125 DPR (and again, bypasses up to adamantine)
Kineticist with energy blast: 41.895 DPR (but this is subject to both energy and spell resistance)

So, my numbers look bad. This is not specialized ranged weapon user--this is not a Fighter, Ranger, Zen Archer, Gunslinger, Trench Fighter, etc--this is just the Kineticist as is using a bow or a gun. That's...horrible.

This class needs at least one of the following, and probably more than one:
1) A way to blast more than once per turn outside of melee (Kinetic Whip is not enough)
2) Better hit/damage buffs (and no, full BAB will not fix this because it just makes Archery better, too)
3) Special feat support or clauses that allow more extant feats to apply
4) Special item support (for example, something like the Amulet of Mighty Fists for blasts)

Again, though, I really love the ideas, the flavor, and even the Burn mechanic. I just think some numbers need work.

Suggestions unrelated to the above DPR issue:

1) Definitely more skill points

2) In your playtest notes, you referenced emptying the bilge faster than expected and being a great drinker. Where are those abilities? I don't see anything that lets you do that except a good GM properly using his fiat. But not everyone has a GM like that. I'd like to see Kineticists get something like Cantrips for their elements automatically. All Hydrokineticists should be able to move water around without a power so we can all empty bilges faster. Fire guys should be able to hold a little candle flame. You can even model it as extant cantrips. Mage Hand on your chosen element. Thematic Prestidigitation. Hydrokinesis should get Create Water and Pyro should get Light or Dancing Lights. That sort of thing.

3) A way for Hydrokinetics to get both water armor and a water shield, even if it costs an Expanded Defense talent.


Excellent, fresh eyes helps a lot, and I appreciate the feedback!
I love a good debate, so here's a few thoughts on your opinions and I'll be back tomorrow to continue.

AOE doesn't work with iterative blasts, because forcing 3 reflex saves for every creature in the area I felt would become tiresome. I did note I'd like to do full damage with the aoe's if it felt practical, that they can keep up with iteratives if they can get three or more targets in the area.

Kinetic blade as a form infusion was designed to make it impossible to use form infusions with iterative melee attacks. It also pigeonholed the type of melee attack. With a few style options I kept the no form limiter, but gained different weapon types. I did limit form infusions from iterative ranged, though, which makes them no different in that regard than they are now : there are no iterative ranged attacks to use form infusions with in the Playtest build. I don't know that I would call extended range useless, given that you can't get the range of a longbow at first range increment without it. But then again, working numbers around to make the size difference more attractive is always an option, I was hoping that regular distance could scale, and extended range make that more powerful.

Switching elements was designed to up low accuracy at the end of the chain, so people didn't as often have to choose. Which, you're right, may well be too powerful. I'd certainly like to see a numbers crunch, but I'm far too tired to do one just at the moment.

No significant in game effect could well be a rules nightmare. Depends on the player and DM, but I hate to say flatly no in game effects if only because any observant NPC may react adversely to seeing someone playing with fire. Whatever wording is in use in Prestidigitation would likely be best.

I had tried to offer a little flavor to your starting choices being slightly more powerful, with a slight to hit and/or damage boost for style and element, and a slightly more powerful than normal shield. It isn't to say it has to be there, just a thought I had while writing it out. It makes the decision at level one have a lasting impact on how you operate, even past when you start getting the varied defense talent.

I have never had immediate actions come up in game before, I am running on low sleep and do apologize. It's supposed to just be reflex and things happen. The DC is also an adjustable number that can be made easier or harder as needed. The goal actually was to put a specific ruling in place that makes it hard to crush mobile targets in case some smart aleck Geo wanted to drop 9 cubes on an ogre.

I never considered fire for a radius effect. It might be easier than dealing with spaces of fire. As for using it offensively, the elemental movement side of things was a focus on utility, not combat prowess. The idea being that if I want to attack, it's far more effective to make a concentrated gout of flames to sear the flesh of an enemy than to move the regular old campfire into their square, though there is nothing (and intentionally so) that stops me from using that power to put them in a burning ring of misery. But non magic fire is pretty weak last I checked.

I had hoped it would let you click the cells to read what was in there, crushing force uses con mod for str checks to break/bend/rip things at a distance. As for flesh to stone, true. It may well be misplaced, but someone had suguessed the Geo should have it in his arsenal and it comes up so rarely I gave it a shot. It might need to be the last item on the list, or even require a talent at high level and use a point of burn.

Multielemental builds get you form and substance infusions both, as well as alternate damage types, movement of more elements, and doesn't necessarily cost you high level abilities from the first element, just some talent-equivalent powers and makes it more difficult to do large projets with any one element. Remember, it takes burn to use a substance or form you don't normally have access to. Multielementals get more choices that don't require burn.

I'm not exceptionally familiar with the normal progressions of AOE templates, I just looked up cone of cold and saw a 60 foot cone as a 6th level spell. I scaled from that. Many AOE sizes may need to be adjusted to make sense. Mostly it was the scaling concept designed to be of particular interest.

Scarring was a last minute idea because engulfing felt more like a form. It isn't worded correctly as is but I am running out of gas for the night.

Manipulating isn't necessarily blood bending, but does work for it. I actually was thinking more of the water soaked into their clothes pooling around their hand and yanking it towards your target. But I can also see where it is a bit of a stretch for most characters. I do admit to liking the outlandish anime style abilities once in a while, those are the ones so rarely done in pathfinder that I probably went a bit overboard to add them.

Offensive buff isn't official wording by any means. Haste, cats grace, bulls strength, inspire courage, and a million other things besides can buff offense. The balance of dark and light with those two was that if you had both in one party you could strip most buffs from a target. I wanted them to have an offensive and defensive theme, and also other elements could dispel effects of their type so I wanted lux and umbral to do similar.

Ride the blast is not horrible when compared to quickening dimension door, or using teleport. It is powerful battlefield control magic but I can honestly say that most combats I've been in have taken place within charge distance unless someone tried to run away, over half indoors or in heavily wooded areas where line of sight limited your range to 50 feet or less anyways. In my experience, while a very useful tool, RtB doesn't feel as overpowered as the initial numbers lead me to believe at first. It is unlikely, for instance, that even in a wide open field I would have attackers spread so thin as to make other forms of getting from one target to another difficult or impossible.

X mind talents were originally limited to str and dex, which makes sense given that they were originally using your TK to assist the effort. But I felt awkward giving that to just TK, and not other elements as well. Then I stuck the others in to see how people felt, because it could lead to better con scores on builds. It'd also cost 5 talents to do though, which could very well not be worth it. It's a trial idea, anyways.

I originally had the "universal defense" as fires defense. It was just too awesome not to give everyone, so I replaced it with the backup choice.

For Aether, I would argue with tangle foot bags being less advantage because of the readily available entangling infusion. And trip infusion. Ignoring DR would involve gold cost, carrying specific equipment that gets destroyed on use, and doesn't always offer a huge advantage. Rarely do I see DR10, less than 5 is more often. With 3 iteratives, that's at most 15 damage per round. A fair bit, but it makes more rules sense with how I would expect TK to work. Dropping to a D4, or making both TK blasts use 1/2 con instead of +1+con, might help balance those differences though.

Having never worked closely with channel on my characters, I'm not sure what feats operate with it or how they differ from feats that operate with elemental abilities or ranged attacks. I do know that giving DR bypass to them is a balance issue, but since both are built around the idea of buffs and debuts in a radius area, bypass of defenses feels natural to them. More importantly, these two do lack out of combat utility right now compared to the other two. So a bit of extra combat may not be uncalled for. It really depends on how much benefit they get from that ability, and how you balance it. In this case, it could well be a matter of adjusting damage mods or dice, or lowering a few other abilities for them. If it gets kept. For that matter, if they get kept. It may simply be the case that light and dark don't balance naturally with the others. I hope they do, as do a few others I've noted, but they're far from complete.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I feel that we are at a stall at the moment. More actual game play information will keep rolling in but for the most part these posts are rehashing statements and questions from earlier in the forum. Whether you agree or disagree some of the most common points are:

*Increase in accuracy, either through a full BAB or a class specific method that does not require reducing maximum hit points.
*Increase in skill points and the skills offered, through the base class and element specific skills.
*Increase in hit die size to help offset the expenditure of burn.
*That burns is overly harsh and either needs to be reworked, several different methods have been presented through the pages, or converted to a point system similar to arcana points.
*More utility, both inside and outside of combat.
*Increase in actual damage output.
*A way to overcome energy resistances, immunities, and DR outside of one infusion limited to one energy type.
*A touch and non-touch blast version for each energy type.

More play testing will continue to hone what is there and narrow down what changes need to take places and how they will be implemented. But for the moment, with the class presented as it is, I think we have identified a list of concerns. I have absolute faith that Mark is reading everything posted and is truly taking what we say into consideration. I know you are working on getting some of the changes created and that there are things, like feats, items, and archetypes, that we know nothing about. I think if we could see some of the changes we could continue to give constructive feedback without going in circles. Mark has said that part of the reason this class will not deal as much damage as a fighter archer is because the kineticist will be balanced with utility abilities. I think we can all say from the comments that as it stands the community does not feel that way. I know there will be more to come, but we need to see more of that balance so that the class does not look like simply a sub-par blaster.

This all comes from a place of love, obviously this class has the weight of a community behind it. We are all excited to see what this will become and we want to be a part of it. This class has captured so many imaginations as to what it can do and who it can be.

tl;dr The forum has become circular, pointing out the same things. We need to information so that we can move forward in the testing.


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Above all I hope that Burn stays what it is at core. If there are any changes let them only be a slight reduction in damage for burn or an increase in the reward for burn.

As it is now Burn offers a new and exciting subsystem for pushing and actually offers REAL risk for reward. The current problem with burn is NOT the damage or risk level, it's that the reward level is not high enough.

Please don't cave to a majority whining on this one, burn is the most interesting thing about the Kineticist. Yes, it's more interesting than all day blasting.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Insain Dragoon wrote:

Above all I hope that Burn stays what it is. If there are any changes let them only be a slight reduction in damage for burn.

As it is now Burn offers a new and exciting subsystem for pushing and actually offers REAL risk for reward. The current problem with burn is NOT the damage or risk level, it's that the reward level is not high enough.

Please don't cave to a majority whining on this one, burn is the most interesting thing about the Kineticist. Yes, it's more interesting than all day blasting.

I agree, I love the idea of burn. It's way more interesting than a simple pool of points that refill everyday. I also agree that there should be way more bang for your buck. Not only do we lose a daily resource, the maximum number of points we can spend a day, but we also take damage for it. Given that they drive one of our main mechanics we have fewer of them than most classes and that blade is double edged. Burn is fun, just maybe needs a tweek.


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I too like the idea of burn, but not the actual mechanics.
-Burning one's own life cannot be the first resource of the class. It should exist but with a safe zone first. Self inflicted damage every day just to do your regular job sucks.
-At the end of "that battle" when every other option is down and things aren't going well, that's the moment to use burn. At exceptionally challenging battles, when everything seem lost. Then it should have some major effect, with greatly enhanced attack, defense and capacity. The cost should come later, as the strain takes it's toll.
-I can think of separating the mechanics: a normal reserve for limited powers, something like 3+Con or 1/2 level+Con for each day. Then the burn, a state of over-channeling where the kineticist could ignore the point costs of power, having enhanced power, speed and defense, by taking burn damage each round. Something like rage from the barbarian, but that can actually kill the user. That would feel awesome.
-Every other class can do it's job without self inflicted damage, the kineticist should have the same benefit. Extra stuff can be there with a cost, but not it's regular activities. Remember that the characters are made to resemble people, and it can't make sense to create whole masochistic class.


Will be released a Revised Kineticist playtest version? 25th of November is way too close.

Also, when using metakinesis (double) on an already empowered blast, are both blasts empowered?

What if Doubling a Kinetic Blade? Can a Kineticist attack with two-weapon fighting in this case?

It seems that feats like Spell Penetration and Spell focus work with Spell-like abilities; if any, is Evocation the magic school of kinetic blasts?


I also like the idea of burn but not the mechanics. I don't like the idea of a blaster class having to have more HP then a fighter to function. I think it should be a point system based on Con(3+Con, 1/2 level+ Con, etc.). The current system doesn't scale well and makes melee builds almost pointless. I wouldn't mind the option to burn HP when you have used up the burn points first. I also wouldn't mind drawbacks that you would have to save vs fatigue, confusion, daze, etc. depending on powers you were using beyond the point norm.

I still say you don't need to give the class a fighter based attack bonus. Just use the classes level as it's "caster level", BA for blasts, and a choice of wich mental stat is it's "caster stat" wich it can use instead of Dex to hit and also damage and save DCs instead of Con. Maybe wich mental stat you choose can have an effect of some abilities and drawbacks. Also granting the class a AC bonus that scales like the monk's or swashbuckler's built into the base class.

I still like the idea of a psychic rage mechanic but that could be used for an archetype.


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Heladriell wrote:

I too like the idea of burn, but not the actual mechanics.

-Burning one's own life cannot be the first resource of the class. It should exist but with a safe zone first. Self inflicted damage every day just to do your regular job sucks.
-At the end of "that battle" when every other option is down and things aren't going well, that's the moment to use burn. At exceptionally challenging battles, when everything seem lost. Then it should have some major effect, with greatly enhanced attack, defense and capacity. The cost should come later, as the strain takes it's toll.
-I can think of separating the mechanics: a normal reserve for limited powers, something like 3+Con or 1/2 level+Con for each day. Then the burn, a state of over-channeling where the kineticist could ignore the point costs of power, having enhanced power, speed and defense, by taking burn damage each round. Something like rage from the barbarian, but that can actually kill the user. That would feel awesome.
-Every other class can do it's job without self inflicted damage, the kineticist should have the same benefit. Extra stuff can be there with a cost, but not it's regular activities. Remember that the characters are made to resemble people, and it can't make sense to create whole masochistic class.

I want to agree with everything you're saying, but I keep rubber-banding with the stuff Mark's been dropping.

Per Heladriell's:
1) With ways to reduce burn starting at 1st level (Move Action), unless poor decisions are made, you probably won't burn much unless by choice. I see burn as basically opening yourself as a conduit to whatever element, which is taxing (non-lethal) but has rewards (FtB). I want to defend it more, but at later levels you really need that +Hit from FtB to land things... I'm really torn here.

2) The concept of taking the effect after battle isn't really that much different, unless you only get in one fight a day, because that burn effects carry into every other encounter that day. The notion of at least your first fight "catching up to you after the adrenaline has faded" is pretty cool, like the more you pull from the element the more it pulls back, but it would feel more like a thematic change rather than a mechanic change.

3) I don't think I'd like this class nearly as much if they operated on a points-per-day system, though possible lethal intensity of Rage DOES seem awesome... Maybe this sort of Over-Channeling could be tied into an Archetype, where they can go so far their life is actually at risk? Also, separating mechanics might eat more precious page space.

4) I think you lost me here. Considering you can use a move to eat a point of burn right from level 1, I don't feel like you're force-fed burn for regular activities. The class isn't masochistic - it's draining. How many examples can you think of where a hero with a cool power decides to over-charge at a tax to themselves for a dramatic effect? I can think of a lot myself. I think the "Every other class" is what really lost me though - while the whole bender feel is a huge lure, I like most that it isn't like every other class. I'd prefer to keep it that way so it feels more like a branch of its own rather than the bark on another.

Somewhat hypocritically to my comment on #4, here's a thought.
What if the Kineticist had a couple baseline things they could spend burn toward, similar to a Monk's Ki, built into the Burn mechanic?

By increasing the burn cost of a Kinetic Blast by 1, you gain a bonus to hit equal to 1/2 your Kineticist level (Min +1).

When you would receive damage from an energy type you can generate with a blast, as an immediate action, you may accept 1 burn to gain Resistance to that energy equal to 3x your Kineticist level for 1 round.
You may instead provide this benefit to an ally within 30ft, though doing so inflicts 2 burn instead. By readying a move action in anticipation of such an attack, you may reduce this burn cost by 1 (minimum 0).

The +Hit option would scale them nicely without being overpowering, making them reliable along all 20 levels.
By using the Kinetic Blast wording, this would be completely inapplicable to Kinetic Blade or Kinetic Fist, as to not break them, when they're thematically more for lower AC/Threat targets anyways.
Figure they'd have about +36 to hit once at Level 20 (+15 BAB, +10 for Burn Boost, +8 from Dex, +3 from Burn), which would be on-par with most Archer types.
You'd have a strong single hit, but Archers would still win in bulk (especially with Clustered Shots), and mages would still win the Area/Other game. This would feel like a comfortable in-between.
My only concern would be if my wish for an Aether Substance that allows you to use the thrown object's stats comes true... Then you'd stack on the +5 from a weapon, and break +40 to hit. (though still only 1 hit)

For the Resistance option - Would fit the flavor. Pyros could create a small rift in a fireball, Aeros could slightly bend a lightning bolt, etc.
This would also give Focused TKs something unique for their lack of a Kinetic Form option, in that they could gain very situational but awesome Force Resistance when they get access to their force blast.

The more I think about it, the more strongly I feel for +Hit/Resistance built into the Burn mechanic!


Heladriell wrote:

I too like the idea of burn, but not the actual mechanics.

-Burning one's own life cannot be the first resource of the class. It should exist but with a safe zone first. Self inflicted damage every day just to do your regular job sucks.
-At the end of "that battle" when every other option is down and things aren't going well, that's the moment to use burn. At exceptionally challenging battles, when everything seem lost. Then it should have some major effect, with greatly enhanced attack, defense and capacity. The cost should come later, as the strain takes it's toll.

What about something like, "the first [1 or 2] points of burn each [round, minute, or something] don't actually give you burn", but worded more nicely into the class. That way, you can go blasting all day with a few of your fun options, but if you hit a really tough challenge you need to spend a lot on, you start piling on the composite form+infusion+metamix blasts and actually taking burn.


I would love to see more healing options(both self and/or for allies) as well.
-An ability for Aether/Water to cure ailments like poison, disease, sickness, etc. with there kinetic healing.
-Maybe earth could get fast healing while touching the ground.
-Being healed by there element would be cool for high levels.
-An ability for each element to cure oneself of certain ailments related to there element like burn, daze, blindness for fire.
-Gaining fast healing by being exposed to there energy type.
-Creating powerful healing effects like heal, regenerate, and breath of life would be cool.
-The ability to touch someone and automatically know what is afflicting them such as disease, curses, poison, enchantments, etc.


Lyee wrote:


What about something like, "the first [1 or 2] points of burn each [round, minute, or something] don't actually give you burn", but worded more nicely into the class. That way, you can go blasting all day with a few of your fun options, but if you hit a really tough challenge you need to spend a lot on, you start piling on the composite form+infusion+metamix blasts and actually taking burn.

Seems like a great idea. This would rid the class of the /day mechanic in a elegant way. I would go for 1/round increasing at 8th and 15th levels to 3/round max (3 may be a bit too much, but from 15th is almost endgame).


Rageling wrote:

By increasing the burn cost of a Kinetic Blast by 1, you gain a bonus to hit equal to 1/2 your Kineticist level (Min +1).

When you would receive damage from an energy type you can generate with a blast, as an immediate action, you may accept 1 burn to gain Resistance to that energy equal to 3x your Kineticist level for 1 round.
You may instead provide this benefit to an ally within 30ft, though doing so inflicts 2 burn instead. By readying a move action in anticipation of such an attack, you may reduce this burn cost by 1 (minimum 0).

I like it with the assumption that it's added to the blasts cost and can be reduced. For example, I gather energy then toss a normal blast with bonus to hit = no burn taken. I'd also make the second one a normal adition instead of an immediate action. I'd want to add that to a normal blast so I could reduce that 1 burn cost with gathering energy.

I'm also thinking about an effect like the Flagellant. Instead of all that nonlethal damage bringing you closer to a KO, it takes you closer to a detrimental effect. I'd rather not see 'taxing' as laying down on the ground but taking penalties.


I love the concept and the flavor of this class. After reading through this, I have a suggestion or four.

1. Remove level requirements for most abilities.

If you keep the burn mechanic as is, it will keep people from one level dipping. Of course you would have to up the burn cost for the movement stuff, but the reduction of cost that hits at 5th level on could mitigate that for people who actually level in this class.

2. Give away all the wild talents.

Let people have all the capabilities of their element. The increase in utility would help with the Burn would keep them from using the high level stuff willy-nilly. Increase the cost of burn for stuff like special movements to 1, and reduce this at level 5 and 8 for the stuff like Flame Jet, Greater. Being able to take burn even at level 1 for one round of such movement would be awesome, but I don't believe it would be overpowered. Expanded elements would have their burn costs increased for the new element as if they were six levels lower. This would keep people from expanding their elements too rapidly.

3. Give elemental forms earlier.

An all day ability like these elemental forms is really cool, and should be available to Kineticists. My suggestion is to use the burn mechanic to overcome this issue instead of level. Make the burn for these elemental forms to be the level required for a wizard to cast them. 5 burn for elemental body 1, 7 for EBII, etc. Reduce this to spell level when that level is reached. 3 for EBI at 5, 4 for EBII at 7 etc. Since Burn is limited to 3+con, you could possibly do EBII at level 1, getting at most a +4 size bonus to one stat for a (effectively) -14 to Con and no movement bonuses from the spell would work wonders for balance. Reducing burn at levels 5,8,11 etc would give no burn all day EBI at 11 or 3 burn for EB4. Since Druids gain all day EB4 at level 12, it's hardly broken, especially since they have to use a limited resource (burn) and they happen not to be full casters.

4. Allow Burn to open up spells of the descriptor of their element.

Pyrokineticists should be able to do a fireball. They just should. Using the above mechanic of wizard (or other class) level needed to cast = Burn reduced to spell level when the proper level is attained will give versatility to the class like none other. Have the Minimum burn for any spell be 1 to keep them from doing it all day, that's what the blast is for. Sure they have to take the damage to do it, but it gives them the versatility like none other. This might need to include any spell with water in the descriptor for things like Aquatic Orb and similar things. This also has the added benefit of not having to reinvent the wheel.

All I'm basically saying: I'm fine with limited damage, but increases in the elemental versatility would make it worth while.

Scarab Sages

An idea for a class specific increase to accuracy plus a damage boost: increase the bonuses from burn. An increase to +2 to-hit/+2 damage per point of burn while gathering energy would increase blasting ability while not overpowering Kinetic Blade.

If you both increase the bonuses from burn and use the Kinetic Bracers idea, accuracy and damage should rise at decent levels while still remaining behind the zen archer or fighter archer.

Scarab Sages

How would the Feat, Endure Pain, would work with Burn?

Endure Pain wrote:

Through violent and torturous conditioning, you have built up a resistance to pain.

Prerequisites: Survived being tortured 10 or more times.

Benefit: If you take nonlethal damage, you may attempt a Fortitude saving throw (DC equal to 10 + the nonlethal damage dealt) to reduce that damage by half. The Endurance feat grants a +4 bonus on this saving throw.

Since you take nonlethal damage via Burn, would you get the Fort Save to reduce it by half? Since you are not immune to the nonlethal damage, and the nonlethal damage is not reduced by DR of any sort, would this be helpful in fluffing the drawback of Burn? Though if thi works, we would be seeing a lot of Zon-Kuthon Kineticsts.

Grand Lodge

Cao Phen wrote:

How would the Feat, Endure Pain, would work with Burn?

Endure Pain wrote:

Through violent and torturous conditioning, you have built up a resistance to pain.

Prerequisites: Survived being tortured 10 or more times.

Benefit: If you take nonlethal damage, you may attempt a Fortitude saving throw (DC equal to 10 + the nonlethal damage dealt) to reduce that damage by half. The Endurance feat grants a +4 bonus on this saving throw.

Since you take nonlethal damage via Burn, would you get the Fort Save to reduce it by half? Since you are not immune to the nonlethal damage, and the nonlethal damage is not reduced by DR of any sort, would this be helpful in fluffing the drawback of Burn? Though if thi works, we would be seeing a lot of Zon-Kuthon Kineticsts.

From the OP:

Quote:
Burn damage cannot be reduced or redirected.

Scarab Sages

Ah, I did not see that. Thank you. (1700+ posts, and I did not perceive the first one =))


graystone wrote:

I like it with the assumption that it's added to the blasts cost and can be reduced. For example, I gather energy then toss a normal blast with bonus to hit = no burn taken. I'd also make the second one a normal adition instead of an immediate action. I'd want to add that to a normal blast so I could reduce that 1 burn cost with gathering energy.

I'm also thinking about an effect like the Flagellant. Instead of all that nonlethal damage bringing you closer to a KO, it takes you closer to a detrimental effect. I'd rather not see 'taxing' as laying down on the ground but taking penalties.

Huh. Apparently in my edit for wording, I pulled that part.

The reason I used the whole "by increasing the burn cost of a kinetic blast" was to make it so the move action could eat that point.

If you made the second one a "normal" action...? Like a standard action? I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
The second one was meant to be defensive, reactive, to your native element, showing an affinity for dealing with it. Wouldn't make sense as a standard action.
Reactive costs you burn. Anticipating such an attack, you can effectively ready your move action to cut the burn by 1.

I think allowing them to boost their to-hit and cut a defense cost in the same round would be entirely too good.

Cao Phen wrote:
How would the Feat, Endure Pain, would work with Burn?

Already answered, but I was thinking, maybe I'm wrong on how I interpret the non-lethal?

How I read the non-lethal from burn, it's tracked like damage, but isn't actual damage. You just sort of receive a buffer. More a sense of drain, rather than a smash to the face.

On a side, I kinda like Flagellant being an evil-inclined feat structure. Can help build a better Kineticist villain... Heh heh heh.


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I really am hoping this class functions at something close to (a few levels behind a sorcerer), with burn putting you at or just beyond that same sorcerer. A conversation between a sorcerer and a kineticist should go...
S: I can do more damage than you.
K: Wanna bet? I don't usually like to show off but...
S: Not bad, I can do that if I work a little harder. Give me a month, and I'll be able to do that 3 times a day without hurting myself.
K: True, but can you (utility power here) as often as you want?
S: No, but I can do (insert non elemental magic a Kineticist will never get) a few times.
K: Well, I can keep this cone of fire going until I fall asleep.

Wizard: I can do all that, but I have to wait for tomorrow because I didn't prep them.
K: I can do all of it today, all day, every day, except that one really big one I just did. Man that kinda stings.
S+W: Leaves an impression though. Not bad.


Rageling wrote:
graystone wrote:

I like it with the assumption that it's added to the blasts cost and can be reduced. For example, I gather energy then toss a normal blast with bonus to hit = no burn taken. I'd also make the second one a normal adition instead of an immediate action. I'd want to add that to a normal blast so I could reduce that 1 burn cost with gathering energy.

I'm also thinking about an effect like the Flagellant. Instead of all that nonlethal damage bringing you closer to a KO, it takes you closer to a detrimental effect. I'd rather not see 'taxing' as laying down on the ground but taking penalties.

Huh. Apparently in my edit for wording, I pulled that part.

The reason I used the whole "by increasing the burn cost of a kinetic blast" was to make it so the move action could eat that point.

If you made the second one a "normal" action...? Like a standard action? I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
The second one was meant to be defensive, reactive, to your native element, showing an affinity for dealing with it. Wouldn't make sense as a standard action.
Reactive costs you burn. Anticipating such an attack, you can effectively ready your move action to cut the burn by 1.

I think allowing them to boost their to-hit and cut a defense cost in the same round would be entirely too good.

As is, the ability costs you burn every round AND you immediate/swift action plus I'm unsure if the ready gather energy trick would work and even if it did, it means that it's ALL you are doing. That most likely causes me non-leathal damage constantly to avoid elememtal damage. I'm not a fan of that.

Let me post how I'd like it.

As a Swift action you may accept 1 burn to gain Resistance to that energy equal to 3x your Kineticist level for 1 minute.
You may instead provide this benefit to an ally within 30ft, though doing so inflicts 2 burn instead. With Gather Energy you may reduce this burn cost by 1 (minimum 0).


Aw hell, has anyone else realized that the Burn mechanic is like the Kaio-Ken ability from DBZ?

Kaio-Ken is used to channel more energy than normal, but your body can handle only so much. If you go over that limit, it will harm you, but training can allow you to withstand more.


Tels wrote:

Aw hell, has anyone else realized that the Burn mechanic is like the Kaio-Ken ability from DBZ?

Kaio-Ken is used to channel more energy than normal, but your body can handle only so much. If you go over that limit, it will harm you, but training can allow you to withstand more.

If I remember correctly, the effect was quite powerful, doubling the power of the user, that also could withstand it for a time without his body suffering damage. If he went over his capacity, it would start to wound him, but otherwise it was just a bit tiring.

I would say that the kaio-ken users from DBZ had a non damaging margin to use the technique. Like the idea of having 1 or 2 free burn points/round. Once they went over that, to get 4x, 8x or 16x the power, things started to get dangerous. As they trained more, the were able to use a higher version without risk (like a growing tolerance of damage free burn).


So, maybe the effects of 1 burn per 5 Kineticist levels can be ignored?


Tels wrote:
So, maybe the effects of 1 burn per 5 Kineticist levels can be ignored?

I think that would do the trick.

Grand Lodge

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Tels wrote:

Aw hell, has anyone else realized that the Burn mechanic is like the Kaio-Ken ability from DBZ?

Kaio-Ken is used to channel more energy than normal, but your body can handle only so much. If you go over that limit, it will harm you, but training can allow you to withstand more.

Does standing in one place screaming for hours/days/weeks empower this ability?


I could see using exactly that... In place of the Form and Substance Specialization. In all reality, that's exactly what you just described : Up to 5 Burn a Round being ignored.

@ Kestral, I've edited a few things, added a talent or three, dropped the X-mind (in hind sight it's not the power it's the flavor, I just can't get it to make thematic sense).
I fixed some formatting, and put the Flesh to Stone down a Mastery Level, and added burn as a cost for it.
I dropped most of the AOE table to nearly half the original value, capping Cone at 60 Ft, and Line at 100.

Replaced the second instance of Sphere on Geo with Trap, so even if Light/Dark get removed as elements Trap might still be a usable Form. I had moved a few forms around and not seen that error.

Adjusted Scar to temporary (it was meant to be temporary, I just picked wording to make it clear it was doing Ability Damage by mutilating the target in some way) and plugged a few reasonable feeling numbers in.

Also made it clear that Magic Weapons did not work with Tele blast, but added a talent to let them use a Magic Weapon at range as a kind of TK only style.

Hope you get a better read of it, I'm taking ideas from everyone and everywhere to put into this Fanbuild, as a way to see people's ideas laid out in context to each other. Saying "lets consider this" is easier if you can plug it in to a real design. It lets me see how things might interact a little easier, especially with as many changes as I've seen suggested.

Designer

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blackbloodtroll wrote:
Tels wrote:

Aw hell, has anyone else realized that the Burn mechanic is like the Kaio-Ken ability from DBZ?

Kaio-Ken is used to channel more energy than normal, but your body can handle only so much. If you go over that limit, it will harm you, but training can allow you to withstand more.

Does standing in one place screaming for hours/days/weeks empower this ability?

Kaio-Ken

Prerequisites: Power Level 9001
Benefit: For each half-hour you scream and grunt inarticulately, the GM plays out a cut-scene with other characters reacting to your power charge. When you release this charge, if you charged for at least 1 hour, reduce your total burn by 2 and you can apply your available metakineses twice. If you charged for at least 8 hours, reduce your total burn by 4, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses three times. If you charged for at least 24 hours, reduce your total burn by 6, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses four times. If you charged for at least 72 hours, reduce your total burn by 8, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses five times. If you charged for at least 168 hours (1 full week), reduce your total burn by 10, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn and you can double the normal limit of 3+Constitution modifier on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses six times.

Grand Lodge

Mark Seifter wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Tels wrote:

Aw hell, has anyone else realized that the Burn mechanic is like the Kaio-Ken ability from DBZ?

Kaio-Ken is used to channel more energy than normal, but your body can handle only so much. If you go over that limit, it will harm you, but training can allow you to withstand more.

Does standing in one place screaming for hours/days/weeks empower this ability?

Kaio-Ken

Prerequisites: Power Level 9001
Benefit: For each half-hour you scream and grunt inarticulately, the GM plays out a cut-scene with other characters reacting to your power charge. When you release this charge, if you charged for at least 1 hour, reduce your total burn by 2 and you can apply your available metakineses twice. If you charged for at least 8 hours, reduce your total burn by 4, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses three times. If you charged for at least 24 hours, reduce your total burn by 6, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses four times. If you charged for at least 72 hours, reduce your total burn by 8, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses five times. If you charged for at least 168 hours (1 full week), reduce your total burn by 10, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn and you can double the normal limit of 3+Constitution modifier on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses six times.

...and now I have coffee all over my keyboard, and in my nose.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Tels wrote:

Aw hell, has anyone else realized that the Burn mechanic is like the Kaio-Ken ability from DBZ?

Kaio-Ken is used to channel more energy than normal, but your body can handle only so much. If you go over that limit, it will harm you, but training can allow you to withstand more.

Does standing in one place screaming for hours/days/weeks empower this ability?

Kaio-Ken

Prerequisites: Power Level 9001
Benefit: For each half-hour you scream and grunt inarticulately, the GM plays out a cut-scene with other characters reacting to your power charge. When you release this charge, if you charged for at least 1 hour, reduce your total burn by 2 and you can apply your available metakineses twice. If you charged for at least 8 hours, reduce your total burn by 4, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses three times. If you charged for at least 24 hours, reduce your total burn by 6, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses four times. If you charged for at least 72 hours, reduce your total burn by 8, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses five times. If you charged for at least 168 hours (1 full week), reduce your total burn by 10, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn and you can double the normal limit of 3+Constitution modifier on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses six times.

Proof Mark is best designer :P

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