@MechE
You are correct, somehow my math was off. It won't let me edit the post, so the hit points should be 67, and the +1 mithral full plate should be replaced with +1 Tatami-do and +1 Ring of Protection, lowering the AC by 1.
@MechE
You are correct, somehow my math was off. It won't let me edit the post, so the hit points should be 67, and the +1 mithral full plate should be replaced with +1 Tatami-do and +1 Ring of Protection, lowering the AC by 1.
Sounds good - And the attack routines? Those seem a bit off to me as well...
As for the level 11 dwarf, he should end up looking something like this:
STR 18 DEX 21 CON 18 INT 7 WIS 12 CHA 5
Init +7
AC 35, touch 17, flat-footed 30 (+11 armor, +2 deflection, +5 Dex, +7 shield)
hp 120
Fort +14, Ref +11, Will +7; +2 vs. charm and compulsion, +3 vs. fear, +2 vs. spells
Melee +2 Dwarven waraxe +18/+13/+8 (1d10+16/x3) and +3 bashing heavy steel shield +20/+15 (1d8+18/x2)
Special Attacks weapon training 2 (axes, close)
Skills Perception +12
Feats Double Slice, Greater Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Shield Focus, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Shield Focus, Shield Master, Shield Slam, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe, Weapon Specialization: Dwarven Waraxe
Traits Birthmark, Veteran of Battle
Notable gear +2 Dwarven waraxe, +3 bashing heavy steel shield, +3 O-yoroi, belt of physical perfection +2, cloak of resistance +3, gloves of dueling, featherstep slippers, ring of protection +2, throwing axes
Takes me a little longer to spend 82000gp than I thought.
I think I got all of that right. Somebody else can correct me, I'm sure. The amazing part is, with Shield Slam, I feel this guy can maneuver through a battlefield more effectively than a swash. Depressing.
A shame you didn't say 12th level, since Cronin gets Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Rend. Ah well. Would have liked to work in Steel Soul somewhere, probably competing with Bashing Finish as a level 13 feat.
As for the level 11 dwarf, he should end up looking something like this:
** spoiler omitted **
Takes me a little longer to spend 82000gp than I thought.
I think I got all of that right. Somebody else can correct me, I'm sure. The amazing part is, with Shield Slam, I feel this guy can maneuver through a battlefield more effectively than a swash. Depressing.
A shame you didn't say 12th level, since Cronin gets Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Rend. Ah well. Would have liked to work in Steel Soul somewhere, probably competing with Bashing Finish as a level 13 feat.
Ugh, not wanting to build up an 11th level Swashbuckler at the moment.
Let's finish off the 6th level builds (I asked you to double check your attack routines and damages) and I'll write up a comparison.
Alas, but it must be another day. I am already late to meet my girlfriend as it is, which means I'm probably not going to be on these forums for a while. That said, I don't know how productive it is. Sword and Board really isn't the most effective fighter until mid-to-high levels. And as soon as we fight an elemental, the differences become extreme.
Bye for now!
Dwarf Fighter 6
STR 18 DEX 18 CON 16 INT 7 WIS 12 CHA 5
Init +5
AC 28, touch 14, flat-footed 24 (+10 armor, +4 Dex, +4 shield)
hp 61
Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +5; +2 vs. fear, +2 vs. charm and compulsion effects, +2 vs. spells
Melee +1 Dwarven waraxe +13/+8 (1d10+12/x3) OR +1 Dwarven waraxe +11/+6 (1d10+12/x3) and +1 light steel shield +6 (1d4+8/x2)
Special Attacks weapon training 1 (axes)
Skills Perception +7
Feats Double Slice, Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack, Shield Focus, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe, Weapon Specialization: Dwarven Waraxe
Traits Birthmark, Veteran of Battle
Notable gear +1 Dwarven waraxe, +1 mithril full plate, +1 light steel shield, belt of giant strength +2, cloak of resistance +2, potion of fly, some throwing axes.Just off the top of my head, so there is probably a better way to do it. Took the feats as though I would eventually be going for Shield Master (because he would be). He has a tough time hitting right now, but once this guy hits 11 or 12 he is an absolute monster.
@MechE
You are correct, somehow my math was off. It won't let me edit the post, so the hit points should be 67, and the +1 mithral full plate should be replaced with +1 Tatami-do and +1 Ring of Protection, lowering the AC by 1.
I'm going to build up a Human instead of an Elf, since it's mechanically better - though I'd personally play an Elf for flavor reasons. Also, I hate point buy and dump stats, but understand why people do it, so here goes...
Stats: Str 12, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 12
Init: +9
AC: 27, Touch: 19, Flat-Footed: 19 (+5 Armor, +6 Dex, +2 Shield, +1 Deflection, +1 Natural Armor, +2 Dodge)
HP: 64
Fort: +8, Ref: +13, Will: +6 +2 vs Fear Effects
Melee: +1 Rapier +15/+10 (1d6+11/15-20 x2)
Swashbuckler Weapon Training, Nimble +1
Skills: Acrobatics: +12, Diplomacy: +10, Escape Artist: +12, Perception: +10
Feats: Weapon Focus - Rapier, Weapon Specialization - Rapier, Dodge, Improved Critical, Toughness, Great Fortitude
Traits: Reactionary, Indomitable Faith
Notable Gear: +1 Rapier, +1 Mithral Chainshirt, +1 Buckler, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Deflection, +2 Cloak of Protetcion, +2 Belt of Dexterity
So since Knick got busy, here's the corrected Attack Routines...
Base Dwarven Waraxe Calculations
Attack = +13 (+4 Str, +6 BAB, +1 Magic, +1 Training, +1 Focus)
Damage = +8 (+4 Str, +2 Spec, +1 Magic, +1 Training)
Dwarven Waraxe +1, +13/+8 (1d10+8/x3) - DPR = 15.6 on a full attack
Power Attack - Dwarven Waraxe +1, +11/+6 (1d10+12/x3) - DPR = 16.4
Dwarven Waraxe +1, +11/+6 (1d10+8/x3) and Masterwork Light Steel Shield +9 (1d4+5/x2) - DPR = 12.6 + 5.4 = 18.0
Power Attack - Dwarven Waraxe +1, +9/+4 (1d10+12/x3) and Masterwork Light Steel Shield +7 (1d4+9/x2) - DPR = 12.5 + 4.4 = 16.9
Survivability: Dwarven Fighter's got a bit of an edge in survivbility with the HP, but the armor classes are equal and the Touch AC is significantly higher for the Swashbuckler who also has a full 4 point advantage on initiative to avoid being caught with his lower flat footed AC. Saves are probably a BIT better for the fighter, being a Dwarf, but are otherwise similar.
Offense: Swashbuckler comes in at a measly 21.3 DPR on a full attack against an AC of 20 - a bit disappointing to me. Then again, the Sword and Board fighter comes out at a DPR of only 18.0, so this is a win for the Swashbuckler on this one.
Out of Combat Contributions: Swashbuckler obviously takes the cake here. It isn't even a contest, and I feel that this is the thing a lot of people are forgetting in the class comparisons. Swashbucklers have the ability to perform many parts of the party face while still being effective in combat.
6th level, 20 Point buy, WBL, Core rulebooks only.
Stats: Str 12, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 12
Init: +9
AC: 27, Touch: 19, Flat-Footed: 19 (+5 Armor, +6 Dex, +2 Shield, +1 Deflection, +1 Natural Armor, +2 Dodge)
HP: 64
Fort: +8, Ref: +13, Will: +6 +2 vs Fear Effects
Melee: +1 Rapier +15/+10 (1d6+11/15-20 x2)...It should be noted that while your hit rolls are a little better its still two attacks vs his three and your damage can drop dramatically against crit immune or fortified enemies. Also your damage relies on not using your class abilities just for you to keep up with the baseline fighter. And of course, your critical hits are less impressive than they look in that format since you only hit for 2d6+16
What i see is a class that can keep up with AC(mostly), almost keep up with damage (assuming the baseline isnt trying too optimize for it), and should just steer clear of anything that might require a saving throw... i want to love the Swashbuckler, i really do...
I am aware that the crits are not as impressive as everyone else in this thread should be. I did the DPR calculations taking that into consideration and the DPR for the Swashbuckler wins out against AC 20 by 18% (21.3 vs 18.0). Precision immune monsters will be a problem and I'd prefer that this limitation be removed from the class, but Precision immune monsters are rare, so it's not something we should get hung up on.
I completely agree that the saving throws are a liability and would love to see them get some attention. Keeping up with AC with a Sword & Board fighter (highest "standard" AC builds) is rather impressive, though the Sword & Board will probably pull ahead in the later levels. The reason you shouldn't be "optimizing" a comparison is that the Swashbuckler is only a play test version, there are no archetypes - some of which will certainly focus on increasing the Swashbucklers effectiveness in combat. Also, many people are expecting far too much out of the Swashbuckler at this early juncture in terms of DPR.
Rynjin, your playtest feedback was great, and always more valuable than mere opinion.
One thing bothered me though:-
It damages well, assuming a Dex based build (not a problem in my eyes since it is the base of the theme)....but...your playtest swashbuckler gets Dex to damage (via the Agile magic weapon ability). That's what gives you good damage, that's what motivates a Dex-based build and that's what makes it satisfyingly like a thematic swashbuckler.
If you didn't have access to that Agile enchantment, would it have 'damaged well'? would you have been happy with a Dex-based build? would you have built it differently? Would it have felt like a swashbuckler?
I don't feel that the class should require a specific magic item enchantment in order to succeed at modelling a swashbuckler.
What do you think?
That would be the sticking point, sadly. You're very limited in your build options overall. There is "Agile weapon user" and "Dervish Dance user" without much else going on there if you want to A.) Fit the theme, and B.) Use half of your class features.
He's a bit like the Monk in that regard, though Str based Monk builds have the benefit of not giving up half their class features.
Without the Agile weapon, it isn't doing HORRIBLY. +1 Str, +1 weapon (+2 from the money you save, actually), +2 Weapon Specialization (this requires an assumption on my part, that the Swashbuckler and by extension the other classes count as their parent classes for Feats, since the Brawler does) +4 Power Attack, +7 Precise Strike for a total of +15-16, only 4-5 down from the Agile build (though that is a significant chunk, at least it's not crippling).
But compared to other front-line options that can get multiple attacks at a similar or slightly lower damage, or two-hander users, it kinda falls flat without the Agile enhancement.
I could have done a bit better and had more breathing room on skills and Will saves had I dumped Cha to 7 and not bothered with the headband, which I find to be a flaw in the class, at least thematically. I would have lost some points off my Intimidate bonus (something that was a side benefit and only invested in because of Menacing Swordplay anyway) and only ONE Panache point, but would have been able to raise both Int and Wis up by one, and afford the "holy duo" of AC items (Ring of Protection and Amulet of Natural Armor), or made my bow magical.
Being reliant on an item or Feat tax is rough. It doesn't make the class unplayable by any stretch but it does make it an undesirable option, though a bit better than most classes going for Agile by sheer benefit of the full BaB and Weapon Training boosting them slightly (actually I forgot about Weapon Training, I may have been totaling up my damage wrong...).
That raises another question, actually, does a Swashbuckler fall into the "Same mechanics, different name" caveat from the FAQ of qualifying for prerequisites that require Weapon Training (like Gloves of Dueling)? That one was intended for archetypes, but as these are officially being called Alternate classes right now (which are also officially likened to "expanded archetypes") I think it might, which is neat.
I will say that while the Swashbuckler held NO interest for me before I ran this playtest (I threw one together about an hour before the playtest because I didn't see a point in running the Investigator I was intending to run, due to the upcoming changes), I do see a lot of potential for fun in this class now. Needs some tweaking, but I do like it.
I'm going to build one tonight, and maybe use some style feats. I'm a big fan of panther/snake, so maybe I can make something interesting.
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Dwarf Fighter 6
STR 18 DEX 18 CON 16 INT 7 WIS 12 CHA 5
Init +5
AC 28, touch 14, flat-footed 24 (+10 armor, +4 Dex, +4 shield)
hp 61
Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +5; +2 vs. fear, +2 vs. charm and compulsion effects, +2 vs. spells
Melee +1 Dwarven waraxe +13/+8 (1d10+12/x3) OR +1 Dwarven waraxe +11/+6 (1d10+12/x3) and +1 light steel shield +6 (1d4+8/x2)
Special Attacks weapon training 1 (axes)
Skills Perception +7
Feats Double Slice, Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack, Shield Focus, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe, Weapon Specialization: Dwarven Waraxe
Traits Birthmark, Veteran of Battle
Notable gear +1 Dwarven waraxe, +1 mithril full plate, +1 light steel shield, belt of giant strength +2, cloak of resistance +2, potion of fly, some throwing axes.Just off the top of my head, so there is probably a better way to do it. Took the feats as though I would eventually be going for Shield Master (because he would be). He has a tough time hitting right now, but once this guy hits 11 or 12 he is an absolute monster.
First, I think you overspent on gold. Maybe you forgot that a +1 Mithral full plate is worth 10,000 gp. So please adjust the build to fix.
Also, 61 HP looks to be incorrect - I think it should be 64?
Also, did you remember to take power attack into consideration? Something about your attack routines seems off. Double check them?
I'm going to build up a Human instead of an Elf, since it's mechanically better - though I'd personally play an Elf for flavor reasons. Also, I hate point buy and dump stats, but understand why people do it, so here goes...
Stats: Str 12, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 12
Init: +9
AC: 27, Touch: 19, Flat-Footed: 19 (+5 Armor, +6 Dex, +2 Shield, +1
Deflection, +1 Natural Armor, +2 Dodge)
HP: 64
Fort: +8, Ref: +13, Will: +6 +2 vs Fear Effects
Melee: +1 Rapier +15/+10 (1d6+11/15-20 x2)...
My problem with the class is this: take he exact same swash, but swap Str and Dex, and swap crit focus for Power Attack.
Which is the more effective martial?
My problem with the class is this: take he exact same swash, but swap Str and Dex, and swap crit focus for Power Attack.
Which is the more effective martial?
Improved Critical is coming from the class itself, not a selectable bonus feat, so you can't swap it out. You could, of course, give up another feat (Dodge probably, since you wouldn't have the required Dex anyway.) Thus, your attack routine would end up at...
Melee: +1 Rapier +15/+10 (1d6+16/15-20 x2) = 29.4 DPR
Melee Power Attack: +1 Rapier +13/+18 (1d6+20/15-20 x2) = 30.2 DPR
So we went from 21.3 DPR up to 30.2 DPR, an increase of 42%, which is very significant and not something to scoff at.
To increase our damage by 42%, however, we lost the following:
• 6 points of Armor class
• 5 points of Initiative bonus
• 5 points of Touch ac
• 5 points of Acrobatics & Escape Artist bonuses
• 5 points of reflex save bonus
Is that an acceptable trade off?
I think the tradeoff is acceptable if you are comfortable with being all offense and minimal defense. I would absolutely not take it - 21 Armor class at 6th level does not sound very survivable for a front line fighter. (Unconscious/dead characters always deal exactly 0 DPR.) Also, it is worth reminding you that as the static bonus from Precise Strike scales up into the higher levels, the damage increase from a +6 (+9 eventually) strength bonus will become less significant.
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So I got a chance to playtest the Swashbuckler at 1st level and second level. I built him with a Dexterity/Charisma focus and I kept Str at 10. I found what I expected at first level. I couldn't hit squat. I never came close. It was underwhelming at first level. I hate saying that, I really want to love this class. It needs Weapon Finesse at 1st level, desperately.
When I playtested him at 2nd level I was able to hit, relatively consistently. I would like to see his options for his class features expended to include light and one-handed Slashing weapons. This way it add some variety. to the class.
I was underwhelmed by one other class feature, the Parry and Riposte Deeds. It was only when I played the class that I noticed that I had to declare a parry attempt before I even knew if my opponent hit me. Given that I am spending a very limited resource, Panache, upon declaration of the parry attempt. I never used the ability.
Given the limitations of this ability, I can honestly say I would never use it at any level. This makes me sad.
In my opinion, there is no reason to have the parry deed use up a Panache, an Attack of Opportunity, and have to be declared before you even know if the attack hits. The parry deed needs to let you declare its use after your opponents attack total is declared. Anything less makes this power completely unusable. I would also remove either the Panache expenditure or the Attack of Opportunity expenditure.
In my opinion, change it to: must have at least one Panache remaining and uses one Attack of Opportunity, and allow the Swashbuckler to declare its use after they here what AC their opponent has hit.
I think Riposte as written or changing the Attack of opportunity to an immediate action is okay.
At higher levels, the best defense is a good offense, particularly when it all comes from a dodge bonus.
Looking through my playtest AP here, I'm seeing a lot of +17s to hit around this level range, like this one on something with around 90 HP. That's going to hit more often than not with a 21 AC, but even if you pump it to a 27, that's a 55% chance to hit. If just one of those lands, you're looking at 2 fort saves, which you also have a 55% chance at with this setup. One of those is against several rounds of paralysis. Those are not odds you want to deal with for long. The faster you can bring this down, the better.
Later, you end up with things taking huge numbers of attacks at what get to be some real silly bonuses. Keep buying your AC up instead of focusing on damage and the odds of each attack landing might stay the same, but the sheer volume's still going to leave you taking some very hard hits, and their staying power climbs up fast too. If you can take something down with a single full attack meanwhile and let them come to you, you might end up taking a real nasty hit in that first round with no way to avoid it, but the rest won't land.
The low dex swashbuckler probably dies before getting to the point where that applies though. AC totally matters at first level.
I was underwhelmed by one other class feature, the Parry and Riposte Deeds. It was only when I played the class that I noticed that I had to declare a parry attempt before I even knew if my opponent hit me. Given that I am spending a very limited resource, Panache, upon declaration of the parry attempt. I never used the ability.
Given the limitations of this ability, I can honestly say I would never use it at any level. This makes me sad.
In my opinion, there is no reason to have the parry deed use up a Panache, an Attack of Opportunity, and have to be declared before you even know if the attack hits. The parry deed needs to let you declare its use after your opponents attack total is declared. Anything less makes this power completely unusable. I would also remove either the Panache expenditure or the Attack of Opportunity expenditure.
In my opinion, change it to: must have at least one Panache remaining and uses one Attack of Opportunity, and allow the Swashbuckler to declare its use after they here what AC their opponent has hit.
I think Riposte as written or changing the Attack of opportunity to an immediate action is okay.
My thoughts:
• Parry should be able to be declared after the attack roll total is known. It should still cost 1 Panache and an attack of opportunity. This deed should NOT be eligible for reduction via the Signature Deed feat in my opinion.
• Improved Crticial at level 5 is really unnecessary - it's a good feat for rebuilding Panache and it's nice to have early, but it would feel more appropriate if the Swashbuckler got Combat Reflex at 5th level. Make them buy improved critical on their own with the 8th level bonus feat if they want to.
• Riposte depends upon Parry to be useful. I would have it cost 1 Panache point and another attack of opportunity - no action cost. I would allow this to be reduced via the Signature Deed feat. This provides good incentives to pump up Dexterity, which will naturally work well with the free Combat Reflexes feat.
One question about the Parry deed. How does it function if my opponent rolls a natural 20?
An attack roll of natural 20 always hits. But since the Parry feat is essentially an opposed attack roll, I would rule that a natural 20 could only be parried by another natural 20 and then only if the Parry bonus is enough to overcome the opposing attack roll.
At higher levels, the best defense is a good offense, particularly when it all comes from a dodge bonus.
Looking through my playtest AP here, I'm seeing a lot of +17s to hit around this level range, like this one on something with around 90 HP. That's going to hit more often than not with a 21 AC, but even if you pump it to a 27, that's a 55% chance to hit. If just one of those lands, you're looking at 2 fort saves, which you also have a 55% chance at with this setup. One of those is against several rounds of paralysis. Those are not odds you want to deal with for long. The faster you can bring this down, the better.
Later, you end up with things taking huge numbers of attacks at what get to be some real silly bonuses. Keep buying your AC up instead of focusing on damage and the odds of each attack landing might stay the same, but the sheer volume's still going to leave you taking some very hard hits, and their staying power climbs up fast too. If you can take something down with a single full attack meanwhile and let them come to you, you might end up taking a real nasty hit in that first round with no way to avoid it, but the rest won't land.
The low dex swashbuckler probably dies before getting to the point where that applies though. AC totally matters at first level.
Having played past level 15 in two separate APs, I'm familiar with the rocket tag issue as the game ramps up in levels. It has not been nearly as big an issue in the games we play (core rulebook line only) and it is my opinion that the problem is often regularly over stated in defense of DPR optimization. Regardless of that, my point that an unconscious/dead character does no damage still stands.
Also, Picking a single enemy that forces fort saves on a successful attack, however, is not representative of the whole slew of monsters that a PC will encounter at a particular level and does not disprove that 6 points of AC is a significant sacrifice. (Ultimately, I doubt any Swashbuckler will go for only a 12 in Dex, but I'm happy with the fact that each Swashbuckler can choose to balance Str and Dex as they desire with offensive and defensive tradeoffs.)
Representative data - the high attack of a CR 10 enemy is +18 while the low attack of a CR 4 enemy is only +6. This means that you'll likely fight a single enemy who hits for +17 or +18 as a single BBEG but will be much more likely to fight multiple enemies in the +10 to +14 range. Such enemies have a 15% - 30% chance to hit AC 27 and a 45% - 60% chance to hit AC 21. This means that an AC 21 Swashbuckler will get hit over twice as often by these enemies as an AC 27 Swashbuckler would.
It is my opinion that an AC 21 Swashbuckler would be unable to serve as the primary melee fighter for a group of 4 due to a lack of staying power. I have, however, play tested an AC 26 Swashbuckler (not 27, but close) and she served a 4 man party well as the primary melee combatant, with enough staying power to stand up even to a BBEG for 3 rounds while the rest of the party helped her take him down.
I disagree on the Improved Critical bit, I think it fits well with the "one well aimed strike" flavor and really helps the class mechanically as well.
Would be nice if there were a Deed that replicated the effects of Combat Reflexes though (as long as you have 1 Panache), perhaps in place of Bravery, since it's pretty ehhhh anyway.
What if there was a deed that let you spend 1 panache point and gain the use of a feat for 1 round?
Also, what about a deed that lets you convert the damage from a hit into non-lethal damage? Or make a critical hit a normal hit?
We ran two playtest that included a swashbuckler... one at 4th level, one at 7th level. At 4th level, the swashbuckler was a bit mediocre. Some of that was because we had an entire party of hard-hitting melee characters, so the swashbuckler's panache was quickly used up and all the other hitters made it hard to get a killing blow in. At 7th level the swashbuckler was really great... he was critting all over the place and easily replenished his panache.
We haven't played one up from 1st level, so haven't had direct experience with the pain of no finesse until 2nd, but I can see that it would be annoying. However, I understand the wish to avoid easy dips, and it's not much different from the pain non-human or non-fighter archers have to go through waiting for precise shot, or the pain of a 1st-level wizard who is instantly out of spells. I think the class is still quite workable even if finesse is kept at 2nd. I did like one person's suggestion of giving the swashbuckler combat expertise... the flavor of the class is well-suited for fancy trip/disarm maneuvers, but with the need for charisma it really can't afford a 13 Int. It would be nice for the class to get the feat as a bonus somewhere along the line... or perhaps be able to qualify for the feat using charisma instead of intelligence.
I didn't see any problem with the weapon limitation... but then, we like rapiers. I also didn't see any need to change the precise strike (other than to make it effective on anything that can be critted). The 7th level version was doing PLENTY of damage! Not as much as a raging/power-attacking/two-handed weapon Barbarian... but that's not the role I see for this class. When I was first looking at the class, I was mentally comparing it to a rogue rather than to a fighter. It has the rogue's light armor, restricted weapons, and emphasis on skills... but gets full BAB and d10hp, and doesn't have to get into flank to get its extra damage. It loses the trap finding... but isn't squishy. We quite enjoyed it.
Someone also brought up the relative scarcity of trapfinding. This is true... but you can always take the trait that makes disable device a class skill, and train up your wizard or witch or arcanist with it. Their int bonus goes a long ways towards compensating for the lack of level bonus. And of course alchemists can also do that without the need for the trait. Despite my comparison of swashbuckler to rogue, I don't think the swashbuckler needs trapfinding added to it.
I did like one person's suggestion of giving the swashbuckler combat expertise... the flavor of the class is well-suited for fancy trip/disarm maneuvers, but with the need for charisma it really can't afford a 13 Int. It would be nice for the class to get the feat as a bonus somewhere along the line... or perhaps be able to qualify for the feat using charisma instead of intelligence.
I also love the idea of making a combat maneuver build easier for Swashbucklers but I think that suggestions like this are better posed as Archetype suggestions than changes to the base class. For example, I would love to see an archetype that replaced the bonus feats gained at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level with a list of specific feats which could be chosen without the need to meet prerequisites - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Sunder, etc.
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Shhh, your logic has no place here.
For those who are concerned with people dipping into this class for Weapon Finesse, how is that different than a dip into Fighter for the same effect?
Mostly because then they can dip fighter afterwards and get another feat is my guess, which wouldn't matter if they cannot take fighter levels after taking swashbuckler, though that seems to be a very not favorable thing here.
Mostly because then they can dip fighter afterwards and get another feat is my guess
Or, you know...they could just take another level of Fighter. They get a bonus Feat at 2nd as well.
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Fighters don't get panache at level 1 or access to deeds or 4 skills a level (who's dip permanently gives a +3 class skill bonus).
They're not likely to have much use for Panache, however. Recovery once per day, or an extra +1 damage IF they use a one handed piercing weapon (possible, but not likely, and if they are going full Swashbuckler is probably better than dipping it).
Gaining a few class skills and an extra 2-4 skill points for one level is what a LOT of dips do, that's not particularly relevant.
Most of the time when someone dips, it's got nothing to do with skill points and everything to do with class features. Like dipping Wizard 1 level to gain access to all the Wizard Wands without needing to UMD, or dipping Bard for Dervish Dance, or Dipping two levels of Master of Many Styles to gain access to 2 Style feats without needing to meet pre-requisites.
Don't forget Paladin 2 for Charisma to all saves. Oracle 1 for Charisma to replace Dexterity for AC and Reflex. Trench Fighter 3 for two bonus feats and our old favorite, Dex to Damage. Inquisitor 1 if you want skills and bonuses to them - and dump Charisma & use Wisdom to be the party face! Come to think of it, I have no idea why I thought Paizo didn't want people dipping.
Solidly ahead of a sword and board fighter in what regard exactly?
And equally built how?
Sword and Board fighters are excellent.
Let's try this again Lord Malkov... Post a 6th level 20 point buy Sword & Board Fighter build (using material from core rulebooks only and no Archetypes) with appropriate WBL (16k, I think) and I'll post my 6th level Elven Swashbuckler.
If you want to discuss higher level builds after that, I'll gladly throw together an 11th level Swashbuckler for comparison.
Edit: Nevermind, seems Knick beat you to it.
1. I was asking you for clarification. You made a statement saying that the swashbuckler was "solidly ahead" of the sword and board fighter (a mid to late level build). I wanted to know why exactly, he was solidly ahead.
2. You want a comparison, lets make a comparison. Firstly, at level 6, then at a level where the Sword and Board fighter really shines (though they shine earlier with archtypes, it is very fair to disinclude these since the swash doesn't have any)
So, here is MY SnB fighter:
Side Note: I will avoid the cheese that is fighting with 2 shields for the moment.
Dwarf Fighter lvl 6 (20 pt.)
Str: 18 (+2 belt)
Dex: 17 (+1 at 4th)
Con: 16 (+2 race)
Int: 10
Wis: 10 (+2 race)
Cha: 5 (-2 race)
Feats:
1. Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash
2. Double Slice
3. Power Attack
4. Weapon Focus Short Sword
5. Weapon Specialization Short Sword (Weapon Training Blades)
6. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Gear: (16k WBL)
+2 belt of strength
+1 Full plate
MW Heavy Steel Shield
+1 Shortsword
+1 Shortsword
+1 Cloak of Resistance
Composite Bow, Arrows, clothes etc.
DEFENSES
HP: 61
AC: 23
F:9 R:6 W:3 (+2 vs. spells)
See, the issue is that fighters can't really be shield bashers until level 11... sure you can try, but you are better off just using TWF until you get there. This is still built as an SnB fighter, just using different weapons until he can get to a higher level.
OFFENSE
Attack (+6 bab, +1 weapon training, +4 str, -2 twf, +1 for the short sword focus +1 to each for magic)
Full Attack: Swords! +11/+11/+6/+6 (1d6+8)
DPR vs. AC 20: 21.85 before factoring in crits.
With crits (10% chance, avg confirm chances of 47.5%, 4 attacks, so extra 1.89 dpr, for a total of 23.73)
There is no point in power attacking vs. AC 20, using TWF, so I just didn't bother.
So SnB fighters are built for late game when they get T.W.Rend, Shield Master, Bashing Finish etc. etc. so we should probably be comparing at level 13-14. Before then, they are better off focusing on just using two weapons. The AC trade-offs aren't really any good until you can start getting some nice magic shields. Still, the build is a shield bash build with all the necessary feats.
Feel free to post a level 11+ build for comparison. Really go for broke . That is when the SnB fighter is amazing. It is also when TWF starts to pay off.
Up until then use
Dwarven Fighter lvl 6
Str: 20 (+2 belt,+1 at 4th)
Dex: 12
Con: 16 (+2 race)
Int: 12
Wis: 10 (+2 race)
Cha: 8 (-2 race)
Feats:
1. Power Attack, Weapon Focus Nodachi
2. Furious Focus
3. Steel Soul
4. Weapon Specialization Nodachi
5. Iron Will
6. Lunge
Gear: (16k WBL)
+2 belt of strength
+1 Full plate
MW Heavy Steel Shield
+1 Greatsword
+1 Cloak of Resistance
+1 RoP
Composite Bow, Arrows, clothes etc.
DEFENSES
HP: 61
AC: 22
F:9 R:4 W:6 (+4 vs. spells)
OFFENSE
(bab +6, str +5, +1 focus, +1 weapon, -2 PA)
Full attack (power attacking): +11/+6 (2d6+16)
DPR vs. AC 20 = 21.85 without crits. 23.93 with crits factored in.
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Your feats are for a Nodachi, but you bought a Greatsword in that second Dwarf build. Any reason why?
I didn't see any problem with the weapon limitation... but then, we like rapiers. I also didn't see any need to change the precise strike (other than to make it effective on anything that can be critted). The 7th level version was doing PLENTY of damage! Not as much as a raging/power-attacking/two-handed weapon Barbarian... but that's not the role I see for this class. When I was first looking at the class, I was mentally comparing it to a rogue rather than to a fighter. It has the rogue's light armor, restricted weapons, and emphasis on skills... but gets full BAB and d10hp, and doesn't have to get into flank to get its extra damage. It loses the trap finding... but isn't squishy. We quite enjoyed it.
What emphasis on skills? It's 4 points vs. 8. Their class skill list isn't particularly roguish either, and they don't get any extra damage, flanking or otherwise (as I keep repeating, precise strike damage is restricted to swashbucklers who use a one-hand-only fighting style, and all it does for them is replace the damage lost by doing so).
If they did have some crazy pile of skill points and snazzy rogue talents, their damage and survivability would be pretty reasonable as is, but they don't. What they get is a significantly reduced version the skill set of a fighter, coupled with the general squishiness of a rogue.
Mostly because then they can dip fighter afterwards and get another feat is my guessOr, you know...they could just take another level of Fighter. They get a bonus Feat at 2nd as well.
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Fighters don't get panache at level 1 or access to deeds or 4 skills a level (who's dip permanently gives a +3 class skill bonus).
They're not likely to have much use for Panache, however. Recovery once per day, or an extra +1 damage IF they use a one handed piercing weapon (possible, but not likely, and if they are going full Swashbuckler is probably better than dipping it).
Gaining a few class skills and an extra 2-4 skill points for one level is what a LOT of dips do, that's not particularly relevant.
Compare a 1 level dip into Dawnflower Dervish Bard vs. Swashbuckler. Even if Swashbucklers were given weapon finesse and dex-to-damage at level 1 with no other changes, here's another option where you get both of those, 2 more skill points, better saves, way better skill access, some spells,and the ability to slap a +2/+2 bonus on yourself for several rounds a day.
All the swash gets over that is 2 HP, 1 BAB, and the deeds you're never going to actually use as an actual swashbuckler. And assuming the class was given this pro-dex stuff at first level, those deeds would probably move up higher anyway.
Why would you dip dervish of dawn when you could just stay in it? Way more versatile dextrous fighter character...
Solidly ahead of a sword and board fighter in what regard exactly?
And equally built how?
Sword and Board fighters are excellent.
Let's try this again Lord Malkov... Post a 6th level 20 point buy Sword & Board Fighter build (using material from core rulebooks only and no Archetypes) with appropriate WBL (16k, I think) and I'll post my 6th level Elven Swashbuckler.
If you want to discuss higher level builds after that, I'll gladly throw together an 11th level Swashbuckler for comparison.
Edit: Nevermind, seems Knick beat you to it.
1. I was asking you for clarification. You made a statement saying that the swashbuckler was "solidly ahead" of the sword and board fighter (a mid to late level build). I wanted to know why exactly, he was solidly ahead.
2. You want a comparison, lets make a comparison. Firstly, at level 6, then at a level where the Sword and Board fighter really shines (though they shine earlier with archtypes, it is very fair to disinclude these since the swash doesn't have any)
So, here is MY SnB fighter:
** spoiler omitted **...
I think, it looks like your figthers both are a bit low in the AC department to be relevant for the discussion MechE is trying to have with you.
I think, it looks like your figthers both are a bit low in the AC department to be relevant for the discussion MechE is trying to have with you.
I think they're starting to catch onto this. Sure, both of those fighters have DPR that is about 15% higher, but their AC are 4 and 5 points lower for that DPR.
My point is this - when you compare the Swashbuckler to the closest core rulebooks only build, it has some advantages and does not pay a huge price for them. It's not "head & shoulders above the rest" - I'm not trying to say that. (I may have used stronger words earlier in an attempt to make a point - not sure and don't want to check 1,400 post, lol.) It is comparable, power wise, and in my play testing has successfully served as a primary front line tank for a party of 4 as well as serving the role of party face with a great repertoire of skills and great flavor.
Also, the Swashbuckler still has the Panache abilities which have not even entered the conversation (besides Precise Strike) though they could all use a bit of work still as Parry is amazing, thematically, but very hard to make useful in actual play.
Why would you dip dervish of dawn when you could just stay in it? Way more versatile dextrous fighter character...
Dervish of Dawn is not from the Core rulebooks line of books from Paizo. We've been asked to compare the Playtest classes to those from the Core rulebooks line. Also, not all groups use every setting book and thus the new Advanced Class Guide classes are much more likely to see table time in some groups.
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How about just buying some extra armor proficiency to up the defenses of the swashbuckler (or dip into, say, paladin). There are exactly 2 abilities the swashbuckler loses by wearing more than light armor - Opportune parry (questionable) and Nimble (very good at higher levels, not so good at low levels). This is a workaround for strengthbucklers which makes the strength build even more attractive.
I'm not worried about AC, though. AC is pretty much the only thing Swashbucklers have going for them right now.
Is there any thing that will make really high dex SWs keep the dex over +8 when wering armor? Or do we shift to bracers of Armor when we hit +9?
I'm not worried about AC, though. AC is pretty much the only thing Swashbucklers have going for them right now.They're doing just fine on damage too, actually. It's saves and too many class features that don't play well with others that are the problems.
I agree with this statement. The saves are currently their biggest liability. As for the class features that don't play well, I just think they need a bit of refinement and I'm fairly sure they will get it. The saves, however, I'm a bit worried that those may not get a change...
Edit
Is there any thing that will make really high dex SWs keep the dex over +8 when wering armor? Or do we shift to bracers of Armor when we hit +9?
I was wondering about this too... I think we'll have to switch to Bracers of Armor at a certain point, which will cause the Swashbuckler's AC to dip for a few levels when we can't afford +8 bracers and then take a big jump at the end game stages when we can get them. Alternatively, one could focus on Dex to a lesser extent (a starting score of an 17 or 18 after racial modifiers would still give them solid AC) and not dump Int so hard, or put Str, Con, or Cha a few points higher.
Dervish of Dawn is not from the Core rulebooks line of books from Paizo. We've been asked to compare the Playtest classes to those from the Core rulebooks line. Also, not all groups use every setting book and thus the new Advanced Class Guide classes are much more likely to see table time in some groups.
Wizards of the Coast used to write 3.5 sourcebooks under the assumption that material from the sourcebooks would only be combined with Core, and not with each other.
We all know how well *that* turned out.
Dervish of Dawn is not from the Core rulebooks line of books from Paizo. We've been asked to compare the Playtest classes to those from the Core rulebooks line. Also, not all groups use every setting book and thus the new Advanced Class Guide classes are much more likely to see table time in some groups.If people are starting to think they can get a better dex based fighter by playing a bard, and have more skills and spells in addition, then there is something seriously wrong with one of them. Core or not, they're both published by Paizo.
People think all sort of things.;)
Make a few builds on Different levels and see. I cant promised anything but my gold is on the SW. The bard may be superior on level 1 and 2 and i agree that is a problem.
Dervish of Dawn is not from the Core rulebooks line of books from Paizo. We've been asked to compare the Playtest classes to those from the Core rulebooks line. Also, not all groups use every setting book and thus the new Advanced Class Guide classes are much more likely to see table time in some groups.If people are starting to think they can get a better dex based fighter by playing a bard, and have more skills and spells in addition, then there is something seriously wrong with one of them. Core or not, they're both published by Paizo.People think all sort of things.;)
Make a few builds o. Different levels and see. I cant promised anything but my gold is on the SW.
The core rulebooks are supposed to be the baseline for power. As I understand it, the settings books do not undergo nearly as much scrutiny. This is the reason that the designers are strongly against dexterity to damage mechanics, but they managed to sneak into the game in the form of Agile Weapons (from the Pathfinder Society field guide) and Dervish Dance (from Inner Sea Magic), both of which are settings books.
The Dawnflower Dervish archetype also came from Inner Sea Magic and therefore did not receive the same amount of scrutiny (minimal, if any play testing, etc.). This is the reason that many of the optimizer options are found in these books, because they did not receive the same amount of scrutiny. And hence if you compare the playtest classes from the Advanced Class Guide to options outside of the Core rulebook line, you will probably be disappointed.
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A 10th level Dawnflower dervish can't come close to keeping up with the swashbuckler's DPR at the same level. The problem is that there will be a lot of people who will go dervish 1/swashbuckler X to get the free Dervish Dance feat (and it's not like battle dance is a terrible thing to have access to, nor the bard list via wands and the like), and *that* is kind of an issue. It will cost them in AC - DD doesn't let you use a buckler - but that's really the only drawback, and the DPR increase is more than 12 points higher, at least on rounds when battle dance is in play.
A 10th level Dawnflower dervish can't come close to keeping up with the swashbuckler's DPR at the same level. The problem is that there will be a lot of people who will go dervish 1/swashbuckler X to get the free Dervish Dance feat (and it's not like battle dance is a terrible thing to have access to, nor the bard list via wands and the like), and *that* is kind of an issue. It will cost them in AC - DD doesn't let you use a buckler - but that's really the only drawback.
This is the reason for our house rule, which is actually less of a house rule and more of a "these are the source materials we feel fit the game that we want to play".
As I stated earlier I think Parry/Riposte should be changed to Spend 1 panache to parry an opponents attack and if you beat his roll by 5 or more his attack provokes and AoO from you. The -4 for creatures larger than you needs to go. It completely stop any Small characters from doing it. When would the ever not have that penalty?
The -4 penalty per size increment is rough - I agree. Maybe it could be reduced to -2 instead of -4?
The core rulebooks are supposed to be the baseline for power. As I understand it, the settings books do not undergo nearly as much scrutiny. This is the reason that the designers are strongly against dexterity to damage mechanics, but they managed to sneak into the game in the form of Agile Weapons (from the Pathfinder Society field guide) and Dervish Dance (from Inner Sea Magic), both of which are settings books.
The Dawnflower Dervish archetype also came from Inner Sea Magic and therefore did not receive the same amount of scrutiny (minimal, if any play testing, etc.). This is the reason that many of the optimizer options are found in these books, because they did not receive the same amount of scrutiny. And hence if you compare the playtest classes from the Advanced Class Guide to options outside of the Core rulebook line, you will probably be disappointed.
The most imbalanced options, now and always, are in the core books. Paragon Surge? Advanced Race Guide. Synthesist Summoner? Ultimate Magic. Don't even get me *started* on the spells in the core rulebook... Dex to Damage options don't even come close.
The most imbalanced options, now and always, are in the core books. Paragon Surge? Advanced Race Guide. Synthesist Summoner? Ultimate Magic. Don't even get me *started* on the spells in the core rulebook... Dex to Damage options don't even come close.The core rulebooks are supposed to be the baseline for power. As I understand it, the settings books do not undergo nearly as much scrutiny. This is the reason that the designers are strongly against dexterity to damage mechanics, but they managed to sneak into the game in the form of Agile Weapons (from the Pathfinder Society field guide) and Dervish Dance (from Inner Sea Magic), both of which are settings books.
The Dawnflower Dervish archetype also came from Inner Sea Magic and therefore did not receive the same amount of scrutiny (minimal, if any play testing, etc.). This is the reason that many of the optimizer options are found in these books, because they did not receive the same amount of scrutiny. And hence if you compare the playtest classes from the Advanced Class Guide to options outside of the Core rulebook line, you will probably be disappointed.
That those things exist is another conversation for another thread.
This is the reason for our house rule, which is actually less of a house rule and more of a "these are the source materials we feel fit the game that we want to play".My group houseruled it as well, but by allowing the feat to be used with the rapier and other 1d6 or lower finesse weapons, largely because the thought of the rapier being perhaps the worst dueling weapon option available broke our brains.
Either way, the Dawnflower Dervish archetype and the Dervish Dance feat are both in the game, and can't be handwaved away from a playtest by houserules.
We're being asked to compare these play test classes to the core rulebook line of classes. Doing anything else is doing something other than what the designers have specifically asked us to do as part of this play test.