Agreed. I've already mentioned that it should be +1 damage every 2 SB levels, but that this bonus damage will multiply on a crit (just like every other flat damage bonus in the game, including skill-based ones like specialisation and weapon training).The thing is that +1 damage per level more than makes up for the 1.5 Str and 3:1 Power Attack (3:1 Power Attack gives an advantage at levels 1, 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20, so you would need to have a build that ends at 66 Strength for 1.5x Strength to counter the remaining bonus).Weak old men can accidentally kill with a rapier. This is because it doesn't take much strength or mass to force such a small point into flesh. The precision of your attack becomes the important factor.
The more I consider it, the more I think that Dex (instead of Str) to damage is more appropriate for fluff, and crunch-wise the lack of it means that all SBs will either be Str-based or use Dervish Dance, to the severe detriment of the class.
For designers who are concerned that his makes Dex too good, consider that it won't get 1.5 when used two-handed, nor benefit from 3:1 on Power Attack. Dex to damage will not make SBs more powerful than Str-based melee characters.
I'd keep the +1 every level over getting DEX damage or multiplying it on a critical hit at a rate of +1 per 2 levels.
Math...Dex will top out at +6 with 22 DEX, which is achievable on a normal build by level 12. At that level you would have +12 on damage on every hit on any target that can be hit with Sneak Attack (most).
For the crits with bonus at half, at that same level(12), I would have a +6 on damage with a chance to get +12 on every three hits. So for three hits with one critical, +24 damage total, while with normal progression, 3 hits would be +36.
Just my two cents...
EDIT: Fixed Math
The thing is, Malachi and I are each intending to put in small changes to make the damage be less, given that right now damage outpaces Fighter. The doubling on the crit isn't the main point for me (it may be for Malachi, unsure).
|
The thing is, Malachi and I are each intending to put in small changes to make the damage be less, given that right now damage outpaces Fighter. The doubling on the crit isn't the main point for me (it may be for Malachi, unsure).
Fighter gets better armor and has a wider variety of weapons with which to cause this damage. I see no problem with this.
Fighter gets better armor and has a wider variety of weapons with which to cause this damage. I see no problem with this.
The thing is, Malachi and I are each intending to put in small changes to make the damage be less, given that right now damage outpaces Fighter. The doubling on the crit isn't the main point for me (it may be for Malachi, unsure).
The two-hander fighter will generally not have much better AC than the Strength-based Swashbuckler due to the Str Swashbuckler getting to use a buckler and adding Nimble (and the Dex Swash is way higher than the Fighter). Choosing the best dpr weapon (falchion) for a two-hander does not make up for the swash's advantage.
... Perhaps panache should be gained at a higher rate for higher crit weapons? x2 gives you 1 point, x3 gives you 2 points, x4 gives you 3? ...
I don't know how well that would work in practice, but I think it's a brilliant suggestion / mechanic to work with.
having a wider variety of weapons to cause damage means nothing if those weapons are inferior at causing damage.
Just a point, y'know. Just like having access to ten thousand spells is nice, but since you only get 20 at a time, you always end up choosing the 'best' ones. The others? They just don't count unless they are relevant in downtime.
==Aelryinth
My thoughts on the swashbuckler:
Hello this class brough me out of lurking to discuss it's pluses and minuses.
Pros: I like the idea of a lightly armored warrior wreking havoc on the battle field and this is a very good start for that.
A good skill selection,hp and BAB make for a strong comabtatant. I like the deeds and panache system(with some issues. see cons) it adds a dynamic flow to combat that adds zest. The swashbuckler finesse and weapon training are and excellent option with some flaws(again see cons).
Nimble is a lovely class feature that is nescessary for a class like this.
For the pros it is a very solid base which I will enjoy playing in an upcoming SnS game.
Now the cons
Cons: Only reflex as good save. That is harsh for a combatant class. The two classes that make this hybrid up have between then fort (twice) and reflexes(once). I would say that fort and ref should both be good saves.
Next con Evasive. This deed is excellent but it comes too late and is jammed together. To be fair it does arrive before the gunslinger evasive but perhaps it should be broken up. Set the uncanny dodge pieces as deeds at 3rd(uncanny dodge) and 7th(improved uncanny dodge).
You can the set the evasion/ improved evasion as at 7th/11th for a nicer balance of when options come into play.Of course keep the same restriction on panache needed for their function. That works fine.
Weapon group. Ther current weapon group for the class is flawed. Other posters have noted this and I concur. Add some of the classic dueling weapons. I agree a duelist weapon group would be lovely. I want to make my saber duelist...with out having to run to dervish dance to make it happen.Possible weapons for the group:pistols,scimitar/saber,other one handed blades. But that has been expanded on by others
Precise strike. I was glad to read that the dross of 3.5 is to be removed by one of the dev's and that I can run a buckler with it as well. I would like precise strike to be limited to the duelist weapons group.
Deeds. Opportune parry/Riposte: I can not agree enough with the other posters that it should cost an AoO to parry as long as you have 1 panache and cost 1 panache to attemtpt your Riposte. To me that seems to flow better. Also parry after the attack is sucessful. This does fly in the face of the duelist prestige class but such is life. I feel it would flow better and unlike the prestige class the swashbuckler can't parry for an ally. Which they should get post haste.
All in all I like the class. Perhaps a small side bar inicating which grit feats can be substituted for panche would be nice. I am looking forward to this book.
The thing is, Malachi and I are each intending to put in small changes to make the damage be less, given that right now damage outpaces Fighter. The doubling on the crit isn't the main point for me (it may be for Malachi, unsure).You seem to forget that sally A) still won't be competitive when she is fighting stuff immune to sneak attacks B) doesn't regain panache for every crit like you seem to assume. It is very likely that mob type encounters won't give her any panache and that she has to crit/drop the boss to regain it... encounter design can leave her far behind falchion fred who crits all day no matter what he faces. Besides she was behind at level ten.
A) No, the damage now applies to all foes.
B) You mean if the enemies are below half her level? That's a very unusual fight though, and she'll probably one-shot those enemies without even spending the point anyway. And she wasn't behind at level 10 unless she didn't get any Precise Strike doubling. As it turned out, in playtest she got even more Precise Strike doubling than I anticipated. She easily used it every round of every fight.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
A) No, the damage now applies to all foes.
Wait, all foes? I thought it was just being brought in line with other precision damage (such as sneak attack) instead of only working on living creatures with discernable anatomies. Did I miss something?
(Relatedly, I wonder when the OPs on these threads will get updated...)
A) No, the damage now applies to all foes.Wait, all foes? I thought it was just being brought in line with other precision damage (such as sneak attack) instead of only working on living creatures with discernable anatomies. Did I miss something?
(Relatedly, I wonder when the OPs on these threads will get updated...)
SRM said all foes. He might have meant not on oozes and such though.
EDIT: He said "the discernible anatomy line is going to be removed, for sure". Most of the creatures that are immune to sneak are immune due to no discernible anatomy. It's not 100% though.
|
The thing is, Malachi and I are each intending to put in small changes to make the damage be less, given that right now damage outpaces Fighter. The doubling on the crit isn't the main point for me (it may be for Malachi, unsure).
The doubling of the flat bonus is important to me, and lowering the level-based bonus damage compensates.
But the Dex to damage (instead of Str) is important because, without it, then all SBs will either be Str based or use Dervish Dance, and if that's the case then the class will have failed to produce the swashbucklers of our shared experience.
What's the point of attempting to produce a class to let rapier-wielding Dex-based fighters shine, if every single SB in play is Str-based and uses a trident or morning star, or who uses a scimitar and Dervish Dance? Dex to damage is achievable via Dervish Dance, so unless it's also achievable with a rapier then no-one will choose the rapier!
Let's face it, an ability score of 18 at 1st level is easily achievable with a racial bonus. If you're a Str-based melee, then a 2H weapon gives you +6 from your ability score, rising to +9 with the Power Attack feat which you automatically qualify for. Why be afraid of Dex to damage? The same score of 18 would only give +4 damage (you can't use an off-hand weapon to get the extra +2 like you can with Str and TWF), and that rises to only +6 with Power Attack, a feat which you probably won't have without a Str of 13, which would lower Dex or Cha.
There really is nothing to be afraid of by letting Dex add to damage instead of Str. It could be worded in such a way to only apply to the swashbuckler weapons group, or only to certain chosen weapons.
If you don't allow Dex to damage, then the only swashbucklers we'll see will be wielding scimitars or tridents or spears or morning stars. Rapiers won't get a look in.
The thing is, Malachi and I are each intending to put in small changes to make the damage be less, given that right now damage outpaces Fighter. The doubling on the crit isn't the main point for me (it may be for Malachi, unsure).The doubling of the flat bonus is important to me, and lowering the level-based bonus damage compensates.
But the Dex to damage (instead of Str) is important because, without it, then all SBs will either be Str based or use Dervish Dance, and if that's the case then the class will have failed to produce the swashbucklers of our shared experience.
What's the point of attempting to produce a class to let rapier-wielding Dex-based fighters shine, if every single SB in play is Str-based and uses a trident or morning star, or who uses a scimitar and Dervish Dance? Dex to damage is achievable via Dervish Dance, so unless it's also achievable with a rapier then no-one will choose the rapier!
Let's face it, an ability score of 18 at 1st level is easily achievable with a racial bonus. If you're a Str-based melee, then a 2H weapon gives you +6 from your ability score, rising to +9 with the Power Attack feat which you automatically qualify for. Why be afraid of Dex to damage? The same score of 18 would only give +4 damage (you can't use an off-hand weapon to get the extra +2 like you can with Str and TWF), and that rises to only +6 with Power Attack, a feat which you probably won't have without a Str of 13, which would lower Dex or Cha.
There really is nothing to be afraid of by letting Dex add to damage instead of Str. It could be worded in such a way to only apply to the swashbuckler weapons group, or only to certain chosen weapons.
If you don't allow Dex to damage, then the only swashbucklers we'll see will be wielding scimitars or tridents or spears or morning stars. Rapiers won't get a look in.
Well, as said, giving neither Strength nor Dex to damage fixes that problem too.
|
|
A) No, the damage now applies to all foes.Wait, all foes? I thought it was just being brought in line with other precision damage (such as sneak attack) instead of only working on living creatures with discernable anatomies. Did I miss something?
(Relatedly, I wonder when the OPs on these threads will get updated...)
SRM said all foes. He might have meant not on oozes and such though.
EDIT: He said "the discernible anatomy line is going to be removed, for sure". Most of the creatures that are immune to sneak are immune due to no discernible anatomy. It's not 100% though.
My belief is that it will be changed to be in line with sneak attacks: those targets immune to sneak attack will be immune to the SB's level-based precision damage.
Going Dervish costs her two feats, not one. As things stand currently, Weapon Finesse is not granted by the class - she has to buy it separately to take advantage of any of the feats that use it as a prereq, including DD. Crit Focus is probably the next softest feat to drop, but it's about -2 DPR...
EDIT: sidebar to the above, I forgot to include Critical Focus when I ran the DPR numbers before. Fred is at 59.25, and Sally with it is at 58.94, 56.91 without it. I also slightly screwed up the math on the panache point to double precise strike - it actually adds ~3.31 DPR. Which means that Dervish Sally has almost exactly the same DPR burning panache but losing Crit Focus that Fred does as he stands. (She does have other benefits, of course, as previous established.)
It seems freds crits are completly evening out the advantage. Anyway they are really close. Your playtest doesn't take into consideration that while sally is spending her primary class feature to keep up in damage fred is taking advantage of additional feats ... all the time.
What about tweaking the hd to something differant then half her level? the idea is that sally can be awesome when it counts and does good otherwise. Maybe the problem is that the actual "limited ressource" isn't limited at all in actual play and not that precise strike is dealing to much dmg. Another easier fix would be to just drop the precise strike boost or make it count twice as much.
Correct, Shisumo's math was that Fred has a slight edge (.31) due to crits if Sally never uses panache on Precise Strike. Playtest revealed that she could easily spend it every round. You're right that changing the panache flow could be another way to alter things, but that would also influence the balance of all the other deeds too.
|
|
I'm going to be playtesting the Swashbuckler in Skull & Shackles today (converting my 1st level halfling gunslinger (buccaneer) to Swashbuckler).
It's a little painful knowing what I'll miss out on this way, but I think the character will end up more combat effective.
I'll post my results later today.
A couple of questions:
What is swift about swift feint? It's a standard action (so not swifter than Improved Feint).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Something else I've noticed is that as long as they're required to keep a hand free, they will be taking the Crane Style feat line — Even with the hefty five-feat investment. They'll never use Improved Unarmed Strike, but they'll pay it anyways. It brings their AC closer into line with Fighters, and Crane Wing/Riposte totally shows up Opportune Parry/Riposte.
Edit: "Shows up" is an understatement, "blows clear out of the water" would be nearer the mark.
- No Panache cost. Though Crane Wing can only deflect one attack per round, for most of a Swashbuckler's career, he won't have enough Panache to Parry much more than one attack per round, let alone Riposte. Not if he wants to be doing other things with it.
- The combo only costs one Attack of Opportunity, to Riposte.
- Crane wing just plain works. No opposed roll business, no penalty against larger creatures. They attack and you deflect, period. With Crane Riposte you can spend one attack of opportunity to counterattack.
- Crane Wing activates on the first incoming [u]successful[/u] attack each round. Opportune Parry, on top of being overcosted, has the onerous requirement that you activate it before the attacker even makes his attack roll.
So on a regular basis, you'll find yourself using Opportune Parry and paying its cost in order to block attacks that wouldn't have hit you anyways.
Now, a popular Duelist build posted on this site includes Master of Many Styles Monk dips at levels 3 and 5, to help you qualify for these style feats, and also to allow you to use both Crane Style and Snake Style — The latter allows you to deal Piercing damage with your unarmed strikes. Remember, Monks can use Unarmed Strike with any part of their body (not necessarily their hands), and they can count as either manufactured or natural weapons. So, all your Light Piercing Weapon class features work on your Unarmed Strikes now. Like Precise Strike, and your Weapon Training with built-in Improved Critical.
If you ask your Wizard really nicely, he might craft you a +0 Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, and give you Greater Magic Weapon.
The Swashbuckler, as it exists right now, can't really do the dips until 7 and 9. It takes longer to get going than the Duelist did, without the Level 1 and 2 Fighter bonus feats, but you can have all your essential feats in good time, and at least you're still finished in time to take Signature Deed at level 11. If Paizo gives Weapon Finesse as the bonus feat at level 1, you can move your Monk levels back to 5 and 7 (from 7 and 9), take Power Attack at level 1, and your Level 8 Swashbuckler feat is free to use on something else.
Human: Combat Reflexes (You're feat-starved whether you do this or not, so you will be a Human)
Level 1: Weapon Finesse (Hold your nose and burn your feat, you need Dervish Dance)
Level 3: Dervish Dance
Swashbuckler 4: Power Attack
Level 5: Dodge
Level 7: Snake Style
Monk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, and Snake Fang (MoMS lets you skip the underwhelming Snake Sidewind)
Level 9: Crane Style
Monk 2: Crane Wing
Swashbuckler 8: Crane Riposte
The pros definitely outweigh the cons.
- You gave up 1 BAB, but with full BAB and Weapon Training (which will even apply to your Unarmed Strikes) you can afford it.
- You lose a couple of damage from your Precise Strike, which will be made up for by the extra attacks (which, remember, you can apply Precise Strike to!)
- You gain a net +2 to all saves
- You delay your class features by 2 levels, but really, what were you looking forward to? Evasive is the only standout. You're only missing out on Weapon Mastery in those rare games that go all the way up to level 20 but not beyond it.
Your defensive combat routine will look something like this:
- Fight defensively at all times for a -1 Attack penalty and +4 AC bonus.
- Enemy attacks you. You deflect with Crane Wing. You use Crane Riposte to make an attack of opportunity against the offender.
- You get attacked again, you use your Opportune Parry to make your opponent miss. Note that this counts as a miss this time, not a deflection.
- Instead of spending another Panache point on Riposte, counter with Snake Fang instead.
- If you can't/won't use Opportune Parry, and your attacker just plain misses, you can use your Snake Fang counter anyway. You can't do that with Riposte.
- If you weren't planning on using that Swift Action, hit him again with another Precision Unarmed Strike courtesy of Snake Fang, as an Immediate Action. You were just going to use that Swift Action to get Precise Strike damage again anyways, right?
Hey, now you can use Signature Deed on Opportune Parry instead of Precise Strike. You couldn't even begin to take Two Weapon Fighting until Level 13 (or 10, if you can get Weapon Finesse as the feat), but by that point it's just gravy. I'm out of time for right now, but it'd be wonderful if someone could run the damage numbers on this guy.
Now that I think about it, why use a sword at all? With an Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Agile property (available from fine Wizards near you), you add Dex to damage on your unarmed strikes without having to take Dervish Dance. And now you can kick your Strength back to 10 and take Pirahna Strike instead of Power Attack. I haven't really read up on the Brawler at all, but I'd love to know how these builds stack up. Yes you lose Panache generation, but do you even really need it anymore? You could even dump Charisma, let Crane Style do your parrying and riposting, and roll around with the Minimum One Panache at all times.
So where am I going with all of this? I implore Paizo to bake the advantages of Crane Style into the Swashbuckler class, and include the caveat that they cannot use Monastic style feats in combination with it.
Edit:
You can't use a buckler with this, but it turns out you didn't even need it. Your AC bonus for fighting defensively with Crane Style will be better than your AC bonus with a Buckler, unless your buckler has a +4 or better enhancement. The dodge bonus from Crane Style applies to your Touch AC (very important), whereas the shield bonus from the buckler applies to your flat-footed AC (and once you get Evasive, you are never flat-footed).
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
***Official Update***
The following changes has been made to the swashbuckler. They are also now listed in the first post of this thread.
• Change "daring-do" to "derring-do". Delete the last sentence of the ability. It can be reduced by the Signature Deed feat. For this playtest, treat swashbuckler levels as gunslinger levels for grit feats. Treat panache as grit for those feats.
• In the Precise Strike deed, change the second sentence to "To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler." Delete the third sentence. Only creatures immune to sneak attacks are immune to precise strike. In the second paragraph, replace the first sentence with the following: "As a swift action, a swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to double her precise strike's damage bonus on the next attack". Add the following to the end of the paragraph: The cost of this deed cannot be reduced by the Signature Deed feat, or any other ability that reduces the amount of panache this deed costs".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes a change to the opportune parry/riposte deeds is needed. And also a rework of the swashbuckler weapons
|
|
***Official Update***
The following changes has been made to the swashbuckler. They are also now listed in the first post of this thread.
• Change "daring-do" to "derring-do". Delete the last sentence of the ability. It can be reduced by the Signature Deed feat. For this playtest, treat swashbuckler levels as gunslinger levels for grit feats. Treat panache as grit for those feats.
• In the Precise Strike deed, change the second sentence to "To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler." Delete the third sentence. Only creatures immune to sneak attacks are immune to precise strike. In the second paragraph, replace the first sentence with the following: "As a swift action, a swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to double her precise strike's damage bonus on the next attack". Add the following to the end of the paragraph: The cost of this deed cannot be reduced by the Signature Deed feat, or any other ability that reduces the amount of panache this deed costs".
All are excellent changes. Thankyou. : )
Question: exactly why is it that the designers feel that multiplying this extra damage on a crit is a bad thing for the game?
Okay. Maybe it's the fact I'm unfamiliar with the Gunslinger (my groups don't meet that often and don't often use odd classes like it) and maybe it's because I put in an 8-hour day... but the Deeds section of the Swashbuckler is confusing me.
From the looks of the chart, the Swashbuckler gets to select a new Deed at levels 1, 3, and every 4 levels after that, meaning that at level 19 they would have a total of six Deeds from among the selection of Deeds. Is this correct?
Or is it that the Swashbuckler gains a new tier of Deeds, all of which he can use, at those specific levels?
Question: exactly why is it that the designers feel that multiplying this extra damage on a crit is a bad thing for the game?
We don't do that with precession damage or extra damage, and the fact that it scales, and that you can double it yourself means it doesn't need to be doubled, tripled, or quadrupled again.
Okay. Maybe it's the fact I'm unfamiliar with the Gunslinger (my groups don't meet that often and don't often use odd classes like it) and maybe it's because I put in an 8-hour day... but the Deeds section of the Swashbuckler is confusing me.
From the looks of the chart, the Swashbuckler gets to select a new Deed at levels 1, 3, and every 4 levels after that, meaning that at level 19 they would have a total of six Deeds from among the selection of Deeds. Is this correct?
Or is it that the Swashbuckler gains a new tier of Deeds, all of which he can use, at those specific levels?
You can use all the deeds you gain. You don't select deeds. Selection comes with spending panache.
Okay, thank you. You might mention that in the book for all of us work-fried brain-dead gamers and GMs in the future. ;)
That'll make this Swashbuckler build a bit more interesting against the PCs....
|
|
The doubling of the flat bonus is important to me, and lowering the level-based bonus damage compensates.
Lowering the level-based bonus damage would hurt the feelings of growth granted by the current itteration. Right now you effectively get something cool at every level, up to +2 damage per level with panache !
But the Dex to damage (instead of Str) is important because, without it, then all SBs will either be Str based or use Dervish Dance, and if that's the case then the class will have failed to produce the swashbucklers of our shared experience.
Unless again you design the class so Precise Strike does not stack with Dex/Str bonuses to damage. If you give the swashbuckler enough damage so that he doesn't NEED to become Str-based or pick Dervish Dance just to stay relevant, you resolve the balance and pigeon-holing issues with a single stone. Precise Strike is too bold, fun and cool in execution that it would be a shame to nerf by both granting yet another "add X ability to damage" and reducing the versatility of the class.
I'll state again that I'm a big fan of the method suggested earlier : the swashbuckler would get all its damage out of his class levels, weapon enhancements, weapon training and eventual weapon specialization feats.
Dex would only add to AC/Ref/Skills/Attack Rolls, much like how it works with all firearms by simply determining if you hit and nothing more. It's a great and balanced way way to stay in line with the gunslinger's essence by making melee feel like firearms. A swashbuckler's effective damage would come out of his own awesomeness and panache, not from stat bonuses which can be abused or restrict builds too much.
With this mechanic, you could still get 13 Str for Power Attack if you want a damage boost, which would come at the cost of investing some points into this stat ; which would thus make you slightly more MAD.
Or you could still pick Dervish Dance... even if it doesn't stack, the damage bonus would work against all enemies, and be fully multiplied on a crit (which means an easily reachable +5 Dex bonus would become +10 damage on a crit, granting you better average damage from 4th to 10th level against more types of enemies in comparison to using Precise Strike).
=> Thus this mechanic would balance both Str and Dex builds.
A Dex build will have better AC and Parry capabilities ; a Str build will have more damage and ability to move around while adventuring and suffer much less against Str damage or damage debuffs.
Has the DPR math showed how "add level to damage as precision damage, spend 1 panache to add your level again but as a bonus that can be multiplied on a crit" fares against an optimized fighter ?
Also, I love the idea of recovering more panache for lower crit-range, higher crit-modifier weapons !
The issue still remains for 19-20x2 weapons though, redheads stepchilds in your choice of weapons... maybe Paizo may apply both the "all 18-20/19-20 weapons become 18-20" and the "all 20x3/20x4 grant more panache on a crit" ?
|
|
Also : using the "level to damage not stacking with Dex/Str modifier" suggestion, a Dervish Dancing swashbuckler with a +6 Dex modifier would deal better damage on average until 12th level...
... which is also the level where the swashbuckler receives a bonus feat AND may retrain one of his other feats, like Dervish Dance. This number rises to 14th level with +7, or 16th with +8 modifier, rewarding highly Dextrous character builds.
So Dervish Dance would effectively become a choice that will be useful without being a no-brainer prerequisite for all swashbucklers, and can be changed for another feat when its utility is no longer assured - useful for the utter majority of campaigns played, since the part of 12-20 levels campaigns is significantly lower than those played between 1-12. Fun thing is that it would also balance Dervish Dancing against other weapon choices - Dervish Dance would be the way to go for the ability to stay efficient and deadly all the time and allowing you to burn all your panache quickly ; Str-based builds would be a balance between damage and AC at the cost of touch AC/overall MADness ; Dex-based builds would be more tactical and require to manage efficiently your Panache, but would come with great AC, chances to hit, evasion and cool average damage.
The doubling of the flat bonus is important to me, and lowering the level-based bonus damage compensates.Lowering the level-based bonus damage would hurt the feelings of growth granted by the current itteration. Right now you effectively get something cool at every level, up to +2 damage per level with panache !
But the Dex to damage (instead of Str) is important because, without it, then all SBs will either be Str based or use Dervish Dance, and if that's the case then the class will have failed to produce the swashbucklers of our shared experience.Unless again you design the class so Precise Strike does not stack with Dex/Str bonuses to damage. If you give the swashbuckler enough damage so that he doesn't NEED to become Str-based or pick Dervish Dance just to stay relevant, you resolve the balance and pigeon-holing issues with a single stone. Precise Strike is too bold, fun and cool in execution that it would be a shame to nerf by both granting yet another "add X ability to damage" and reducing the versatility of the class.
I'll state again that I'm a big fan of the method suggested earlier : the swashbuckler would get all its damage out of his class levels, weapon enhancements, weapon training and eventual weapon specialization feats.
Dex would only add to AC/Ref/Skills/Attack Rolls, much like how it works with all firearms by simply determining if you hit and nothing more. It's a great and balanced way way to stay in line with the gunslinger's essence by making melee feel like firearms. A swashbuckler's effective damage would come out of his own awesomeness and panache, not from stat bonuses which can be abused or restrict builds too much.
With this mechanic, you could still get 13 Str for Power Attack if you want a damage boost, which would come at the cost of investing some points into this stat ; which would thus make you slightly more MAD.
Or you could still pick Dervish Dance... even if it doesn't stack, the damage bonus...
Obviously I agree 100% with the first part because I was the poster that come up with the idea of having the precise strike replace strength (or dexterity with dervish dance).
I am not so sure about the critical multiplier idea. I could get behind giving x3 and x4 bonus 1 and 2 panache but I do not think longsword or shortsword should just get free 18-20x2 critical.
The class needs to open up and allow scimitar and cutlass. If so, I am fine with rapier, scimitar, and cutlass being the 3 best weapons because those are the weapons I most associate with swashbuckler anyway.
Buffing the weapons with larger multipliers definitely sounds fun and balanced but if a pick is the 4th best weapon option for swashbuckler it is a little weird so not sure.
The other issue with this idea is that moves panache away from being exactly grit to actually being slightly different because if gunslingers got 3 grit on each critical that would be ridiculous and they do not.
|
|
Obviously I agree 100% with the first part because I was the poster that come up with the idea of having the precise strike replace strength (or dexterity with dervish dance).
Beat you to it with my second post in this thread actually :p
I am not so sure about the critical multiplier idea. I could get behind giving x3 and x4 bonus 1 and 2 panache but I do not think longsword or shortsword should just get free 18-20x2 critical.
I just noticed this now, but if going the route we're pushing for, the longsword wouldn't even need this greater critical range.
It would be one the most balanced choices for a Power Attacking swashbuckler thanks to the ability to be wielded two-handed, the damage dice and 17-20 final critical modifier, improving the chances to recover grit with a killing blow, even if at the expense of reducing recober by critical hits.Come on Paizo, that's obviously the miraculous answer :o))
If you give the swashbuckler enough damage so that he doesn't NEED to become Str-based or pick Dervish Dance just to stay relevant, you resolve the balance and pigeon-holing issues with a single stone.
Not really, because there's no such thing as enough damage. There's damage and there's MORE DAKKA!
I just realized that I missed something huge about Opportune Parry vs. Crane Wing, which just blows Opportune Parry out of the water. This is important enough that I will edit it into my previous post.
Crane Wing doesn't activate on the first incoming attack each round. It activates on the first incoming successful attack on each around. That's huge compared to Opportune Parry, which on top of being overcosted has the onerous requirement that you activate it before the attacker even makes his attack roll.
So on a regular basis, you'll find yourself using Opportune Parry and paying its cost in order to block attacks that wouldn't have hit you anyways.
The thing is, Malachi and I are each intending to put in small changes to make the damage be less, given that right now damage outpaces Fighter. The doubling on the crit isn't the main point for me (it may be for Malachi, unsure).
Except she was just about keeping pace with a non-optimised fighter by adding attribute+precision damage.
If you try and balance it to do less than that, you're going to end up with another gimped class, which is what I suspect some people are pushing for, though I can't fathom why.Giving dex+precision isn't going to increase the damage over str+precision, and still isn't going to outdamage a well-built Two-Handed Fighter.
Also : using the "level to damage not stacking with Dex/Str modifier" suggestion, a Dervish Dancing swashbuckler with a +6 Dex modifier would deal better damage on average until 12th level...
... which is also the level where the swashbuckler receives a bonus feat AND may retrain one of his other feats, like Dervish Dance. This number rises to 14th level with +7, or 16th with +8 modifier, rewarding highly Dextrous character builds.
So Dervish Dance would effectively become a choice that will be useful without being a no-brainer prerequisite for all swashbucklers, and can be changed for another feat when its utility is no longer assured - useful for the utter majority of campaigns played, since the part of 12-20 levels campaigns is significantly lower than those played between 1-12. Fun thing is that it would also balance Dervish Dancing against other weapon choices - Dervish Dance would be the way to go for the ability to stay efficient and deadly all the time and allowing you to burn all your panache quickly ; Str-based builds would be a balance between damage and AC at the cost of touch AC/overall MADness ; Dex-based builds would be more tactical and require to manage efficiently your Panache, but would come with great AC, chances to hit, evasion and cool average damage.
I seriously don't understand the fear of Dex to damage. You are already being penalized for attacking with Dex.
I really don't want these to look like all the cookie cutter Magus put there minus the spells.
On parry/Riposte.
If these were combined, cost 1 panache, and use one roll (for both the parry and the attack) it would become faster as well as more powerful - and both things seem to be needed.
Obviously I agree 100% with the first part because I was the poster that come up with the idea of having the precise strike replace strength (or dexterity with dervish dance).Beat you to it with my second post in this thread actually :p
I am not so sure about the critical multiplier idea. I could get behind giving x3 and x4 bonus 1 and 2 panache but I do not think longsword or shortsword should just get free 18-20x2 critical.I just noticed this now, but if going the route we're pushing for, the longsword wouldn't even need this greater critical range.
It would be one the most balanced choices for a Power Attacking swashbuckler thanks to the ability to be wielded two-handed, the damage dice and 17-20 final critical modifier, improving the chances to recover grit with a killing blow, even if at the expense of reducing recober by critical hits.Come on Paizo, that's obviously the miraculous answer :o))
The scimitar can be wielded in two hands as well, and damage dice are irrelevant because the difference works out to exactly 1 damage.
Remember that Improved Critical doesn't add to your crit range, it doubles it. On a 19-20 weapon it increases your critical threat chance from 10% to 20%. But on an 18-20 weapon it increases your critical threat chance from 15% to 30%.
Even if you gain Panache based on your crit multiplier (x2=1, x3=2, x4=3):
- 20/x4 will be equivalent to 18-20/x2.
- 20/x3 will still be worthless.
- 19-20/x3 (the Falcata) would actually become the best option... if it did Piercing damage.
(Speaking purely in terms of Panache generation. This doesn't take into account that gaining 2-3 Panache with a crit might "overflow" your pool and thus be wasted.)
And never forget, this is a class for whom crits are fuel and whose gas tank is tiny.
For every class, beyond low levels, weapons soon devolve into "enhancement bonuses and crit ranges on a stick, that allow you to apply your damage bonus to things. Also adds +3.5 damage or whatever". Starting somewhere in the mid levels, the best possible weapon would have no damage die at all, and a 17-20/x2 base critical range.
That's just the way 3e is, it's far too late to change it now.
So yes, there will need to be class features that bulldoze every Swashbuckler weapon to 18-20/x2 critical, and then grant other abilities to keep the weapons distinct from each other. Otherwise, embrace the Scimitar for it is superior and inevitable.
Obviously I agree 100% with the first part because I was the poster that come up with the idea of having the precise strike replace strength (or dexterity with dervish dance).Beat you to it with my second post in this thread actually :p
I am not so sure about the critical multiplier idea. I could get behind giving x3 and x4 bonus 1 and 2 panache but I do not think longsword or shortsword should just get free 18-20x2 critical.I just noticed this now, but if going the route we're pushing for, the longsword wouldn't even need this greater critical range.
It would be one the most balanced choices for a Power Attacking swashbuckler thanks to the ability to be wielded two-handed, the damage dice and 17-20 final critical modifier, improving the chances to recover grit with a killing blow, even if at the expense of reducing recober by critical hits.Come on Paizo, that's obviously the miraculous answer :o))
Noooo I feel less special now!
I agree completely with your longsword point. It has its own niche especially if you are against something immune to precision damage and need the better power attack.
Obviously I agree 100% with the first part because I was the poster that come up with the idea of having the precise strike replace strength (or dexterity with dervish dance).Beat you to it with my second post in this thread actually :p
I am not so sure about the critical multiplier idea. I could get behind giving x3 and x4 bonus 1 and 2 panache but I do not think longsword or shortsword should just get free 18-20x2 critical.I just noticed this now, but if going the route we're pushing for, the longsword wouldn't even need this greater critical range.
It would be one the most balanced choices for a Power Attacking swashbuckler thanks to the ability to be wielded two-handed, the damage dice and 17-20 final critical modifier, improving the chances to recover grit with a killing blow, even if at the expense of reducing recober by critical hits.Come on Paizo, that's obviously the miraculous answer :o))
The scimitar can be wielded in two hands as well, and damage dice are irrelevant because the difference works out to exactly 1 damage.
Remember that Improved Critical doesn't add to your crit range, it doubles it. On a 19-20 weapon it increases your critical threat chance from 10% to 20%. But on an 18-20 weapon it increases your critical threat chance from 15% to 30%.
Even if you gain Panache based on your crit multiplier (x2=1, x3=2, x4=3):
- 20/x4 will be equivalent to 18-20/x2.
- 20/x3 will still be worthless.
- 19-20/x3 (the Falcata) would actually become the best option... if it did Piercing damage.(Speaking purely in terms of Panache generation. This doesn't take into account that gaining 2-3 Panache with a crit might "overflow" your pool and thus be wasted.)
And never forget, this is a class for whom crits are fuel and whose gas tank is tiny.
For every class, beyond low levels, weapons soon devolve into...
You make a valid point. Then allow cutlass and not scimitar. If you take dervish dance and we are using the precision damage not stacking then you deserve to be able to use the scimitar which can also be two handed.
|
|
The scimitar can be wielded in two hands as well, and damage dice are irrelevant because the difference works out to exactly 1 damage.
I know that. All the more reasons to limit the swashbuckler to piercing weapons PLUS thematic weapons (whip, net) and specific swords (considering the Dueling Sword can be wielded as a longsword without the exotic proficiency, let's hope you will be able to wield a longsword with the swashbuckler too).
But, and follow me here : NOT INCLUDING THE SCIMITAR.
A swashbuckler could effectively wield a scimitar to use his class abilities as soon as he got Dervish Dance, turning the slashing into piercing and thus into a fit weapon.
Why do this ? To broaden the usefulness of underused swords like the longsword and allow for a greater variety of weapons choice, something the magus lacks painfully because the scimitar is an obvious choice. Here, we have the opportunity to get a built-in safety mesure to mechanically make several builds viable and grant maximum versatility in character choices - a philosophy that made Paizo one of the leaders in the marketn and the most appreciated D&D ruleset.
You don't nerf the swashbuckler but actually expand the options depending on what character you want to achieve : the scimitar will still be used by Dervish Dancers anyways so it doesn't change anything for them. Longswords and Aldori Dueling swords become perfect fits for PAttackers. Scimitar will be the trademark of Dervish Dancers and may even be used to both DD and PA. Rapier will be the weapon of choice for pure swashbucklers who want to build differently, receive plenty of panache and perform tricks in combat. Lighter weapons like dagger and shortsword will be used for TWF.
The two-hander fighter will generally not have much better AC than the Strength-based Swashbuckler due to the Str Swashbuckler getting to use a buckler and adding Nimble (and the Dex Swash is way higher than the Fighter). Choosing the best dpr weapon (falchion) for a two-hander does not make up for the swash's advantage.Fighter gets better armor and has a wider variety of weapons with which to cause this damage. I see no problem with this.
The thing is, Malachi and I are each intending to put in small changes to make the damage be less, given that right now damage outpaces Fighter. The doubling on the crit isn't the main point for me (it may be for Malachi, unsure).
I'm a lot more concerned with how much a str based swashbuckler outperforms a dex based swashbuckler than with how they stack up next to a fighter. The advantage a fighter has over a swashbuckler shouldn't be a better damage output with their weapon of choice against 100% of all enemies. The advantage fighters have over every other full BAB class is their versatility.
If the swashbuckler averages a few more points of damage against, say, a stone giant, good for the swashbuckler. When the next thing around the corner is a pack of wyverns though, suddenly it's the fighter's time to pull that composite longbow out and school her in how to deal with targets at range. If you're fighting in a cramped area, the fighter can whip out a reach weapon. When there's an ooze to deal with, out comes the earthbreaker.
The swashbuckler can, in theory, carry around these backup weapons too, but she's not going to benefit from those secondary and tertiary weapon group bonuses, and loses out on some class features. She's not getting the same number of feats, so she's less likely to have found time to pay the ranged combat tax. A dex based swashbuckler like what I'm testing here can't really afford to carry these backup weapons, and one running off str is going to really suffer on the AC front.
Also, if it's specifically str swashbucklers you're worried about, I still think it's worth considering just taking them off the table with something like this:
Finesse Over Force (Ex): At 4th level, a swashbuckler's training leads them to focus less on raw power, and more on the absolute precision of their strikes. They no longer apply their strength bonus to damage with their attacks, but add their dexterity bonus to damage from all attacks made with a light or one-handed piercing weapon."
It's a bit of a kludge, but it would kill two birds with one stone.
You can still multiclass a little if you just want to play around with the early deeds and dance around a little with a proper powerhouse build, but anyone making a serious commitment to the class is now forced to use the sort of dex-based build the class is meant to support, and the rest of the class can be balanced around that without having to worry about exploitability. In the same stroke, it's going a long way towards making those dex builds actually viable. There's still some big hurtles for them, but that's the only one that can't be easily solved via some new, probably class-specific feats.
Excellent changes! I am excited that the Swashbuckler can now properly buckle his swash.
If only you could shield bash with one, but there are still some cool options that this opens up for the class that it didn't have, I think.
Derring-do still isn't ideal. I'm using a feat so I can NOT spend a Panache point to add 1d6 to my skill roll BEFORE i make the d20 roll. I don't think I should waste a feat to make a class ability useful. The deed should already be useful and the feat should reinforce that.
Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to spend my last point to preform a fantastic skill in a dire situation. It adds drama to the game! Instead, I'm spending a feat to get an average of +3 to a skill without wasting a panache point. I might as well spend that feat on Skill Focus.
Is it intended for the Swashbuckler to have the "Daring Act" optional rule for regaining panache, as the gunslinger may regain grit? I love that rule.
Derring-do still isn't ideal. I'm using a feat so I can NOT spend a Panache point to add 1d6 to my skill roll BEFORE i make the d20 roll. I don't think I should waste a feat to make a class ability useful. The deed should already be useful and the feat should reinforce that.
Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to spend my last point to preform a fantastic skill in a dire situation. It adds drama to the game! Instead, I'm spending a feat to get an average of +3 to a skill without wasting a panache point. I might as well spend that feat on Skill Focus.
Average is, in fact, +4.2. To 6 different skills. Now at this level, skill feats usually double. So for instance Alertness gives +4 to Perception and Sense Motive. Getting 4.2 to 6 different skills (and in a way that stacks with those other feats) is an excellent deal, assuming you weren't getting Signature Deed for anything else (Parry seems a solid choice).
Average is, in fact, +4.2. To 6 different skills. Now at this level, skill feats usually double. So for instance Alertness gives +4 to Perception and Sense Motive. Getting 4.2 to 6 different skills (and in a way that stacks with those other feats) is an excellent deal, assuming you weren't getting Signature Deed for anything else (Parry seems a solid choice).Derring-do still isn't ideal. I'm using a feat so I can NOT spend a Panache point to add 1d6 to my skill roll BEFORE i make the d20 roll. I don't think I should waste a feat to make a class ability useful. The deed should already be useful and the feat should reinforce that.
Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to spend my last point to preform a fantastic skill in a dire situation. It adds drama to the game! Instead, I'm spending a feat to get an average of +3 to a skill without wasting a panache point. I might as well spend that feat on Skill Focus.
But that still doesn't fix that Derring-do isn't awesome. I still have to use a feat to make it worthwhile, which I'd rather not do. The deed should already be playable. Or at least give me another deed that can enhance my non-combat abilities so he is a little bit more useful outside of combat.
By the time you can get signature deed, all these skills will be basically meaningless. Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Swim. I can see using Fly. Because that's what you'll be doing after lvl 11 a lot.
Totally agree
Because I have so much time on my hands, here is a pile of solutions for some of the problems brought up so far.
Problem
The Swashbuckler is MAD. They need Strength for Power Attack, because Piranha Strike only works with Light weapons. Dexterity and Charisma are their primary and secondary stat. Everybody needs Con. They need some Int to cover all their skills, and to pick up Combat Expertise if they want to use maneuvers. And they can't afford to dump Wisdom with a poor Will save.
Solution
- Allow the Swashbuckler (or everyone) to use Pirahna Strike with any weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse not just Light weapons.
- Allow the Swashbuckler to use Charisma in place of Intelligence to meet the requirements on his bonus feats.
- Increase their Skill Ranks to 6+Int per level.
- Give them a class feature that improves their Will saves, or possibly even replaces Wisdom with Charisma. See below for more on this point.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem
Swashbuckler Finesse doesn't provide the actual feat, so you can't use it as a prerequisite. It comes into play at level 2, so the Swashbuckler has to basically be carried through level 1.
Solution
- Give Weapon Finesse as a Bonus Feat at level 1. If someone wants to dip just for this, they could have taken a level of Fighter.
- Change the CMD bonus against Disarm, Steal, and Sunder to be equal to your Swashbuckler level. At level 11, you are immune to these abilities. This ability replaces the Subtle Blade deed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem
Yes, the Swashbuckler does need Dex to damage. But we don't want everyone taking Dervish Dance, and we don't want to balance a class around a non-core feat. And we don't want to frontload too many features, so that people aren't tempted to dip.
Solution
Add to Swashbuckler Finesse the ability to use Dex in place of Strength for damage rolls on Finesse weapons, up to a maximum of twice your Swashbuckler level.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem
The Swashbuckler needs better Fortitude and Reflex saves. It's especially perplexing that both parent classes have a good Fortitude save, but the Swashbuckler does not.
Solution
Give the Swashbuckler a good Fortitude save. Replace Bravery with a class feature that allows him to add his Charisma to his Will saves, or to all saves. Include the caveat "this ability does not stack with any other ability that allows you to add Charisma to your saving throws."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem
Opportune Parry and Riposte are overcosted, and completely outclassed by Crane Style for multiple reasons. Furthermore, it is a little too advantageous to take a Master of Many Styles Monk dip and run around with Precision Unarmed Strikes and more counterattacks than your Dexterity has room for.
Solution
Clarify the Precise Strike deed to exclude both Natural Weapons and Unarmed Strikes.
Add a separate mechanic with a name like "Swashbuckling Style". This works just like a Style granted by a Style feat, and cannot be combined with other Styles (not even by a Master of Many Styles).
At 1st level, you may fight defensively at a -2 attack penalty instead of -4 as long as you are using your eligible weapons. At 7th level, the penalty is reduced to -1. At 11th level, the penalty is reduced to 0 and you are considered to be fighting defensively (and benefiting from this style) at all times.
At 3rd level, and every four levels later, the dodge bonus to AC from fighting defensively increases by 1 (to a maximum of +7 at level 19). This ability replaces Nimble.
Change Opportune Parry and Riposte to the following:
Opportune Parry: At 1st level, as long as you have at least one Panache point, you may expend an Attack of Opportunity to Parry one melee attack that would normally hit you. To do so, make an attack roll as if you were making an Attack of Opportunity. If your attack roll is greater than that of the attacking creature, the attack automatically misses. You may attempt to Parry more than one attack per round, but each Parry attempt beyond the first costs one Panache point.
Riposte: If you successfully Parry and your attack roll is greater than the attacking creature's AC, you deal damage to your attacker as if you were making an attack of opportunity.
At 7th level, you automatically succeed on your first Parry attempt each round (though you must still roll to hit with the Riposte). Successive Parries work as normal.
Add the following deed:
At 10th level, as long as you have at least one Panache point, you can make an attack of opportunity against any opponent in your threatened area that misses you with a melee attack.
I'll be getting into the other deeds later, because I think they're mostly underwhelming. That's all for now, let me know what you all think about these.
|
|
A better fix for Derring-Do (if it costs panache to use) is the ability to choose to spend the panache/get the bonus after you see the result of the roll, allowing you to use it if you're close to the DC, while not utterly wasting valuable panache on rolls which were either made anyway or failed by a large margin. Something like 70% of you d20 skill rolls will be in the 'totally wasted' category.
Spending panache should make a difference, not be 80% likely to be totally wasted (I'm looking at you, Opportune Parry)!
Adding Dex to damage, limited by your Swashbuckler levels means that Swashbucklers are going to suck for the first 5 levels or so until their Swashbuckler levels overtake their Dex modifier.
If that were the case, people would just take Dervish Dance anyway, because you get the Dex bonus to damage immediately, instead of having to wait for 5 levels.