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The more I look at the Arcanist, the more it should be a master of all magic, much like Pug from Raymond E Feist's Rift War Saga. Its a studious spellcaster with a spellbook, but is able to pop off a slect number of typically prepared spells spontaneously. In addition to Cartmanbecks suggestion, I would add an ability to change a single spell that she has perpared for the day for another one, giving it a bit of diversity as to being able to "study" a different spell and swap one out for that one for the rest of the day.
I think either making it...
1)a separate ability usble 1/day (maybe up to 4/day at higher levels), by spending 10 minutes (or X amount of time) studying his spellbook, and can swap a prepared spell for another in his spellbook
or
2) by spending a use of Blood Focus he can swap a prepared spell for another in his spellbook by spending X amount of time studying.
This is much how Pug worked. He knew lots, but when he needed something new or different than his usual bunch of spells, he went to his spellbook. Pug really was an Arcanist, as many times he would read a spell, and days or months later it would simply come to him in the heat of the moment and he would spontaneously cast it.
Another way to go would be to use the "Spontanesou Casting" class feature, as suggested by Adam Teles. Either...
1) have the Arcanist be able to spontaneously cast spells from his Blood Focus (Bloodlines School, whatever this ends up being)
or
2) have the Arcanist select what spells she can spontanteously cast as per the Spontaneous Casting ability. Essentially, when he can cast 1st level spells, she choose ONE spell of first level from the sor/wiz spell list. once chosen, it cannot be changed. Then, once she can cast each subsequent level of spell, she would choose her next spontaneous spell. This would allow the Arcanist to create her own list of Spontaneous Casting spells.
In either case, she'd have one spell of each spell level (either from her Bloodline or specifically chosen) to fall back on that she could spontneously cast. May want to increase that to 2 per spell level, but that would need some play testing for balance. As the Arcanist is a spontaneous caster, essentially, a Spontaneous Casting feature (say any Evocation, or School of spells, like druids and their summoning, or clerics and their "cure" spells) would be too much I think. But again, that would require some playtest too in conjunction with the Arcanist's Spellcsasting mechanics.
I think these suggestions, in whatever version the Paizo gang decides would greatly enhance the Arcanist in function, flavor, and utility, and separate it from both the Wizard and Sorcerer.
For me this is the least interesting class in the book. And i can say that now because it is not a issue of how it is made(i think that looks fine) but it is only a rules class in flavor it brings nothing, it dosent fill a niche in any way. If this game is about making a collective story. the Arcanist brings nothing to that story. IMOP
I have no problem inventing orders of magic users in my own way but the only thing that makes the Arcanist different from a wizard is Rules stuff and that is sad.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Hey there folks,
There is some great discussion in this thread. We are working on some big solutions for this class that I am hoping to share with all of you later on today. Keep a look out for it later this afternoon.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Exciting!
so it'd have spells known and spells-per-day like a sorcerer, have bloodlines like a sorcerer, and on the wizard side it gets... scribe scroll. yeah, its just a (weaker, from the loss of bloodline spells) sorcerer at that point, not a hybrid.
have them get a reduced version of arcane schools then, and let them take arcane discoveries. Basically give them a "bonded school".
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A second, simpler option, would be to have its casting work /mostly/ like a wizard, but give it "Spontaneous Spells" like a Cleric or Druid have, but instead of spontaneously casting Cure/Inflict/Summon, you get to choose what spells you can spontaneously cast as you level up, creating a character who can prepare all sorts of utility spells and then when combat happens say "Screw it, fireball" because they were secretly a sorcerer the whole time.THIS SOUNDS GREAT.
Seriously. Having a memorized spell list, but being able to drop them for a spontaneous spell of your choice at each level is awesome, keeps the versatility, but is less powerful than full spontaneous. I like it.
I on the other hand would lose all interest in the class if this was the direction it took.
The full-spontaneous casting is the thing that has me interested. Lose that and it's just another prepared class to me - and therefore just another class I won't play.
I do see the fantasy trope argument, but it can be argued that it fills the generic "mage" troupe in a different way just like the sorcerer and wizard do it in a different way.
I thought something like this would be a prestige class, but since it is a base class I do want the sorc to still have a place. I am now building a 20th level version to compare to a 20th level wizard I built. I don't know if the arcanist will be able to pull off the same idea.
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As for the human favored class bonus argument saying the advantage goes to the sorcerer, we don't know what FCB will do for the arcanist, and not every sorc is a human. If we are just going to compare only the best options then it skews the data a certain way. The bloodline spells matter since they give extra spells, but not all of those spells are equal so saying you get X number of spells is not as accurate as judging how useful the spells are that you will actually use. Out of each bloodline I see 2 to 4 spells that I actually care about. Others may have a different number.
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A second, simpler option, would be to have its casting work /mostly/ like a wizard, but give it "Spontaneous Spells" like a Cleric or Druid have, but instead of spontaneously casting Cure/Inflict/Summon, you get to choose what spells you can spontaneously cast as you level up, creating a character who can prepare all sorts of utility spells and then when combat happens say "Screw it, fireball" because they were secretly a sorcerer the whole time.THIS SOUNDS GREAT.
Seriously. Having a memorized spell list, but being able to drop them for a spontaneous spell of your choice at each level is awesome, keeps the versatility, but is less powerful than full spontaneous. I like it.
I on the other hand would lose all interest in the class if this was the direction it took.
The full-spontaneous casting is the thing that has me interested. Lose that and it's just another prepared class to me - and therefore just another class I won't play.
I agree. This is not something I want to see.
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Here is where my mind on things is right now
The Wizard does things by the book. He's got the formulas down, he knows how it all works and he understands all the bits and pieces.
The Sorcerer grabs a handful of magic and throws it. It's all instinct and in born talent. His spells are written in his DNA. The Why or how of them doesn't matter he just Knows them. Ask him how he casts spells and he just shrugs and says "well you just kind of grab that twisty bit and go Zam and then Woosh and stuff explodes"
Then there is the Arcanist. The dilettante. He's got a little bit of natural talent and a lot of book learning,but he's also got that hint of instinct that says "why not just give it a twist here" or thinks "what if we just swap that crystal for a couple of glass eyes and a chicken foot, no trust me this'll work"
He's the scruffy kid in chemistry class who gives you a wink and says "want to see something cool?"
...
..
.
MacGuyver
He's the MacGuyver of Wizards
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Here is where my mind on things is right now
The Wizard does things by the book. He's got the formulas down, he knows how it all works and he understands all the bits and pieces.
The Sorcerer grabs a handful of magic and throws it. It's all instinct and in born talent. His spells are written in his DNA. The Why or how of them doesn't matter he just Knows them. Ask him how he casts spells and he just shrugs and says "well you just kind of grab that twisty bit and go Zam and then Woosh and stuff explodes"
Then there is the Arcanist. The dilettante. He's got a little bit of natural talent and a lot of book learning,but he's also got that hint of instinct that says "why not just give it a twist here" or thinks "what if we just swap that crystal for a couple of glass eyes and a chicken foot, no trust me this'll work"
He's the scruffy kid in chemistry class who gives you a wink and says "want to see something cool?"
...
..
.MacGuyver
He's the MacGuyver of Wizards
Oh man! You're so right! Okay, I'm thinking now that there should be an option for using your Blood Pool to alter the effects of magic items in some way. Either power them up using your innate magic, or stick them together, or SOMETHING! What if you could meld two wands together, then cast them both as a standard action but use twice as many charges on each?
Soo... many... ideas...
So here are my thoughts on the arcanist, having now thrown a few at a couple of unsuspecting PCs.
Damn, that spellcasting system is fun. I've always been a fan of spontaneous spellcasting and this system is even better. Honestly, you could probably slap this onto the wizard or magus with very few problems in the long run.
That said, Blood Focus is a terribly designed ability. Its a lot of bookwork for little benefit. I have to keep track of my specialization school (and unlike Wizards, it reads like an arcanist is forced to specialize), bloodline powers per day, and the blood focus on top of my spells per day. In practice, my arcanist NPCs weren't memorable for my PCs to fight. They had no abilities that even slightly suggested that these characters weren't just wizards or sorcerers. If the Magus is one Hybrid extreme (so different that it warrants being a base class), the Arcanist is the polar opposite (so similar its barely indistinguishable from its parts).
One thing I do like, however, is how the Blood Focus essentially works as the old Psionic Focus ability from the Psionics Handbook. Its a neat mechanic with a lot of potential, but it deserves new mechanics.
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Here is where my mind on things is right now
The Wizard does things by the book. He's got the formulas down, he knows how it all works and he understands all the bits and pieces.
The Sorcerer grabs a handful of magic and throws it. It's all instinct and in born talent. His spells are written in his DNA. The Why or how of them doesn't matter he just Knows them. Ask him how he casts spells and he just shrugs and says "well you just kind of grab that twisty bit and go Zam and then Woosh and stuff explodes"
Then there is the Arcanist. The dilettante. He's got a little bit of natural talent and a lot of book learning,but he's also got that hint of instinct that says "why not just give it a twist here" or thinks "what if we just swap that crystal for a couple of glass eyes and a chicken foot, no trust me this'll work"
He's the scruffy kid in chemistry class who gives you a wink and says "want to see something cool?"
...
..
.MacGuyver
He's the MacGuyver of Wizards
THIS....very nicely put.
I would rather they tossed the bloodline abilities out, and gave the arcanist a means to further twist and bend magic in interesting way's.
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It really feels like this class needs to have its own specific bloodlines that are optimized for the Blood Focus ability. Like how the Shaman has specialized Spirits that take from the Oracle Mysteries. Or how the Warpriest has Blessings based off Cleric Domains. Or how the Bloodrager's Bloodlines are obviously based off Sorcerer Bloodlines, but have been changed for how the class works.
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Oh man! You're so right! Okay, I'm thinking now that there should be an option for using your Blood Pool to alter the effects of magic items in some way. Either power them up using your innate magic, or stick them together, or SOMETHING! What if you could meld two wands together, then cast them both as a standard action but use twice as many charges on each?
Soo... many... ideas...
Or spend Blood Focus uses to expend charges in a magical item to cast extra spells at a charge cost = to the spell's level. OR restrict it to only Bloodline/School spells.
Maybe even be able to cast spells from other spell lists (within reason). Again, similar to Pug in Rift War Saga. Arcanists should have breadth of magical skill, instead of the depth of magical skill the sorcerer and wizard have. Being able to use and manipulate magic of all kinds and types, and being less concerned with a specific style of learniing or casting. That also fits into their current style of spellcasting. Essentially,if it's magic, lets learn about it, play with it, and manipulate it. Sort of ajack of all schools/bloodlines (trades) of the magical realm.
I do agree with what's been voiced elsewhere, I think if each class had a its individual flavor and role nailed down, it would be easier to see if the class is living up to its purpose.
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...Arcanists should have breadth of magical skill, instead of the depth of magical skill the sorcerer and wizard have...
This, I believe, more succinctly articulates what I was trying to get at before. The bloodlines and school specializations of the respective parent classes represent a "depth of magical skill" to which you're referring. The arcanist shouldn't necessarily simply ape either but should focus instead on what both classes have in common: arcane spellcasting.
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The Arcanist flavor wise is not needed. It is a purely mechanical class that is as bland as an arcane bloodline Sorcerer.
It seems that the consensus is is still on the fence in regards to it invalidating the sorcerer, but from what I can tell, people are leaning to it doing such a thing.
Invalidating the Rouge and Monk are one thing, but it is completely different to create a class that invalidates one of the strongest classes in the game. Such a beast would only get worse as books are released and more material is available to support it. People are weighing the Arcanist against Sorcerers and Wizards who have a wealth of material to support them, and the Arcanist is holding its own with only its bare bones class features to help it and that is terrifying.
Now in regards to it invalidating the Wizard mechanically. Despite being behind one spell level, spontaneous casting and retaining the ability to learn all of the Sorcerer/Wizard spells in the game are well worth the trade off for unparalleled power. Apart from a few select arcane schools such as Divination, which gives you a massive Initiative boost, the ability to spontaneously cast puts them ahead of Wizards in power level.
And as for a specialist wizard being able to cast the same number of spells if not more, the Arcanist can cast all spells from every school Equally
A class that has a power boost over the Wizard, however slight some might view it, does not need to exist in the game. The floor should be brought up, not the ceiling utterly removed.
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Here is where my mind on things is right now
The Wizard does things by the book. He's got the formulas down, he knows how it all works and he understands all the bits and pieces.
The Sorcerer grabs a handful of magic and throws it. It's all instinct and in born talent. His spells are written in his DNA. The Why or how of them doesn't matter he just Knows them. Ask him how he casts spells and he just shrugs and says "well you just kind of grab that twisty bit and go Zam and then Woosh and stuff explodes"
Then there is the Arcanist. The dilettante. He's got a little bit of natural talent and a lot of book learning,but he's also got that hint of instinct that says "why not just give it a twist here" or thinks "what if we just swap that crystal for a couple of glass eyes and a chicken foot, no trust me this'll work"
He's the scruffy kid in chemistry class who gives you a wink and says "want to see something cool?"
...
..
.MacGuyver
He's the MacGuyver of Wizards
So... The Arcanist should be a master of magic itself, not of the workings of magic or the source of magic, huh? I like this. Extreme care must be taken to not translate this into raw power, I guess, but nifty little abilities can be thought out without increasing the power level. For example: the Arcanist could have an ability that lets him prepare spells with a swapped energy descriptor, such as a Cold Fireball, or an Acid Lightning Bolt. And then you could have an expendable resource to change the energy on the fly. Hmmm... Again, I like this.
EDIT: Hmmm... This could be extended to metamagic. You could prepare a metamagicked spell like a Wizard, or spend the resource to apply it on the fly! Ideas, ideas.
Hey there folks,
There is some great discussion in this thread. We are working on some big solutions for this class that I am hoping to share with all of you later on today. Keep a look out for it later this afternoon.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Awesome! And boooo! I hate being at GMT -2. I never know what you guys mean by "later this afternoon". D:
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Hmm I want to like this class... I am curently homebrewing up a bit of an alteration. Essentially I am making bloodline s that are school based, and flavoring it as the arcanists study of their own heritage or something in their blood unlocks certain special powers as leveling. I did decrease the spells prepared chart and the spells per day chart, but then did add a spell list that they count as always having prepped when attained. Will probably post that in the homebrew area when done, but would love to have it inspire ideas ;-)
The way its casting works can be balanced I think it is just slightly off on spells per day right now.
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Actually you need to check your own as you still seem to be living in 2008. You can't just ignore the material which the sorcerer and/or wizard can make use of which the arcanist cant when making comparisons between the two.
Favored Class bonuses that force you to play a specific race should not be the differentiating factor between two classes. I don't see how I can state that any more clearly for you.
If you play a Sorcerer and are not human, you will be overshadowed by an Arcanist at every turn. That's a problem.
Hey there folks,
There is some great discussion in this thread. We are working on some big solutions for this class that I am hoping to share with all of you later on today. Keep a look out for it later this afternoon.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Brilliant! Can't wait!
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EDIT: Hmmm... This could be extended to metamagic. You could prepare a metamagicked spell like a Wizard, or spend the resource to apply it on the fly! Ideas, ideas.
The class as it exists does this, by letting you prepare metamagiced spells and also letting you use metamagic on the fly. It doesn't even make you spend resources for it! Though I suppose spending resources to apply metamagic on the fly could be one of the nerfs that so many think this class needs.
EDIT: Hmmm... This could be extended to metamagic. You could prepare a metamagicked spell like a Wizard, or spend the resource to apply it on the fly! Ideas, ideas.The class as it exists does this, by letting you prepare metamagiced spells and also letting you use metamagic on the fly. It doesn't even make you spend resources for it! Though I suppose spending resources to apply metamagic on the fly could be one of the nerfs that so many think this class needs.
Yep, my thoughts exactly! ^_^ I actually posted about this yesterday, but hey, with this monster of a thread, one can't quite expect everyone to read every single reply. :) For the record, here's said post.
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Yep, my thoughts exactly! ^_^ I actually posted about this yesterday, but hey, with this monster of a thread, one can't quite expect everyone to read every single reply. :) For the record, here's said post.
I actually read the whole thread and had what was apparently your post in mind when writing my brief post*...the usernames attached to the posts just didn't register with me. *blush*
*I can't really say much other than my general impressions, since I don't have a group to playtest with and find running encounters against myself so mind-numbingly dull that nothing useful would come of it.
Hey there folks,
There is some great discussion in this thread. We are working on some big solutions for this class that I am hoping to share with all of you later on today. Keep a look out for it later this afternoon.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
But, but, I have a game in 30 mins. I won't be able to see it til tomorrow!
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I too find the blood focus ability a little lackluster and fiddly. I would prefer something along the lines of the hexes/arcana/discoveries etc that the Arcanist can pick at various levels that affect how they use magic.
Maybe have one that allows you to select INT/CHA squares in an area spell that are not affected (yay fireball around allies); or as suggested earlier change the damage type of a spell; maybe allow you to apply metamagic feats to a spell spontaneously without increasing the level but by using up a similar number of 'blood focus' points; heck, maybe allow two spells to be merged together and cast at the same time but at a combined level of the two spells (magic missile and shield for a level 2 spell etc).
I'm loving that I'm not the only one that isn't thrilled with the Blood Focus ability.
Suggestion: What if instead the blood focus pool added metamagic feats? Then the arcanist would be flavored as a spell manipulator rather than 'different wizard'. Also it would give it a great amount of versatility by changing what spells do on the fly.
But, but, I have a game in 30 mins. I won't be able to see it til tomorrow!Hey there folks,
There is some great discussion in this thread. We are working on some big solutions for this class that I am hoping to share with all of you later on today. Keep a look out for it later this afternoon.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
It's currently 6:40pm in Seattle. It likely won't be up until tomorrow anyway.
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Perhaps the arcanist studies magic in a way neither (or any) class has before. They see the next step in understanding how it interacts with the world. This is why they can cast in a semi-spontaneous way. They understand the spell, but more importantly, they understand the way magic works with the universe. They have more refined control over magic than either the sorcerer or the wizard.
Not sure if this will sweeten or embitter people to this interpretation of the Arcanist's flavor, but posts like this put me in mind of the following exchanges:
Twilight Sparkle Huh?
Princess Celestia But you need to learn to tame these abilities through focused study.
That said, I'm not sure where this leaves the Wizard flavor-wise. I'm not talking about what makes the practice of Wizardry distinct from the practice of Arcanistry (cutting the Arcanist off from schools accomplishes that), I'm talking about what makes a Wizard's power source distinct from an Arcanist's. As Lord Snow points out, a Wizard is already someone with magical potential who develops it through "focused study". The Arcanist establishes definitively that potential in the bloodline can be developed through "focused study". But then what, exactly, is the Wizard developing? Not potential in the blood, surely. Before the Arcanist existed we could pretend that's what they were or could be doing, but now if we know that if that's what they were doing they would be an Arcanist. Magical potential inherent in any mortal? Then why are any mortals mundane? What is a Wizard's magical potential?
The Arcanist has managed not only to be fairly flavorless on its own terms, but also to detract from or at least muddy the flavor of other classes. Which is a little bit bizarre.
I like the casting system. I liked it in the Next playtest and when the Spirit Shaman did it in 3.5. I wish it was the default, actually, because I absolutely hate Vancian magic. Well, no, I wish spontaneous Sorcerer-like casting was the default, but I would settle for the Arcanist's style if I had to.
However, the spellbook thing is still tedious, so I don't think I really want people playing them, because then I need to leave spellbooks around as loot and it just gets annoying.
I also find the Blood Focus to be really clunky, weird, unnecessary, and "tacked on." I don't like the Sorcerer Bloodline thing in the first place, so adding it to another class just has zero appeal for me, especially in such an arbitrarily limiting fashion.
I'd rather if they got a school or a bloodline. No, I guess ultimately, I wish this wasn't a class at all, but rather an alternate casting system for prepared casters in general, like Word Casting or a series of archetypes (if it had to be legal for PFS play). I don't see why this is a class on its own.
Lead Designer
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It's currently 6:40pm in Seattle. It likely won't be up until tomorrow anyway.But, but, I have a game in 30 mins. I won't be able to see it til tomorrow!Hey there folks,
There is some great discussion in this thread. We are working on some big solutions for this class that I am hoping to share with all of you later on today. Keep a look out for it later this afternoon.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I would not assume that to be true... I am still at the office.
While folks will not be getting new rules just yet, I think I will be floating conceptual ideas with some examples later on here tonight. I have James' game here in a bit, but I have my tablet with me, so I can continue working.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
It's currently 6:40pm in Seattle. It likely won't be up until tomorrow anyway.But, but, I have a game in 30 mins. I won't be able to see it til tomorrow!Hey there folks,
There is some great discussion in this thread. We are working on some big solutions for this class that I am hoping to share with all of you later on today. Keep a look out for it later this afternoon.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead DesignerI would not assume that to be true... I am still at the office.
While folks will not be getting new rules just yet, I think I will be floating conceptual ideas with some examples later on here tonight. I have James' game here in a bit, but I have my tablet with me, so I can continue working.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Multi-tasking! Like a BOSS!
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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It's currently 6:40pm in Seattle. It likely won't be up until tomorrow anyway.But, but, I have a game in 30 mins. I won't be able to see it til tomorrow!Hey there folks,
There is some great discussion in this thread. We are working on some big solutions for this class that I am hoping to share with all of you later on today. Keep a look out for it later this afternoon.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead DesignerI would not assume that to be true... I am still at the office.
While folks will not be getting new rules just yet, I think I will be floating conceptual ideas with some examples later on here tonight. I have James' game here in a bit, but I have my tablet with me, so I can continue working.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Out of curiosity, are you guys also playtesting these classes in your games? I'd be very curious to see the build that the Lead Designer uses. :)
First off, let me preface this by saying that I haven’t read most comment yet, so I might be repeating ideas that were already thrown around the forum. I apologize if that is the case. It simply means that I add my voice to those who already said them. Also, this is just my opinion, not facts. I’m merely saying what I would have liked. Now, let’s look at the class.
As someone who liked the Ultimate Magus prc from 3.5, I like the idea of mixing innate magic with learned magic. With the addition of bloodline, it had the potential for something really cool.
Unfortunately, I don’t really like how this plays out. I haven’t play tested the class, but it seems overpowered at first. It basically gets most of what is good in a wizard and all the good stuff of spontaneous spell casting. I mean, it’s like a sorcerer that can change all his spells each day, without penalty. Sure, you lose a bit on the bloodline stuff, and arcane bond, but you get so much versatility with your spells that it more than compensates for it.
I think I would have gone with one of two directions. One would be normal wizard spell casting but with the option to spontaneously cast your bloodline spell, a bit like what cleric can do with cure spells. You can put some other stuff around, like blood focus, or slower progression to balance things out. I just think that the current spell casting method is too strong.
The other option would be to give a lot of spell slot, but slower progression and less spell know. You can even give spell slot with no spell know, to be use with metamagic. That would make the arcanist in the metamagic niche. It gives versatility (in a sense), more lasting power, but less raw power. You can keep something akin to blood focus to make sure the arcanist can use his extra spell slot to do many things, like increase DC for example.
I think I prefer the second option myself, as I see the arcanist as more of a caster with a deeper power source (he got two in fact) than a wannabe sorcerer-who-turned-wizard because his blood is not good enough. I just don’t know how it would balance out and would probably need a lot effort.
No, I guess ultimately, I wish this wasn't a class at all, but rather an alternate casting system for prepared casters in general, like Word Casting or a series of archetypes (if it had to be legal for PFS play). I don't see why this is a class on its own.
Pretty much agreed. It feels like a wizard with alternate casting. Very little flavour to it, kind of bland.
However it looks like a Sorcerer/Wizard is on the cards, so the real matter at hand is what would we rather have than what we have currently?
In my opinion it needs to be doing something way more radical to differentiate it from either to justify its existence. Something as out there as perhaps you pick a school and you can ONLY cast spells from that school. All spells from that school are known to you though, and you prep a number of them per day and can spontaneously cast from those prepped. Then you have a real reason for the alternate spell mechanics, the class is clearly and unequivocally not as straight up powerful and versatile as a Wizard or Sorcerer can potentially be, but is very powerful and versatile within its niche. You could also have school powers that are better than the norm for wizards to make up for their super-specialisation.
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Lead Designer
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Hey there folks,
I just posted up some proposed conceptual and rules revisions for the Arcanist. Note that these are not the changes themselves, but a summary of the direction we are taking. We would appreciate your comments and feedback on this new direction.
You can find the new direction discussion thread here
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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Lead Designer
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Out of curiosity, are you guys also playtesting these classes in your games? I'd be very curious to see the build that the Lead Designer uses. :)
Not in tonight's game. We all have very well established characters, having reached 15th level. We did just get our first mythic tier, but I won't derail this thread further...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
It's currently 6:40pm in Seattle. It likely won't be up until tomorrow anyway.But, but, I have a game in 30 mins. I won't be able to see it til tomorrow!Hey there folks,
There is some great discussion in this thread. We are working on some big solutions for this class that I am hoping to share with all of you later on today. Keep a look out for it later this afternoon.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead DesignerI would not assume that to be true... I am still at the office.
While folks will not be getting new rules just yet, I think I will be floating conceptual ideas with some examples later on here tonight. I have James' game here in a bit, but I have my tablet with me, so I can continue working.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
You know it is considered bad form to work on your IPad when you are playing, yes?
And if you have some flavor for this one that will make it be more than the wizard but with other rules, then bad form is fine| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've seen quite a few Arcanist builds now, and I still can't see any situation where it doesn't completely outclasses Sorcerers.
Having access to their whole spell list and being able to cast it spontaneously is still much better than anything any Bloodline can do.
And of course, Int based casting also give them skills and much better Knowledge/Spellcraft checks, while Sorcerer have huge Charisma but not enough skill points to make a decent party face.
I guess Sorcerers will soon join Rogues on the support group for classes who were made completely obsolete by another class.
:(
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I've seen quite a few Arcanist builds now, and I still can't see any situation where it doesn't completely outclasses Sorcerers.
Having access to their whole spell list and being able to cast it spontaneously is still much better than anything any Bloodline can do.
And of course, Int based casting also give them skills and much better Knowledge/Spellcraft checks, while Sorcerer have huge Charisma but not enough skill points to make a decent party face.
I guess Sorcerers will soon join Rogues on the support group for classes who were made completely obsolete by another class.
:(
I definitely agree, the Sorcerer came into its own in its transition from 3.5 to Pathfinder and now this class obsoletes it. I'm still of the opinion that they give Wizards something to worry about. especially if the new take on the class goes into effect. It seems a full caster anti-mage who can freely access and spontaneously cast off his entire spell list will definitely win the title of strongest class in the game.
I think the way I see the Arcanist, as currently would be:
The Arcanist is better than the Sorcerer because you have access to, effectively, any spell, given a chance to wait for tomorrow. The Arcanist is worse than the Sorcerer because today, you has fewer spell slots, fewer spells "known", and Blood Focus is weaker than the Bloodline (when arcana is accounted for). The Arcanist is also worse than the Sorcerer because the ability to change out your spells "known" tomorrow makes you likely to not work as hard to make sure your today spell selection covers all the bases you might ever need to cover. The Arcanist is also better than the Sorcerer because he can prepare some of your spells with metamagic, permitting you to cast metamagic'd spells without resorting to a full-round action, expensive rods, or Quicken Spell. The Arcanist is the same as the Sorcerer in that you still need items or highly versatile spells for any situation where you just don't have time to wait until tomorrow.
The Arcanist is better than the Wizard because you don't need to decide in the morning exactly how many times you're going to cast each spell, and with what metamagic (aside from using rods). The Arcanist is better than the Wizard because you get more flexibility in spell slots, as all those slots are unrestricted and spontaneous (you have the same number of spell slots as a specialist wizard). This makes the Arcanist less dependent upon correctly determining what spells are needed today. The Arcanist is worse than the Wizard because you cannot leave some slots empty in the morning, and fill them with exactly the spells appropriate to the situation later in the day.
All told, I like the casting mechanic in of itself, but I'm not sure I like that mechanic when it sits between fully-prepared and fully-spontaneous casters. It definitely works well in isolation, but with both normal casting mechanics already present I'm not sure it contributes a lot. It's got elements of the best and worst of both prepared and spontaneous at the same time.
I'd probably be more likely to play a Sorcerer because there's more flavor (at the moment), and because the inability to pick out new spells each day (coupled with the lack of need to hunt up new spells) would push me to pick my level-up spells very carefully.
With the upcoming change, the class sounds like it will have enough flavor, and a unique enough niche among full arcane casters to draw me in on the concept, whether or not I prefer the casting mechanic.
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Ah, indeed... An Int-based full-casting spontaneous Wizard with anti-caster abilities. I'm sure that won't be completely broken... ¬¬'
I'm honestly worried that the Arcanist will kick the ass of any semblance of balance in the game.
For the first time since I started playing Pathfinder, I'll ban a whole class in my games.
I GMed for Master Summoners, TWF Gunslingers, God Wizards/Clerics, spell-sundering Barbarians, Slumber-spamming Witches and all other stuff that people so often say is broken in this forum.
Never before had I thought "This is so broken it makes me I wish they hadn't created this" so I suppose I should congratulate the Arcanist for breaking new ground.
Ah, indeed... An Int-based full-casting spontaneous Wizard with anti-caster abilities. I'm sure that won't be completely broken... ¬¬'
I'm really worried that the Arcanist will kick the ass of any semblance of balance in the game.
For the first time since I started playing Pathfinder, I'll ban a whole class in my game.
I GMed for Master Summoners, TWF Gunslingers, God Wizards/Clerics, spell-sundering Barbarians, Slumber-spamming Witches and all other stuff that people so often say is broken in this forum.
Never before had I thought "This is so broken I wish they hadn't created this" so I suppose I should congratulate the Arcanist for breaking new ground.
It's really not as bad as you say it is, unless you DM games where the players can wait a full 24 hour in game period for their 'sorcerer' to swap a spell known to get around a challenge you throw at them, but at that point this class can't do anything a Paragon Surge half elf can't.
It's really not as bad as you say it is, unless you DM games where the players can wait a full 24 hour in game period for their 'sorcerer' to swap a spell known to get around a challenge you throw at them
Being able to change their spell list "only" once a day never stopped prepared full-casters form being the most powerful classes in the game.
but at that point this class can't do anything a Paragon Surge half elf can't.
A sorcerer abusing one the most broken spell loopholes in the game can stay competitive... That means the Arcanist is balanced!
"Human Sorcerer using FCB" and "Paragon Surge Exploit" are not good measures of balance.
Ah, indeed... An Int-based full-casting spontaneous Wizard with anti-caster abilities. I'm sure that won't be completely broken... ¬¬'
I'm honestly worried that the Arcanist will kick the ass of any semblance of balance in the game.
For the first time since I started playing Pathfinder, I'll ban a whole class in my games.
I GMed for Master Summoners, TWF Gunslingers, God Wizards/Clerics, spell-sundering Barbarians, Slumber-spamming Witches and all other stuff that people so often say is broken in this forum.
Never before had I thought "This is so broken it makes me I wish they hadn't created this" so I suppose I should congratulate the Arcanist for breaking new ground.
I was not that sure it would be a problem before the revision idea showed up. But now I feel much more sympathy towards your standing.Anti-magic and spontaneously enhancing spell-casting is way too much to add on to the already pouncing-boundary spell mechanics. That said, I really like that idea of a raw-magic-energy caster. Hope they guys can find out some way to save the balance in the end(perhaps by reducing the spell per day number).
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You know what, I'll save further judgement on this class 'til I see the revised version and get to playtest it.
But I have no expectation of this class being anything but completely unbalanced and guilty of obsoleting two of the most powerful classes in the game.
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Ah, indeed... An Int-based full-casting spontaneous Wizard with anti-caster abilities. I'm sure that won't be completely broken... ¬¬'
Without having seen the new mechanic that's going to replace Blood Focus, I'm not really in a position to critique it. But there are some ideas that come to mind. Perhaps the "eat spells" ability or whatever it is could get bonus uses off a stat that isn't Intelligence (making a class MAD is a good way to nerf it). Perhaps there could be a way for a clever opponent to "overfill" an Arcanist (gotta give the GMs something to play with too). Perhaps the Arcanist can only cast spells within a certain number of rounds after consuming someone else's, but not the same round, not even with Quickened spells (depriving it of ways to abuse the action economy).
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It's really not as bad as you say it is, unless you DM games where the players can wait a full 24 hour in game period for their 'sorcerer' to swap a spell known to get around a challenge you throw at themBeing able to change their spell list "only" once a day never stopped prepared full-casters form being the most powerful classes in the game.
but at that point this class can't do anything a Paragon Surge half elf can't.A sorcerer abusing one the most broken spell loopholes in the game can stay competitive... That means the Arcanist is balanced!
"Human Sorcerer using FCB" and "Paragon Surge Exploit" are not good measures of balance.
They do when your stance on them being broken is comparing them to Synthesist Summoners, TWF gunslingers, and God Wizards.
This class is no more powerful than the wizard, it's slightly more versatile in the fact that if it turns out the player doesn't need to cast 'Knock' in your dungeon, then it isn't a waste of a spell slot for him to memorize it and he can instead use that slot on an extra 'Scorching Ray' in combat.
It is less broken than things that already exist in the game, and it really won't cause as many problems as you think.