Arcanist Discussion


Class Discussion

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What if they could prep or cast less spells but could collect and Prep Bloodline abilities instead of picking a specific Bloodline to tap into

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Lemmy wrote:
Much more balanced, still keeps its flavor and doesn't require bizarre exception to the rules that barely impact the effectiveness of the class ("you don't get spells from high Int scores").

It's not a bizarre exception: it's explaining you get bonus spell slots, but not spells prepared. This makes it work like a sorcerer (who doesn't get more spells known for high Chr) or a wizard (where the issue is moot because spells prepared and spell slots are one and the same.)


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Peter Stewart wrote:
ErrantX wrote:

Obligatory lightning warrior remark:

It's balanced because it doesn't get a familiar.

/sarcasm

For real though: Not getting a specialization or a bonded item/critter does not equal unparalleled versatility in a sorcerer with the entire spell list at his disposal. If a wizard doesn't have to prep multiples of something and can drop metamagic like a DJ with the bass without having to prep it ahead of time? I'm sorry, but this is way OP. There isn't a way to combine these casting methods without breaking the game. Sorc is balanced because of it's limited spells (or so it's said) and wizard is balanced because someone said so (it's not).

Getting spells a level behind isn't as big a deal as you're thinking; sorcerer easily pegs Tier 2 and if well built could even approach Tier 1 in potency. Giving the hallmark versatility of the sorcerer and giving it to the wizard? You could strip away all of its class features and make it take a level in commoner and it will STILL out power any other class in the game.

I'm sorry, but I have to say that this is opening a big can of worms here.

My suggestion to you is to give wizards the bloodline abilities and remove the book; instead have the book basically be in the blood of the caster but he has to meditate and such to prep the spells. When recording new spells, he practices with it until he assimilates it within his own soul/blood spellbook.

-X

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that your perceptions of balance are probably not in line with those of the designers and those of many members of the community. Neither they, nor I, nor many other people subscribe to the 'tier theory' that drives most of this commentary. Potential options in a vacuum have not, and likely will never become, a concern except in unusual games in which the GM does not drive the plot and the the PCs are guided only by a particular sort of self-serving game theory.

The assumptions within which Paizo designs typical center around adherence...

As a game designer within the PF ruleset myself, I respectfully disagree with your opinion. The tier system does exist; if you refuse to acknowledge it you're putting your head in the sand. Players will do what they do; a character is only as strong as it's player's knowledge allows it.

However, as a veteran player and DM with over 25 years of play experience I can safely say that if I sat down and played an arcanist in a party with people, I would be able to do whatever it was I wanted regardless of the DM's whim or not.

If the DM has to carry a heavy stick to lever the players into his plot, then the tools being used by the player are what come into suspicion to me. An arcanist is likely to have almost any arcane spell at his disposal as written for use at any time, and more or less invalidates wanting to play either of it's parent classes. I can say with all certainty anyone playing a fighter is going to see his worth dwindle quickly with a class like this in the party.

You may not like the Tier System, but ignoring that it exists makes for bad products with poorly implemented systems that will wreak havoc with your game. Not just between players with power disparity, but with the CR system as monsters will have to be stronger to keep up with classes like this.

-X


Lemmy wrote:

This class is way too powerful. It's only significant disadvantage compared to a Wizard is getting the spells 1 level later. Not getting bonus spells from high Int scores really doesn't matter when you get scribe scrolls as a bonus feat and can easily afford stuff like pearls of power.

The Arcanist suffers from the same problem of Firearms. They gave it a very powerful mechanic and then had to come up with all sorts of contrived weaknesses to compensate, but, instead of making it all but completely useless to everyone but a single class, the "weaknesses"of the Arcanist don't come even close to balance the power of a full-casting Int-based spontaneous caster who is capable of learning all spells in her spell list.

This class is going to be a serious problem for game balance.

Make it more like a sorcerer, but Int based, with fewer spells per day (same number as a Wizard) and with a single vancian spell slot per spell level instead of Bloodline spells (that maybe increase to 2 vancian slots per spell level at some point). This vancian spell slot would be the equivalent to Wizards' specialized school spell slot.

Much more balanced, still keeps its flavor and doesn't require bizarre exception to the rules that barely impact the effectiveness of the class ("you don't get spells from high Int scores").

I honestly do not see how this is true.. YES an arcanist can "Spontaneously cast spells" or alter metamagic on the fly.. and the blood focus is cool (adding +1 CL and Save DCs is NEVER a bad thing), but in order to use blood focus or a bloodline ability you have to spend a point to use it. and yeah sure at higher levels this may be alot, but 3 + 1/2 your arcanist level isnt that much at lower levels... and has no one considered that from what ive seen, that these classes could be more for PFS play?

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

This is not the place to debate the merits of the 'Tier System' or what the most powerful class in the game is.

Personally, I can see plenty of reasons to play a Wizard over an Arcanist.


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Lemmy wrote:

This class is way too powerful. It's only significant disadvantage compared to a Wizard is getting the spells 1 level later. Not getting bonus spells from high Int scores really doesn't matter when you get scribe scrolls as a bonus feat and can easily afford stuff like pearls of power.

The Arcanist suffers from the same problem of Firearms. They gave it a very powerful mechanic and then had to come up with all sorts of contrived weaknesses to compensate, but, instead of making it all but completely useless to everyone but a single class, the "weaknesses"of the Arcanist don't come even close to balance the power of a full-casting Int-based spontaneous caster who is capable of learning all spells in her spell list.

This class is going to be a serious problem for game balance.

Make it more like a sorcerer, but Int based, with fewer spells per day (same number as a Wizard) and with a single vancian spell slot per spell level instead of Bloodline spells (that maybe increase to 2 vancian slots per spell level at some point). This vancian spell slot would be the equivalent to Wizards' specialized school spell slot.

Much more balanced, still keeps its flavor and doesn't require bizarre exception to the rules that barely impact the effectiveness of the class ("you don't get spells from high Int scores").

Well, here's an example of the variation in balance between them. I built out my current (human)14th level wizard as a sorcerer and an arcanist and got the following as spells 'known' (in the wizard case spells prepared).

Wizard
4/7/7/7/6/6/5/4
Sorcerer
9/8/8/7/8/7/6/5
Arcanist
9/5/5/4/4/4/3/2

My take away is the same as it was in my initial post. The sorcerer can cover the most ground at any one time. They're going to react best when they have no idea what the circumstance is or when they are not able to prepare. Rushing off to save the Queen, going through an unknown portal, or finding out the fire giants are really frost giants isn't going to be much of a problem.

The wizard is going to be the strongest when they know what they are going up against, because they can tailor their list as narrowly or broadly as needed for that circumstance. Because they can go pretty broad (even with high level slots) they can also survive in a highly generalized environment (assuming they know it is coming) and be successful.

Finally, the arcanist is going to be murder when given a chance to sit back and prepare for each encounter in turn. They get significantly fewer total spells available at the higher levels (in this case 9 spells of 5th level or higher vs. 15 and 18 respectively), but they are going to struggle badly when they mistake what they are going into and over specialize - and unlike the wizard that is going to be very easy to do with so few different spells available. If they focus on utility magic and end up in a combat circumstance they could easily end up with very few applicable high level spells, while if they specialize in combat magic they could wind up useless in terms of utility for the day.

I think all three bring something to the table, with the wizard theoretically remaining atop the pyramid but getting displaced now and them.

(None of this touches upon the options available to a high level sorcerer in a truly high optimization game that utterly negate any and all weaknesses relating to spells available in pathfinder and make the wizard's 'scribe scroll' feat look absolutely adorable. If you think that you know optimization and still think the wizard outshines the sorcerer at high level you probably don't know nearly as much as you think - not that I think high level optimization has any bearing on class design here).


This one I really like. I quite like the median point between a full sorcerer who will never cast the obscure spells and the wizard who won't prepare the "just in case" spells because he needs to have 3 of whatever his go-to spells are.

I get the point of the fatigue condition if the Arcanist uses up his last blood focus use; it's to represent the character exhausting his magical power. (A very common idea in post-Vance fantasy fiction is the idea of the wizard who's too tired to stand up after using every last bit of willpower and energy during a magical fight.) But I don't think the Arcanist should be stuck with Fatigued for the rest of the day. For a class that's as Dresden-esque as this, I think that the fatigue should just last for a few minutes after the fight ends. Or allow a Will or Fort save to end at least. As written, no Arcanist will use their last blood focus unless they're certain that their adventuring day is over.

Oh, and the Blood Focus needs a better name; one that doesn't sound like it involves ritual sacrifices or Bloatmages. It should just be Resolve or something similar that isn't already being used as the name of some other game element.


Kaisos Erranon wrote:

This invalidates both of its component classes and doesn't really fill any kind of given niche besides. Lacking in any real class abilities and having as its only flavour "my blood was too thin to be a sorcerer so now I'm trying to be a wizard" doesn't help.

Honestly, this is the only class in this playtest that I feel is completely unnecessary and would be better off not existing... having a 1/2 BAB no-armor divine caster would have been a better idea, in my opinion. You could even claim that it's a cleric/wizard hybrid, too!

Where as I'm very glad to see this come about as several sorcs in my groups have regretted spell selections later and before retraining was available were very unhappy players. This compromise seems tailor made for players playing their 1st primary arcane caster as any spell selection "mistakes" can be quickly fixed in game and with little fuss. This memorize and cast spontaneously method is what kept me looking at Arcana Evolved classes even after Pathfinder released. Seeing it now is really a good thing in my opinion. Besides it doesn't invalidate both classes. For one familiar builds would be left lacking here (without using feats), the class doesn't get school specializations, can't access wild blooded bloodlines, and relies on a spellbook. It is in fact a real hybrid, that could see great use (as mentioned before it could be a great 1st arcane caster class for a learning player).


I really don't know how to comment on the arcanist. I love this kind of prepared spontaneousity, but having ultimate arcane power and potential is pretty powerful and at the moment the class itself looks a little bare and boring outside of spellcasting. That might just be me though. If it matters, the spell casting looks more fun than wizards and less punishing than sorcerers.


Ross Byers wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Much more balanced, still keeps its flavor and doesn't require bizarre exception to the rules that barely impact the effectiveness of the class ("you don't get spells from high Int scores").
It's not a bizarre exception: it's explaining you get bonus spell slots, but not spells prepared. This makes it work like a sorcerer (who doesn't get more spells known for high Chr) or a wizard (where the issue is moot because spells prepared and spell slots are one and the same.)

My bad, I meant spell slots.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Peter Stewart wrote:

Well, here's an example of the variation in balance between them. I built out my current (human)14th level wizard as a sorcerer and an arcanist and got the following as spells 'known' (in the wizard case spells prepared).

Wizard
4/7/7/7/6/6/5/4
Sorcerer
9/8/8/7/8/7/6/5
Arcanist
9/5/5/4/4/4/3/2

My take away is the same as it was in my initial post. The sorcerer can cover the most ground at any one time. They're going to react best when they have no idea what the circumstance is or when they are not able to prepare. Rushing off to save the Queen, going through an unknown portal, or finding out the fire giants are really frost giants isn't going to be much of a...

Did you use the Sorcerer alternative favored class bonus for human? Because I honestly don't consider that to be a fair comparison since they don't exist for Arcanist yet.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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I agree with Peter. A wizard has enough spell slots that they can either prepare backup spells (in case something does not go as planned), or 'double up' on spells when they're specializing (looking a lot like the Arcanist in those fights because they cast the same spell more than once.)

Another comment is that an Arcanist is 'fidgety', by which I mean the majority of players (in my personal experience) figure out their wizard's prepared spells and only change a spell or two around the edges when they know of a good reason. Their 'spells per day' are damn close to just being their spells known. An Arcanist, in contrast, has so few spells prepared they really do need to change it nearly daily to make it effective against what they're fighting that day.

That's great for players who love fiddling out every little advantage, but a pain for players who just want to get back to exploding goblins. (So if you think the optimizers will get too much out of it, you might be missing that they're the intended audience.)

There is a certain amount of player-angst tied up in these decisions as well: When your sorcerer lacks a spell, there's nothing you can do about it anyway, so you improvise and move on. When your wizard or arcanist lacks a spell, you feel foolish. But with an arcanist, that feeling will happen more often: Where a wizard might have one each of fireball and lightning bolt and a arcanist has fireball prepared instead, the arcanist is more likely to be surprised by fire-immune enemies or a battlefield where a line is more useful than a circle.


MrSin wrote:
I really don't know how to comment on the arcanist. I love this kind of prepared spontaneousity, but having ultimate arcane power and potential is pretty powerful and at the moment the class itself looks a little bare and boring outside of spellcasting. That might just be me though. If it matters, the spell casting looks more fun than wizards and less punishing than sorcerers.

Try playing with it. My initial reaction was to suspect it was probably a bit over the top, but once I built around a couple times I didn't really see it as any stronger than existing options. Build one like it was going into a campaign you are currently in as the replacement for your character and examine what you lose relative to what you had.

I'd probably play the crap out of the arcanist, but that's mostly because I really like the flavor involved with wizard / sorcerer crossovers: I prefer spontaneous casting but love to look for lore and collect spellbooks.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Peter Stewart wrote:
I'd probably play the crap out of the arcanist, but that's mostly because I really like the flavor involved with wizard / sorcerer crossovers: I prefer spontaneous casting but love to look for lore and collect spellbooks.

I'm thinking of an arcanist as a person with a sorcerous bloodline but without the Chr score to make it work. But they do have a good Int and got admitted to the wizarding college down the road...


Ilorin Lorati wrote:
Did you use the Sorcerer alternative favored class bonus for human? Because I honestly don't consider that to be a fair comparison since they don't exist for Arcanist yet.

I did indeed, and I suspect it will remain sorcerer only and will not translate to the arcanist (who I anticipate will instead receive the wizard favorite class option of an extra spell for their spellbook or perhaps additional blood focus uses). If it does turn into an arcanist favorite class option then perhaps I'd be more willing to discuss how it is unbalanced. :)

For now I think it's the best thing that ever happened to spontaneous casters like the oracle and sorcerer, since it provides an outlet for the generalist style of play (while things like the Kitsune provide an outlet for highly specialized styles of play).


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ross Byers wrote:
I'm thinking of an arcanist as a person with a sorcerous bloodline but without the Chr score to make it work. But they do have a good Int and got admitted to the wizarding college down the road...

Doesn't that already exist, though? What is the Sage Wild Bloodline for, in comparison?

Grand Lodge

This may have been reported, dont know. Table 1-1 has spells per day out of order. 4 and 5 have been swapped.


Ross Byers wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
I'd probably play the crap out of the arcanist, but that's mostly because I really like the flavor involved with wizard / sorcerer crossovers: I prefer spontaneous casting but love to look for lore and collect spellbooks.
I'm thinking of an arcanist as a person with a sorcerous bloodline but without the Chr score to make it work. But they do have a good Int and got admitted to the wizarding college down the road...

Two of my last five characters have blended sorcerer and wizard. One was someone with innate talent brought in by a group that trained him as a wizard. The other was a wizard who's magic I always explained as being the product of memorizing spells and imprinting them over her existing (sorcerer-like) powers. She later took a couple levels of sorcerer. My GM and I are in talks to rebuild her as an arcanist.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Ilorin Lorati wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
I'm thinking of an arcanist as a person with a sorcerous bloodline but without the Chr score to make it work. But they do have a good Int and got admitted to the wizarding college down the road...
Doesn't that already exist, though? What is the Sage Wild Bloodline for, in comparison?

Sort of. Sages still don't have a spellbook. Also, they have a very specific bloodline, while an arcanist can have a spark of dragon, demon, or elements in their heritage.


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Hooray, we finally have the arcane Spirit Shaman I've been hoping for since, oh, Complete Divine came out.

Point 1: Arcanist vs Wizard. The arcanist has a bit more during the encounter versatility, but it's important to remember that the Wizard still has a greater breadth of options available. The Arcanist will only have between 3-5 options of his highest 2 spell levels available at any one time. The Wizard can have a number of different options equal to the number of spells he can prepare. Different, but both equally valuable.

Point 2: Blood magic is boring. +1 CL and +1 DC for your school spell? Rounds per day of a bloodline ability? Yawn. How about:
- being able to prepare your bloodline ability as a spell, which you can then cast?
- Or magical school bloodlines as an option?
- Or maybe you don't have any blood power to start, but casting the spells associated with your bloodline gives you blood power? The more you cast, the more your heritage awakens. Maybe tie it to a school rather than just the bloodline spells, to connect the fluff together better.

In general, most of the classes from this playtest are pretty safe. I wanted to see them get a little edgier, especially since we're 5 years out from release.


ErrantX wrote:

However, as a veteran player and DM with over 25 years of play experience I can safely say that if I sat down and played an arcanist in a party with people, I would be able to do whatever it was I wanted regardless of the DM's whim or not.

You may not like the Tier System, but ignoring that it exists makes for bad products with poorly implemented systems that will wreak havoc with your game. Not just between players with power disparity, but with the CR system as monsters will have to be stronger to keep up with classes like this.

Heh. That's funny.

I ignore the tier system on a regular basis, acknowledging it only for internet arguments where I hold it to be a shortsighted and clumsy attempt to explain the game. I'm glad the Paizo designers consider it to be a lot of drek.

The arcanist I would allow freely into my games. It doesn't threaten my world. I like the different but similar feel it has to the existing arcane casters. Neatly bridges the gap in a way the ultimate magus from 3.0 never really did.

Dark Archive

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As a way to be an Ultimate Magus from level 1 I appreciate this class. But I am concerned that its "spells prepared" are not truly a limiting factor for it. As it is now, because it combines the versatility of the wizard (can have the right answer ready within 24 hours) with the flexibility of the sorcerer (does not have to predict in advance how many copies of that answer it will need in a day), I think it easily overshadows the sorcerer, and that's a problem.

I would limit it's spells/day drastically, perhaps even a ceiling as low as 3/level/day + bonus slots. Then, the sorcerer retains its niche of "if you know what you want, you can spam it a lot" and the wizard retains its niche of "if you don't know what you want, you can probably find it in one night, but you have to micromanage a bit." And then this guy can occupy a third rung - "if you think you know what you want, and how many of it, but you like to have a backup plan in case you're mistaken, this guy is for you."


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This is a class so powerful it makes Sorcerers (and maybe Wizards too) seem like puny weaklings. It's almost funny how overpowered this class is. And spontaneous-casting Wizard who can increase the CL and DC of his spells. It's supposed disadvantages are all but irrelevant. Having no familiar and getting spells 1 level later does not come even close to balancing its absurd versatility and RAW power.

I know balance is secondary priority at best, but the Arcanist screws it so badly that I'm can't imagine the game not suffering because of it. Hell, even the illusion of balance is broken. One look at the Arcanist and even a new player can see how much better than Sorcerers (and maybe Wizards too) it is.

I'm a very liberal GM and don't usually mind players using powerful combos and spells. Those who play with me know that I most often allow all sorts of powerful stuff in my games. Classes, feats, spells... Whatever.

I have no problem dealing with TWF Gunslingers, Synthesist Summoners, God Wizards, or any other of those things so often called "overpowered".

Even so, the Arcanist as it is has the dubious honor of being the first and only class that made me think two things I never thought about any other class in the game: "I wish they hadn't created this" and "This is definitely banned in every game I GM".

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I really like the look of the arcanist -- it's a class I can see myself playing fairly often.

A couple of suggestions though:

I'd rather have the Bloodline Arcana than such a limited use of Bloodline Powers. It also seems more in flavor with the prepared/spontaneous crossover.

As someone else suggested, I like the idea of one Vancian slot per level specifically for a spell of the arcanists specialty school.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Some of my observations:

-The prep/spontaneous caster mix is crazy powerful. Something else might have to be done to balance it.

-Blood Focus is a bit weird. I like the idea of choosing a school and a bloodline. The problem is that the sorcerer end comes out a little weak.

-For some reason Scribe Scroll seems out of place. I wouldn't count on it lasting.

-The fatigued penalty for exhausting Blood Focus isn't right. Name another class in the game that does this other than barbarian rage.

Some solutions:
-Remove the spontaneous casting element. It's too powerful, let them cast spells like a wizard with maybe the spell progression of the sorcerer. They could give them wizard progression with the spellbook as well, in comparison to the wizard they would lose arcane bond and school powers to compensate for the additional abilities.

-Blood focus should be Charisma based, otherwise what exactly is the sorcerer part? Instead of the dc/lv casting bonus maybe grant school powers like the bloodline powers in respect to number of times a day. Also, a lot of bloodline powers don't seem to fit the idea, what about familiars. One solution would be to do what was done for the Bloodrager and give them different bloodline abilities based on bloodline.

-Some solutions might be found in the elven Spellbinder archetype.


Prince of Knives wrote:
So, did no one realize, during the design process here, that baseline Arcanist completely invalidates the baseline Wizard? I mean, archetypes notwithstanding here there is now 0% reason to play a Wizard ever, and Wizard is (sorry, was) the unrivaled pinnacle of power in 3.PF.

I kinda agree with this. I was never really sold on Sorcerer and Wizard being meaningfully different in 3.5; PF helped this a little with the whole bloodline focus. But this class is too much of a pure Sorc/Wiz mashup, so a combination of two things already pretty the same. Seems to me they're all the same class with some different options chosen in terms of spells per day vs slots.

This would be better if it didn't use the sorc bloodlines per se but had something else to it, so it wasn't just the middle ground between two already close things. It's powerful but boring and has nothing unique to it.

I do like it from a "thinking about PF 2.0" perspective, where both sorc and wizard may as well be replaced by this class and then have specialist wiz and bloodline-freak wiz as archetypes.


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I'm a lover of spontaneous casting, but really love the flavor of a wizard, so this is the full caster for me! My last character was a Cleric and I had so many unused spells at the end of the day, it drove me nuts!

I like the idea I can realize preparing haste today was a waste since the cleric has divine power, the rogue got a speed weapon and the fighter has boots of speed, and instead cast another heroism, fireball or fly!

When I play an arcane caster next, this is it.


Debates about the Arcanist's strength aside, over all they seem pretty boring to play. There's not many additional powers for them to gain, and it doesn't even look like there may be any favored class bonuses that give extra spells or the like to them.

Is there anything that can be done to change blood focus? Adding +1 to caster level and DC again seems kind of standard. It's pretty easy to get to DC's that are 20+ by level 4, so adding one to that total doesn't have that much impact.

What about the ability to gain the use of a discovery at a certain level with that power instead?


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This is overpowered. Terribly, terribly overpowered.
The casting system might be workable, but the number of spells prepared per day needs to be reduced significantly. Check out the spirit shaman in 3.5 for a reasonably balanced option. Of course, the spirit shaman was only casting off the druid list and dropped a lot of really powerful class features while the arcanist casts off the wizard list and barely has any class features worth dropping...

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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After reading through this, I thought that it provided a good mix of wizard and sorcerer spellcasting, but was very dry and boring. Really you're like an arcane caster with the serial number filed off, no familiar, no school specialty powers, minimal bloodline powers, and bonus feats.

Speaking of the bonus feats, is there a reason that they cant be used for the bonus feats associated with your bloodline? That would add a bit more flexibility to the class and make their feat selection seem a bit less like any other wizard.


Saidoro wrote:

This is overpowered. Terribly, terribly overpowered.

The casting system might be workable, but the number of spells prepared per day needs to be reduced significantly. Check out the spirit shaman in 3.5 for a reasonably balanced option. Of course, the spirit shaman was only casting off the druid list and dropped a lot of really powerful class features while the arcanist casts off the wizard list and barely has any class features worth dropping...

I'm not sure if reducing the number of spells would be a great fix. Reducing the number of spell slots or spells known has never been the best fix for a class I though. If the spells were overpowered in the first place, the reducing the number won't change that and it just forces the player to maybe sit out more often.

Spirit shaman was a little poor I always thought.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
JoelF847 wrote:
Speaking of the bonus feats, is there a reason that they cant be used for the bonus feats associated with your bloodline? That would add a bit more flexibility to the class and make their feat selection seem a bit less like any other wizard.

+1

I knew there was something I'd forgotten in my other suggestions.


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To Ernest Mueller, Soluzar, Lemmy, Psyren, Saidoro and everyone else predicting the end of the world - your arguments would be more persuasive if they were backed up by either of the following.

(most convincingly)
1. Playtest results. Tell us specifically how they ended the world in your game. What specific combination of available spells. What opportunity to reprepare. Tell us what level you were playing at, what your point buy was, what wealth was, what the party composition was, and what adventure you were running through. Were there other arcane casters? Were they overshadowed? Tell us how your group usually plays. Are you casual gamers? High level optimizers? Somewhere in-between the two? Be as highly detailed and specific as you possibly can. . Keep in mind that the game is not designed around high level optimization.

(less convincingly)
2. Demonstrative examples of how an arcanist matches up against a wizard or sorcerer (as I provided) in terms of spells available and other options. Right now I haven't seen anything offered except supposition. I see no response to concrete examples even in the theoretical sense.

Continuing to yell that they are broken based entirely on theory craft is not convincing to anyone and not productive in the conversation. At present the worst I can see is a slightly higher probably than a wizard of having a needed spell that the wizard only prepared once and already cast or the potential that a highly specific spell is needed and the arcanist knew exactly what it was going in compared to a sorcerer.

Both of these seem sort of like outside hedges, and neither seems likely to be game breaking on nearly the level suggested by some.


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This class seems very cool. I like the concept, and I like the fluff. The ideas are solid.

But seriously.

I obviously haven't got a chance to play it yet, but just reading through, this class seems WAY overpowered. Wizards are praised (or hated) for their versatility; given time, a wizard can prepare exactly the spells that he requires to defeat virtually any enemy. This class has access to those multitudes of spells, AND added spontaneity; the only drawback--time--is almost completely removed. And there is only one stat that this class needs to focus on: Intelligence. Just put everything possible into that, and copy down as many spells as possible, and you're a god. I'm not saying that all players will do this, but the potential it has for powergamers, or even just mild optimizers, is enormous.

Again, I like the idea, but I really hope this gets toned down during the beta. The drawbacks of both sorcerer and wizard have been lost, and that almost seems to be the whole point of this class as it is. But it has as many spells known as a wizard (unlimited), more spells per day, the versatility of a mix-and-match bloodline/school combination, no banned schools, the ability to apply metamagic upon preparation OR on the spot, and that School Supremacy gem that no one else has anything even similar to, and, with the ability to add Silent Spell at will, ANY spell can be cast while grappled.


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MrSin wrote:
Saidoro wrote:

This is overpowered. Terribly, terribly overpowered.

The casting system might be workable, but the number of spells prepared per day needs to be reduced significantly. Check out the spirit shaman in 3.5 for a reasonably balanced option. Of course, the spirit shaman was only casting off the druid list and dropped a lot of really powerful class features while the arcanist casts off the wizard list and barely has any class features worth dropping...

I'm not sure if reducing the number of spells would be a great fix. Reducing the number of spell slots or spells known has never been the best fix for a class I though. If the spells were overpowered in the first place, the reducing the number won't change that and it just forces the player to maybe sit out more often.

Spirit shaman was a little poor I always thought.

I agree. This class should have been a Sorcerer with a few vancian spell slots and less spells per day, not a Wizard with even more flexibility!

This class obsoletes Sorcerers (and at high level, Wizards) even more than Archaeologist Bards obsoletes Rogues. Except instead of overshadowing which is considered by many one of the weakest classes of the game, it completely overshadows two of the most powerful ones!

Does the Arcanist have all the features of of is alternate classes? Nope? Does it matter? No. It has something infinitely better.


Seems quite good from what I can see. I think the bloodline power interaction is going to end up being VERY limited in actual use though. There are not many bloodline powers that a straight Sorc really needs. They often get used simply because they are there. Bloodline Arcana is usually the guiding force behind the choice.

My guess would be that the +1 CL/+1 DC is going to be the most common usee of this ablity. Which makes the other end of it, which seems far clunkier to begin with, a little bit unnecessary.

Sure, there are good powers, and you might see some aberrant reach stuff come up.

Anyway... this one is going to take some serious testing. It feels like the ability to prep your "spells known" each day will be huge. The other stuff is no big deal either way.


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Well obviously this class is absurdly broken. No doubt about that. It's definitely better than the sorcerer for most things you'd do with the class. (Except flavor. The arcanist is very bland.) I'm not sure if it's more powerful than the wizard. On the other hand, the wizard is already overpowered compared to most of the other classes, so it seems like the imbalance goes beyond the arcanist. I think making this class balanced with the other classes would require changes far beyond the class.

For feedback more specific to the class, there doesn't seem much point to not jump over to a prestige class at first opportunity. You give up some sparse bonus feats and get fewer uses per day of the +1 CL/+1 DC ability, but that's about it. You wouldn't get the extra spells known from your bloodline. However, since most bloodlines give you spells already on your spell list, that's not a big deal for a class with a spellbook. The bloodline power ability doesn't seem too useful either. Since you don't get it as long as sorcerers do, it's probably not worth a standard action in combat to use. Especially if it cuts into your +1 CL/+1 DC uses.

Is the ruling still that racial SLAs count for prestige class prerequisites? I feel like Arcanist 1/Shaman 4/Mystic Theurge X would be a really powerful combination. And you get to be a wizardsorcereroraclewitch! :D

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

FWIW:

Quote:

Cantrips: Arcanists can prepare a number of cantrips, or

0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table 1–1. These spells
are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume slots
and may be used again.

Should be Table 1-2.


Personally I don't see the Preped Spells for Spontaneous casting to be an issue.

I do think Blood Focus is going to need work. As it stands I can see the +1 CL/DC being the main use and the Bloodline abilities being all but forgotten about. Not only that but for some of the Bloodline powers it looks like it could be pretty clunky to use. I'd probably just Grab Eldritch Bloodline feats to get those powers and use Blood Focus for the caster bonus. It gets rid of the clunkiness with the uses per day vs. Focus points and gives me the permanent powers as permanents instead of a round/level. Sure it eats up 3 or 4 feats but I've got 3 bonus feats to make up for the loss.

But that's just theory crafting right now, main point of course is going to see how it plays out in actual practice


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Hm, maybe it would be more balanced if it had to rely on two different stats for casting. Maybe INT as the default casting stat (used for determining bonus spells, concentration checks, highest level spell castable), but charisma for spell DCs, and class features.


The only thing that needs to change, as far as I can tell, is a rewrite of Blood Focus to be less clunky. Right now it is all kinds of weird with various bloodlines. Take Arcane for instance, who could theoretically gain access to free spells with each use, or gain a familiar for a few seconds. Very unpolished mechanic that could probably be cleaned up significantly.

I understand the intention is probably primarily to give access to the 1st level bloodline power at low levels, but right now it just doesn't work. You'd probably be better off just handing over a 1st level bloodline power in its entirety.


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Peter Stewart wrote:
To Ernest Mueller, Soluzar, Lemmy, Psyren, Saidoro and everyone else predicting the end of the world -

You clearly didn't read my post at least, are you just rounding up everyone else who posts in the thread and deciding you're calling them out? Thanks for being the self proclaimed thread controller but I'll opt out of that, thanks.


Well, this looks like it needs a lot of play testing. It's either really good or amazing it seems.

I vote we all take it easy until we've actually played it some. I'll be playing one thursday and possibly GMing one Saturday.


No offense but TL,DR-

Because I have one question that applies to the arcanist and to the other Advanced Classes (bloodrager not included) who have a "pool" of talent -

Why does the Arcanist gain the fatigued condition when she has expended all her blood focus, while the Swashbuckler isn't in the same spot when she expends all her panache?

Or better yet, why can't an arcanist recover blood focus when a gunslinger can recover grit? Isn't one more inherently 'mystic' than the other?

I understand the mechanics tied to the bloodrager- barbarian rage, so a good balance. I understand the meta-match between the swashbuckler's panache and the gunslinger's grit, but where is the precedent for an arcane caster to gain the fatigued condition for doing what it is they do?

A fatigued Arcanist is a woe to her party. A harsh penalty for a paltry ability, especially when other classes take no penalty for pool abilities. Why can't an arcanist regain blood focus points/ki/pools/etc?


No one has brought up the best new part of this class yet, at least to me. Being able to memorize metamagic, add metamagic as I cast, or combine both is a fantastic option and the best of both worlds.

The blood focus seems very clunky and 90% of the time its just going to be +1 CL and DC.

Edit: Also would like to know if my bound object from Arcane bloodline just *poofs* into the game when/if I use Blood Focus?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

First, let me say that the Arcanist appears to be fairly well balanced by the numbers, that the spell preparation mechanic is a nice compromise between the sorcerer and wizard styles, and Intelligence seems like the correct ability score to use. Now, on to some questions and criticisms.

The name "arcanist": isn't this word already frequently used for arcane casters in general? Just a nitpick. Maybe there's not a better name, but if there is, I would probably prefer it.

Mechanical issues: Blood focus is an interesting, but it applies to a lot of class features that weren't written with it in mind. For instance, what if I choose the Arcane bloodline? Can I use Arcane Bond to gain a familiar for rounds/level, or a bonded object? Can I do each, separately, in the same day? Can I do both at the same time by summoning one at a time? Further, some of the features are written with the sorcerer or wizard specifically in mind. The bonded object for Arcane Bloodline specifies that it grants one bonus spell from those known, not one from the spellbook (like a Wizard), but the latter would actually be useful to the arcanist. It seems like more specificity would be useful, or maybe the existing abilities need to be reviewed if something needs to be adjusted about certain kinds of abilities.

Flavor issues: This class consists mostly of numerical bonuses and metamagics. Apart from the bloodlines, which it gets from being half sorcerer, there is nothing new here. I would strongly consider playing a wizard and taking the Eldritch Heritage feats over this class. It also uses slightly complicated bookkeeping to keep from overstepping each alternate class, especially with uses per day. The whole class could be replaced by wizard spells that roughly duplicate some of the desired bloodline powers. A wizard archetype that replaced bonus feats with some sorcerer powers would be simpler. Apart from the happiness of a blood focus (evocation/elemental fire) blaster, I don't see a lot of improvement over existing options. I think overall it needs to either be simpler or more exciting.

In keeping with the arcane theme, why not build arcane bond into the class? Maybe familiars could gain some bloodline powers. Maybe bonded objects could gain some bloodline related bennies.

Since they are masters of the magic in their own blood, what about some kind of feat or class option to blend in a secondary bloodline? If I could have an Infernal familiar with a mixture of Infernal and Elemental Fire powers through my blood focus, that begins to get interesting.

Dark Archive

So I see a lot of people saying this class is unbalanced... but really you have less spells readily available at any time than a sorcerer (both known and per day) so it is at least somewhere imbetween. Anything it can do a wizard or sorcerer can already do and one does pretty much any single thing better.

No more broken than wizard or sorcerer is at the least.

Main problem I have with it are the details, the blood focus feels bland. I feel like if he just got bloodline powers it would be bettermay be at a delayed progression or something.

May be for the wizard side get to chose one spell from the focus school that you always know or something, but get to change each level up.


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This class seems so very, very redundant?

I get that the casting is halfway between prepared and spontaneous, but did we really need that?

I won't consider playing it most of the time because of being permanently a spell level behind a Wizard, so unless its meant to be a prepared caster for when DMs want to ban wizards for being too good it seems to need a lot more interesting flavor to compete with Sorc.

Dark Archive

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It looks a little strong to me.

This only applies to optimized PCs, however.

For enemy boss fights it is weaker than both Sorc and Wiz, having fewer spells and no option to change them, no bloodline powers.

For new or inexperienced players, it will likely be played as a Sorc with fewer spells and no bloodline.

It is my least favourite out of the 10 new classes.


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It's got less lasting power than the sorcerer and the specialist wizard (I pretty much assume that basically nobody goes generalist anymore) and most of the flexibility advantage it has can be negated by a decent batman wizard build.

I could see it being a wholesale replacement of the sorcerer and the wizard but I'm not sure I see a compelling reason to have all three in a setting simultaneously.

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