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I've been following the thread for a time and once I got past the idea that you were not after homebrew fixes, I liked the challenge.
For one thing, I think you need to look at just the core book to determine if rogues can work. Secondly, you need to see if rogues can work at every level and for most races.
My opinion is that the rogue can work fine but needs a lot of effort on the part of the player to pull it off well. The player has to really think like a rogue by pulling on every advantage and really thinking ahead. Also, the rogue needs to pick a specialty or two and work with it.
The challenge is then to show rogues of various levels and race combinations that work in some fashion and would be fun to play using the core book only. If you can't do that, the rogue needs some fixing.
This build is not the best but I'll give it a try.
Halfling rogue lvl 1
Weapons: longspear, dagger, light crossbow, tanglefoot bag
Armor: studded leather
Feat: Skill focus - stealth
Skills: acrobatics, Climb, Diplomacy, disable device, Escape artist, perception, Sleight of hand, stealth, use magic device
Str 10
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 12
Cha 12
Tactics (without this, the rogue suffers): Avoid detection at all costs, Use longspear in melee if possible and fight defensively if allies are unavailable and run at first opportunity. Use ranged attacks first by always carrying a dagger in hand or light crossbow if trouble is expected. Climb to a safe position and snipe if possible.
Rough, I know but this is how the rogue has to be approached. If thrown into an arena, they do not do well and that's why they should never let that happen. This is my contribution.
What are you going to do with that longs pear in combat with a 10 Str?
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Bigdaddyjug wrote: What are you going to do with that longs pear in combat with a 10 Str? Have reach.
TOZ wrote: Bigdaddyjug wrote: What are you going to do with that longs pear in combat with a 10 Str? Have reach. Yeah, but he won't be able to hit anything unless I'm missing something and the longspear is a finessable weapon.
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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Bigdaddyjug wrote: Yeah, but he won't be able to hit anything... I'm assuming you mean hitting consistently. Because he will roll high on his attack roll, and not every enemy at 1st level has a 20 AC. Often, it's much lower than that.
TriOmegaZero wrote: Bigdaddyjug wrote: Yeah, but he won't be able to hit anything... I'm assuming you mean hitting consistently. Because he will roll high on his attack roll, and not every enemy at 1st level has a 20 AC. Often, it's much lower than that. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Yes level 1 enemies don't have 20 AC, but they have 15 AC or so. With 0 BAB and 0 attack bonus from Str, he would only be hitting about 30% of the time.
Mattastrophic wrote: Nicos wrote: You forgot quick dirty trick. Besides, is the CMB really good? or, does you need to sacrifice to much in AC, saves, hit points to make this trick workable? Did I miss something? A Maneuver Master doesn't need Quick Dirty Trick, am I correct?
If you stack on attack modifiers, all of which apply to CMB, and also stack on the following CMB modifiers, you can get your CMB pretty high..
-Improved (Maneuver) feat for +2
-Greater (Maneuver) feat for another +2 later
-Gauntlets of the skilled maneuver: +2 to a maneuver, 4K
-Dusty rose prism slotted in a wayfinder: +2 to CMB, 5500gp
The +6-+8 from that list alone can make your CMB sufficient, and they're very cheap for what they do.
-Matt You are correctabout the Mauever master, I , bythe otherhand, doubt about the CMB even with those items.
For example, at level 10 we will have something like
+7 (BAB) + 7 dex + 2 gauntlets + 2 feat + 2 ioun stone -2 flurry =+18
wich is pretty low.
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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Bigdaddyjug wrote: Yes level 1 enemies don't have 20 AC, but they have 15 AC or so. With 0 BAB and 0 attack bonus from Str, he would only be hitting about 30% of the time. How does that change when the rogue is striking from stealth? From flanking? Against a prone target?
eggplantman is intending to survive 1st level by using tactical positioning and actions to increase his attack bonus. Having reach gives him more maneuverability when flanking.
Quote: I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. I get that a lot.
after playing around with my monk/ninja (who doesnt use invisibility) im really likeing this stealth is stealth build. i used him as both an npc and as a sub character at levels 5-10 and i have to admit he is bad ass, made me appreciate rogues all over again.
hellcat stealth + brilliant energy fists... can we say stupid broken?
Nicos wrote: You are correctabout the Mauever master, I , bythe otherhand, doubt about the CMB even with those items.
For example, at level 10 we will have something like
+7 (BAB) + 7 dex + 2 gauntlets + 2 feat + 2 ioun stone -2 flurry =+18
wich is pretty low.
A modifier of +8 over your character level is pretty good, especially considering that +10 is a good benchmark to aspire to. Especially when, in practice, you don't stop at Improved (Maneuver), gauntlets of the skilled maneuver, and a dusty rose prism. Keep in mind that anything else which adds to attack rolls adds to CMB, like heroism, haste, flanking, etc etc etc.
Heck, +8 over character level is quite good for having invested so so little in your primary attack trick! That's even with skipping Greater (Maneuver)! Dang, is it easy to boost CMB in this game.
-Matt
That's the part I hate, keeping track of which random buffs I have up apply to CMB and CMD.
Mattastrophic wrote: Nicos wrote: You are correctabout the Mauever master, I , bythe otherhand, doubt about the CMB even with those items.
For example, at level 10 we will have something like
+7 (BAB) + 7 dex + 2 gauntlets + 2 feat + 2 ioun stone -2 flurry =+18
wich is pretty low.
A modifier of +8 over your character level is pretty good, especially considering that +10 is a good benchmark to aspire to. Especially when, in practice, you don't stop at Improved (Maneuver), gauntlets of the skilled maneuver, and a dusty rose prism. Keep in mind that anything else which adds to attack rolls adds to CMB, like heroism, haste, flanking, etc etc etc.
Heck, +8 over character level is quite good for having invested so so little in your primary attack trick! That's even with skipping Greater (Maneuver)! Dang, is it easy to boost CMB in this game.
-Matt I disagree.
I would like to see the 10 th level build,I would think it woudl end pretty weak. particularly for the dirty trick +18 is somewhat low. The CMD of the monster at this point it is probably in the 30+.
TOZ wrote: That's the part I hate, keeping track of which random buffs I have up apply to CMB and CMD. Which is the primary reason I like Hero Lab. Yes I know it has its faults, but it really helps in keeping track of buffs.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Amen. *places offering on the Hero Lab altar*
TOZ wrote: That's the part I hate, keeping track of which random buffs I have up apply to CMB and CMD. Yeah, it's pain having to keep track of AC, Touch AC, and CMD, as well as their flat-footed variants. But stacking-confusion, that's a system problem, something I hope Paizo addresses in Second Edition.
Fortunately, keeping track of CMB is much easier, because everything that adds to attack rolls also adds to CMB.
As a side-note... it's been my experience, when seeing players use HeroLab at the table, that HeroLab manages to somehow screw up every character in some way. It's uncanny. That doesn't sit well with me.
Then there's also the issue of people who use HeroLab but don't know what they've built. I really dislike having to explain a person's PC to them, but that's a player-laziness issue and not a HeroLab one.
-Matt
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Although you have to differentiate between what bonuses apply to which attack and remember all the penalties that might also factor in.
I seem to recall stat adjustments being a headache when last we gamed.
TriOmegaZero wrote: Although you have to differentiate between what bonuses apply to which attack and remember all the penalties that might also factor in.
I seem to recall stat adjustments being a headache when last we gamed.
Oh goodness, I remember now. Ugh. Speaking of...
I'm going to take a moment to testify to the usefulness of...
index cards.
Man, oh man, well-made index cards, with big letters and full explanations of bonus types and stacking interactions, are a wonderful play aid.
Index cards. They can save your life.
-Matt
I can attest, a level 1 longspear rogue works. Ours had 16 str though (for meaty goblin killing damage).
He got some good kills, nice sneak attacks. Alas we had a crap dm who insisted on sundering his weapon twice. Guess he was jealous of a good thing.
Mattastrophic wrote: TOZ wrote: That's the part I hate, keeping track of which random buffs I have up apply to CMB and CMD. Yeah, it's pain having to keep track of AC, Touch AC, and CMD, as well as their flat-footed variants. But stacking-confusion, that's a system problem, something I hope Paizo addresses in Second Edition.
Fortunately, keeping track of CMB is much easier, because everything that adds to attack rolls also adds to CMB.
As a side-note... it's been my experience, when seeing players use HeroLab at the table, that HeroLab manages to somehow screw up every character in some way. It's uncanny. That doesn't sit well with me.
Then there's also the issue of people who use HeroLab but don't know what they've built. I really dislike having to explain a person's PC to them, but that's a player-laziness issue and not a HeroLab one.
-Matt I assure you that any issues with Hero Lab were a case of either operator error or GIGO. Yes the program has bugs, but they get caught and fixed very quickly. However, it's really easy to screw up your input and get wonky results.
If you're playing a rogue and use your wayfinder for a +2 CMB bonus instead of protecting your horrid will save with immunity against evil charms/compulsions/domination, you deserve what's going to happen to you! :)
==Aelryinth
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I'm not sure if anyone is still following this, but I've finally caught up with the backlog of this thread which I’ve been reading with a great deal of interest, as my best (and first) PFS character is a lv 9. Disarm/Catch Off Guard vanilla rogue who fights with a masterwork umbrella, and I've been surprisingly successful. It seems a large part of the discussion has centered upon what role the rogue can fill which cannot be done better by another class. I think I can at least contribute an idea for the discussion.
The rogue is the melee equivalent of the controller wizard.
Hear me out before you lynch me. The “Batman wizards” designed by my Pathfinder betters contribute to a party through battlefield control, debuffing, divination and tactical support, and utility. A successful rogue can do all of this, in addition to casually optimizing sneak attacks, in order to fill a role that another character could not manage without sacrificing a significant portion of their own class’s power. My backstab at the 10ish Control Rogue commandments is as follows.
I. Sneak Attack Isn’t Actually the Main Goal: We’ve established, the rogue isn’t naturally a DPS powerhouse. What SA does best is assure minor DPS scaling so the rogue can focus precious resources on other concerns without utterly falling off the damage curve (Imagine a Dex/Wis monk, if you're having trouble visualizing the problem SA preemptively solves.)
II. Thus Spec For Debuff and Control: Do you have a wizard in your party? I bet (s)he'd love the -4 save penalty that comes from the common sickened+shaken Thug/Enforcer combo. How about a fighter, ranger, or some(any)one else who does combat better than you? I'm sure they won't complain if disarm the enemy, ruin their day with a dirty trick, and then give a flanking bonus to contribute with SA.
III. To-Hit and CMB Are Your New Gods: You know who does damage? Those guys in the party you've convinced to do your dirty work. All you need to do is toss sand in someone's eyes, kick them squarely in the genitals (no mean feat if you're fighting pixies) and strike a pose while standing somewhere helpful. Boom. Contribution. A Thug Enforcer has just laid down an 8th Lv Witch's Evil Eye(or disarmed/entangled/etc), done a little damage, AND distracted the enemy so a big guy can flank him. Mal Reynolds would be proud.
IV. Don't Die: Really, this should be second nature to rogues. Even the heroic ones in media doing stupid things have either a backup plan or enough panache to offer concealment bonuses. You're in the thick of things controlling combat, like a conductor with a death wish. In order to do your job properly, you need to die, and in order to not be left naked and bound over an anthill, you need to not waste party resources protecting your prima ballerina self. Weapon Finesse covers AC and to hit in one stat and is a Talent. Done. Offensive Defense? Pretty good. Fast Getaway Talent while screaming "Not in the face"? Pure gold on a scout. Shield Wand in wrist sheathe? You have UMD and go first, don't you?
V/VI Have UMD and Go First (Addressed in no particular order): You have Use Magic Device because you haven't dumped Charisma, because I assume anyone with the pure swag to play a rogue has thought this through. (If not, rectify this immediately.) Now put it to use. Now put it to use. You want Gust of Wind, Daylight, Silence, See Invis, and any spell that primary casters are "too cool" to constantly have and/or that might be conceivably useful. Essentially, you are a full, prepared caster, in that you are fully prepared to assess any situation, shrug, and say, "I got this,"(free action) while producing the perfect scroll from your Handy Haversack(TM) before the bad guts can react. Possibly even during your enemies' surprise round, which some control rogues can totally do because they'll have to dip.
VII Optimized Rogues Dip (But Not Where You Think): Yes, full BAB classes are grand for people with low expectations of rogues or specific build ideas. Yes, very clever people have mentioned a Maneuver Master Monk dip for sap builds, and you can build a Bluff-That There-Is-A-God DPS rogue with this. However it's not the only option. Divination Wizard (Scryer) 1 is an amazing rogue dip. It must be, because why else would I personally use it? For the price of admission, you get True Strike as a school spell (Works in armor and guarantees that clutch hit or maneuver you'll occasionally need), a Will Save buff (which you would otherwise blow a feat on), a familiar (free alertness AND Improved Initiative, Skill Focus, or a save boosting feat. Again. also a second skill check.) free access to a Wizard's lv 1 spells i.e. a rogue's playground (Grease, Obscuring Mist, Silent Image, Sculpt Freaking Corpse. If you can't find places to roguishly use these, you're dead to me.), the ability to scout via precognition and scrying sensors through cracks in doors, mail slots, whatever, and, of course a free ranged touch attack (Acid Splash) which you can use to catch enemies flat-footed (even during THEIR surprise rounds) because, hey, you're a freaking diviner and surprise rounds mean nothing. Of course, no one ever shocks your character at Christmas, but role-playing downsides here too, people. [N.B. This is better in Society play or with accommodating GMs, where Scribe Scroll is traded for Spell Focus. Thus for the price of a trait, (Magical Knack) and Spell Spec: Conj, you can have the spell Snowball deal 5d6+SA when people are flat footed. Hell, that's a sorcerer-grade blast with which to open combat. If you have a pair of brass, err... spellbooks, you might even be able to initially convince dim enemies you're a squishy mage with poor spatial awareness.} Also, Sohei well for a combination between punching people into unconsciousness, and spidey sense, although Maneuver Master is probably still better.
VIII Really Thought I'd Run Out of Points Around Now.(But Seriously, Skills): 8 Per Lv isn't enough. There I said it. You're not dumping INT for STR, because again I'm pretending to have a modicum of respect for you, hypothetical reader. But what does that leave you with? Well, UMD is claimed until you can regularly hit DCs, Acrobatics is needed for a flanker, Diplomacy can get more information than Charm Person and Divination combined if you ask the right people with the right bribes. Just take bluff and trust me, I write ironically. And perception. That's kind of your assumed job, finding traps and all. That's 5 before Sense Motive, Appraise, some knowledges so you aren't flying blind, Linguistics for forgery (more useful than you'd think, free languages notwithstanding) + Style skills. Sure, some classes do some skills as well or better, but you do all of them, with no real investment, and a second roll is always very good.
IX Stuff To Buy, Archetypes, and Build Trees to Consider: Obviously masterwork thieves' tools and smokesticks are on the list. The rest I freely compile deriving while standing on the shoulders of the giants in this thread. Adamantine drills make impromptu peepholes and places to use your wizardly divination might. Goz Masks in smoke/fog/Obscuring Mist usually net free sneak attacks. Bane Baldric and Deliquescent Gloves give options for DPS and targeting touch AC, respectively. Bane Baldric works particularly well with improvised weapon builds using disarm and Catch Off Guard (COG). Sniper Goggles turn a surprise snowball into a special world of pain. Sword Canes work well with COG, being finessable (FAQ Update) and enchantable, ideally with agile. A Keen Rapier-of-an-exotic-metal-different-to-the-swordcane covers basic resistances. Nets are an easy way to entangle (Love you, Treantmonk), while unarmed strikes can utilize sap master and knockout artist without burning a trait on inflicting nonlethal damage, and rock with the Amulet of Many Fists. The "Stealth Beyond Stealth" builds, mentioned earlier in the thread, foil magical detection while being both utterly brilliant and a great source for additional reconnaissance, because, as we all know, knowledge is power. Enforcer feat is all but mandatory. For archetypes: Scout, Thug and Skulking Slayer are all great archetypes, easily better than vanilla rogues, but this has been explained in detail earlier.
X A good rogue always keeps a few secrets in reserve.
In conclusion, I'd argue that Rogues can be built as the ultimate switch hitters, not just changing ranges, but also for changing Normal vs. Touch AC, weapon types, and tactics as problems arise. The surplus skills and Sneak Attack maintain basic damage and allow you to keep things like UMD and buying to-hit items. For example, bards don't get to buff, hit, debuff, and do SA comparable damage on the same turn. Sure, parts of the control rogue can be accomplished, but only by sacrificing elements that the class is naturally suited for. Is it a tragedy that the best rogues depend on archetypes and dipping? Too bloody right, but there's still a role uniquely filled by a skilled melee rogue.
(P.S. The investigator playtest doesn't invalidate this idea, but if the devs carry through with the hazy, yet tantalizing comments in their forum updates, the investigator may replace sneak attack and gain mechanics for using skills in odd situations. Like a ninja, rogues will inevitably be able to use feats/archetypes for the latter abilities and will remain the utility kings of damage output-to-resources-invested.
Cheers,
Shaman Bond
Well done! Very entertaining post, Shaman Bond!
-Matt
Shaman Bond wrote: I'm not sure if anyone is still following this, but I've finally caught up with the backlog of this thread which I’ve been reading with a great deal of interest, as my best (and first) PFS character is a lv 9. Disarm/Catch Off Guard vanilla rogue who fights with a masterwork umbrella, and I've been surprisingly successful. It seems a large part of the discussion has centered upon what role the rogue can fill which cannot be done better by another class. I think I can at least contribute an idea for the discussion.
The rogue is the melee equivalent of the controller wizard.
Hear me out before you lynch me. The “Batman wizards” designed by my Pathfinder betters contribute to a party through battlefield control, debuffing, divination and tactical support, and utility. A successful rogue can do all of this, in addition to casually optimizing sneak attacks, in order to fill a role that another character could not manage without sacrificing a significant portion of their own class’s power. My backstab at the 10ish Control Rogue commandments is as follows.
I. Sneak Attack Isn’t Actually the Main Goal: We’ve established, the rogue isn’t naturally a DPS powerhouse. What SA does best is assure minor DPS scaling so the rogue can focus precious resources on other concerns without utterly falling off the damage curve (Imagine a Dex/Wis monk, if you're having trouble visualizing the problem SA preemptively solves.)
II. Thus Spec For Debuff and Control: Do you have a wizard in your party? I bet (s)he'd love the -4 save penalty that comes from the common sickened+shaken Thug/Enforcer combo. How about a fighter, ranger, or some(any)one else who does combat better than you? I'm sure they won't complain if disarm the enemy, ruin their day with a dirty trick, and then give a flanking bonus to contribute with SA.
III. To-Hit and CMB Are Your New Gods: You know who does damage? Those guys in the party you've convinced to do your dirty work. All you need to do is toss sand in...
Would you mind throwing a build up of this character? (whatever level you prefer). I really like it in theory, but the one question that comes to mind, is what is it bringing that other classes can't do better.
From what you've described the abilities your using are nothing unique to the rogue. For instance, wouldn't a ranger/alchemist/bard using the same tactics accomplish it as well but with better flexibility.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I would love to see a build that could demonstrate your point.
Shaman Bond wrote: III. To-Hit and CMB Are Your New Gods: You know who does damage? Those guys in the party you've convinced to do your dirty work. All you need to do is toss sand in someone's eyes, kick them squarely in the genitals (no mean feat if you're fighting pixies) and strike a pose while standing somewhere helpful. Boom. Contribution. A Thug Enforcer has just laid down an 8th Lv Witch's Evil Eye(or disarmed/entangled/etc), done a little damage, AND distracted the enemy so a big guy can flank him. Mal Reynolds would be proud.
IV. Don't Die: Really, this should be second nature to rogues. Even the heroic ones in media doing stupid things have either a backup plan or enough panache to offer concealment bonuses. You're in the thick of things controlling combat, like a conductor with a death wish. In order to do your job properly, you need to die, and in order to not be left naked and bound over an anthill, you need to not waste party resources protecting your prima ballerina self. Weapon Finesse covers AC and to hit in one stat and is a Talent. Done. Offensive Defense? Pretty good. Fast Getaway Talent while screaming "Not in the face"? Pure gold on a scout. Shield Wand in wrist sheathe? You have UMD and go first, don't you?
And this is what we call a logic error.
To-Hit and CMB are best provided by full BAB classes with built in bonuses: fighters and barbarians and paladins.
Not dieing is best accomplished by classes with at least d10 hit dice, better than light armor, good fortitude saves, and sundry other survivability advantages: barbarians and paladins.
If you want to do combat maneuvers the last thing you want is a rogue. Only wizards, witches, and sorcerers are worse at combat maneuvers and even they have spells that let them face full BAB for CMB purposes.
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It's not that an effective rogue is impossible, it's that building the same concept from other classes is even better.
3 < 5
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At the risk of sounding like the guy that "totally has a super-hot girlfriend in Canada," I've just lost my second Lv 5 response to you Sub Zero. But thanks to everyone who insinuated that I don't know how numbers work. Until you explained how bigger and maller numbers worked, I was positively stymied. Anyways, hopefully these brief skeleton outlines can be used as as a jumping off point for criticism until I have a little free time again. I picked lv 5 arbitrarily to see how quickly I could get the feat trees rolling.
Rudimentary Builds: Human, 20 point buy, Thug rogue for life
STR 8
DEX 19
CON 12
INT 13
WIS 12
CHA 12
Human MM Monk 1/ Thug Rogue X
Combat Relevant Gear: Deliquescent Gloves, Dusty Rose Ioun Stone in Wayfinder, Dex Belt, Shield Wand in Wrist Sheathe (Bane Baldric eventually)
MM Monk 1/ Thug Rogue X
1. Improved Unarmed Strike
1. Improved Dirty Trick
1. Enforcer
1. Weapon Finesse
2. [Rogue Thug. Nothing stunning]
3. Sap Adept
3. Minor Magic: Acid Splash
4. [Rogue Thug. Nothing stunning]
5. Major Magic: Snowball
5. Skill Focus: Stealth
Down the Pipeline: Hellcat Stealth, Sap Master, Offensive Defense
Human Scryer 1/Thug X
Combat Relevant Gear: Sword Cane, Dusty Rose Ioun Stone in Wayfinder, Dex Belt, Shield Wand in Wrist Sheathe (Bane Baldric eventually)
Traits: Blade of Mercy, Magical Knack
1. Combat Expertise
1. Improved Disarm
2. (Divination Wizard with free alertness, Compsognathus because Dinos are cool, a free true strike for those hits you just NEED to land, Snowball, and Vanish, act in all surprise rounds, Spell Focus if you’re PFS or have a lenient GM, Scribe Scroll if not.
3. Finesse Rogue
4. Catch Off-Guard
5. Spell Spec: Snowball (if PFS) Enforcer (if not)
Down the pipeline: Enforcer (if you don’t have it yet) Sap Adept line, Stealth beyond Stealth
In (the exceedingly) brief, both are capable of making touch attacks against enemy AC, have spent their money, as it comes available because I'm far too harried for WBL tables at the moment, to increase to hit, CMB and conveniently AC with the same Ioun Stone,Dex belt, naturally, etc. No, I wouldn't recommend taking feats in this order unless you can retrain, since you'll need Weapon Finesse ASAP. One builds trades utility for basic DPS, but nevertheless, both builds can become to come together pretty early and can significantly debuff enemy to hit and all important saves , also with another dip, you can trade 1d6 sneak attack for a combination between unarmed and catch off guard, with the stealth beyond stealth build idea (which remains both fabulous and, regrettably, not mine) easily accessible.
The advantages the control rogue enjoys over other classes:
1) The Thug archetype, which adds a significant bonus to your debuff, adding to your continued good health, buggering your enemies' saves, (The hot sorceress in the corner is winking suggestively at you in appreciation for this. You're welcome.) and allows you to pretend you're Ian Dury from the Drip Fed Fred music video. Go ahead, I'll wait while you educate yourselves in pop culture and remember why you wanted to play rogues to begin with.
2)Your stat array and feat selection. You'll notice that all of my stats are largely mediocre. That's by both design and laziness. Dex helps your AC, and you can't afford to be punched in the face too frequently, even with 14 Con, so feel free to revel in your role as a skill monkey controller. Frankly, you're the middle child of D&D; no one expects you to amount to anything and you got no real class features holding you down from a dip or two into classes which compliment yours. The fact that you can turn your carefree stat approach into several viable options that the "optimized classes" can't touch. For example, sure other classes could build like you, and with enough INT, they could match your skills even, but you have built in damage (Sneak Attack) The thug archetype, and no room for anything as plebeian as power attack. You're busy turning unnoticeable with Hellcat Stealth, punching people out like you're Indiana sodding Jones, throwing sneak attack snowballs, and scrying through doors to care about posers. Rangers can find traps and crank out DPS, Bards can buff, and cast spells or attack. You can do it all. At once. And look like a total pro the entire time.
3) Why not play a vivisectionist? Honestly, that's a really good question, one that I had to scramble to rationalize when I typed the original draft. Honestly, Int as a primary stat and spellcasting go in the alchemists favor, but again the thug archetype, as well as the later rogue talents which let you capitalize on disarming (Weapon Snatcher), using your rocking initiative, (Snap Shot, and the compsognothus familiar you took during your diviner dip, you did take those, right) and not dying (Offensive Defense)seem to make it at least a matter of personal choice rather than a clear cut answer. Of course, I could well be missing something obvious, and I'm sure someone can capitalize on my argument for the Control Rogue and make a better build than my meager contribution.
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First build:
1. Sap Master requires the target to be Flat Footed, not simply flanked. How do you plan on accomplishing this?
2. How is this build different/better than any of the other Enforcer builds that seem, quite frankly, better put together.
3. How do you plan on using Dirty Trick on anything? Disarm, Sunder, and Trip are the only combat maneuvers that work with Weapon Finesse. The build does not have Agile Maneuvers.
Therefore, the build's CMB is +3 (bab), -1 (STR), +1 (stone?), +2 imp Dirty Trick.
(I can't find the exact stone you're talking about. I assume it's something that gives bonus to hit/cmb).
So a total bonus of +5. For reference, a CR 1/2 Goblin has a CMD of 12 which would give that 5th level Rogue a 65% success rate. It only gets worse from there assuming competent opponents.
4. Finally, why Acid Splash and snow ball. If you really want a bunch of ranged touch attacks wouldn't you have been better served by being an Elf and taking their Racial Favored Class Bonus?
Build 2
1. I don't understand how this build has a "free True Strike." If by "free" you mean "standard action," then I see where you're going but don't understand why you didn't just take a wand instead of the Wizard dip.
2. Disarm at least can be used with a weapon, though the rules are a bit dubious right now as to whether that weapon has to have the Disarm quality. I don't think no? Errata is really a mess on this stuff. Regardless, this build is much more likely to Disarm than the other is to Dirty Trick. It is still fighting an uphill battle with CMB due to the Rogue's BAB. A battle you chose to make harder due to taking a level of Wizard.
3. Catch off Guard is at least an interesting feat choice and a way to get more Sneak Attacks. However it only works on unarmed opponents. Creatures using Natural Attacks or anyone who has Improved Unarmed Strike are not 'unarmed' when not wielding weapons. So what this is useful against is a short list that seems to mostly revolve around Barfights, people who have not yet drawn their weapons and are thus already unarmed, and people whom you have successfully disarmed.
That is all assuming you're using an improvised weapon. The build looks like it is using a sword cane.
4. The list of enemies a Rogue doesn't handle particularly well is already pretty long. With this build you have only succeeded in adding "things that cannot or will not be disarmed" to that list.
5. Again, what makes this build stand out from the hordes of other Enforcer (or Cornugan Smash) builds?
edit: You don't play a vivisectionist because it is "evil and spooky" and disallowed from Pathfinder Society and a fair bit of home games.
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Good catches. In no order:
1) If anyone's going to have initiative, it's going to be you. It's not exactly a novel idea that rogues + initiative = Sneak Attack. I'd kind of expect Improved Initiative or a familiar of the same in the later levels, but that's fully my fault for not explicitly stating that and pointing out the potential of sap master instead. For the moment, I suggest solving the problem by incorporating Agile Maneuvers instead of Skill Focus and shuffling feats accordingly, solving problem 3 as well. However, I maintain that, particularly with an investment in Hellcat Stealth, Sap Master has a pretty good chance of activating.
3) With Agile Maneuvers (still my oversight) and a Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (+1 to AC, +2 to CMB/CMD) you get 3 BAB + 5 Dex + 2 Stone +2 Imp. Trick for a total of 12, far more respectable.
4) Quality over quantity. I picked Snowball because it's a 5d6 ranged touch attack for sneak attacks and surprise rounds which occur when you're out of melee range. In my experience, in and out of PFS, it's a pretty good opener. Additionally, if you're still concerned about CMB, it would be a pretty good introductory salvo for Opening Volley, making your CMB 16 at Lv 5 with a successful hit. Really, any cantrip would be fine, but how many good options are there? Thinking about it though, with the right race you could probably turn this into a passable sniper as well as adding other feat trees.
2) Ow, but fair enough. Like I said, this was admittedly slapdash, but by ticking the essential enforcer build checklist in the early levels, I was hoping to demonstrate the surplus of free space left for effective, but non DPS chains, such as the ultimate stealth build from earlier, a potential wizard dip if one is so inclined, (Although, if one was so inclined, I would hope they'd drop the minor/major magic talents from the build) I'd argue that the primary difference is the control rogue is competent at a wide range of melee tactics as opposed to slightly more adequate at a specific strategy, but beyond the glaring omission of agile maneuvers, I'm not sure what makes this build inferior.
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1) Free as in what else are you going to do with that perfectly good divination school slot, and free as in you didn't buy the wand. No it's not auto-quickened, and I apologize if I somehow led you to think that, but it [i]is[i] an extra option the default rogue doesn't have, and let's be honest, usually if you need a +20 to hit, it's obvious enough that you can plan ahead and spare the standard action. I didn't buy the wand because my rogue needed the 750gp for high stakes poker, and also
2) Diviner Wizard is all about the utility. Scryer can literally just clairvoyance through cracks in doors and walls, around corners, whatever. That's a pretty sweet trick for a scout. Also, Wizard boosts the ever-dreadful will save by 2, like the Iron Will feat tax Rogues endure. Also, they get a familiar, which for a skill rogue, means a decent second roll on most skills, or at the very least a competent aid another. Also, the familiar gives Alertness (useful for the concept, and another free feat like the built in iron will.), and, if that still wasn't enough for you, the familiar essentially gives yet another feat, either Skill Focus, Improved Initiative, or a Save boost, depending on your preference. Plus, it gives you options like casting Acid Splash, Vanish, Silent Image, Grease, or possibly even a decent Snowball, depending on your investment in the idea. Oh yeah, and you act in any surprise round. Even the the ones you didn't see coming. For a class with multiple ranges of SA, that's pretty sweet.
3) You have a decent disarm chance, made better by the fact that you have at least one True Strike to disarm any +5 Swords of Rogue Slaying you notice pointed at you. (And since you have max perception, and your familiar shares your ranks with its roll, you bloody well better notice them.) And even if you aren't getting sneak attacks, knocking big, bad weapons out of enemy hands is undeniably useful for a party. Unarmed fighters don't seem to be particularly common enemies, and yes, against natural attackers, this build has to resort to flanking for sneak attack, thug enforcer debuffing and ranged sneak attacks against touch when applicable. Doesn't seem to me to be much worse off than any other vivisectionist or ninja. Also, I picked the sword cane because my understanding of it is that the cane itself is not meant to be used as a weapon, and thus improvised, like beating a man with a sword still in the scabbard isn't covered under longsword proficiencies. How this interacts with weapon enchantments eludes me, so ask your GM. This really oughtn't be gamebreaking though, since it isn't exactly challenging to find an improvised weapon.
4/5) I'd certainly classify it as an extra trick up the sleeve to use against people/things with weapons. The point of BAB you lose is more than made up for in the sheer utility and versatility offered by the dip. It certainly can't go toe to toe with fighter enemies, but then the rogue never could. Instead, it flanks, relies on teamwork, and contributes far more options and tactics than simple DPS. Cornugan Smash builds are never going to keep damage, intimidate, the Thug archetype (Which I remind you essentially doubles the penalty) and be able to wear as many other stylish hats as a control rogue. Did that help or am I still missing something?
@ Shaman Bond
Thanks for putting up a build and clarifying it a bit. I'll mull it over, but I like what I see so far. It definitely will take a hit on constant damage over some of the other builds (at least when sap master is not in play), but I like the versatility your build has brought to the table. I think I'll probably compare it to monsters of appropriate CR ratings to make sure that the chance of the abilities going off is consistent (even if not guaranteed).
I'd also look at what another class with similar feats might pull off. If they can match the versatility, and do it better were back to square 1, but until the legwork gets done, this might be a fun rogue to run.
Re: Scryer.
Grats. You just took the only fun out of this class.
Scrying through doors isn't fun. Sneaking in and taking a poke around is fun. Potentially pocketing loot before combat even starts is fun.
If I want to not have fun I'll do it without a -1 to my BAB thankyouverymuch.
Re: Archetype and BAB
Most of this thread has been spent scrabbling for ways to up to hit. So, no, dropping a point of BAB isn't really acceptable as the Rogue is light on ways to improve their hit chance unlike pretty much every other 3/4 BAB class.
The point of this thread is to make a Rogue who stands on its own and can compete with its competitors. Not enemies, but things that would be better to bring along in the party.
For instance, a straight Ranger could scout just as well and disarm +2 better assuming similar equipment.
Thug is a good Archetype, I just don't understand why you wouldn't go Thug/Scout instead in order to apply that penalty more often.
Thug/Scout + Enforcer does everything you're trying to do better since it has easier access to sneak attack.
Re: CMB
Using an Iconic as a template here for a couple reasons. First, I need statted up stuff that uses weapons, and second they aren't particularly well build.
Level 7 Valeros has a CMD of 26. You're going to fail to disarm him more than 50% of the time. Same goes for Dirty Trick. You're 10% more likely to hit him with a weapon and 65% more likely to hit him with a touch attack (assuming a +2 weapon).
At higher levels it'll get worse. CMD scales pretty out of control in this game for some damn reason. Full fighters with all the tricks your pulling have issues performing combat maneuvers. If this campaign stopped at 12, I'd say go for it since you're only really going to have issues past about 10.
Re: Init
Rogues don't automatically get init. You don't even have Improved Init. You also don't appear to have Reactionary. You have +4-5 on your Init roll. That certainly doesn't guarantee that you go first.
Re: Truestrike
You're using 2 whole rounds to disarm an enemy. One for Truestrike and the other for a Disarm action. During these 2 rounds this enemy has been a potentially deadly threat to your allies.
The easiest way I've found to make someone drop their weapon is to kill them. With a sword. Right in the face.
Re: Everything.
Don't get me wrong. This isn't an MMO where we're all going up against the same badguys and trying to optimize. Everyone's game is different. If this works at your table, go for it.
It wouldn't work well at he tables I play at and I'm willing to bet, by the tone of this thread, that it wouldn't fly at most of these other tables. Hence this thread's existence.
Anyway, happy rogueing.
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Shaman bond, your post is one of the best things I have read on this website. Thank you indeed. I agree with most everything you said, especially the diviner dip. Acting in the surprise round and then going first with a high initiative is huge for a rogue, more so than people seem to think here.
Dirty trick is one if the best things a rogue can do. Blinding n opponent for just one round, even if they immediately remove it, can mean an entire free turn of movement for the party (no attacks of opportunity from blind people) , and can set up tactical plays more easily.
You mentioned the use of fog clouds/ smoke sticks. On opti builds, an oracle archer recently went up that used the waves revelation to see through fog, cast a fog cloud, and then acted from inside it with no penalties, all the while having total cover and concealment from others.
This one level dip seems like a great way for ranged rogues to guarantee sneak attack, and requires very few resources.
Just my 2c
i agree 100% with shaman that you shouldnt think of a rogue as a dpr blender. just like how i play my monks, i believe a 3/4 bab class should be using debuffing and non dpr solutions to combat. tetori is my favorite archetype in the game because of the fact that it is the BEST at taking out threats for lowering the CR of an encounter. i could see a wisdom based enforcer/thug/stunning fist character as a powerhouse debuffer designed to take targets out of comission.
i personally would like to see a character that uses, thug+enforcer, stunning fist, then swift invisibility to shut down a target for the Big bad fighter to hulk smash on his inititive. that character would be insane but wouldnt be accepted based on the lack of numbers to support his position in the group.
even though he single handedly took a targets will save down by 4, ac to basically nothing and prevented that npc from acting at all for the entire first round, then when invisible and never took a point of damage in the process... which is why these types of thread discussions really irritate me.
Ya know SideKick, that is the exact reason for this thread. Post a build to illustrate your concept.
Midnighter wrote: Ya know SideKick, that is the exact reason for this thread. Post a build to illustrate your concept. the rogue is basically any of the proposed builds previously built only with a level or 2 of monk for early stunning fist access, i would do a MoMS build with dragon style, take enforcer with the rogue archetype thug and bash people with subdual damage, add in scout if you think the mobility sneak attack will help.
there really is no need to post a 12 level build or what ever.
TheSideKick wrote: Midnighter wrote: Ya know SideKick, that is the exact reason for this thread. Post a build to illustrate your concept. the rogue is basically any of the proposed builds previously built only with a level or 2 of monk for early stunning fist access, i would do a MoMS build with dragon style, take enforcer with the rogue archetype thug and bash people with subdual damage, add in scout if you think the mobility sneak attack will help.
there really is no need to post a 12 level build or what ever. actually have a proposed build helps demonstrate the numbers of a particular idea. From there we can compare/contrast it against others to see if it stacks up.
ChainsawSam wrote: Re: Init
Rogues don't automatically get init. You don't even have Improved Init. You also don't appear to have Reactionary. You have +4-5 on your Init roll. That certainly doesn't guarantee that you go first....
He does not need improved initiative. The one level dip in diviner means he always goes in the surprise round. That is the diviner's special power. On top of that it gives him a +1 to initiative. at 4th level his Dex will be 20 and he will have +5 to Initiative which in many games is pretty damn good.
Wait I forgot his familiar, Compsognathus, guess what they do? Add +4 on initiative checks. Now he has +9 which is very good.
So no matter his perception roll he always acts in the surprise round and thanks to +9 he will probably get to go pretty early pretty often.
But even so most people get caught up in going first in a round. It only matters at the beginning of the fight because after that you can just delay to move your initiative. Oh I go last now? Well that means I go just before the guy who has the top initiative thanks to the circular order of initiative.
karkon wrote: ChainsawSam wrote: Re: Init
Rogues don't automatically get init. You don't even have Improved Init. You also don't appear to have Reactionary. You have +4-5 on your Init roll. That certainly doesn't guarantee that you go first....
He does not need improved initiative. The one level dip in diviner means he always goes in the surprise round. That is the diviner's special power. On top of that it gives him a +1 to initiative. at 4th level his Dex will be 20 and he will have +5 to Initiative which in many games is pretty damn good.
Wait I forgot his familiar, Compsognathus, guess what they do? Add +4 on initiative checks. Now he has +9 which is very good.
So no matter his perception roll he always acts in the surprise round and thanks to +9 he will probably get to go pretty early pretty often.
But even so most people get caught up in going first in a round. It only matters at the beginning of the fight because after that you can just delay to move your initiative. Oh I go last now? Well that means I go just before the guy who has the top initiative thanks to the circular order of initiative. He actually has +11 to initiative since the Familiar grants Alertness. With the Rogue talent that lets you sneak attack folks in the surprise round even if they've acted, I can see this build doing pretty interestingly since it always acts in the surprise round.
I like how people keep mentioning my stealth build. It makes my goblin giggle with murderous delight.
The first build shaman posted is missing combat expertise, so his build is incorrect.
Also you have to give up something for agile maneuvers? Minor magic for combat trick I guess?
So, by PURE rogue, I take it you mean no archetypes allowed?
Either way, maybe I'll mention this thread to my friend who always plays rogues and usually ends up being the most deadly player in my games.
Scavion wrote: He actually has +11 to initiative since the Familiar grants Alertness. With the Rogue talent that lets you sneak attack folks in the surprise round even if they've acted, I can see this build doing pretty interestingly since it always acts in the surprise round.
Um...
d20pfsrd wrote: Alertness
You often notice things that others might miss.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on Perception and Sense Motive skill checks. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
So... where does it says Alertness gives you an initiative bonus?
So I decided to put this rogue up against a cr 5 monster, The Cyclops. The cyclops is pretty close to what paizo outlines as an average cr 5, so this battle should be around 50/50 for who wins.
The cyclops has +11 perception, which is pretty good but loses to your stealth most of the time, so I'll say you out stealth him and being human, you wont have to worry about darkness. His initiative is also terrible, so I will assume you wait on dirty trick.
So, you sneak up and attack! With plus 9 to hit, your average damage against the cyclops is....3.04, if you are going to give him the sickened condition from Brutality, or 4.96 if you don't. I assume you will.
Great, so he is sickened! Regular initiative, and since your bonus is +8 with the reactionary trait, you go first a large majority of the time. Dirty trick time! With a +13 bonus, you only have a 55% chance of succeeding. This is pretty important that you do not fail this check, because if you do, the cyclops is going to flash of insight his first iterative attack with power attack on, for a 45% chance at a 3x critical(+9 sickened, +7 with PA on), doing ~31+ 39 damage to you otherwise doing ~ 23 per swing.
It uh, doesn't look so good for this rogue against the cyclops. Even stealth is difficult, because of their excellent perception
Not sure if you guys want this but...
Consider the grapple rogue. The object would be to get the opponet tied up and thus helpless (bound = helpless until further notice!). Helpless = flat footed.
You don't have to have the scout archetype for this. Simply grapple like crazy. Use sap adept + sap master + pinning knockout to deal TONS of damage after that point.
A one level dip into maneuver master monk allows you to flurry of blows + maintain a grapple, allowing a lot of sneak attack potential during the grapple (though the opponent needs to be pinned for SA to work).
Have a wand of true strike to help get grapples in, and with greater grapple you'll be able to true strike and maintain a grapple in one round.
If you can, get Dan Bongs, for +2 to grapples. There's quite a few other items to check out as well. Consider making strength your primary stat.
We just went over why Maneuver Rogues were a bad idea.
In the time it takes for you to grapple, pin, and then tie up anything of importance it could have been killed twice over.
I am skeptical. Show me a build. That's what this thread is about right?
AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote: Scavion wrote: He actually has +11 to initiative since the Familiar grants Alertness. With the Rogue talent that lets you sneak attack folks in the surprise round even if they've acted, I can see this build doing pretty interestingly since it always acts in the surprise round.
Um...
d20pfsrd wrote: Alertness
You often notice things that others might miss.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on Perception and Sense Motive skill checks. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
So... where does it says Alertness gives you an initiative bonus? My bad. Perception is still awesome as heck for finding those traps though. And it gets better at 10th!
CWheezy wrote: So I decided to put this rogue up against a cr 5 monster, The Cyclops. The cyclops is pretty close to what paizo outlines as an average cr 5, so this battle should be around 50/50 for who wins.
The cyclops has +11 perception, which is pretty good but loses to your stealth most of the time, so I'll say you out stealth him and being human, you wont have to worry about darkness. His initiative is also terrible, so I will assume you wait on dirty trick.
So, you sneak up and attack! With plus 9 to hit, your average damage against the cyclops is....3.04, if you are going to give him the sickened condition from Brutality, or 4.96 if you don't. I assume you will.
Great, so he is sickened! Regular initiative, and since your bonus is +8 with the reactionary trait, you go first a large majority of the time. Dirty trick time! With a +13 bonus, you only have a 55% chance of succeeding. This is pretty important that you do not fail this check, because if you do, the cyclops is going to flash of insight his first iterative attack with power attack on, for a 45% chance at a 3x critical(+9 sickened, +7 with PA on), doing ~31+ 39 damage to you otherwise doing ~ 23 per swing.
It uh, doesn't look so good for this rogue against the cyclops. Even stealth is difficult, because of their excellent perception
Is this Shaman's rogue build? Because if he has time he can cast True Strike before moving in and dirty tricking for a blind or even better disarming the Cyclops. Oh I know! He uses a trip weapon and auto trips him. Cyclops CMD is a 22, the Rogue succeeds on anything but a 1.
So the Cyclops is tripped on the surprise round, chances are our funny rogue goes first and dirty tricks a blind on the Cyclops as well. Prone gives a -4 penalty to AC and penalties to AC apply to your CMD as well so our Rogue kicks sand in the Cyclops' big dumb eye and blinds him on a roll of 5 or better.
Cyclops' turn. He can either stand and provoke, wipe away the sand in his eyes, or make an attack from the ground if hes scared of getting up.
This is a pretty damn good set up for your party, I have to say =)
The Cyclops isn't tripped on the Surprise Round. The Rogue used True Strike. Since True Strike must be expended before the end of your next round it doesn't work here for prebuffing.
The surprise round is either a standard action or a move action. Not a full round action and not both. Unless the Rogue is directly behind the Cyclops somehow in which case the cyclops' +11 perception vs the rogue out of cover is probably a crap shoot and there wouldn't be a surprise round in the first place.
So the rogue either prebuffs with truestrike and then initiates Ambush realizing he wasted it and casts it again, or he just casts truestrike in the surprise round and doesn't waste a charge.
The rogue trips the Cyclops on round one. Grats.
The Cyclops uses an immediate action for Flash of Insight getting a natural 20 on the attack roll. This can either be done to deal ~22 damage (probably one-shotting the rogue if he confirms the crit with a +7 to the roll) to the Rogue and then get up anyway because he knows you're not going to be able to do anything about it.
Or, my favorite, he uses his Improved bulrush along with his natural 20 to knock the no-strength rogue and its crappy CMD very, very, very far away. 31 (35 - 4 for prone) on the total roll. Far away. Then the Cyclops gets up because there is literally nothing you can do about it.
Now what? If the Rogue wants to trip or dirty trick he has to beat the Cyclops' CMD of 22. Without true strike this rogue has (assuming Agile maneuvers cause I'm nice) something like a 9 CMB? 65% chance of failure. This isn't even a critter with a particularly high CMD.
If he wanted to stop dicking around, the Cyclops' AC is 19 so a Rogue built to stab things well could probably trivialize the damn thing. But this rogue isn't built to stab things well.
If True Strike really was the answer to all our prayers when it came to combat maneuvers we would already have seen a build for the Trip Wizard. We haven't because its not.
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FrodoOf9Fingers wrote: Not sure if you guys want this but...
Consider the grapple rogue. The object would be to get the opponet tied up and thus helpless (bound = helpless until further notice!). Helpless = flat footed.
You don't have to have the scout archetype for this. Simply grapple like crazy. Use sap adept + sap master + pinning knockout to deal TONS of damage after that point.
A one level dip into maneuver master monk allows you to flurry of blows + maintain a grapple, allowing a lot of sneak attack potential during the grapple (though the opponent needs to be pinned for SA to work).
Have a wand of true strike to help get grapples in, and with greater grapple you'll be able to true strike and maintain a grapple in one round.
If you can, get Dan Bongs, for +2 to grapples. There's quite a few other items to check out as well. Consider making strength your primary stat.
When you build this guy, don't forget the Straggler feat that allows you to sneak attack a grappled person.
ChainsawSam wrote: The Cyclops isn't tripped on the Surprise Round. The Rogue used True Strike. Since True Strike must be expended before the end of your next round it doesn't work here for prebuffing.
The surprise round is either a standard action or a move action. Not a full round action and not both. Unless the Rogue is directly behind the Cyclops somehow in which case the cyclops' +11 perception vs the rogue out of cover is probably a crap shoot and there wouldn't be a surprise round in the first place.
So the rogue either prebuffs with truestrike and then initiates Ambush realizing he wasted it and casts it again, or he just casts truestrike in the surprise round and doesn't waste a charge.
The rogue trips the Cyclops on round one. Grats.
See heres the disconnect. The Rogue casts True Strike. Moves 30 ft closer to the Cyclops while still hidden.
No combat yet.
Rogue moves 30 ft closer to the Cyclops and makes his trip attempt which is his action in the surprise round with a +20.
Proceed to roll initiative.
Scavion wrote: ChainsawSam wrote: The Cyclops isn't tripped on the Surprise Round. The Rogue used True Strike. Since True Strike must be expended before the end of your next round it doesn't work here for prebuffing.
The surprise round is either a standard action or a move action. Not a full round action and not both. Unless the Rogue is directly behind the Cyclops somehow in which case the cyclops' +11 perception vs the rogue out of cover is probably a crap shoot and there wouldn't be a surprise round in the first place.
So the rogue either prebuffs with truestrike and then initiates Ambush realizing he wasted it and casts it again, or he just casts truestrike in the surprise round and doesn't waste a charge.
The rogue trips the Cyclops on round one. Grats.
See heres the disconnect. The Rogue casts True Strike. Moves 30 ft closer to the Cyclops while still hidden.
No combat yet.
Rogue moves 30 ft closer to the Cyclops and makes his trip attempt which is his action in the surprise round with a +20.
Proceed to roll initiative. There's no disconnect. Being in melee reach with the cyclops to be able to get off the true strike in the surprise round is going to be tough. (Not impossible, but far from an auto-succeed).
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I've been following this thread for 2 weeks or more now, hoping to find some tricks to make my own rogue excell better during combat.
In this quest for a rogue i thought i'd add some math:
How many hits do a rogue need to hit each round independent of his level (assuming same level as monster) in order to kill his target with 1 full round action of attacking?
Two weapon fighting came to mind, then TWF while throwing stuff + rapid shot.
This should generate 8 attacks/round around level 16. Produce flame, haste, TWF, ITWF & GTWF + rapid shot should provide one with this.
I'm no Pathfinder bestiary expert but I assume monsters have 10hp/HD.
Your sneak attack progression is; 1d6/2lvls = 1,75 damage/lvl
So to 1 round kill most targets you'd need 10/1,75=5,7hits/round.
Touch attacks + maximized hitting stat should give you better odds at hitting than your optimized fighter, assuming the enemy's Dex bonus is gone.
Build requirements:
Pure rogue!
Helpful crafting wizard/sorcerer
Any follower /worthless combatant
Cool GM
I'm stuck with the core rulebook, but chill touch and produce flame (as mentioned by others) handles this. First, try convincing your GM that your Pheonix gloves are built with 2 alarm spells, activating oneandother in an infinite loop every 6 sec until overheated or disabled. "overheated, cause they still had fire burning as the loop tried to produce flame"
Or! Be the BEAST half the world's population fears: an Invisible, flying, sneak attacking giant Octopus with 9 tentacles (20reach!).
Add combat reflexes, weapon finesse and ofc - max Dex!, combine this with either wondrous item which grants chill touch/produce flame at CL8+
Tactic: buff before combat
Use your wondrous item - beast shape || (become a giant octopus)
Use some winged boots or wondrous item to fly/ask wizard)
Surprise round: activate greater invisibility wondrous item
Round 1: move towards foe, cast touch spell and hit once (or don't for surprise)
Round 2: full round tentacle sneak attack! - enemy dead!
Round 3: like round 1
Round 4: like round 2
With the incorperated automatic resetting trap touch wondrous item you might have, you would completely ignore round one if a follower or similar moved you with a floating disc just before your next full round attack. (make the follower diminutive and hide it in an allie's pocket with shared vision or something).
Make all these items usable only once/day (1/5cost), command word (1800gp).
Upgrade uses/day with more cash later on and make the items usable in increments.
(However, sorry, Pathfinder Society won't allow this creative crafting)
Btw this build would be cheaper as an arcane trickster, but less powerful (losing sneak attack dice) - and would work in any game (lacking touch attack)
An arcane Trickster can use this tactic at lvl 9.
4 Wizard, 1 Rogue, 1Assasin, 3 Arcane Trickster
The rogue could do this at about lvl 8 if all costs are cut using the magic item creation rules.
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