Bodhizen's Guide to the Optimal Inquisitor


Advice

251 to 289 of 289 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Scarab Sages

Again, great work! A couple notes:
1) above the table of contents, should that say "advice guide", it currently reads "advise guide"
2) your description of the stalwart class feature, says that the inquisitor "can avoid effects that reduce Fortitude or Will saves". Which it can't, it should probably say something like "can avoid effects that are reduced on a successful Fortitude or Will save"


B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:

Again, great work! A couple notes:

1) above the table of contents, should that say "advice guide", it currently reads "advise guide"
2) your description of the stalwart class feature, says that the inquisitor "can avoid effects that reduce Fortitude or Will saves". Which it can't, it should probably say something like "can avoid effects that are reduced on a successful Fortitude or Will save"

Thanks for your comments, and your interest on the Guide!

So... I don't use American spellings for things; note items like "armour" or "flavour". So, "advise" is the correct spelling in this case. :) As for comment #2, you are quite correct that I didn't word that appropriately, and I will fix that for the next iteration of the Guide. Well spotted!


Xethik wrote:
Lirya wrote:
You are right, the Divine Hunter does call out what happens if the hunter picks up animal domain (the old companion gains +1 to an ability score twice instead). So I guess applying that to the inquisitor would be a reasonable house rule if the GM doesn't want to allow a super-companion or a small army of fully leveled companions (assuming the Inquisitor takes Boon Companion).
Ah right, Divine Hunter was the name. I believe PFS restricts players to one animal companion, so it would be a GM-by-GM call on how to handle the Sacred Huntmaster outside of PFS. For PFS, I believe it would just do nothing, sadly.

Aw, so you're saying I can't ride into town with my two donkey familiars like a total badass?


Bodhizen wrote:
So... I don't use American spellings for things; note items like "armour" or "flavour". So, "advise" is the correct spelling in this case. :) As for comment #2, you are quite correct that I didn't word that appropriately, and I will fix that for the next iteration of the Guide. Well spotted!

Bodhizen, being stuck with Canadian English (which is little more than a semi-fluid mixture of British and American English), I also noticed the use of "advise" in the guide. I've never seen any suggestion that British English doesn't treat "advice" and "advise" as two different words - one noun and one verb. As far as I can tell, Cambridge, Oxford, and Wikipedia all agree on that as well.


Despite the fact that the guide is written in English rather than American, I think Bodhizen has really raised the bar with presentation here.

I really pity the guy come the next splatbook that includes Inquisitor stuff. Reformatting that thing after additions looks like it is going to be painful.

Thanks for giving so much time and attention to one of my favorite classes.

Silver Crusade

great guide Bodi.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

In the Devastator section, under Improved Devastating Strike you write:
"You're starting to drop your crit confirmation range to 16-20 without any other helpers."
Which I can only interpret as "this feat lets you threaten a crit on 16 or up" and I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. Surely "you gain a bonus on attack rolls to confirm a critical hit" means "you get +X on the second roll against AC to confirm the crit" not "your critical threat range expands by X."


Also there are several references to preparing spells even though Inquisitors are spontaneous spellcasters. The description for Piercing Spell advises you to "have it prepared upon a spell" and a bunch of spells including but not limited to Animal Purpose Training, Bless Water and Know the Enemy talk about whether or not they're worth having prepared.


Those issues should now be fixed. Thank you for spotting those errors!

Sovereign Court

Regarding your Aegis Inquisitor:
Inquisitors are not proficient with Martial weapons so they would not be able to use their shield with TWF without incurring the non-proficiency penalty on top of the TWF penalty.. They would need to take Martial Weapon Proficiency (shield) in order to use it properly.

Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQ:

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9r3w

Shield Bash: If I am proficient with shields, can I make a shield bash without a nonproficiency penalty?

Armor proficiencies and weapon proficiencies are different things.

Table 6–4: Weapon (page 142) lists light shields, heavy shields, and spiked shields as martial weapons. The shield bash attacks entries (page 152) say that using a shield in this way is a "martial bludgeoning weapon."

Regardless of whether or not you are proficient in wearing a shield for defense, attacking with a shield is using a martial weapon and you take appropriate penalties if you are not proficient in martial weapons (for example, if you are a cleric, you take a –4 nonproficiency penalty when making shield bash attacks because you are not proficient in martial weapons).

Shields are specifically called out on the Martial weapon list (Shield, light is a light weapon while Shield, heavy is a one-handed weapon).


Fun 11th Level Inquisitor Build For Your Perusal:

Sanctified Slayer VMC Rogue
War or similar Domain
Level 11th - 5d6 Sneak Attack Dice
Use 8th level power to get Dastardly Finish as a swift action for 11 rounds per day (no need to be consecutive)
Cast Stunning Barrier on yourself
Castigate around you like a madman
First dude to cower or be stunned gets a CDG to the face.
--------------------------------------------------
Pick up Dastardly Finish at 13th, you now qualify for Merciless Butchery since you have 5d6 sneak attack AND the Studied Target class feature. Castigate and CDG as a swift action right after.

Plus you have Evasion AND Stalwart for saving fun.

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I didn't realize that the guide had been updated until I saw the post indicating so (the link on the first post goes back to the old guide).

While I realize the original post can't be edited, is it possible to add a link to the original guide pointing to the new guide?

In case it hasn't been mentioned yet (as I haven't been following guides for a while): why is Half-Elf blue, while Half-Orc is green? As far as I can tell, the real benefit for Half-Elf is the ability to pick up a martial or exotic weapon, whereas the Half-Orc has access to Greataxe & Falchion by default, plus a nifty suite of alternate abilities (Sacred Tattoo + Fate's Favored = almost gaining the Dwarven 'Hardy' ability. And let's face it, as an Inquisitor will be picking up Fate's Favored if he can have access to it). Unless Ultimate Campaign is not one of the books used with the guide.

Even if Ultimate Campaign isn't used, the alternate abilities of Half-Orc and Half-Elf are about on par - so both should perhaps be blue or green.

I do, however, like the formatting of the Paladin & Inquisitor guides - kudos.

EDIT: Also, I'm not sure if the 20-point buy stat array you proposed for the Devastator Inquisitor is an efficient use of spending for your point buy. While I get that the Inquisitor has a lot of use for Wisdom, I'm not sure if a 16 in Wisdom is warranted. (I haven't taken a look at other point buys, as 20 is what I usually make characters with.)

For comparison:

STR 16, DEX 11, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 7

vs.

STR 15, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 14, CHA 7

At levels 1-3, the first stat array will yield +1 to attack/+2 to damage when 2-handing compared to the second.

At level 4, if the first stat bump gets places within DEX for the first array, while the second array puts it into STR, both will have the same bonus to hit/damage. Due to Cunning Initiative, both will have the same Initiative modifiers, so again that's a wash. However, the second stat array will have better bonus to Knowledge checks, plus better vs. identifying Monsters (INT + WIS = +2 for the first array, INT + WIS = +3 for the second), as well as having 2 more skill points per level.

The tradeoff is -1 to Will saves and -1 to saving throw DCs (the latter is probably more important due to the Inquisitor already having a good Will save). But as a Devastator Inquisitor, your spells will probably be more utility/buff type spells, so the save DC may not be as important.

Just some food for thought.


Btw, the newly released Green Faith Initiate might be good for Inquisitors who want to use Heavy Armor, since it trades away Stalwart.

ALSO: For Devastators, I swear by a one-handed weapon wielded in two-hands. Saved me from having to draw something else while grappled.


Secret Wizard wrote:
Btw, the newly released Green Faith Initiate might be good for Inquisitors who want to use Heavy Armor, since it trades away Stalwart.

The Green Faith Marshal is somewhat interesting since it seems to be tailored to still be combinable with Sacred Huntsmaster for double Druid/Ranger/Hunter flare. My problem with that archetype is that I can't really find any Druid Animal/Terrain Domains that I'd actually want to use besides Wolf, Eagle(Adding Fly to an Inquisitor's spell list is pretty damn huge), or one of the other familiar granters to swap it out for Improved Familiar later on. Also losing Stalwart in exchange for Woodland Stride hurts quite a bit.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I like Green Faith Marshall as well. A few ideas.

Green Faith Marshall can be combined with Sanctified Slayer and crocodile Domain for more Sneak attack damage and a familiar.

Desert Domains first level ability turns on moonlight stalker.

Plains grants pounce and adds HASTE to your spell list.

The channeling domains opens up guided hand. This might be good for some builds.


Any thoughts on the Relic Hunter? I'm very much liking the flavour, but it feels mechanically weak with everything it gives up and the restricted spell selection.


Haven't read this whole thread, so apologies if some of these have been brought up before:

Any thoughts on VMC options? (This question is also for your Antipaladin/Paladin guide, but I think they might be too feat-starved unless you dip something that awards bonus feats,)

Also, any love for Dex-based melee builds?

Great guide overall, but a few points:

For the Divinity section, I would recommend completely reversing the 3 rules. What your deity is capable of doing for you is of limited use if you honk off your deity or go insane trying to follow your deity's directives (that is, unless you're SUPPOSED to go insane). Also, Calistria's name is missing the 2nd 'i'.

Also, in the Divinity section, as long as we're talking about what they can do for you, might as well rate their favored weapons. And some deities (for example, Iomedae) are listed as providing access to no additional spells, even though you have spells listed for them in the Spells section.

For the Cure Wounds series of spells, I would recommend degrading the ratings progressively after Cure Moderate Wounds (*), because you fall increasingly behind a Cleric or Oracle, and these spells aren't free spells known for you.

(*)My thoughts are Blue for Cure Light Wounds and Cure Moderate Wounds, Green for Cure Serious Wounds, Orange for Cure Critical Wounds, Orange for Cure Light Wounds Mass Edition, and Orange/Green for Cure Moderate Wounds Mass Edition (normally Orange, but rating goes up despite falling even further behind if you don't have another healer in the party).

For some other situational spells that get rated as Green or Blue, I would recommend being more aggressive about recommending getting a Scroll, Potion, or Wand for these.

For combat feats, in some places you have Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus listed as recommended to get at 1st, but you can't get these at 1st unless you dipped in something else first, due to the BAB +1 requirement (this is fixed in some places but not others). A few feats are also listed as being recommended to get at an even-numbered level, which is only possible if you dipped an odd number of levels in something else.

For metamagic feats, a lot of them are listed as being recommended to get at too low a level for them to be of any use, due to the spell level cost (usually even if you get some ability that reduces the spell level cost -- it usually isn't going to be worthwhile to get a metamagic feat that you can only apply to Orisons).


just as a note from the Inner Sea Races book, if you are playing a half-orc there is a teamwork feat called Pack Intimidation that would be great for an inquisitor that intimidates foes.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So, what's the consensus on The Sacred Huntmaster vs Animal Domain for the animal companion? Assuming you can only get 1 animal at a time, which is the superior option?

I'm digging the Sacred Huntmaster right now. Aspect of the Beast can potentially be Judgement with more uses per day.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Anyone have any insight into the question above? I'm gonna play an Inquisitor in a level 10 campaign without any other guaranteed melee characters, so I'm thinking an animal companion is worth grabbing. Especially so I can actually use all of my team work feats. But I'm not sure if I want to trade out my Judgements or my Domain for it. Dunno what I'd want to go with as a Domain if I don't go Feather though. Rage? Travel?


I'll share what I know

Sacred Huntsmaster is solid w/ many people prefering it over a regular Hunter, mostly for the spell list but saves & wis to initiative are nice too. Another big draw you've already said is TW feats pull double duty. Animal Focus boosts your AC w/o burning gold for gear and Planar Focus can flesh it out w/ some extra damage/defense options once you purchase stat gear.

Sacred Hunstmaster is usually built around Pack Flanking and Outflank combined with Precise Strike & Escape Route for position free flanking and maneuverability or Combat Reflexes, Paired Opportunists & Broken Wing Gambit for an AoO blender chain reaction. It does require 13 int since you need Combat Expertise for Pack Flanking (Dirty Fighting won't work.) You can dip Brawler (Wild Child) and skip the int req w/o losing levels for the AC if needed. As far as Domains, War (Tactics) is nice for rolling 2x on initiative & the rounds/lvl mini Martial Flexibility @ 8th.

For an Animal domain build, I've been looking at combining it w/ Sanctified Slayer mostly just using the AC as a flanking buddy. Accomplished Sneak Attacker & Precise Strike keep your SA dice close to a rogue from 3rd till 15th or so.

tl;dr

Sacred Hustmaster for a strong melee pair

Animal domain for more focus on the Inquisitor w/ the AC as more of a sidekick.

Hope that helps.


Sacred Huntmaster is strong for a melee pair. With the right Teamwork feat selection you can make up for the lack of judgments.

Pack Flanking + Outflank is like having a constant +4 bonus to attack.

For a Sacred Huntmaster the animal companion is just as important for combat effectiveness as the Inquisitor themselves.

For other Inquisitors that just have animal companions, they're more a small boon that is not usually integral to the combat capability.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So it seems like the Sacred Huntmaster will really pull ahead when you can't otherwise count on a flanking buddy. So party composition may be the determining factor.

How about the Sacred Slayer? At level 10, it does sort of feel like a straight upgrade over the vanilla.

Silver Crusade

The real question for me about the Sacred Huntmaster is how it compares to the Hunter class. At first glance, they seem nearly identical, just with different spell lists, and the inquisitor has more class skills.

Has anyone done a more detailed comparison?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Fromper wrote:

The real question for me about the Sacred Huntmaster is how it compares to the Hunter class. At first glance, they seem nearly identical, just with different spell lists, and the inquisitor has more class skills.

Has anyone done a more detailed comparison?

At a glance, the Hunter has a better Reflex save, a bonus feat, and various ranger nature abilities like Woodland Stride. The Inquisitor gets a better will save, more skill points, Stern Gaze, Stalwart, and freaking Bane.

The Inquisitor seems way better unless you really want those nature features.


Yeah, reflex save is usually the least important save. The nature abilities are cool if that's what you really want to go for...

But the Inquisitor has good will save and a better spell list for self buffing.

The one spell list consideration is the Hunter Spell list for buffing the animal companion is stronger.

Animal Growth and a few other spells can really help your animal companion output some damage.

In my mind, the animal companion part of the Hunter equation is actually the primary damage dealer.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So, a comparison.

Julian, Half Orc Sacred Slayer. Sacred Tattoo, Fate's Favored, Skilled.

Domain: Feather

Level 10. 60,000 gold.

STR: 18 (20 with belt.)
DEX: 12
CON: 14
INT: 13
WIS: 16 (18 with Headband.)
CHA: 7

Gear: +1 keen menacing falchion, +1 mithral breastplate, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of giant strength +2, Cloak of resistance +2, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day), Masterwork composite longbow, Ring of protection +1

AC: 22
Fort: 13
Ref: 8
Will: 15

Feats:
Power Attack (Slayer Talent), Combat Expertise, Boon Companion, Cornugon Smash, Hurtful, Monster Lore

Teamwork Feats: Pack Flanking, Outflank, Paired Opportunist

With Bane, Pack Flanking, and Studied Target in effect: Falcion: +22/+17, 2d4+19+4d6. Averages 38 damage a hit before you factor in that sweet crit range or other buff spells. Call that 76 around for simplicity?

A tiger companion with no real wealth investment, weapon focus, and Power Attack is going to get five attacks at rougly +17 to hit, 1d6+11. Call it 75 damage a round.

So you and the Tiger deal roughly equal damage assuming both full attack. Realistically, the tiger is the only one full attacking round 1, and you need two rounds anyway to study targets and Bane. So let's knock 10 damage off round 1 for not having Bane, and say you are doing 103 damage that round, and 151 the following.

Now, let's compare the same chassis to a Sacred Huntmaster, with the Rage Domain and replacing Paired Opportunist with Improved Spell Sharing. Before your Tiger pounces with you on it's back, your going to use your standard action to cast Divine Favor/Power on BOTH of you. (5-6 rounds should be more than enough for most combats.) Your swift will activate your choice of Animal Focus. We will assume you both have Bull here.

Mr. Tiger Does: 5 attacks at 1d6+16, with a +21 to hit. 97.5 average damage, and your attacks are all 25% more likely to land. That's a negligible damage difference round 1.

Round 2? Mr. Tiger is doing it again, and after you activate Bane>>Rage>> Destructive Smite, you are swinging at +25 to hit, 2d4+29+2d6. 41 damage a hit. 82 a round.

Let's also not forget that if neither Inquisitor has an ally to cast haste, the Huntmaster can use Divine Power instead of favor and reap the benefits much harder.

The rage domain can be traded out for various options. The vanilla Inquisitor can use judgments for defensive boons instead, and the Sanctified Slayer can use Studied Target for skill bonuses. But that seems like a wash with the versatility of Animal Focus. The only real advantage I see either having over the Sacred Huntmaster is they still get Solo Tactics if they can't bring their tiger somewhere.

What do you guys think of my breakdown? Oh, and is Hurtful worth it on a class which has so much swift action use? Any tips to further optimize the builds?

Silver Crusade

I just noticed a huge flaw in the Huntmaster archetype. Inquisitors don't get Handle Animal as a class skill, and the archetype doesn't add it.

The DC to command a trained animal is only 10, and you get a +4 because it's your companion animal, but you can't take 10 in combat. Charisma's your most likely dump stat (see Captain Morgan's example with 7 cha, above), so you're likely to be failing to control your pet 25% or more of the time at level 1, and won't get it to the point of auto-success until around level 4-6.

Probably the best way to compensate for this weakness is just invest in a trait like Savannah Child that gives Handle Animal as class, probably with a +1 trait bonus, but that means losing a trait you may have wanted for something else.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Yeah, I'm not really clear how that works. Doesn't it automatically obey tricks it's been trained in?

Silver Crusade

Captain Morgan wrote:
Yeah, I'm not really clear how that works. Doesn't it automatically obey tricks it's been trained in?

Nope.

Core Rulebook wrote:

Task Handle Animal DC

Handle an animal 10
"Push" an animal 25
Core Rulebook wrote:

Handle an Animal: This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.

"Push" an Animal: To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn't know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.

So just getting your animal to do something as basic as attack on command is DC 10 (DC 12 if it's wounded). I believe once it's attacking, it'll continue attacking the same target until it falls, or until you tell it otherwise.

I just looked it up, and the Savanna trait from the Advanced Players Guide and training harness from the Advanced Race Guide go a long way towards dealing with this. Assuming 7 charisma, if you take that trait and spend 10 gp on that piece of equipment, plus 1 skill rank in HA, you should have:

-2 charisma
+1 rank
+3 class skill
+1 trait
+2 untyped (training harness)
+4 for being your companion
= +9 at level 1

So if the pet isn't damaged, that's auto-success. If it's wounded, you have a 10% chance of failure. It's just annoying that you need to invest a trait in that, since you'd think any class or archetype that gets a pet would have the skill as class.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Thanks for the breakdown. I did notice the lack of Handle Animal before. It doesn't stop it from being a pretty amazing archetype though.

Silver Crusade

Yeah, it just strikes me as a flaw in the archetype. I don't know why they'd publish any class or archetype with an animal companion that doesn't get that as a class skill.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

There's no reason I'm missing why a melee Inquisitor can't ride his mount into battle, right? If they are, is it worth taking the heavy armor proficiency? Even with the mount offsetting your movement speed, the increased cost of Mithral Fullplate over Breast Plate seems to offset the increased AC.

EDIT: Oh, if you can afford 12k, you can get a Horsemaster's Saddle, and a domain pet can get your teamwork feats. That would go a long way towards closing the gap with the Sacred Huntmaster. What do y'all think? Worth the money to stay vanilla/Sacred Slayer with the Saddle?


Quote:
In addition, the mount gains the benefits of any teamwork feats possessed by the rider.

If you're going to be riding your AC then it closes the gap but I can also see an argument for it not even working for the AC since Mounts & ACs are "the same 'cept different".


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

How about ride checks? Can anyone do a breakdown of what a necessary minimum for the ride skill on an Inquisitor who rides his mount into battle, like Fromper did for Handle Animal?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

For the Sanctified Slayer there's any clarification about the "he DCs of slayer class abilities against that opponent increase by 1"? It doesn't work for the inquisitor abilities?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Necro'd, but can't access the guide any more.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
blammit wrote:
Necro'd, but can't access the guide any more.

Found it to be online today: Bodhizen's Guide to the Optimal Inquisitor


That link works, whereas the Guide to the Guides link to it doesn't, so an update is in order.

251 to 289 of 289 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Bodhizen's Guide to the Optimal Inquisitor All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice