Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Dragon Empires Gazetteer (PFRPG)

What about the seven rulers of Heaven / nine Archdevils / four Horsemen / etc.?

It doesn't matter what Material world or part of a Material world that you live on, I'm still hungry. Same could be said for the major gods I suppose, regardless of what name or form they're worshipped under.

I think this might be the most anticipated product for me that I have ever known Paizo to have published or will publish. I can't wait and I do hope it is popular enough to justify a slow boat to publication for a hardcover down the road.

I am very interested in what is done with the deities and can't wait to see the new races, especially the kitsune and the samsaran.

I wonder... will there be any new regional traits in this? I am guessing that would probably take up too much room considering there is already so much that this book will have to cover. Hopefully, some new traits for the region will be in the Jade Regent AP Player's Guide.

Really looking forward to this book...!

Besides, "a realm where ... and imperial dragons rule"

Any chances of a nation ruled/heavily influenced by Lung Dragons?

It strikes me as strange on some level that deities (which are much more powerful) have a vastly smaller area of influence than the much less powerful planar beings.

Gods aren`t in the same game as `rulers` of planes or anything.

What do you mean by `area of influence` anyways?

I mean both the area of an outer plane controlled by that deity and the general proportion of mortal souls that might end up in that deity's domain.

Let us take Erastil and Andoletta as examples. Erastil has a domain in the fourth tier of Heaven. Andoletta, comparatively, runs the fourth tier of Heaven. Erastil's domain is a small part of this area. Given that there are likely many more deities in Heaven than Erastil, Iomedae, and Torag, Andoletta's domain probably contains (and dwarfs in size) the domains of lots of deities. Andoletta is, however, only an Empyreal Lord, not a deity. Any one of the deities of Heaven could come and kill her (not that they'd want to). Similarly, if Heaven were attacked by a coalition of evil gods, it would be Iomedae, Torag, Erastil, and the like who would be providing the best defense, not Andoletta. To come at it from a different angle, a band of epic-level adventurers could come into Heaven and (assuming no outside force stopped them and they were powerful enough) kill Grandmother Crow, depriving the fourth tier of Heaven of a ruler. They couldn't do that to Erastil, though, as he is fully divine and on a different tier of power than Andoletta and the epic-leveled adventurers.

Let us temporarily work under the assumption that Erastil isn't worshipped much in Tian Xia (this could be completely wrong). What are the odds that a soul from there ends up in Erastil's domain? Very low; someone would have to be converted by a missionary. What are the odds that a soul ends up in Andoletta's domain? Roughly one-seventh if that soul was lawful good and had no patron deity and didn't deny the existence of his/her own soul. Let us say, similarly, that Erastil isn't worshipped at all on the planet of Verces (again, this could be completely wrong). The same odds apply. Souls from Verces can end up under the jurisdiction of Andoletta, but not Erastil.

The general gist of this is that Andoletta, who is responsible for more souls and a much larger proportion of Heaven, is much less powerful and far easier to kill than Erastil is. Similar things crop up in Hell and Abaddon. The other planes don't really have this issue because they either don't have a centralized set of rulers or are being run by either full-on deities or entities of indeterminate power levels.

If a God is so much more powerful, why do they need to personally rule anything? Control of lands/people don`t do anything to augment their personal power. If they don`t like how somebody is ruling a land/plane/people, they can take that person out / send a replacement / etc. This is exactly in line with how Paizo has stated Gods to work in their world, i.e. GENERALLY a more hands-off, indirect approach.

You do present a good point here about the gods being more hands-off; they certainly are that way on the material plane, at least. If that's also true on the outer planes, then that could be all there is too it and would be an acceptable explanation. The general power balance / situation just struck me as slightly odd in terms of the area of control some non-deific planar rulers had, so I figured I'd ask.

I feel like I'm starting to derail the thread of an interesting product too much with a minor side-issue. Sorry about that.

Who wants to take care of that many souls? I mean really, that's the reward for being a deity?

Erastil has a sweet pad and only invites his best friends there to party ad infinitum. He leaves the masses for the Empyreal Lords to deal with.

This book already looks cool. Yay for playable kitsune, and I'm amused to see the bit about an Oriental hobgoblin nation. It reminds me of the art for them from the original hardcover Monster Manual, where the hobgoblins all looked like extras from a Kurosawa film.

Snipped good points

I think you're presuming that gods get the same amount of "power" from mortals that other extra-planar beings receive. I have presumed that one of the benefits of apotheosis in Golarion is that you receive more power from worshippers. I'm pretty sure that's the point of Asmodeus, Lamashtu and Sarenrae's ascension. Before they received little to any power from their mortal worshippers, once they underwent apotheosis, they start to milk that power. Up until that point, they received little to nothing from their worshippers.

At least, that's how I've always viewed it.

Well one (but admittedly rather vague) explanation to this could be that there are not millions of worlds out there but only those listed in the golarion system. The rest is what they call "dark tapestry". hm...

There are definitely solar systems other than the one containing Golarion. For example, the massive spaceship that crash-landed on Numeria was mot likely from elsewhere. Also, even more simply, the existence of Cthulhu in Pathfinder suggests that somewhere (somewhen?), Earth and it's solar system are out there.

Enpeze wrote:

Well one (but admittedly rather vague) explanation to this could be that there are not millions of worlds out there but only those listed in the golarion system. The rest is what they call "dark tapestry". hm...

There are definitely solar systems other than the one containing Golarion. For example, the massive spaceship that crash-landed on Numeria was mot likely from elsewhere. Also, even more simply, the existence of Cthulhu in Pathfinder suggests that somewhere (somewhen?), Earth and it's solar system are out there.

So if you are right and if we assume that there are millions of suns in the universe and billions of planets too then we can also assume that we have billions+ of pantheons but only half a dozen places where these can be put in.

Or does every pantheon have its own heavens, hells and elysiums? If yes, then you have to redraw the outer sphere map each time you introduce a new pantheon.

Or does every of the billion deities in the universe live in its usual alignment place (eg. all chaotic good deities in the universe live in elysium?)

There IS a problem IMO which should be solved by a well thought out concept or the whole new pantheon sujet looks cheesy.

Generic Villain wrote:

Enpeze wrote:

Well one (but admittedly rather vague) explanation to this could be that there are not millions of worlds out there but only those listed in the golarion system. The rest is what they call "dark tapestry". hm...

There are definitely solar systems other than the one containing Golarion. For example, the massive spaceship that crash-landed on Numeria was mot likely from elsewhere. Also, even more simply, the existence of Cthulhu in Pathfinder suggests that somewhere (somewhen?), Earth and it's solar system are out there.

So if you are right and if we assume that there are millions of suns in the universe and billions of planets too then we can also assume that we have billions+ of pantheons but only half a dozen places where these can be put in.

Or does every pantheon have its own heavens, hells and elysiums? If yes, then you have to redraw the outer sphere map each time you introduce a new pantheon.

Or does every of the billion deities in the universe live in its usual alignment place (eg. all chaotic good deities in the universe live in elysium?)

There IS a problem IMO which should be solved by a well thought out concept or the whole new pantheon sujet looks cheesy.

Alternatively, if you ignore the problem, it goes away.

Though, you could also take a page out of the religious fundamentalist's repertoire and say: "We are incapable to understand the ineffable ways of the planes and the divine logic that underpins its ways. Do not strive to name and direct the ways of the gods, for it is blasphemous and spoils your appetite."

I have presumed that one of the benefits of apotheosis in Golarion is that you receive more power from worshippers.

I don't think there's been any indication that that mortal worship "powers" the Pathfinder deities. IIRC, one of the developers even stated that it did not.

I'm definitely looking forward to this! I can't wait to see the Golarion-ized version of Asia. The world is growing, and it's very cool . . .

this and the magic book look amazing

Alternatively, if you ignore the problem, it goes away.

Yes, ignoring is always a good way to get rid of problems. :)

No, seriously. Its not a big problem, but rather a small one. Nonetheless I hope it will be adressed in some way by the authors.

So if you are right and if we assume that there are millions of suns in the universe and billions of planets too then we can also assume that we have billions+ of pantheons but only half a dozen places where these can be put in.

It's been mentioned multiple times that the entire Material Plane (all those billions of planets you mentioned) is just a tiny fraction of the Multiverse (Heaven, Hell, Elysium, the Astral/Ethereal/Elemental Planes, etc.). To put it in analogy form, the Material Plane is just a small island in a vast sea that is the Multiverse.

Also, to borrow a page from Forgotten Realms, who's to say that, for example, Urgathoa is only worshiped on the planet of Golarion? Maybe she has different aspects, venerated in different ways, on a hundred different worlds. Maybe on Earth we know her as the Norse Goddess Hel, for example.

Thus, even if there are literally billions of pantheons, they would have no problem all fitting in the Outer Planes. So yes, Asmodeus is the ruler of Hell, but in his (impossibly vast) kingdom, there are several territories ruled over by independent deities. Each territory could easily be as large as a planet.

Or does every pantheon have its own heavens, hells and elysiums? If yes, then you have to redraw the outer sphere map each time you introduce a new pantheon.

Or does every of the billion deities in the universe live in its usual alignment place (eg. all chaotic good deities in the universe live in elysium?)

Nope, there's room for everyone.

Also, to borrow a page from Forgotten Realms, who's to say that, for example, Urgathoa is only worshiped on the planet of Golarion? Maybe she has different aspects, venerated in different ways, on a hundred different worlds.

Official answers only come from the Paizo guys mind you, but this is the approach that I would take with the deities who don't have specifically Golarion-based origins. Other gods exist worshipped on other parts of Golarion or other worlds in the Material plane, and by virtue of the campaign setting being based on Golarion, we don't hear much elaboration on many of them, but they're out there.

Invariably some of those "core" gods -the older ones- are going to be really big players on multiple worlds in various names and aspects. Pharasma is the judge of dead souls for instance, and it's been stated that she gets souls from other worlds, not just Golarion. I would say that she gets them from all worlds unless something wierd happens, though it's perfectly reasonable that there might be servitors of Pharasma worshipped as a god or goddess of death on other worlds who act in her place in some capacity, and gradually transition those populations over to Pharasma herself. All sorts of ways to look at it, though Pharasma is ultimately at the top.

Likewise Asmodeus is lord of Hell regardless of where on the Material you are. The Four are the same Four Horsemen regardless of where on the Material you are, and they still want to eat you regardless of whether you taste of barbecue, soy, or bilaterial izigimi tendril fungus.

The Four are the same Four Horsemen regardless of where on the Material you are, and they still want to eat you regardless of whether you taste of barbecue, soy, or bilaterial izigimi tendril fungus.

Which is kind of the point. The Four Horsemen apparently have a MUCH wider sphere of influence than the vast majority of actual deities.

Which is kind of the point. The Four Horsemen apparently have a MUCH wider sphere of influence than the vast majority of actual deities.

Again, you're assuming that deities are only worshiped on a single planet. While this may be the case with "new" deities like Norgorber and Iomedae, the same cannot be said about gods like Asmodeus, Pharasma, and Desna. Heck, Desna is basically the goddess of outer space, and her "...true home is on the Material Plane among the stars" (The Great Beyond).

hogarth wrote:

I totally want to play a big, fat wayang. Is there going to be a chart showing how big my wayang can be?

Yes, just as there were charts for race sizes in the Core Rulebook. But don't get your hopes up that much... wayangs are Small. The closest analogue to them in the Core is a gnome... but "reversed" in theme. (They're tied to the Shadow plane, not the First World.)

They do puppet shows?

Oooh! New races, lands to explore, gods, allies and enemies. Sold!

Quick question: will the Tian Xia Darklands be detailed or mentioned in the gazetteer?

We finally get to see the origin of the Onis, and more non-human Races!

As to the furry part, hell, Gnomes are wingless fairies, Dwarves are hairy mole-men, Elves are forest spirits, Halflings are hairless, tail-less rat-people and Half-Orcs are the personification of rage and sorrow descended from Boar/Wolf Humanoids.

Please don't mix a small group of deviants up with hundreds of years of mythology and history!

James Jacobs wrote:

hogarth wrote:

I totally want to play a big, fat wayang. Is there going to be a chart showing how big my wayang can be?

Yes, just as there were charts for race sizes in the Core Rulebook. But don't get your hopes up that much... wayangs are Small. The closest analogue to them in the Core is a gnome... but "reversed" in theme. (They're tied to the Shadow plane, not the First World.)

They do puppet shows?

That's it... I want to make a female wayang monk who's obsessed with a male wayang expert who likes water. And of course she attacks any female of any race who looks at him funny (or cracks on her weight)

Will this book have racial traits or feats for the five new races?

Will it have any feats, magic items, or spells?

Will it talk about the amazon like culture that I think lives in the southern part of the continent?

Is it safe to assume that any asian style weapons/armor will be covered in Ultimate combat?

Will this book have any monsters in it?

Oooh! New races, lands to explore, gods, allies and enemies. Sold!

Quick question: will the Tian Xia Darklands be detailed or mentioned in the gazetteer?

Tian Xia, like most (not ALL) other continents and oceans on Golarion, does indeed have Darklands under it.

We finally get to see the origin of the Onis, and more non-human Races!

As to the furry part, hell, Gnomes are wingless fairies, Dwarves are hairy mole-men, Elves are forest spirits, Halflings are hairless, tail-less rat-people and Half-Orcs are the personification of rage and sorrow descended from Boar/Wolf Humanoids.

Please don't mix a small group of deviants up with hundreds of years of mythology and history!

You'll only have to wait until Gen Con to learn about oni; there's a big article about them in Pathfinder #49 to help kick off the Jade Regent Adventure Path (the oni play a HUGE role in that AP).

Will this book have racial traits or feats for the five new races?

Will it have any feats, magic items, or spells?

Will it talk about the amazon like culture that I think lives in the southern part of the continent?

Is it safe to assume that any asian style weapons/armor will be covered in Ultimate combat?

Will this book have any monsters in it?

The five new PC races (including the tengu, which isn't really a NEW race) will all be formatted in the same way as the Core Rulebook presents elves and gnomes and the like—each will have one page of flavor and rules.

There are no feats, magic items, or spells in this book. No room.

The amazonian culture of Holomog is in southern Garund, not Tian Xia... so nope; they're not detailed in this book.

Asian style weapons and armor will indeed be in Ultimate Combat—hard to do a ninja or a samurai without them.

No monsters in this book.

There are no feats, magic items, or spells in this book. No room.

Can you fit these in the AP?

James Jacobs wrote:

There are no feats, magic items, or spells in this book. No room.

Can you fit these in the AP?

In some cases, yes. There'll be a LOT of Tian Xia magic items in Jade Regent. As for feats and spells... Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat already cover that pretty extensively, but we'll be finding a way to put a few world-specific additions to those categories here and there.

Oh the amazonian race is in southern Garund oops my bad. I do not know why I thought they were in Tian xia.

Holomog, what a strange name, I am still interested in this one but I gues it will be a while before we find out more.

Will the racial information for the new races include APG style alternate racial abilities, alternate favored class bonuses, and racial traits?

The only thing for the races in this book are there base stats. So no traits, alternate racial abilities/favored class bonuses.

Will the racial information for the new races include APG style alternate racial abilities, alternate favored class bonuses, and racial traits?

Nope; that'd be a topic for another book far down the line. The new races are going to be more or less presented here for the first time, so there won't be much more info about them than what you got about elves and gnomes and the like in the Core Rulebook—although the non-rules stuff will be more specific regarding actual world flavor and the like.

Following up on the discussion of various religions, is the Dragon Empire's cosmology essentially the same? I noticed that Ultimate Magic included the five element wheel (wood, water, fire, metal, and earth) and I was curious if the other side of the world expanded on that in any way.

Following up on the discussion of various religions, is the Dragon Empire's cosmology essentially the same? I noticed that Ultimate Magic included the five element wheel (wood, water, fire, metal, and earth) and I was curious if the other side of the world expanded on that in any way.

There are actually a couple of element "wheels" in Tian Xia. Cosmology is somewhat different as well, but in other ways it's the same.

Very excited about this book!

There are actually a couple of element "wheels" in Tian Xia. Cosmology is somewhat different as well, but in other ways it's the same.

Hmm... does that mean an Elemental Plane of Wood/Metal? That is, will the Great Beyond be somehow different in Tian Xia than in Avistan? Or will Tian Xia have closer ties to certain regions of the planes? For example, an Oni inhabited region of the Abyss, a Celestial Beauracracy-inspired area in Heaven/Hell, etc.

the Wayang definitely have my imagination running and the kingdoms described in this book sound really neat. Kaoling sounds like a perfect choice for an evil empire.

dare I ask

Goblin Ninja Clan?

This fall, Paizo has found a way to take SOOOO much of my money. I am such a junky for your products and you just keep feeding my habit!

There are actually a couple of element "wheels" in Tian Xia. Cosmology is somewhat different as well, but in other ways it's the same.

How in the hell is the cosmology different? The entire planar structure of the multiverse re-arranges itself if you move a few thousand miles on a one single planet?

How in the hell is the cosmology different? The entire planar structure of the multiverse re-arranges itself if you move a few thousand miles on a one single planet?

Really, dude? The Lovecraftian horror is bothered by localized physical laws?

James Jacobs wrote:

There are actually a couple of element "wheels" in Tian Xia. Cosmology is somewhat different as well, but in other ways it's the same.

How in the hell is the cosmology different? The entire planar structure of the multiverse re-arranges itself if you move a few thousand miles on a one single planet?

It doesn't have to change...it can be the same, the difference is just in the perception of it. Its like going down a street every day for years and thinking you know everything on it, but then you meet someone who tells you about the great restaurant in the basement of one of the buildings that you never noticed before. It was there the whole time, you just didn't know to look for it.

James Jacobs wrote:

There are actually a couple of element "wheels" in Tian Xia. Cosmology is somewhat different as well, but in other ways it's the same.

How in the hell is the cosmology different? The entire planar structure of the multiverse re-arranges itself if you move a few thousand miles on a one single planet?

Right, what Robert Little said. Just like on Earth, where which cosmology was in play depended on where you were. So, in Tian Xia, they will have a completely different worldview. It doesn't mean that Golarion is shaped like a banana and orbits a star made of string cheese, it just means they interpret what's out there differently.

And the whole "alternate element wheel" thing is something we've already seen, in Ultimate Magic.

I don't know the particulars regarding the cosmology bit, but here's my thoughts without the benefit of any inside details. We already know the structure of the cosmology from a more or less objective viewpoint in the grand scheme of things. It's possible that the nested shell structure of the elemental planes of the Inner Sphere might simply be known by different names, or imperfectly understood, such as a portion of elemental earth bordering elemental fire being called a plane of metal for instance. Perhaps they perceive the First World in some capacity as an elemental plane of wood. I wouldn't expect the entire multiverse to change based on what portion of a single Material world you died upon.

James has the cards and we'll see what sort of hand he has eventually. :)

Before I say anything, I want to point out that part of my question isn't really in the "spirit" of this product, so I hope no offense is taken and if anyone feels the need to remove my post, I wouldn't be opposed to it.

As a GM, I've always been more interested in making up my own worlds, my own "sandbox," if you will, instead of learning to play within someone else's sandbox.

I'm always interested in options for my players and my NPCs, but prior to this particular release, I never felt like trying to extract Golarion-specific material in an attempt to adapt it to my own world. At the same time, in my opinion none of the other setting-specific books ever had something as ... transferable as new Player Races.

It is in this spirit that I ask my question: Regarding the four new races (and the Tengu), are there any plans to:

1) Include Alternate Favored Class bonuses, Alternate Racial Traits, class archetypes, prestige classes, or Feats for these races in the Gazetteer?

2) Include any of these races, alternate favored class bonuses, etc. within the upcoming Advanced Race Guide?

To be honest, I would rather purchase a setting-ambiguous guide with these races in them if possible, and I'd be willing to take the five month waiting period as punishment for my diabolical preferences. However, if those races won't be in the Advanced Race Guide, I'd be much more likely to purchase this product (what can I say? I'm a sucker for player options). Hopefully my preferences alone don't alter the plans for the Advanced Race Guide, but it would be a nice thing to know so I can purchase the product that is best suited to my tastes.

It is in this spirit that I ask my question: Regarding the four new races (and the Tengu), are there any plans to:

1) Include Alternate Favored Class bonuses, Alternate Racial Traits, class archetypes, prestige classes, or Feats for these races in the Gazetteer?

2) Include any of these races, alternate favored class bonuses, etc. within the upcoming Advanced Race Guide?

To be honest, I would rather purchase a setting-ambiguous guide with these races in them if possible, and I'd be willing to take the five month waiting period as punishment for my diabolical preferences. However, if those races won't be in the Advanced Race Guide, I'd be much more likely to purchase this product (what can I say? I'm a sucker for player options). Hopefully my preferences alone don't alter the plans for the Advanced Race Guide, but it would be a nice thing to know so I can purchase the product that is best suited to my tastes.

My suspicion is that they will get cursory coverage in the Gazetter with enough info to play, be reduxed in Bestiary 3 as PC-appropriate races, and then get coverage as spotlight races in ARG.

James Jacobs wrote:

There are actually a couple of element "wheels" in Tian Xia. Cosmology is somewhat different as well, but in other ways it's the same.

Hmm... does that mean an Elemental Plane of Wood/Metal? That is, will the Great Beyond be somehow different in Tian Xia than in Avistan? Or will Tian Xia have closer ties to certain regions of the planes? For example, an Oni inhabited region of the Abyss, a Celestial Beauracracy-inspired area in Heaven/Hell, etc.

Nope, it doesn't automatically mean an Elemental Plane of Wood/Metal, or an Elemental Plane of Void either (for the Minkai elements). That said, the Great Beyond is so unimaginably vast that there's certainly room for close to an infinite number of outer planes to support various cultures and beliefs.

James Jacobs wrote:

There are actually a couple of element "wheels" in Tian Xia. Cosmology is somewhat different as well, but in other ways it's the same.

How in the hell is the cosmology different? The entire planar structure of the multiverse re-arranges itself if you move a few thousand miles on a one single planet?

As I mentioned just above, a different method of organizing elements doesn't change the Great Beyond at all. You can have a five element philosophy without changing the elemental planes. Conversely, you can also ADD elemental planes if you want as well, since it's pretty clear that there are far more other planes out there than the people of the Inner Sea know about.

How exactly this'll all work out you'll just have to wait and see when the "Dragon Empires Gazetteer" comes out (mostly because that book is still being written, so I haven't actually nailed down how it's all gonna work out regarding adding Metal, Wood, or Void to the elements).

It is in this spirit that I ask my question: Regarding the four new races (and the Tengu), are there any plans to:

1) Include Alternate Favored Class bonuses, Alternate Racial Traits, class archetypes, prestige classes, or Feats for these races in the Gazetteer?

2) Include any of these races, alternate favored class bonuses, etc. within the upcoming Advanced Race Guide?

To be honest, I would rather purchase a setting-ambiguous guide with these races in them if possible, and I'd be willing to take the five month waiting period as punishment for my diabolical preferences. However, if those races won't be in the Advanced Race Guide, I'd be much more likely to purchase this product (what can I say? I'm a sucker for player options). Hopefully my preferences alone don't alter the plans for the Advanced Race Guide, but it would be a nice thing to know so I can purchase the product that is best suited to my tastes.

1) This is FAR beyond the scope of what we can do with these new PC races in the Dragon Empires book. Information on this type of content will instead be in the upcoming Advanced Race Guide.

2) Yup; the goal is to include ALL zero-HD races in the Advanced Race Guide. That includes all the new races we're introducing in Dragon Empires.

You'll get a chance to purchase these races in a setting-ambiguous guide in the Advanced Race Guide... but if we weren't doing a Dragon Empires book and the Jade Regent AP, those races wouldn't be in there at all. If you can't wait to see rules for things like kitsune and wayangs, your first chance to check them out remains the Dragon Empires Gazetteer.

My suspicion is that they will get cursory coverage in the Gazetter with enough info to play, be reduxed in Bestiary 3 as PC-appropriate races, and then get coverage as spotlight races in ARG.

Close, but no.

These five races are core races for Tian Xia. They're treated in the same way as the core games treats elves, gnomes, halflings, and the like. They'll have a page of info in Dragon Empires each (just as elves, etc. have a page of info in the Core Rules), and they'll ALL be expanded upon somewhat in the Advanced Race Guide.

But just as we didn't include entries in the Bestiary for humans or halflings or gnomes, we won't include entries for wayang or kitsune or samsarans or nagaji in Bestairy 3.

That we included tengu in Bestiary 1 was more a result of us wanting to get tengu into the game early, at a time where we weren't sure we'd ever be able to expand Golarion beyond the Inner Sea in any appreciable way.