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I'm not sure if it's supposed to work this way, but:
Spark. It's a cantrip with a Verbal or a Somatic component. Adding Still or Silent would make it a 1st level spell, and Magical Lineage makes it a cantrip again. So now every round something within thirty feet of you will catch fire. Without any indication it was you who did it.
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Magus likes to have it w/ Shocking Grasp, to combine w/ the metamagic feat that extends CL cap for effects by +5 levels. Level 10 Magus getting 10d6 damage and a 15-20 crit range (spellstrike w/ keen scimitar), out of a level 1 slot is pretty nice.
No it doesn't...it's a +1 level adjustment for +5 level cap. You still need the levels for it. You don't just get that 10d6. To compare, Scorching Ray is level 2 (as this would be if not for the trait), does 12d6 at level 11, and is a ranged touch (which are generally weaker than melee touch due to not having to get into melee) spell, and didn't cost you a feat. The shocking grasp isn't hit by energy resistance 3 separate times, to be fair. Still, definitely balanced.
It's a nice synergy, but it's not anything devious.
Alright heres the gist of it;
Shocking Grasp
School evocation [electricity]; Level magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range touch
Target creature or object touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yesDESCRIPTION
Your successful melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 5d6). When delivering the jolt, you gain a +3 bonus on attack rolls if the opponent is wearing metal armor (or is carrying a metal weapon or is made of metal).
So this is 5d6 at level 5, crits on a nat 20, affected once by SR, deals electric damage (obviously)
just your run of the mill spell.Your spells can go beyond several normal limitations.
Benefit: An intensified spell increases the maximum number of damage dice by 5 levels. You must actually have sufficient caster levels to surpass the maximum in order to benefit from this feat. No other variables of the spell are affected, and spells that inflict damage that is not modified by caster level are not affected by this feat.
Level Increase: +1 (an intensified spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.)
This is the metamagic feat you apply using Magical Lineage. You get 10d6 by level 10
with Magical Lineage, this is a Level 1 spell and still par for the course.K thats the spell. Here is the Mangus.
Spellstrike (Su)At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.
This is what allows you to actually cast the spell as a weapon and what allows you to have the 15-20 threat range, if you have a keen scimitar for example.
The Mangus can utilise this but he is also the only one to be able to utilise this and it is actually quite common for a Mangus. There is no house rules and its all legal and generally not a problem for GMs.
Hopefully that cleared up the confusion and showed you a new trick you can use with ML.
Now here is one of my favorites, the alchemist has a goblin only variant called Fire Bomber. One of the abilities this gives you is Elemental Body at early entry (level 3) That is just within potion range. Magical Lineage with extended spell. When you drink the potion, you get to turn into a Fire Elemental for 18 minutes at lvl 8 going up by 3 minutes every level. This has to be a potion as metamagic feats do not work on extracts :( and requires the extended potions discovery, later the permanent potion 8D
No it doesn't...it's a +1 level adjustment for +5 level cap. You still need the levels for it. You don't just get that 10d6. To compare, Scorching Ray is level 2 (as this would be if not for the trait), does 12d6 at level 11, and is a ranged touch (which are generally weaker than melee touch due to not having to get into melee) spell, and didn't cost you a feat. The shocking grasp isn't hit by energy resistance 3 separate times, to be fair. Still, definitely balanced.
It's a nice synergy, but it's not anything devious.
I can't find where I read it (and it's late), but here's the gist of the broken 'rules' (which are more like guidelines for home-brewing spells):
- Spells are balanced around damage, targets (single/aoe), range, energy type (some more easily resisted than others), etc. The first two are most important, obv.
- When comparing spells, you compare to other spells of same level. No level 1 spell comes anywhere near 10d6, so, that would make this combination vastly superior than all others.
- Not to mention 15-20 crit range, which is way too good (vs. scorching ray, 20 crit range).
- So, with that damage, crit range, and being affected only once by electric DR (which is less common than fire DR), the average damage is higher than Scorching R.Hence, broken.
I'm confused. You're talking about home-brewing spells, but nothing like that is being discussed. It's a metamagic feat being used with a 1st level spell.
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Now here is one of my favorites, the alchemist has a goblin only variant called Fire Bomber. One of the abilities this gives you is Elemental Body at early entry (level 3) That is just within potion range. Magical Lineage with extended spell. When you drink the potion, you get to turn into a Fire Elemental for 18 minutes at lvl 8 going up by 3 minutes every level. This has to be a potion as metamagic feats do not work on extracts :( and requires the extended potions discovery, later the permanent potion 8D
Elemental Body has a range of personal, it cannot be made into a potion.
"Hence, broken."
There is nothing broken or overpowered on it.
The spell shocking grasp levels up to an 5d6 as a level 1 spell, just as how magic missile or later fireball also improves with more levels. The metamagic feat StreamOfTheSky talks of is Intensified Spell with a +1 level modifier what doesn't do anything else than to increase the "level cap" on dices by 5. As example an intensified fire ball would the normally maximum 10d6 damage get increased to 15d6, but that wizard would still have to be level 15 to benefit from this increase.
You have to know that Magical Lineage is to lower such a +1 modifier to zero, what means this feat would allow a spell get this kind of metamagic modifier, or maybe that of Lingering/Extend/Elemental/Toppling Spell or similar +1 modifier feats.
The metamagic works perfectly fine using it on Shocking Grasp, which is a touch range spell anyway and thus unlikely to be used by most spellcasters a lot. Magical Lineage has a great variety in how it could be used, as example picking Charm Person as the spell it affects would allow a lvl 1 Charm Person to be modified by Bouncing Spell without any spell level modification, similar to how the above example with Shocking Grasp works.
Remember to stack in Wayang Spellhunter with that Magical Lineage.
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No it doesn't...it's a +1 level adjustment for +5 level cap. You still need the levels for it. You don't just get that 10d6. To compare, Scorching Ray is level 2 (as this would be if not for the trait), does 12d6 at level 11, and is a ranged touch (which are generally weaker than melee touch due to not having to get into melee) spell, and didn't cost you a feat. The shocking grasp isn't hit by energy resistance 3 separate times, to be fair. Still, definitely balanced.
It's a nice synergy, but it's not anything devious.
I can't find where I read it (and it's late), but here's the gist of the broken 'rules' (which are more like guidelines for home-brewing spells):
- Spells are balanced around damage, targets (single/aoe), range, energy type (some more easily resisted than others), etc. The first two are most important, obv.
- When comparing spells, you compare to other spells of same level. No level 1 spell comes anywhere near 10d6, so, that would make this combination vastly superior than all others.
- Not to mention 15-20 crit range, which is way too good (vs. scorching ray, 20 crit range).
- So, with that damage, crit range, and being affected only once by electric DR (which is less common than fire DR), the average damage is higher than Scorching R.Hence, broken.
You don't know anything about magi.
Whoa whoa whoa so if you min/max a Tian Bard 1/Magi X with Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage on a Shocking Grasp then you have a Level 0 pseudo "cantrip" doing 10d6??? Im smelling the scent of cheese or overlooking something so now im interested =D
You can't lower the spell level using this method, if you reduced it below 0, it becomes 0.
Whoa whoa whoa so if you min/max a Tian Bard 1/Magi X with Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage on a Shocking Grasp then you have a Level 0 pseudo "cantrip" doing 10d6??? Im smelling the scent of cheese or overlooking something so now im interested =D
Developers have already indicated that it wasn't their intent. However as it stands you can reduce the spell level to 0. However there is no point considering that the spell still isn't considered a cantrip and therefore the spell is expended when you use it.
Developers have already indicated that it wasn't their intent. However as it stands you can reduce the spell level to 0. However there is no point considering that the spell still isn't considered a cantrip and therefore the spell is expended when you use it.
+1
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I like VRMH's idea of spontaneous combustion. My personal favorite is Mage Armor, which lasts hours per level. For a low level character (especially for squishy wizards, who ave no viable way o access armor at this point) being able to cast a spell that is essentially a ghost-proof chainshirt without any of the armor check penalties for HOURS at a time as a 1st level spell is pretty darn awesome. And even at higher levels, if you play, let's say, a Summoner, who only has so many 2nd or 3rd level spells to sling around, and say you want to give your Eidolon a boost to AC for the entire day without losing your ability to cast an extra Web or Barkskin or something, an extended mage armor works pretty well. Also, that's the sort of spell I use every single day without exception if I'm playing a Summoner or Sorcerer...so...I'd do that.
Or a favorite evocation you can intensify works too. Ghost sound is also nice, for the same reasons as Spark.
I thought of one frostbite maybe for a or other character and take reach spell.
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This all depends upon how you are trying to synergize with your build (other feats you are taking).
Also, when it comes to how this works with metamagic feats, it's useful to keep three things in mind as well:
First, the real benefit of this trait is lowering spell slot usage. This primarily means that you want to choose a spell you will be casting with the metamagic multiple times because each casting represents an increase in effectiveness. If you cast efficiently only once a day, how efficient are you actually being to when you cast efficiently 10 times a day? This is why I would stay away from spells like Mage Armor.
Secondly, consider your metamagic feats and their applications. If you can apply multiple metamagic feats for different usage, you are getting more versatility out of your trait. Can the spell be Heightened, Maximized, Empowered, Elemental, Dazing, etc? How many metamagic feats would you like to apply at once because you should also keep in mind that the effective level cannot go above level 9, but the traits can give you wiggle room for better spells this way.
A large number of metamagic feats affect variable dice rolls, and because of this evocation tends to have better options. Also remember that necromancy has some spells that do variable dice ability damage.
Finally, keep in mind the other feats you will be taking. If you are going to take Spell Perfection, I would suggest something that benefits from Quicken or Maximize. Spell Perfection also increases your Spell Focus/Penetration abilities and this could be a factor too.
Since the selection is all circumstantial and should synergize with your build, let me give you an example of mine. I made a blue dragon style Dragon Disciple that actually focused on natural attacks. Due to Bloodline Arcana, I do an additional +1 damage for every electricity spell. I can also deliver touch attack spells through my natural attacks as per the normal rules of touch spells.
At level 15 with Magical Lineage and Spell Perfection, I am able to cast Quickened Intensified Empowered Shocking Grasp as a swift action prior to my full attack as only a 3rd level spell slot. This adds an additional 67 average damage (30-105 range) with no saving throw to my fairly impressive 6 natural attacks in Form of the Dragon II (7 with Haste, and over 40 strength depending upon buffs).
If I were a different type of character, I never would have chosen this spell. Essentially, build it around how you are going to be using your caster. It's a trait and a feat tax, so it should be an essential part of your play style.
Ill Omen was my spell of choice for Magical Lineage. I knew from the start that I wanted to Quicken it before casting things like Baleful Polymorph or Dominate Person.
3rd Level Swift Action Ill Omen = very, very useful and its usefullness only gets better as you advance in level.
I always thought it would be neat to put it on True Strike, to lessen the cost of Quicken True Strike, so that you receive a +20 before any action you take. Then, just go around Disarming, Tripping, or Grappling to your hearts desire.
What about putting Disruptive Spell on a little acid splash? With Magical Lineage or Wayang Spellhunter you could keep it as a cantrip, and cast it freely to essentially lock down an enemy spellcaster.
If that's a little too cheesy, imagine a sorcerer with both traits applied to Dispel Magic. You could cast it Silent and Still for the same cost as a regular casting, or even Heighten it by two levels for free.
Intensified, Toppling Magic Missiles could be fun, if you split the missiles among a group of enemies.
Even for the standard Magus usage on Shocking Grasp, being able to both Intensify and Elemental-adjust the spell would help when up against lightning-resistant enemies, and you could even shift it to take advantage of opposing-element weaknesses.
Or would there be a problem with applying both traits to one spell? Traits usually don't stack if they provide the same bonus, but the wording is different... Still, a Magus with the ability to tweak both Shocking Grasp and Frostbite or Chill Touch could be useful.
I like it with summon monster 5, but that's just me.
Another possible idea to use this would be potions. the ability to add metamagic effects to potion without increasing the spell level could be quite potent especially if you can stack the two together and get higher level potions as a result (think early entry spells). a few ideas i have off the top of my head... a goblin firebomber (alchemist) could potentially take a merciful elemental body IV as a potion and therefore make it permanent at lvl 16 XD
Im actually tired, so ill think of some later, just think of early entry spells, spells up to lvl 5 that you might like and the possible effects this might have on wands per se
deuxhero is completely right.
Adding toppling spell to magic missile.
An auto hit with a free trip attempt. Considering the roll for the trip is D20 + Caster Level + Ability Score Bonus, you have a decent chance to trip something, even at higher levels.
While I do think Toppling Magic Missile is a fantastic idea that can go throughout your career, it is possible with a metamagic feat for only 3000 GP.
I would think 3000 GP is a better cost than a trait dedicated to a single spell, particularly because it limits your Spell Perfection to something that will not be that handy unless you take the trait again. My advice would be to buy the rod instead.
This would bring Quickened TS down to level 4. Then again, taking GrenMeera's advice, TS can really only be quickened, whereas a spell that can be empowered, maximized, etc., would benefit even more.
Well, I said that having versatility is something to consider, but I wouldn't discount True Strike if it works well with your build. If you end up with a fairly low attack bonus and you plan on delivering spells/damage through attacks primarily, this could be a must. However, if you are not making attack rolls often or have no foreseeable problems hitting most of the time, I would go another route.
It all depends on that character you are making.
Another piece of advice: I have noticed that for the cost of stacking metamagic feats (such as Maximize, Intensify, and Empower), third level spells will typically out damage higher level spells due to the level 9 cap limiting as many feats. This is only for a blaster build though, and spells like Enervate are still an excellent choice.
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Maybe I didn't express myself correctly: there are guidelines describing how the publishers envision spell balance. The Golden Rule (their name, not mine): "Compare your spell to similar spells, and to other spells of its intended level." From that, it follows that if you increase damage, range, number of targets, or add an effect, decrease any/several of the other attributes, to bring it back in line.
All in all, a give and take. What you're describing seems to go against these guidelines (since you would end up with a patently superior spell), and, given that it runs counter to these guidelines, would seem like an unintended consequence.
But regardless, maybe it would've been more conservative to express my original point this way: MY DM takes balance issues quite seriously, and if I tried to pull that off, he would whip up these guidelines and be like, 'nope, it may be in the rules, but this is clearly over the top, as per these guidelines: that shocking grasp is way beyond anything available at that level.'
I think you're missing the point. You're trying to compare spell vs spell to see if the combo is still balanced as a level 1 spell. But when you're talking about a combination of a spell, trait, and feat, the investment to get that benefit is so high, that it IS balanced for it to be more powerful than a spell of the same level.
We all agree that Shocking Grasp by itself is a balanced level 1 spell. And we know that Shocking Grasp + Magical Lineage + Intensify Metamagic is a more powerful level 1 spell than just Shocking Grasp, provided the caster is at least level 6. But the investment of a feat and trait to justifies the extra power. The caster has invested a feat and a trait to make Shocking Grasp more powerful instead of investing them in something else for his character. He's really good at using Shocking Grasp, at the expense of developing his character in other ways.
Sadly, GrenMeera, Lesser Toppling Metamagic Rods don't exist, otherwise they would be awesome.
Which spell to take is completely dependent on class and role. A quickened debuff is an awesome ability. A quickened buff is too, especially one that ups damage significantly.
There are diminishing returns as you look at higher level spells, but some of those spells are pretty awesome.
Something like this benefits the most when you can cast the spell as many times as possible.
So get a ring of wizardry too.
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Yup. I haven't played with magus characters very often, but as I understand it, the Magical Lineage + Shocking Grasp combo is pretty much standard in PFS.
I even considered Magical Lineage + Shocking Grasp for a sorcerer character, with the intent of using Reach Metamagic to turn it into a ranged touch attack right from level 1. Toss in the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype with the Varisian Tattoo boosting your evocation spells by +1 CL, and that's a 2d6 ranged touch at level 1. Add in Spell Specialization and Intensify at levels 3 and 5, and by level 5, you're shooting 8d6 Shocking Grasps from 45 feet away as a ranged touch attack using a level 2 spell slot.
But I decided not to go that route, because it was too much effort to put everything into a single spell that way.
I even considered Magical Lineage + Shocking Grasp for a sorcerer character, with the intent of using Reach Metamagic to turn it into a ranged touch attack right from level 1. Toss in the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype with the Varisian Tattoo boosting your evocation spells by +1 CL, and that's a 2d6 ranged touch at level 1. Add in Spell Specialization and Intensify at levels 3 and 5, and by level 5, you're shooting 8d6 Shocking Grasps from 45 feet away as a ranged touch attack using a level 2 spell slot.
That'd be 6d6+2. It's +2 damage for Spell Specialization, not +2 damage dice.
But I decided not to go that route, because it was too much effort to put everything into a single spell that way.
Yeah, I understand a bit of what you mean. I ~DID~ go that route, but I only believe it wasn't a one trick pony because of the melee abilities of being Dragon Disciple. You can see my usage above.
Sadly, GrenMeera, Lesser Toppling Metamagic Rods don't exist, otherwise they would be awesome.
I was assuming that it's not in the equipment lists because the feat came out in in Ultimate Magic, but is there anything particularly stopping this item from being made? I suppose this falls under GM Fiat due to magic item creation.
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I even considered Magical Lineage + Shocking Grasp for a sorcerer character, with the intent of using Reach Metamagic to turn it into a ranged touch attack right from level 1. Toss in the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype with the Varisian Tattoo boosting your evocation spells by +1 CL, and that's a 2d6 ranged touch at level 1. Add in Spell Specialization and Intensify at levels 3 and 5, and by level 5, you're shooting 8d6 Shocking Grasps from 45 feet away as a ranged touch attack using a level 2 spell slot.That'd be 6d6+2. It's +2 damage for Spell Specialization, not +2 damage dice.
But I decided not to go that route, because it was too much effort to put everything into a single spell that way.Yeah, I understand a bit of what you mean. I ~DID~ go that route, but I only believe it wasn't a one trick pony because of the melee abilities of being Dragon Disciple. You can see my usage above.
Wrong Spell Specialization. The feat by that name in Ultimate Magic is +2 caster levels. With that Varisian Tattoo and Intensify Metamagic, that's 8d6 damage at level 5, just like I said.
I can't find where I read it (and it's late), but here's the gist of the broken 'rules' (which are more like guidelines for home-brewing spells):- Spells are balanced around damage, targets (single/aoe), range, energy type (some more easily resisted than others), etc. The first two are most important, obv.
- When comparing spells, you compare to other spells of same level. No level 1 spell comes anywhere near 10d6, so, that would make this combination vastly superior than all others.
- Not to mention 15-20 crit range, which is way too good (vs. scorching ray, 20 crit range).
- So, with that damage, crit range, and being affected only once by electric DR (which is less common than fire DR), the average damage is higher than Scorching R.Hence, broken.
If I might ask, what do you think is "broken"?
Is it a 1st level spell that can do 5d6 at lv 5 with a melee touch attack? What do you think of a 1st level spell that can do 5d4 in a 15' cone with NO attack?
Is it a 2nd level spell that can do 10d6 at lv 10 with a melee touch attack? What do you think of a 2nd level spell that can do 12d6 with a ranged touch attack?
Is it a class that, at lv 10, can do 35+ damage on a single attack (critting on a 15) using a 3 class abilities, half a feat, and spending not one, but TWO limited resources? What do you think of a class that can use 4 of it's class abilities to do the same damage, with the same crit, at the same level on EVERY attack All Day Long?
I'm curious.
Wrong Spell Specialization. The feat by that name in Ultimate Magic is +2 caster levels. With that Varisian Tattoo and Intensify Metamagic, that's 8d6 damage at level 5, just like I said.
Oops, I knew something was off when I searched the SRD. I just took what I found for granted despite feeling like it wasn't what I expected. Not sure why a third party feat shows up higher on the search algorithm, but I now know not to make that mistake again.
I apologize for the false correction. Thanks for clearing that up.