Born of Two Worlds

Tuesday, July 24, 2018

As some of you have no doubt noticed, we haven't said much about half-elves and half-orcs except to confirm that they'll be part of the Pathfinder Playtest. Of all of the ancestry choices in Pathfinder, these were two of the trickiest to design. With the way that the feats are structured, it would be easy enough to just list the feats from both parents (plus some unique options), but that quickly led to cherry-picking the best of both. Moreover, that approach didn't address the base statistics of the ancestry that are very important to overall balance, such as starting hit points and speed.

In the end, we decided to make both half-elves and half-orcs an addition to the human ancestry. You start by selecting human, then take the corresponding heritage feat to represent your diverse ancestry. Let's take a look at the half-elf feat.

Half-Elf Feat 1

Heritage, Human

Either one of your parents was an elf, or one or both were half-elves. You have pointed ears and other telltale signs of elven heritage. You gain the elf trait. Select two of the following benefits: elven speed (increase your Speed by 5 feet), elven tongue (add Elven to your list of languages), gifted speaker (you are trained in Diplomacy), or low-light vision (you can see in dim light as well as you can in bright light). In addition, you can select elf, half-elf, and human feats whenever you gain an ancestry feat.

Special You can select this feat twice. The second time, it loses the heritage trait and you gain the other two benefits.

This approach comes with a number of advantages. First off, it lets us make a half-elf that truly does have some of the advantages of both ancestries, while still allowing you to pick the parts that you think best represent your character's upbringing. Grew up among elves? Then picking up the Elven language makes sense. Had to explain yourself to the humans you grew up with? Then being trained in Diplomacy might be the way to go. As with all of our ancestries, we wanted the choice of being a half-elf or half-orc to be meaningful to your character and expressive of the backstory that you've decided to create. This ancestry feat gives a lot of benefits; to get similar benefits, you would normally use a general feat to pick up Adoptive Ancestry, which grants you access to the ancestry feats from another ancestry (as long as they don't have physiological requirements) to represent your deep connection to another ancestry's culture and traditions. However, being a half-elf gives you access to human feats, elf feats, and half-elf feats (including feats with physiological components), as well as two additional benefits.

At this point, you might be saying, wait, what about humans in general? Let's take a look at some of their options. At its core, human is a very flexible ancestry, with choices like Natural Ambition to gain an extra 1st-level class feat, General Training to gain an extra 1st-level general feat, and Skilled to gain training in two additional skills. However, humans also have fun options for particular builds, like this one for a character who wants to reduce the penalties for being untrained.

Clever Improviser Feat 1

Human

You've learned how to handle situations where you're out of your depth. You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to checks for skills in which you're untrained.

Of course, this approach for half-elves and half-orcs means that we needed to include a few orc feats in the book so players would get the complete experience of being a half-orc. Take a look at this classic feat.

[[R]] Orc Ferocity Feat 1

Orc

Frequency once per day

Trigger You're reduced to 0 Hit Points.


Fierceness in battle runs through your blood, and you refuse to fall from your injuries. When this feat is triggered, you avoid being knocked out and remain at 1 Hit Point.

This allows the half-orc to stay in the fight after taking a felling blow, even a really big hit or a critically failed save against a dragon's breath attack!

In addition to allowing you to choose any feat from both ancestries, we were also able to design a few ancestry feats specifically for half-elves and half-orcs. Take a look at this half-elf feat.

Inspire Imitation Feat 5

Half-Elf

You inspire your allies to great feats through your own actions. Whenever you critically succeed at a skill check, you automatically qualify to take the Aid reaction when attempting to help an ally at the same skill check, even without spending an action to prepare to do so.

This means that when you critically succeed, you can Aid your ally at no extra cost to yourself, which is particularly useful if your ally needs some help doing something at which you excel.

Beyond what this means for half-elves and half-orcs, using an ancestry feat to unlock a more diverse heritage gives us a lot of options for the future. For instance, aasimars, tieflings, and other planar scions come from a wide variety of ancestries in Golarion, instead of just defaulting to human. In Pathfinder First Edition, there's a sidebar to that effect, but it provides no mechanical adjustments for non-human planar scions beyond their size category. The playtest treatment would allow you to build a character whose ancestry really reflects their combined heritage. And if your setting has half-elves and half-orcs where the other parent isn't human, say half-orc/half-dwarf characters, you can just allow the half-orc feat for dwarf characters and the rest of the work is already taken care of. This also opens up a lot of design space (in the form of feats) to explore what otherworldly parentage might mean, giving you different options based on what type of outsider has influenced your heritage, similar to the popular subcategories of aasimar and tieflings (pitborn, musetouched, and so on). Having a solar in the family might grant access to entirely different feats than if your ancestors were blessed by a hound archon.

Now, this approach is a little different than what we've done in the past, so we are going to be asking a few questions about this through surveys during the playtest. We're keen to hear what you think about half-elves and half-orcs in the playtest. Why not roll one up and give it a try?

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

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Conceptually I like the idea and potential design space for ancestry archetypes. Feels like this implementation needs some refinement, but I like where you're going with it


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Anyone find it weird you can only become an "Adopted Dwarf/Elf/etc." after first level?


My honest suggestion here, have Half-Elf and Half-Orc be heritages that get less in terms of initial boosts (less HP, less speed..., make some of it optional... you decide), but have them get the additional bonus of being able to select feats from either heritage. That way they won't feel cheated out of that feat, but will have given something up for getting access to both lists.

Grand Lodge

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Honestly the way it looks right now I'd rather just not take the half elf/orc feat and just say I'm "half x" without any mechanical benefit of it.

That's better in my mind than a feat tax to play the race you want.


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ThePuppyTurtle wrote:

Other than tradition, I don't really see why these heritages are human locked? Why not just open the floodgates and let all of the human-like humanoids interbreed? Just make half-ancestry feats for dwarves, halflings and gnomes and let anyone be half-anything else.

Sure it says you can get GM permission, but why even require that?

Because the book is written for Golarion, where only Humans can cross-breed.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Kerobelis wrote:
Biztak wrote:
Colette Brunel wrote:

I have been thinking about the matter a bit more with regards to the 2e human's Natural Ambition.

The human race is definitely shaping up to be a strong contender for optimized build creation, because an extra 1st-level class feat could be hugely important for assembling optimized builds that bring out the best in a class's specialties. A human who is also a half-elf or a half-orc is handicapped from 1st through 4th level by dint of lacking that extra class feat, but they are a little better off come 5th level. Still, a handicap from 1st through 4th level is non-negligible and should not be discounted.

On the other hand, how are other races, like dwarves and elves, supposed to compete with Natural Ambition? Class feats look to be very potent, and I cannot imagine that dwarves, elves, and others can offer ancestry feats that can reshape an optimized build as much as an extra 1st-level class feat can.

Though I agree that Natural Ambition seems like the most powerful ancestry feat out there we have seen some pregens that benefit from other options, like the alchemist getting access to martial weapons with the goblin trait thanks to a goblin feat, a martially inclined alchemist might benefit greatly from such an option, now if general training has something akin to Martial training then I see very few cases where humans arent the default top dog
While characterful, I am not sure how optimal Funbus is with his Doglslicer. Not a big fan of a 1d6 damage no bonuses. I think there may have been a better feat choice? No idea what other goblin feats there are though, so I could be wrong.

I agree that Fumbus doesn't look fully optimized-- I'd imagine that Burn feat would pair nicely with his alchemist fire's-- Biztak is right that a character more built for melee would love that dog slicer. Imagine a strength based alchemist who simply hands over any bombs they make to the high dex rogue, and who then gets into flanks with the rogue where both of them get extra damage. That dog slicer will probably make the rogue jealous, because y'all will probably attack flat-footed enemies a lot more than you roll crits or need to disarm people, and it is agile where the rapier isn't.

Designer

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Cantriped wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
I know when Jason built an elf barbarian for the Twitch Stream, there were a lot of perks, but one of the significant disadvantages was that since he needed the flexible ancestry boost to Strength, he had to accept 8 Con coming out of that step, meaning 12 Con was the best he could do overall, despite Con being a secondary stat used for a few things that help the barbarian out. A human barbarian could have had 18 Strength and 16 Con, which is a 4 point Con advantage over the elf assuming both characters want to have 18 Strength.
To be fair, I wouldn't usually roll-up an elf barbarian, or waste my flexible ancestry shoring up their doomed Con. Instead I might focus on stacking sources of damage mitigation (Rage HP, Shields, High AC, etc)

Damage mitigation is definitely smart, and barbarian gets two great damage mitigation techniques (rage HP and their resistance), but both are based on the barbarian's Con modifier.

That's not to say that the human's flex picks are always the strongest in every situation; if you can find an ancestry that gives you your #1 or #2 stat with a penalty in your #5 or #6 stat and the other bonus anywhere in your top 4, you've likely picked up a slight edge, and that's not necessarily that hard to find depending on your combination for most ancestries. But humans are always going to be able to work with whatever combination you need.


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AngelZiefer wrote:
Bardarok wrote:
I like it. Is there any chance you could just add orc in the CRB though since you are already almost there by printing the ancestry feats. Personally I think adding both orcs and goblins would be a good look. (I know that's likely an unpopular opinion though)

2 Whether your group likes it or not, RPGs are games for heroes, not monsters, and in Golarion, Orcs and Goblins are monsters. I know, you want to make your Drizzt-like "I'm not like the rest of my race!" characters or your homebrew world may have different rules, and they will likely be released in future books because...

Didn't you hear goblins can be heroes now and that is 100% Golarion cannon. Having entire species be inherently evil is something that the fantasy genre should have abandoned years ago.


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MerlinCross wrote:

So is Human Wizard, that has an extra feat, ahead or not of Half Elf Wizard, because they didn't or couldn't take an extra feat.

That was the point I was trying to get across. To me, that sounds like the half elf wizard is indeed a feat behind. Which is par for the course, humans get an extra feat in most systems.

I don't quite understand how they are supposed to be on the same 'feat' level like Mark suggested. So Half Elf Wizard has to wait to pick up the feat he wants for the build. Human Wizard, has that feat for the build. And can now pick up something at the same level that Half Elf would for the build, at the same time.

This doesn't seem hard to me. How's the Half Elf suddenly getting an extra feat? What? Is it because they can take the extra class feat, feat that's from Ancestry feat that gives a feat to them because they are Human for feats as well as Elves?

1st level Human, takes Natural Ambition, has an extra Class Feat at 1st level. 1st level Human, takes Half-Elf heritage, doesn't have an extra Class Feat.

At 5th level, the Human takes a different Ancestry Feat, because he can't retake Natural Ambition. At 5th level, the Half-Elf takes Natural Ambition, gaining a 1st level Class Feat.

Since their other advancement is the same, both now have the same number of Class Feats.


I continue to be impressed with your design, looking forward to the playtest.


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TheFinish wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

So is Human Wizard, that has an extra feat, ahead or not of Half Elf Wizard, because they didn't or couldn't take an extra feat.

That was the point I was trying to get across. To me, that sounds like the half elf wizard is indeed a feat behind. Which is par for the course, humans get an extra feat in most systems.

I don't quite understand how they are supposed to be on the same 'feat' level like Mark suggested. So Half Elf Wizard has to wait to pick up the feat he wants for the build. Human Wizard, has that feat for the build. And can now pick up something at the same level that Half Elf would for the build, at the same time.

This doesn't seem hard to me. How's the Half Elf suddenly getting an extra feat? What? Is it because they can take the extra class feat, feat that's from Ancestry feat that gives a feat to them because they are Human for feats as well as Elves?

1st level Human, takes Natural Ambition, has an extra Class Feat at 1st level. 1st level Human, takes Half-Elf heritage, doesn't have an extra Class Feat.

At 5th level, the Human takes a different Heritage Feat, because he can't retake Natural Ambition. At 5th level, the Half-Elf takes Natural Ambition, gaining a 1st level Class Feat.

Since their other advancement is the same, both now have the same number of Class Feats.

And yet the human still has an extra Heritage Feat. Where is the Half Elf getting this extra feat?

Answer, doesn't. So human goes off to pick up the next feat of their build they need(In this case a Heritage Feat, hey let's pick up something for Fire damage or Arcane skill) and have gotten to use the Class feat they picked up from 1-5 where as Half Elf had to wait.

In fact, depending on how things are handled, Human might already be qualifying for things by level 5 where as the Half Elf needs to wait for longer.

So...., does this put Human ahead or not? I would say yes, but we'll have to see when play test rolls around.


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Isn't the difference between the human and the half-elf in that example that the half-elf will have, say, higher speed and low-light vision, and the human will have whatever their fifth level ancestry feat grants?

So the question is "is +5' of speed and low light vision" comparable to a 5th level ancestry feat? Which is basically not something we can answer without reading the feat list.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Damage mitigation is definitely smart, and barbarian gets two great damage mitigation techniques (rage HP and their resistance), but both are based on the barbarian's Con modifier.

That is reason enough for me to never play an Elven Barbarian, but I am un unrepentent munchkin. So I have Weakness to Suboptimal Choices.

I do like and appreciate the point that even an 'obviously sub-optimal character' can be argued to have saving graces (like higher accuracy at range and AC from having a higher Dex than an otherwise similar Human Barbarian). Statlines are much fairer in PF2 thanks to removal of the old point-buy system.


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Kerobelis wrote:
Biztak wrote:
Colette Brunel wrote:

I have been thinking about the matter a bit more with regards to the 2e human's Natural Ambition.

The human race is definitely shaping up to be a strong contender for optimized build creation, because an extra 1st-level class feat could be hugely important for assembling optimized builds that bring out the best in a class's specialties. A human who is also a half-elf or a half-orc is handicapped from 1st through 4th level by dint of lacking that extra class feat, but they are a little better off come 5th level. Still, a handicap from 1st through 4th level is non-negligible and should not be discounted.

On the other hand, how are other races, like dwarves and elves, supposed to compete with Natural Ambition? Class feats look to be very potent, and I cannot imagine that dwarves, elves, and others can offer ancestry feats that can reshape an optimized build as much as an extra 1st-level class feat can.

Though I agree that Natural Ambition seems like the most powerful ancestry feat out there we have seen some pregens that benefit from other options, like the alchemist getting access to martial weapons with the goblin trait thanks to a goblin feat, a martially inclined alchemist might benefit greatly from such an option, now if general training has something akin to Martial training then I see very few cases where humans arent the default top dog
While characterful, I am not sure how optimal Funbus is with his Doglslicer. Not a big fan of a 1d6 damage no bonuses. I think there may have been a better feat choice? No idea what other goblin feats there are though, so I could be wrong.

I hope Roll With It is still a thing.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

Isn't the difference between the human and the half-elf in that example that the half-elf will have, say, higher speed and low-light vision, and the human will have whatever their fifth level ancestry feat grants?

So the question is "is +5' of speed and low light vision" comparable to a 5th level ancestry feat? Which is basically not something we can answer without reading the feat list.

Now see I will agree to that but 1 extra movement and low light vision aren't exactly high selling points. Early maybe but there's any number of ways around those in PF1, I don't think I'm wrong in thinking there's ways around it in PF2.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
MerlinCross wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

So is Human Wizard, that has an extra feat, ahead or not of Half Elf Wizard, because they didn't or couldn't take an extra feat.

That was the point I was trying to get across. To me, that sounds like the half elf wizard is indeed a feat behind. Which is par for the course, humans get an extra feat in most systems.

I don't quite understand how they are supposed to be on the same 'feat' level like Mark suggested. So Half Elf Wizard has to wait to pick up the feat he wants for the build. Human Wizard, has that feat for the build. And can now pick up something at the same level that Half Elf would for the build, at the same time.

This doesn't seem hard to me. How's the Half Elf suddenly getting an extra feat? What? Is it because they can take the extra class feat, feat that's from Ancestry feat that gives a feat to them because they are Human for feats as well as Elves?

1st level Human, takes Natural Ambition, has an extra Class Feat at 1st level. 1st level Human, takes Half-Elf heritage, doesn't have an extra Class Feat.

At 5th level, the Human takes a different Heritage Feat, because he can't retake Natural Ambition. At 5th level, the Half-Elf takes Natural Ambition, gaining a 1st level Class Feat.

Since their other advancement is the same, both now have the same number of Class Feats.

And yet the human still has an extra Heritage Feat. Where is the Half Elf getting this extra feat?

Answer, doesn't. So human goes off to pick up the next feat of their build they need(In this case a Heritage Feat, hey let's pick up something for Fire damage or Arcane skill) and have gotten to use the Class feat they picked up from 1-5 where as Half Elf had to wait.

In fact, depending on how things are handled, Human might already be qualifying for things by level 5 where as the Half Elf needs to wait for longer.

So...., does this put Human ahead or not? I would say yes, but we'll have to see when play test rolls around.

It seems rather unlikely that the human ancestry feat (not heritage feat, mind, because the human didn't take it at 1st level and therefore can't anymore) will somehow accelerate the build in the way you describe. The only general feat we have seen so far (Toughness) just provides some extra hit points. The other human ancestry feats, Skilled and Clever Improviser, just make you better at things you were untrained at before.

(Also, I can't help notice that Toughness and Skilled seem precisely to provide twice the benefit of 1/2 of a halfie ancestry feat. If the human also wanted to be trained in Diplomacy, he's only one trained skill ahead of the half-elf but also either knows less languages, lacks low light vision, or has a lower move speed.)

An elf feat, in the meantime, can translate into additional cantrips, to pick one example we know of out. Or can add another movement boost. A 5th level elf fighter can have 10 higher movement than a human version of the same build. Using Colette's Sudden Charge example, in exchange for waiting to catch up in class feats the Half Elf fighter now has a 70 foot sudden charge range compared to the human's 50.


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I love how easily this enables races other than human to be half-x - just by removing the human requirement for the feat you can have whatever combination you like for your setting. I probably won't implement this myself for half-orc/half-elf, but will definitely do this for tieflings and other plane touched - it makes a lot of sense for other races to be able to be corrupted or blessed in this way via pacts and curses and the like.

Designer

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Cantriped wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Damage mitigation is definitely smart, and barbarian gets two great damage mitigation techniques (rage HP and their resistance), but both are based on the barbarian's Con modifier.

That is reason enough for me to never play an Elven Barbarian, but I am un unrepentent munchkin. So I have Weakness to Suboptimal Choices.

I do like and appreciate the point that even an 'obviously sub-optimal character' can be argued to have saving graces (like higher accuracy at range and AC from having a higher Dex than an otherwise similar Human Barbarian). Statlines are much fairer in PF2 thanks to removal of the old point-buy system.

I think Jason managed to get not only better starting AC but also really good Speed, building up to taking Fast Movement and winding up with something like a 90-foot Sudden Charge at level 4. But yeah, not saying the elf is bad, but it's not something you would play, and thus a good example of a time the human has an advantage.

Designer

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Tender Tendrils wrote:
I love how easily this enables races other than human to be half-x - just by removing the human requirement for the feat you can have whatever combination you like for your setting. I probably won't implement this myself for half-orc/half-elf, but will definitely do this for tieflings and other plane touched - it makes a lot of sense for other races to be able to be corrupted or blessed in this way via pacts and curses and the like.

We might even do the same ourselves with those planar scions!

Silver Crusade Contributor

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Another random thought - if humans (and thus lesser humans like half-orcs and half-elves) have ability modifiers of "+2 to any two"... under the suggested ability score generation system, it's impossible for humans and lesser humans to be weak, or foolish, or clumsy. The baseline for humans etc. is "average" (a somewhat odd term under the circumstances).

Hm.


MerlinCross wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

Isn't the difference between the human and the half-elf in that example that the half-elf will have, say, higher speed and low-light vision, and the human will have whatever their fifth level ancestry feat grants?

So the question is "is +5' of speed and low light vision" comparable to a 5th level ancestry feat? Which is basically not something we can answer without reading the feat list.

Now see I will agree to that but 1 extra movement and low light vision aren't exactly high selling points. Early maybe but there's any number of ways around those in PF1, I don't think I'm wrong in thinking there's ways around it in PF2.

I guess the question is- Are ancestry feats supposed to be strong? Since they're basically free, the only question we need to ask is "are they as good as other ancestry feats?"

After all, ancestries in PF1 didn't have a ton of super powerful abilities built in, maybe stuff scales better in PF2 because it's not all at the front end though.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

Isn't the difference between the human and the half-elf in that example that the half-elf will have, say, higher speed and low-light vision, and the human will have whatever their fifth level ancestry feat grants?

So the question is "is +5' of speed and low light vision" comparable to a 5th level ancestry feat? Which is basically not something we can answer without reading the feat list.

Now see I will agree to that but 1 extra movement and low light vision aren't exactly high selling points. Early maybe but there's any number of ways around those in PF1, I don't think I'm wrong in thinking there's ways around it in PF2.

I guess the question is- Are ancestry feats supposed to be strong? Since they're basically free, the only question we need to ask is "are they as good as other ancestry feats?"

After all, ancestries in PF1 didn't have a ton of super powerful abilities built in, maybe stuff scales better in PF2 because it's not all at the front end though.

Check out the gnome feats from the Banquet and decide for yourself!

Personally, I think the gnome options look pretty dang good.


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Captain Morgan wrote:

It seems rather unlikely that the human ancestry feat (not heritage feat, mind, because the human didn't take it at 1st level and therefore can't anymore) will somehow accelerate the build in the way you describe. The only general feat we have seen so far (Toughness) just provides some extra hit points. The other human ancestry feats, Skilled and Clever Improviser, just make you better at things you were untrained at before.

(Also, I can't help notice that Toughness and Skilled seem precisely to provide twice the benefit of 1/2 of a halfie ancestry feat. If the human also wanted to be trained in Diplomacy, he's only one trained skill ahead of the half-elf but also either knows less languages, lacks low light vision, or has a lower move speed.)

An elf feat, in the meantime, can translate into additional cantrips, to pick one example we know of out. Or can add another movement boost. A 5th level elf fighter can have 10 higher movement than a human version of the same build. Using Colette's Sudden Charge example, in exchange for waiting to catch up in class feats the Half Elf fighter now has a 70 foot sudden charge range compared to the human's 50.

Sorry. When everything has FEAT tacked on it's hard for me to split them up(Especially when Ancestry and Heritage are very well within the same definition ballpark) .

And that's nice. Decent charge range. Oh wait, Human feat gives extra damage on charge. Or extra damage on X weapon that is good on charge. That makes it purple over Half Elf.

Yeah see, it doesn't matter how much of a power spike it is, how much faster it is to do so. If A is better than B, A is going to get the community support. All the time. It's just math proven to be better, you'd be bad if you didn't pick this.

Am I jumping the gun in thinking the extra Ancestry feat will matter to the point of breaking builds? Yeah. Okay. I'll give you that.

Am I jumping the gun in thinking people will highly value that extra Ancestry feat? Regardless of how small a bonus it is that it simply is a bigger bonus than what Half Elf gets? No, I don't think I am.

Given all the years of looking for as many bonuses and doing as much to stack all the numbers in their favor, no matter how small the number actually is; still think having an extra feat that didn't go into race selection is going to put Humans ahead for most people.


Guys we don’t even know what other things humans get at first level. This half blood thing might seem better once we see what kinds of things the human actually gets before taking the ancestry feat.


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Kalindlara wrote:

Another random thought - if humans (and thus lesser humans like half-orcs and half-elves) have ability modifiers of "+2 to any two"... under the suggested ability score generation system, it's impossible for humans and lesser humans to be weak, or foolish, or clumsy. The baseline for humans etc. is "average" (a somewhat odd term under the circumstances).

Hm.

I think 10 might be the new 8 in general. Having a 10 in a stat and not being proficient in the relevant skill puts you at -1 at level one; same amount of incompetence that you'd get in PF1.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Cantriped wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Damage mitigation is definitely smart, and barbarian gets two great damage mitigation techniques (rage HP and their resistance), but both are based on the barbarian's Con modifier.

That is reason enough for me to never play an Elven Barbarian, but I am un unrepentent munchkin. So I have Weakness to Suboptimal Choices.

I do like and appreciate the point that even an 'obviously sub-optimal character' can be argued to have saving graces (like higher accuracy at range and AC from having a higher Dex than an otherwise similar Human Barbarian). Statlines are much fairer in PF2 thanks to removal of the old point-buy system.

I think Jason managed to get not only better starting AC but also really good Speed, building up to taking Fast Movement and winding up with something like a 90-foot Sudden Charge at level 4. But yeah, not saying the elf is bad, but it's not something you would play, and thus a good example of a time the human has an advantage.

The problem I forsee(Guess really) is that with the stats more or less even, more focus is going to be put on just what each race brings to the party based on their Ancestry and Heritage feats.

Which means I still think certain race+class combos are going to be deemed "bad and not something you would play". We don't want to play bad, subpar characters do we?


Kalindlara wrote:

Another random thought - if humans (and thus lesser humans like half-orcs and half-elves) have ability modifiers of "+2 to any two"... under the suggested ability score generation system, it's impossible for humans and lesser humans to be weak, or foolish, or clumsy. The baseline for humans etc. is "average" (a somewhat odd term under the circumstances).

Hm.

Nah, just human 'heroes'. NPCs might start with 8s across the board when they use character advancement. Meaning that they'll often have a few 8s or even a 6 unless they spread out their floating increases.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

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This may have been addressed elsewhere in the thread, but isn't the "humans get an extra ancestry feat" thing pretty much comparable to them getting their bonus feat and extra skill rank in 1st edition?


Charlie Brooks wrote:
This may have been addressed elsewhere in the thread, but isn't the "humans get an extra ancestry feat" thing pretty much comparable to them getting their bonus feat and extra skill rank in 1st edition?

I thought humans didn't get an extra ancestry feat, they can simply spend their 1st level ancestry feat to get an extra feat of a different kind.


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I like it! I found it silly/annoying how Half-Orcs always got specced out like a "full race" while Orcs were treated like an after thought. Nothing against the Half-fans but as far as representation goes I always felt they should be a sub-entry or even just a footnote in the sections about their parent races.


MerlinCross wrote:

The problem I forsee(Guess really) is that with the stats more or less even, more focus is going to be put on just what each race brings to the party based on their Ancestry and Heritage feats.

Which means I still think certain race+class combos are going to be deemed "bad and not something you would play". We don't want to play bad, subpar characters do we?

Generally yes, but not as systemically. There will be still be odd builds that can be shown to work despite using suboptimal choices, and common 'OP' builds. However there are far fewer obviously suboptimal choices now. Beyond not wanting a penalty in our primary or secondary stats, we are basically free to combine any ancestry/class optimally.


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Arikiel wrote:
I like it! I found it silly/annoying how Half-Orcs always got specced out like a "full race" while Orcs were treated like an after thought. Nothing against the Half-fans but as far as representation goes I always felt they should be a sub-entry or even just a footnote in the sections about their parent races.

Orcs aren't getting the full race treatment, either.


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Arikiel wrote:
I like it! I found it silly/annoying how Half-Orcs always got specced out like a "full race" while Orcs were treated like an after thought. Nothing against the Half-fans but as far as representation goes I always felt they should be a sub-entry or even just a footnote in the sections about their parent races.

I also like how it makes it clear that half-elves/orcs/etc. are a lot less common than full-blooded humans, elves, dwarves, etc. It always felt kind of odd how half-blooded people were in core next to other options which were vastly more numerous and widely distributed.

Like Golarion has enough half-orcs that you can plausibly play as one in any adventure path regardless of where it's set, but it's not like they were ever common.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hm.

Hm hm hm.

Putting aside the sacred cow roasting on the spit over there...

1. Having these splice onto humans only is certainly... a thing. Historically, half-orcs and half-elves have always been half-human, so it's not that jarring for these two in particular.

2. Seconding the notes that having only a single Ancestry feat at level 1 is going to be a bit limiting...


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Arikiel wrote:
I like it! I found it silly/annoying how Half-Orcs always got specced out like a "full race" while Orcs were treated like an after thought. Nothing against the Half-fans but as far as representation goes I always felt they should be a sub-entry or even just a footnote in the sections about their parent races.

I also like how it makes it clear that half-elves/orcs/etc. are a lot less common than full-blooded humans, elves, dwarves, etc. It always felt kind of odd how half-blooded people were in core next to other options which were vastly more numerous and widely distributed.

Like Golarion has enough half-orcs that you can plausibly play as one in any adventure path regardless of where it's set, but it's not like they were ever common.

Actually considering that the Giant Slayer campaign talked about nothing else except the amount of half-orcs in the area I feel like they were more predominant then other systems, almost like Paizo made it a common race.


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Cantriped wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

The problem I forsee(Guess really) is that with the stats more or less even, more focus is going to be put on just what each race brings to the party based on their Ancestry and Heritage feats.

Which means I still think certain race+class combos are going to be deemed "bad and not something you would play". We don't want to play bad, subpar characters do we?

Generally yes, but not as systemically. There will be still be odd builds that can be shown to work despite using suboptimal choices, and common 'OP' builds. However there are far fewer obviously suboptimal choices now. Beyond not wanting a penalty in our primary or secondary stats, we are basically free to combine any ancestry/class optimally.

What is 'suboptimal' and who decides that though?

Though in my experience from games, the closer everything is to balance, the easier it is for some exploits/bonuses to just throw things out of wack.


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Alric Rahl wrote:
Actually considering that the Giant Slayer campaign talked about nothing else except the amount of half-orcs in the area I feel like they were more predominant then other systems, almost like Paizo made it a common race.

Isn't that largely because Giant Slayer is set in and close to the place with the highest concentration of Orcs in Golarion?

I don't think we find large populations of half-orcs in places that aren't like Belkzen or Ustalav, but we do find them there, and enough half-orcs have jobs that require them to move around (caravan guards, sailors, mercenaries, etc.) that it's not hard to find one or two anywhere.


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I generally like this so far. It should make it easier to publish all my favourite planetouched/etc races. I'd definitely advocate for the extra 1st level ancestry feat (possibly with restrictions).

The Elven Tongue option for half-elves seems incredibly weak, even compared to the not-exactly-strong alternatives. I don't think I'd ever pick just a single language ever unless something else was tacked onto it.

This system might make it harder to make a half-giant ancestry for my homegame though.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Orcs aren't getting the full race treatment, either.

Wow, sounds like big change from P1E, where Orcs had same ARG Featured status as Aasimar, Tiefling, Ratfolk, Dhampirs...

ARG: Featured Races wrote:
While the seven core races are the primary focus of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, they're not the only ones suitable to be played as characters. Other, even stranger races help populate the world, and—with the GM's permission—also work well as player character races, creating fun and exciting new roleplaying opportunities. (...) While many of these races are considered civilized, some are typically viewed as monsters, and may prove interesting challenges for roleplaying and character interaction. When playing drow, kobolds, orcs, or other such races, it is often best for party dynamics to take on the roles of characters who rebel against the norms of their races and societies—creatures who do not agree with their often brutal cultures, and instead wish to carve out a better existence for themselves among other races.

That almost looks like... undeniable intention for Orcs to be playable (as PCs, no less, although that isn't inherent to concept of "full race treatment").

Expressly giving advice exactly how to integrate Orc PCs into a game could even be called... encouragement.
Note Paizo's provisional Playtest Core Race treatment Goblin gives similar advice distinguishing heroic PC from problematic majority.

Designer

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tivadar27 wrote:
While you claim that Human versatility for their stats is an upside, it also comes with a downside, so it's hard to determine if it's a net benefit or not. Humans only get to boost 2 stats during the Heritage phase, whereas every other race gets to boost 3. Other races get to tank a stat (dump stat) and humans don't.

This is certainly true for gnomes, halflings, and dwarves, who might leave their Strength or Charisma at 8, and maybe for a few goblins who might leave their Wisdom at 8, but it's not really as true for elves, who are much less likely to stick with 8 Constitution for their character. Once you've committed to raising your Con back to 10 at some point during character creation, you need Int and Dex to both be in your top 3 most important stats or the human is at an advantage, and if you want 12 Con to start, the human is equal (only if Dex and Int are exactly the two top stats you wanted anyway) or better (any other situation).

Liberty's Edge

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Barathos wrote:
The Elven Tongue option for half-elves seems incredibly weak, even compared to the not-exactly-strong alternatives. I don't think I'd ever pick just a single language ever unless something else was tacked onto it.

I agree it's a bit weak, but it seems worth noting that all characters have fewer languages this edition. You appear to get starting languages, a single bonus one at Int 14+, and then nothing else without Feat investment.

So it's a lot stronger than it would be in PF1. I'm just not sure it's nearly as good as the other three options.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Charlie Brooks wrote:
This may have been addressed elsewhere in the thread, but isn't the "humans get an extra ancestry feat" thing pretty much comparable to them getting their bonus feat and extra skill rank in 1st edition?
I thought humans didn't get an extra ancestry feat, they can simply spend their 1st level ancestry feat to get an extra feat of a different kind.

I stand corrected. Still, wasn't an extra feat the human schtick before anyway?


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Captain Morgan wrote:
Upgrading humans to low light vision (or probably dark vision for half orc) would have been one helluva feat in PF1, since vision was about the biggest limitation on humans.

This is a single race trait, so the equivalent of 1/2 a feat in pathfinder classic... :P


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Deadmanwalking wrote:

I agree it's a bit weak, but it seems worth noting that all characters have fewer languages this edition. You appear to get starting languages, a single bonus one at Int 14+, and then nothing else without Feat investment.

So it's a lot stronger than it would be in PF1. I'm just not sure it's nearly as good as the other three options.

Unless every PF2 NPC Elf you come across only speaks Elven and not common, it's still not really useful outside of maybe intrigue games. A thematically appropriate addition might be improving your Lore(elves) skill (assuming I've understood how Lore skill works) to reflect your upbringing in an elven culture.


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Everyone still automatically having Common makes it difficult to have language matter much.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
MerlinCross wrote:


And that's nice. Decent charge range. Oh wait, Human feat gives extra damage on charge. Or extra damage on X weapon that is good on charge. That makes it purple over Half Elf.

Yeah see, it doesn't matter how much of a power spike it is, how much faster it is to do so. If A is better than B, A is going to get the community support. All the time. It's just math proven to be better, you'd be bad if you didn't pick this.

You're assuming humans are going to have a damage boosting ancestry feat. Which seems like a weird assumption to make, since it runs counter to every feat we have seen for them save Natural Ambition, which instead gives you pretty secondary benefits like bonuses in untrained skills. If anyone gets a melee damage boosting ancestry feat, you know who I bet it will be? Half-Orcs.

We actually have evidence for every ancestry except humans getting weapon training feats, which potentially gets them a better weapon than they head before. And we know Gnomes can take Critical Specializations for those weapons, and imagine other Ancestries can do it. I think if humans get similar feats, they will probably also be heritage locked. You''ll spend your first level heritage feat to be a Shoanti, and then spend later ancestry feats to gain proficiency and critical specialization in the Earthbreaker and Klar, for example.


Milo v3 wrote:
Everyone still automatically having Common makes it difficult to have language matter much.

Get rid of that please.

Grand Lodge

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Quandary wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Everyone still automatically having Common makes it difficult to have language matter much.
Get rid of that please.

Can't. It's tied into the lore of the world. Taldor covered most of the continent at one point which led to most of the humans in the world speaking Taldane (Common).

Most humanoid races are gonna want to understand humans, so most are going to know common. You can't just suddenly have most races stop speaking common without a drastic lore change.


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Oh yay. Half-elves and Half-orcs are reduced to Feats.

Who could have guessed, given that PF2 is Featfinder. How could you argue it isn't now?

It does open up an inordinate amount of design space for half-....feats. So there's that. Double yay?


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Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Quandary wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Everyone still automatically having Common makes it difficult to have language matter much.
Get rid of that please.

Can't. It's tied into the lore of the world. Taldor covered most of the continent at one point which led to most of the humans in the world speaking Taldane (Common).

Most humanoid races are gonna want to understand humans, so most are going to know common.

Plus having a party where no one speaks the same language is one of those things that only sounds fun right up till you have to start playing with it.

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