Then I guess we better all just get started on our custom 30 point build races. You know, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
It's not about overpowering or not. It's about fairness in resources available at character start. The fact that you are trying to squeeze in a pre-existing character from a campaign which allowed such things doesn't mean the rest of us happen to be interested in playing in a campaign of that sort.
The character was accepted. The players had a problem with the character on the basis of power.
There are only two solutions, reduce the power of the existing character, or bring in a new character. If you are going to do the latter, then quit playing with me and just outright ask for a new character, whether mine or from recruitment. If going for the former solution, then there is nothing wrong with trying to preserve the character while reducing the mechanical power. The race build is just the method of achieving that, nothing more.
So far, most of the suggestions have been to make a new character, without calling it a new character. Solutions that shatter the narrative concept, and keep nothing more than the most basic of gimmicks, and even that gets twisted away from the starting concept. I'm sorry if I have an issue with that.
The thing that really gets me though, is the supposed list of problems, which when presented with a solution to those problems that still preserves nearly everything else, gets met with as much resistance as a token gesture.
Before,
DR 10
5 nat armor
lots of stat bonuses
pounce
rake
grab
scent
After,
dr 5 (only in an unarmored form)
scent
standard stat adjustments
You know, I've had to fight for underpowered characters on many occasions, to defend against those who thought I'd drag them down. It is kinda funny to be reversed for once.
You're missing the other option, where 3 of us decide to walk because we don't like a broken build and the game folds.
The GM has another group, he can run what he likes. I have a number of other games. I can keep busy.
If the build still seems broken, then it isn't fixed. But that is why I'm asking for more detail on what is so broken about it. I've removed the parts that were complained about, and said I'd take a level lenalty, yet players still call it broken. Clearly then, I have no idea why. So, what is so broken and overpowered about the fix I presented? I can't do more to fix it without knowing more about what is so wrong with it.
If you want a new character completely, then just say so, and I'll just build something completely new.
My only issue at the moment is that I'm not to going to make something completely new and pretend it is the same character. Either I'll make a new character, downgrade this character while maintaining the integrity of the character herself, or leave.
I'm trying to take the downgrade option, but until I get better feedback on the problem I've gone as far I can go in the dark.
If for whatever reason, you find even that too much, say so and I'll walk. I've other stuff as well. Not much that lets me explore my nonstandard characters, but other stuff still.
Since my point seems to get no traction, I will leave it up to the GM.
However the DM wants to handle it.
And here I was hoping for more insight from others.
This is a problem I clearly don't understand. If nothing else comes from this, I'd like to at least walk away with some understanding of what the problem is.
Then I guess we better all just get started on our custom 30 point build races. You know, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
It's not about overpowering or not. It's about fairness in resources available at character start. The fact that you are trying to squeeze in a pre-existing character from a campaign which allowed such things doesn't mean the rest of us happen to be interested in playing in a campaign of that sort.
Though somehow I rather doubt it will make any difference restating it.
And here I was hoping for more insight from others.
I've offered suggestions on how to build a character similar to what you seem to want to play but within the character construction rules outlined in the recruitment thread.
You haven't responded to those suggestions at all. Should I continue offering suggestions?
You seem intent on building a character with more resources than were outlined in the recruitment thread.
If I were in your shoes and wanted to play a non-standard character that was outside the typical rules for Pathfinder. I'd go out of my way to make that character obviously less powerful than what could be built within the standard rules. Not try to negotiate for the best deal I can get outside and above the normal rules.
You make it sound like I've presented lots of unacceptable options, and I haven't.
Rules wise, it is up to the GM to decide how to balance powerful races. That said, I should have brought it up more in depth during recruitment and it didn't occur to me to do so. For that I'm sorry.
However, I haven't used any resources unavailable to anyone else. It isn't like lycans were off limits yet I got one anyway.
It was a perfectly allowable character. A couple players expressed concern that my character would be overpowered in comparison to them.
I offered all of two solutions to that problem. First, I suggested reducing a couple things, lvl, dr, etc. Second, I suggested dropping basically everything not essential to the concept of lycan (well the curse might be considered essential, but oh well).
That has been the limit of my suggestions.
I didn't like suggestions that eliminated my character's "character" and replaced it with a gimmick that didn't even do a major aspect of the character.
First, druid has vastly different spells and powers.
Second, all those options seemed to either make lesser versions of hybrid form (the most expendable part of the original build) which is so powerful, it has to be reduced even more than an animal form to keep it from being too much. But it was never the hybrid form I wanted, despite its power. The other suggestions were basically to diluted the animal by making it far more general and able to shift into many things, also far outside the concept. I'm sorry if I don't agree that those are similar. If I was playing a gimmick, or unestablished character, maybe, but I don't play gimmicks and this character and a fair bit of her heritage is established.
In any case, Like I said before, I presented a couple options that eased the mechanical power while maintaining conceptual integrity.
And I also said, that if you didn't feel that simply reducing power was enough, you could always ask me to just make a new character, in which case it would be a new character without any pretense of keeping stuff from Chirinide.
I'd play Chirinide as a first level character if you'd take it, but I got the impression that wouldn't be enough (even though even I would consider her too weak for this level). Hence me trying to reduce the things complained about such as dr, which I saw as being helpful due to lack of armor, but not essential to the character.
But in any case, if the race builder was so much a problem, would a level one lycan be too powerful for your tastes? If so, just ask for a brand new character. I've got other characters, just none at this level. Perhaps a masterless familiar (too weak?).
Uhhhmmmm.... Alicorn, I think you're leaning just a tad bit onto the rude side. We're trying to help everyone be happy here, including you. You know, as the person who started this little thing, perhaps you'd like to hear about why I had a problem with your character being a Lycanthrope. Since you seem to be so eager for us to be "honest," I'll be honest.
1). This sort of option was not advertised for anyone. To be perfectly frank, if it had been, I never would have applied to the game in the first place. Pretty much the same case as playing in a game of Gestalt or Mythic, in my mind. Just makes people who want power instead of substance show up. And, for the record? The way you're reacting is sort of cementing that image of you in my mind.
2). I like for characters to all be built using the same rule set. If you were in a game were 3 people had to use a 15 point buy, and one guy was given a 20 for "story" reasons, how would you react? This is the same case for using the race builder to build your super-mega-awesome shapeshifter, despite our other suggestions that give you pretty much exactly what you want.
3). I'll be honest: I despise "special snowflakes." I fully acknowledge that I say this as someone playing a race that closes in on Special Snowflake territory, so I'm somewhat of a hypocrite in that regard. That being said... Your character isn't even a native of Golarion. You come from another plane. Adding being a lycanthrope on top of that just seems honestly mary-sue in nature to me. Like, your character seems to me to be like "Hai guyz, I'm this super-awesome sneaky spellcaster who's also good at fighting. Oh, and I'm from another plane, and I can turn into a tiger!" Is that a bit mean-spirited on my part? Probably. But it's still the impression I have.
4). I honestly don't see how your story changes with our suggestions. Maybe some details shift (I couldn't go animal for 6 levels! My magic is different now!) but, at its core, everything else remains the same. You can technically shift into many things as a Druid or Hunter, but you could easily just change into the same tiger every time, and flavor that as all you can do. For why you couldn't change from the get-go, maybe the magic of this plane differs from yours on a fundamental level, so your shape-shifting mojo was funky for a while until you adapted. Same goes for your magic.
5). Continued Story Dominance. From the moment we handled our first goblins in Sandpoint, Churley and Bright were humans, Marigold was a changeling, and John was a half-elf. You? You could turn into a massively more powerful tiger at level 1 whenever you wanted. This is the main reason I've been suggesting other races and other ways to get the flavor you want: The rest of us kind of fall to the wayside for quite some time with this, and... Well, I am really looking forward to figuring out how we work together better and better as we adventure.
Now, I'm still trying to be polite here. I want this game to work out as well as possible, because some cool people have applied. But if you really want to be your were-tiger sorceress/rogue at heart, then go ahead. You'll just be doing it without me in the game. I know I can find other stuff to do, so while I'll be a little disappointed that this didn't turn out, I can mod Marigold so that she can apply to one of the other RotRL games again. Meanwhile, I'm unsure if you'll find another game willing to accept your were-tiger.
I did not mean to sound rude. I apologize about that.
1) Lycans are beastiary 2, and the first four beastiaries were described as being allowed.
2) Was built with same rules, as far as I can tell, though admittedly, the rules are not always balanced or fair, particularly with beastiary racess
3) Given my absolute willingness to give up dr, nat armor, pounce, etc, I'm not really sure what is so super mega anything about the character. The other plane thing was just an excuse to use my own culture for her and be inquisitive about the setting because I know very little about Golarion. And I would consider her a generalist, which has broad ability, but would always be outshined by a specialist (I was totally being outshined by the fighters in the last game and there was no level penalty.)
3b) as for special snowflake, well I always go for that. I find normal to be boring and bland. I very much dislike playing normal anything. I guess this is one point you and I will always irratate each other with.
4) the divine magic doesn't lend itself to how she used magic. It was a support thing, fly, illusions, creation. As far as I know, only three or four of my spells had divine equals, and divine doesn't lend itself to creation, enhancement, versatility, and trickery. Maybe it has just been too long, or new stuff or something changes that, but spell selection is a massive part of the difference. It isn't like divine and arcane have merely minor differences. I guess I just don't agree with your assessment of "similar."
5) Aside from the DR, nat armor, and base animal stats, (all things offered to be dropped), I don't see how a tiger is all that powerful. The base rules have to give it 6 hit dice just be cr 4, so without the defensive boosts of lycan, I don't see a 1 hit die tiger being powerful compared to 1 hit die normal. You might consider the pounce or grab as being extra feats, but I'd still find it a stretch to call it more than a single level ahead.
BTW, that was probably the best response I got. That was a very good way of putting it. Nothing in your post had me scratching my head trying to understand what was meant.
All in all though, seems to me that even a plain tiger with no lycan or shapeshifting stuff would be too much for you to be comfortable with, so can you give a little on the "special snowflake" at least, perhaps kobald, if not the masterless familiar? In fact I just built a kobald, but didn't get it digitized in time.
1).
All standard races are allowed as well as playable races in the bestiaries(1-4)
Lycanthropes are not a standard playable race. This includes things like Tengu, Dhampir, etc. Not Lycanthropes.
2). Going off of 1, no, it was not built using the same rules. Hell, you even have one more trait than the rest of us, and have even outright crafted Magic items that you don't have spells for. I know this is kosher by the rules (the items at least), but it's not helping your case at all.
3). Again, see Mary-Sue reference.
4). Here's the thing: How she used magic hasn't been established in this campaign. You may have a plan, but if you truly want this concept instead of making an entirely new character, then you'll have to change. It's like how Marigold would have to change if she was going to be in a group with another reach fighter. Yeah, I'd be bummed because of how much I love reach Combat, but in the end, I can make her very effective regardless. For example, with very minimal adjustments, Marigold could be a Paladin. She could rock Oracle. I could even switch out some race traits and make her an intelligence based caster, or she could have gone Cleric. But here's the thing: The only thing that changes in all of these cases is the mechanics. She will still be the same person with the same story regardless. The story may not resonate as well as it did with Bloodrager, but it'd still be good.
5). Pounce with multiple natural attacks. Pounce is an ability classes specifically build to have, and it's very potent. Like, I could have easily set up Marigold to have Pounce as a Bloodrager. You know when it'd come online? Level 12. Barbarian? Level 10. Beastmorph Alchemist? Level 10. The absolute lowest belongs to the druid, with either one of a few specific Animal companions at level 7, or at 6th level with Wildshape. So, ummm... Yeah. Pounce from the get go does not set you only one level ahead.
Now I am absolutely done with this discussion. I tried to be polite and make you see things my way, but you continue to refuse everyone's helpful advice, including what the DM says is a good idea. And yet you continue to try to fight for an option that everyone obviously disapproves of and wasn't allowed in the rules in the first place. On top of that, you insist that we're trying to trample on your power ability, and how we obviously want you to play a masterless familiar or kobold. We are trying to play a game with you, and help you get what you want while still being comfortable with it as well. If you're this uncooperative on this front, how on Earth are we supposed to get along as this goes through the rest of the story?
???
I offered to play something else because it was clear you never be okay with anything about the character. I was offering that as a solution, not trying to blame you for forcing that.
In any case, have fun.
And reposting for general purposes of the thread.
Alright. So, now that that's handled with for now.... Onto the actual fun bits! I personally think that the Shayless problem is best thrown into the lap of Alastar (Mildly attractive nerd could be hilarious, and kids become a real possibility depending) or Marigold (Worships Shelyn, remember?). My personal vote is on Alastar myself.
As for Aldern, I think a lust obsession would be good for Marigold. Besides, it's appropriately creepy, and it's fun.
Also, we need to determine who did what with each major "boss" we've encountered so far. In that vein, I've got my votes.
Nualia: Beaten to unconsciousness, turned over to Magnimar
Aldern Foxglove: Dead, unfortunately.
Judge Ironbriar: Alive, tried for his involvement in the Skinsaw Cult.
Xanesha: Dead.
The Grauls: DEAD.
Barl Breakbones: Dead. He's a bit spoiler-rific for book 4. So while your idea is awesome, John.... Yeah. He's got too much information for Mokmurian to let him live. We could totally make it so that he's magic'd up so that if he tries to spill the beans after being terrified into compliance by us, he dies.
That looks fine.
For the kill on Barl, it could be a crit from Churley. As his weapon does triples, and that means around 60 points, he wouldn't have had to be all that low for a kill out of the blue.
Churley probably thinks Grimm John's earthbreaker is amusing.
Well it does seem like a whole lot of swinging to do less damage than my little knife, but every bit counts (though actually I imagine enlarged, you will exceed me per hit., though I doubt it in DPR).
Stand aside, puny non-polearm wielders! We all know that a raging Marigold has got all of you beat!
But in all seriousness, I'm glad I've got at least one vote of assent for how I think things should have gone down. However, I do have to say that I like John's story for how we handled Barl personally. The rest of us could have hit him up to give him a reason to want to give up after John got his lucky Earthbreaker crit.
As for the others, I think I've come up with a fair list of who got the "final blow."
Nualia: Marigold. Too much good symmetry there to pass up.
Aldern: If we go with Mari having the lust focus, also seems appropriate to have her be the one to finish him off, especially since he regains control of himself to beg for a mercy kill part-ways through the fight.
Ironbriar: Possibly Bright or John.
Xanesha: This b~!$@ is so hard to get to for a lot of us. Churley has the best way to fight her, so I say she was his.
The Grauls: We each get some.
Barl: See above point.
Also, one last major campaign note: Did we, or did we not become the Lords of Fort Rannick?
I think that In giant form, power attacking, when raging and smiting against a giant favorite enemy Grim John's vital strike will be +19 to hit and 6d6+31 damage.
He could accidentally kill someone we wanted to subdue.
It depends on whether we want to keep Sandpoint as our base of operations.
We would have to use Alastar to teleport back and forth if we were going to maintain a presence at Fort Rannick.
I think we could just have made ourselves at home at an inn in Sandpoint.
Not personally, no.
All good here.
General question about how you're going to run the game: Are we going to be operating off of the magic items we find / make or will we be selling off loot and buying whatever we like?
I see positives and negatives to doing it either way.
Are we looking to start after the first of the year.
Puppies are an immense time sink surely.
They get over the night noise fairly quickly. The accidents take longer. (have 2 dogs currently, owned one before these two, have spaced them in the years, I cannot imagine trying to manage multiple puppies at once).
Any word from Marigold or Alastar?
Tis a rare thing when a game never even gets off the ground. Sure hope they show up. This was going to be fun. Churley can be a hoot to play.
Man, he's been taking his time with that PM.
On the plus side, the Hero Lab update with the Weapon Masters Handbook will be out soon, so I should be able to be all built up when we start (without custom feats like now)
And there's the post!
The Gameplay has been up for a while.
ok, have a safe trip
OK, weapon masters handbook is now available in Hero Lab. I'd like to revise Churley to take advantage of all the stuff from that. I used a couple of things, but not much since I had to do it by hand.
As we haven't fought anything yet, I figure it shouldn't be a big deal.
Good reminder that I need to sit through a lengthy Herolab update.
We still active?