I'm pretty unfamiliar with the books to be honest. It would help greatly with my backstory if I could get some summaries. If not I can do some light reading to catch up.
1). You know those hags in Book 3? You know, the ones who were working with Boulderbelly and raised the Black Arrows commander as a wight? One of them was Marigold's mother. The Call led right to her. Since you guys almost certainly helped out in that regard, that'll get Mari on your side.
2). Marigold could easily have been a lust target for Aldern. However, if any of you think you'd be a better fit with him, then I'd be good with that.
3). Alright, who wound up with Shayliss? One of us did, dammit, and we need to find out who! Also, dibs on Ameiko. Lastly, what the hell did we do with Nualia? Marigold would be up for a subdue and redeem, because "Paladin." In fact, up until the Grauls, Subdue and Redeem is pretty much Mari's ideal.
As it turns out, I've run RotRL to completion before. Complete 1 to 18 haul. I've got what happens down.
Yeah Marigold I was referencing more things like turning you into a earth elemental (which arguably is humanoid shape and can use weapons) or various monstrous humanoids and the like.
Still need to update with background skills and add a large size statblock.
Grimm John will spend a lot of our time in the wild in giant form. He doesn't really have the charisma or social skills to be a spy or diplomat, but that won't keep him from trying.
Grimm John tried to negotiate a peaceful resolution with Barl Breakbones and his bodyguard when they confronted the stone giant necromancer.
When the necromancer ordered his bodyguard to attack the party, Grimm hulked up to giant size, killed the bodyguard with a lucky hit, and intimidated the necromancer into submission.
I don't know what we did with him after we questioned him.
Marigold, I can cast enlarge person spontaneously out of my first level spell slots, I imagine we've done that a bunch.
I totally need a summery because I have no idea who those npcs are. I also haven't heard of Grauls.
Chirinide might have been the subject of advances. She does like to play with her food ;)
Book 1 has some particularly important parts that definitely deserve more detail. First is one of the best comedy moments in Runelords, Shayless Vender. Shayless asks one of us to help with a rat problem in the basement of the general store. Apparently Sandpoint has very different ideas about what is a rat problem, because once down there, Shayless promptly takes off her top and tries to seduce whoever she brought down. Things become more hilarious as her over-protective father interrupts this attempt. In addition, Shayless' older sister is one of Aldern Foxglove's first victims.
Speaking of Mr. Foxglove, he is also first introduced in Book 1, and takes us on a rather spirited boar hunt. This is where the seeds of his obsession are planted. As it turns out, Aldern owes people a lot of money. Oh, and his grandfather tried to turn himself into a lich, and stained his ancestral home with necromantic energy that created a truly nasty mold (which is incidentally developed into a disease by assassins, but that's another campaign).
And finally, on the thread of Nualia.... If circumstances had been better for her, she would have been a nice person. Think of her as an example of what Marigold could have been, more or less. In particular, you should probably consider us as have finding these.
Oh, and for Book 3... Suffice to say that Marigold has a lot of trouble finding beauty in ogres and any who would work with them. That s$*~ was traumatizing.
Marigold, I can cast enlarge person spontaneously out of my first level spell slots, I imagine we've done that a bunch.
Sadly, the Goliath Druid's Enlarge person only works on them. Which is a disappointment, to say the least. Oh well, Mari probably just stole the whole "hulking out" thing from you after seeing how effective it was.
I totally need a summery because I have no idea who those npcs are. I also haven't heard of Grauls.
The Grauls are.... Ummm.... Have you seen Texas Chainsaw Massacre? It's like that, except worse. Like I said, that s!&# is traumatizing.
Sorry man. Had to answer the question. I'm sure you understand.
After fighting alongside people for a while, Churley will consider them his clan. That's just how Shoanti roll.
He seems very weird to civilized folks, so it is unlikely that any NPCs would be likely to do anything but try to avoid much interaction.
I rather expect that Churley has latched onto Alastar since he's the smartest and treats him as leader/mentor. Think Brain to Churley's Pinky. (no he doesn't say Narf).
"Ummm... Churley? Maybe you should consider yourself a bit smarter. You're smarter than me...."
Actually Churley knows he's smart, but only in the ways of the Shoanti. Everywhere else he considers himself out of his depth and defers to someone he sees as smart.
"Churley smart. Sure. Churley just not understand this Varisia place. Churley follow Bright since him bright. "
When Churley throws that fancy star of his, how does he get it back?
Just noticed that it was listed as 'custom feat' in the output block. Just fixed it.
from Weapon Masters Handbook:
Ricochet Toss (Weapon Mastery)
You are able to angle your thrown weapon attacks in such a way that the weapon ricochets and immediately returns to you.
Prerequisites: Quick Draw, base attack bonus +6, weapon training class feature with a ranged weapon.
Benefit: When you make a ranged attack with an appropriate thrown weapon, the weapon returns to your hand immediately after the attack is resolved. This ability does not allow bullets, thrown ammunition such as darts or shuriken, or thrown splash weapons to return to you. Improvised thrown weapons don’t return to you unless you have the Throw Anything feat.
Still waiting for the latest update to Hero Lab so it is present. Had to toss in a couple of things by hand until the update.
That's a cool feat.
It looks like you could two weapon fight with one weapon using that feat, alternately catching and throwing with either hand.
In theory I suppose you could. I'd rather have a shield.
Very much a necessary feat for them to write if they wanted thrown weapons as a viable option (well other than making blinkback belts mandatory). The WMH has a lot of love for thrown weapons actually. Likely I will run out of feats on this build before I get everything I'd like to have. Again though, everything ranged but bows has feat taxes to be workable (I need quickdraw and ricochet toss to even function, and I get nothing comparable to manyshot).
There's also a ranged weapon style called startoss style which I'll pick up. The advanced weapon mastery stuff has some good options I want. Already took one in Armed Bravery which applies the bravery feature to all will saves. The WMH is probably the best burst of love for the fighter since pathfinder came out. It does a decent job of putting them back into the running as a viable class.
I have a retired PFS thrower who has the blinkback belt. He's a paladin/fighter and actually pretty damned effective. I could probably make a case for him being more effective than Churley, though that is smite dependent.
Alastar is the handsome wizard....
OK, while looking through everyone's stat blocks to figure out who fits Shayless' profile by the standard pick listed in the books, I looked at Chirinide's sheet. And, not to be rude or anything, but.... I have absolutely no idea what class she is, what level she is, or why on earth she was allowed the were-tiger template. Maybe I'm just missing something here, but I'm feeling a bit... Leery of her now.
I'm assuming the alias has to be a placeholder waiting to be filled in with the character for this. Otherwise, I'm in your boat.
Oh, and I doubt Shayless would be interested in the quirky Churley. He really don't grasp social norms.
As I understand it from the recruitment thread, Chirinide is a Rogue2/Sorcerer9/Half-Elf/Weretiger.
Umm, how can they be 11th level and still a weretiger? That's a hell of a lot of benefit for no cost.
Hold on. So let me get this straight. She still counts as 11th level, but unlike the rest of us chumps who went with (relatively in my case) normal races, she gets to have (whenever she wants to be a half-normal/half-animal thing):
DR 10/Silver (Even a Invulnerable Rager or Geokineticist would only have 5/- by this level.)
+5 natural armor (before magic items)
A +2 in Wisdom, Strength, and Consitituion including the floating +2 that a Half-elf gets, in exchange for a -2 to Charisma.
POUNCE
Rake (2 extra claws for 1d8+6 each)
A bite (2d6+6 with grab)
Str 23, Dex 22, and Con 17 (3 points more than Marigold's Greater Bloodrage in strength, only one less for Con. Except this isn't limited by rounds per day, and can be kept up all the time)
11th level casting as a Sorcerer (9 levels of Sorceror)
+2d6 sneak attack (2 levels of Rogue)
Evasion (2 levels of rogue)
Other class goodies
Yeah.... Ummm... Look, I'll just be frank. I'm not going to play with this. That is how much of a problem I consider it. I may be somewhat selfish in this regard, but I'm not going to play in a game where I'm hopelessly outshined by someone who's the "same" level as me.
To be quite honest, I forgot about that. She is an existing character (hence the older, unrefined sheet layout). I can drop a few more levels if desired. Though her power is split between magic and melee, so it isn't as bad as it could be.
3 lvls of rogue, 8 of sorcerer, cl is only 10.
Dex and cha are bumped by +6 magic items. Which can also be removed if desired.
Also, in tiger form, magic can't be used, which is two thirds of my levels. Could always deny use of hybrid form, which is the powerful one cause that gives all benefits, otherwise, I only gain the best of lycanthropes when shifted into animal form where I can't use spells.
Also, most classes with DR also wear armor. Chirinide does not have armor, she relies on those natural defenses rather than building upon them.
AC is only 17 or 23, so not exactly high for this level.
If she were a fighter or similar, it would be far worse, particularly hybrid form, but as 2/3rds spellcaster, far less of a problem, particularly if she can't take hybrid form.
You may also want to look at her last game, or even just her posts for the last game. I'm not an optimizer, nor do I play like one.
I hope to actually play with you guys and alleviate and worries. I don't think the problem is that big, but I don't mind accepting some limits to make everyone feel more comfortable.
I agree that the character isn't optimized around being a were-tiger, but I feel like there should be some level adjustment for the benefits it brings.
I can check the relevant 3.5 book when I'm home. They did have in depth rules for monsters as PCs.
In 3.5, afflicted lycans were 2 ecl, while natural were 3ecl.
I think the race guide has a good point about reducing that as total character level goes up, so that may a good spot to check as well.
Pathfinder classes tend to be more powerful as well despite leaving DCs and similar mostly similar.
Part of the problem is that the CR+1 adjustment on the lycanthrope template applies across every animal type.
A were-tiger is a +1 CR adjustment, but so is a much less powerful were-wolf and an even less powerful were-rat.
A were-tiger (S:23,D:15,C:17,I:2,W:12,Cha:6 - Large size) and a were-leapard (S:16,D:19,C:15,I:2,W:13,Cha:6 - Medium size) really shouldn't be the same.
Alright. So, I went ahead and took the liberty of math-hammering things in the race builder from the Advanced Race Guide. The half-elf has a base cost of 10 Race Points, and you keep all its advantages when you shift to hybrid, so I added things up from there to get what she'd have in hybrid form. Here are the results:
Specialized Ability Modifiers (+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha) - 1 RP
Large (+2 Str, -2 Dex, other benefits) - 7 RP
Advanced Strength x2 (+4 Str, still one short of Lycanthrope boost as were-tiger) - 9 RP
Advanced Constitution (+2 Con, still one short) - 4 RP
Advanced Wisdom (+2 Wisdom, and only way to fully replicate the base lycanthrope adjustments) - 4 RP
DR 10/Silver (Some rule-bending needed to get this to work here, but should be roughly equivalent to alignment DR. Moon-touched Damage Resistance gives DR 5/Silver for 3 RP) - 8 RP
+5 Natural Armor - 12 RP
Bite - 1 RP
Claws - 2 RP
Scent - 4 RP
Things that can not be replicated with Race Builder:
Grab with Bite
Rake
Pounce
Total Race Point Cost w/ Half-Elf - 62
The most expensive creature made in the race-builder is the Gargoyle, which costs a grand total of 36 Race Points. I'll be happy to kit-bash things to help build something that still has the flavor you want. In particular, I recommend just being a skinwalker. But I'm going to stand by my "Not playing with a were-tiger" statement still.
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I personally think scaling down to a were-leopard (medium instead of large) with a level adjustment would work.
But it's not my game or my call.
If I was building a were-tiger I'd do it using some class/archetype that granted wildshape on top of the skinwalker archetype. (Lion shaman on top of a skinwalker gets you a pretty effective shapechanging cat character with human, hybrid, and animal forms. Celestial wildshape gives you DR.)
The same way that when I wanted to play a giant I used a class that let me change shape into a giant.
I personally think scaling down to a were-leopard (medium instead of large) with a level adjustment would work.
But it's not my game or my call.
If I was building a were-tiger I'd do it using some class/archetype that granted wildshape on top of the skinwalker archetype. (Lion shaman on top of a skinwalker gets you a pretty effective shapechanging cat character with human, hybrid, and animal forms. Celestial wildshape gives you DR.)
The same way that when I wanted to play a giant I used a class that let me change shape into a giant.
This, all the way! Alternatively, if you want to keep that whole trickster vibe you've got going on while still being a shapechanger who's good at magic, I would recommend going Kitsune. They've got a feat chain that lets them pick up pounce, and rock at using rogue and sorcerer.
Quite honestly I'd rather drop the hybrid form rather than the full animal form. Tiger version of a kitsune you could say.
The skinwalker, from my brief overview (never heard of them before so thanks for the link), seems to drop the animal form instead, and reduces the hybrid.
The hybrid is the most powerful form, but the least essential to the concept of lycanthrope, particularly my character.
With Chirinide, the idea was to have the half elf mage who shifts into a tiger warrior. Origin story and all is based on clans of folks who could take animal form.
The flavor of that shifting physically between magic or combat is really what I like. The character doesn't really see either form as anything but her natural self.
Mechanically, the hybrid form always seemed like cheating to me. Flavorful sure, but gaining all advantages of both other forms. I can do without that and not feel a twinge of regret.
I really have no idea what you are talking about with classes, so Ill look it up.
The specific stats of high ability scores, 10 DR and +5 nat armor (I saw as good replacement for lack of armor), but certainly not essential to the character. Could reduce or eliminate those if desired.
Well, if you want an elf caster who can shift into a tiger warrior, then John's suggestion of being a Lion Shaman is king. A Skinwalker (base or Were-tiger kin could both work well) Lion Shaman keeps all of your flavor intact, but without the unliked parts of being a Lycanthrope (like being able to turn giants into were-tigers, or the DR that's getting as good as a 20th level Invulnerable Rager). It does require some changes stat-wise and the like, but again, I can definitely help out on that if needed. While this does give us some Druid overlap, this is not necessarily a bad thing.
Alright. So, now that that's handled with for now.... Onto the actual fun bits! I personally think that the Shayless problem is best thrown into the lap of Alastar (Mildly attractive nerd could be hilarious, and kids become a real possibility depending) or Marigold (Worships Shelyn, remember?). My personal vote is on Alastar myself.
As for Aldern, I think a lust obsession would be good for Marigold. Besides, it's appropriately creepy, and it's fun.
Also, we need to determine who did what with each major "boss" we've encountered so far. In that vein, I've got my votes.
Nualia: Beaten to unconsciousness, turned over to Magnimar
Aldern Foxglove: Dead, unfortunately.
Judge Ironbriar: Alive, tried for his involvement in the Skinsaw Cult.
Xanesha: Dead.
The Grauls: DEAD.
Barl Breakbones: Dead. He's a bit spoiler-rific for book 4. So while your idea is awesome, John.... Yeah. He's got too much information for Mokmurian to let him live. We could totally make it so that he's magic'd up so that if he tries to spill the beans after being terrified into compliance by us, he dies.
Savage Species is a bit thin on Lycanthropes. They are just described as a +3 level adjustment in general.
How about this,
3 Monstrous Humanoid
7 Large size
0 Standard +2 str, +2 Wis, -2 int
0 Standard languages
0 Speed 30'
-2 Darkvision removed
1 lowlight vision
4 Scent
2 Claws
2 Bite d6
3 DR 5/Silver
2 Bonus to Perception
3 Change Shape Lesser
1 Feline Empathy (reworked rodent empathy)
1 Camouflage
2 Quadruped
1 Fast
30 points as is, though quadruped is a bit overpriced since it assumes arms, I also had to remove darkvision from the type, I just took the cost of darkvision and subtracted it.
(for interesting reference, though I removed these,
You could add Grabbing appendages to take the place of Grab and Rake for 6 points. Powerful Charge can take the place of Pounce for 2 points. Add anywhere from 2 - 12 for Nat armor. For 40 points or so.)
Basically, the half elf form is the alternate shape, while this "race" is the basic Tiger form. The ability scores stay the same instead of changing. Quadruped of course, save that tigers have no arms so it is probably overpriced. Still at 30 points, the guide suggests a +2 ecl till lvl 5 and a +1 ecl till lvl 10.
Anyway, thought I present this build. Much calmer than 60 points, and with the defenses stripped...
Also, no need to even pretend on the curse, can just say it is in the blood like with kitsune, rather than a curse to be passed on through bite.
By going from a human to a custom 30 point build I could add:
+4 to all physical stats and wisdom, with only -2 to charisma
+2 dodge bonus to AC
+1 natural armor bonus.
Some of those bonuses cannot be replaced easily by magic.
So basically you just want a leg up. Others have managed to accomplish their goal by using a normal race and class features. Why exactly do you get to just make a custom race to get around that?
As far as building a custom race, you have to be humanoid(giant) to take large size.
For comparison:
A Kitsune's lesser change shape power let's them go from a hairy fox faced person into a not so hairy human faced person. Not from human to tiger.
They have to spend a feat to get the ability to change into a goofy little fox (not a combat form).
Again, you could get very close to your character concept by being a Hunter (Feral Hunter) 8 / rogue 3 with the Shapeshifting Focus feat.
That would give you spontaneous casting, full druid wildshape into animals, rogue abilities and sneak attacks, 8th level animal focus (+4 enhancement to 2 physical stats).
I'm personally highly against using the race builder. It's unbalanced, and gives some extremely powerful options for very little. My thought on the matter is that the rest of us used normal races, and got what we wanted through class abilities. John has given you numerous helpful suggestions to help you concept remain intact, and I think that they would definitely help keep you in line with the rest of us power-wise as well. Add in the DM approval of these ideas, and I think it would be a good option to help you out.
First, large size needs the giant subtype if and only if, you also have the humanoid base type. It does not require having the humanoid type.
Second, I did not just go grab stuff from the builder that was cool. I took my existing character and concept and built that, without some of the more powerful options. Basically I made a weaker version of what I already had. That is completely different from just making some new concept.
Three, this is an existing and developed character, not something new to be radically altered and changed before becoming established.
Fourth, classes I've never heard of that radically change the character and her history/background, saving only some lesser version of transformation which has no conection to what her transformation is suppossed to be.
Fifth, changing from a tiger to a half-elf isn't even the issue. It isn't powerful really. The powerful aspects were the hybrid form that got the best of everything. The tiger form gets scent, and pounce or grab. Okay stuff, helpful sure. The real power stuff is the DR, nat armor, and curse. I offered a removal of two and reduced the third, which also removed some additonal stuff from the tiger that wasn't bad, but not game breaking. All of that plus lower level overall.
So quite honestly, what exactly is the problem? You said you were afraid of being outshined because of my power. What is so powerful about what I suggested. Regardless of whether it gets played or not, I don't understand what the problem is. Do you honestly have that big of a problem with a single alternate form that can not use most lf my class levels? And why would I want wildshape, which just detracts from my one alternate shape?
You had a problem with power. Okay, that I get. You keep suggesting fundemental changes that alter the core of the character herself. So how about you clarify what exactly is so powerful about it.
What was posted before implied the issue was DR, nat armor (despite applying when I don't get to have manufactured armor), some stat bonuses, pounce, rake, and a bite (the last three usable when I lack manufactured anything). Honestly, I can see that as being a problem in hybrid form, as I get all that plus everything else. But without hybrid, those issues are severly lessened. Even then, I removed most of those aspects.
The 30 pt build also makes three false assumptions, first, it assumes all abilities are available all the time, but truthfully, some are only available as a tiger, second, it assumes all class abilities are available all the time, but I can't cast spells as a tiger unless the GM allows the Natural Spell feat to apply (and I take it), and third, it assumes that equipment is usable all the time, but truthfully, as a tiger I get zero equipment (though passive magic items still function). As a tiger, I get no armor and only a bite and claw attacks. Sneak attack if I'm lucky will still fall way short of a fighter on normal.
All in all, considering that I will accept a lower level, made worse from cross classing, and the limitations above. What is there left that you consider so overpowering?
I kinda need to understand this.