Yep. More tools for different jobs. Even more debuff, attack single target would probably help. You don't want to be dropping solar detonation or ignite the sun on a single target. It seems like overkill and is unwieldy.
I'm not complaining about the elemental blast damage. It's a little low IMO and could use more enhancement through the gate attenuator but as you stated it's a third action.Basically, you want some higher level two or three action single target impulses similar to e.g. Execute?
I do see the appeal, though given the constantly available nature of impulses I also can see the worry that it'd end up like Starlight Span, where the best thing to do is get in range and just keep blasting. AoEs generally require some amount of movement and rethinking to keep extracting maximum value out of them, at least.
It's also a problem since kineticist can effectively only target reflex saves. Martials can mostly only target AC but that's accounted for with the fact that their buffs range from a +2 (offguard) to +5 (off guard and +3 status)
For the record, there are some single target impulses, though they're far and few between. Interestingly enough, they're mostly composite.
- Lightning rod
- Ambush Bladderwort
- Whirling Grindstone
- Elemental Artillery
- Molten wire
- Sand Snatcher
- Conductive Sphere
- Witchwood seed
Also, Desert Wind has a bigger bonus on single target, to the point where double-boomerang is the best DPS against solo targets at higher levels.
I'm not saying you're wrong because you're right, we do need more single target impulses, and most of them suck pretty hard right now.
But they do exist.
Personally I'm happy with the damage of most overflow impulses (45ish to 55ish for 2 to 3 actions respectively). My personal wish is for every impulse to be able to target any 2 of AC, fortitude, reflex, or will to deal damage. i also usually pass up impulses that come up against a lot of immunities because I prefer consistency but that's just my preference.
I played a caster up to 20 in my last campaign, and picking spells that targeted a variety of defenses and damage types felt very impactful. Had I only been able to target reflex and physical damage, I would have felt pretty hamstrung, and that's with spells that deal a lot more damage than impulses would. Not sure if I'll get to play a kineticist to 20 to compare, but it does worry me a bit considering the huge bags of hp enemies have late game.
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Thats very similar to how most martials interact with enemy defences aswell.
Well, the big difference is that AC is somewhat normalized because it's the main way martials interact with enemies.
Saves by design have a much wider range to encourage targeting weaknesses.
Which puts kineticists in a very odd spot since they have limited flexiblity.
Blasts are a fallback but we just were talking about how they're kind of undercooked rn.
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IN EVERY CASE forking the path Is Better than taking water's junctions (except the impulse One), in. Every. Single. CaseI disagree. Fire is a very common damage type, and so resistance to it for yourself or your party in your aura is decent.
Water aura is infamously terrible because it's fire resistance to "creatures" in your aura. It shuts off fire runes for allies trying to strike enemies in your aura and blunts fire spells your casters try on them.
Every single other elemental aura junction specifies "allies" or "enemies" and doesn't have this problem.
And, no, Safe Elements doesn't solve it. It only allows you to exclude enemies from a stance impluse that affects your kinetic aura, not the kinetic aura junctions.
i don't really like your comparison Is that most of the impulses you bring up are weak too in my book:
That is my point, none of these are super great, but I was comparing apples to apples.
-lightning Dash Is Simply weird AF by a design standpoint.
You turn to lightning and zip through your enemies with really good damage, what is "weird"? Also by saying it's weird, you can dismiss it out of hand without engaging in a substantive argument.
-lava leap Is 4 actions worth of stuff in two: stride that ignores difficult terrain, +2 circumstance AC, decent damage which It's only gonna use to proc the weakness anyway (plus deals bludgeoning damage too, which Is the best physical type in the game). Lava leap Is honestly the best composite impulse
I agree lava leap is good, but it also has its drawbacks. It's damage is on the low end of all of these and now you are stuck next to the enemy. Also it triggers reactions, whereas lightning dash doesn't.
-blazing wave: It does d8s, there's no One in this universe that's not gonna take pure Fire impulses without the impulse junction, It's basically Needed in this case.
Plus It has a much Better area and overall It's the best damage impulse It has.
You literally just said that forking the path is always better, that means you are much less likely to get the impulse junction than a mono-element. Also this is just damage. Everything else gives you something extra and damage.
Yeah in my mind, comparing casters to kineticists in the blasting department, I think kineticist are behind in three categories. Damage types (some elements can only do a couple damage types), defense targetting (some elements can only target reflex with impulses, and as stated a few times now elemental blasting only is not going to feel good when you come up against a high reflex enemy), and pure power (most of the better damaging impulses are around 2 spell ranks of damage behind the same level characters actual highest level spells and focus spells).
2 of the three of can be solved by some element combos (honestly I'm fine with impulses being behind spells in pure power terms), and that's the point I'm trying to make. A single element kineticist should have more options to help with their shortcomings, not feel 'forced' to mix elements to be able to target different saves or damage types. And to make it so adding impulses doesn't just make mixing elements even stronger by adding even more options everywhere, new impulses added should be mono element only. That's my opinion.
Right now I love kineticists, the one I'm playing and ones I'm planning on playing, but they are all multi element. I don't think I have theorycrafted a single element kineticist that compares to a multi element one. That's how I feel anyway.
[
Bluntly speaking you seem to hugely value damage over, like... everything else, you primary complaint is always damage and heightened damage of impulses. And... yeah, if you always are looking for top damage, run Fire, that's the point? The other elements aren't supposed to compete with fire impulses on damage! If you play a wood kineticist, just, like, make your trees* (making trees can involve healing, walls, difficult terrain...)
I do value damage in this case because it's a good 70% of what the impulse has to offer.
I'm not gonna complain that slow doesn't do damage cause it's slow, hell It might as well One of the best spells in the game if scaled to It's size.
But we're talking about impulses where the secondary effect Is "push them 5 feets" or "give +1 status to hit to electricity attacks" which basically boils down to "slight inconvenience", In that case HECK YEAH i'm gonna expect those impulses to have good damage, of i'm not here for the effect i'm here for the damage.
There are cases in which this doesn't apply and i'm content with them: Timber sentinel It's already broken ad It Is, the various Wall impulses don't Need to do damage heck they can basically cheese any non Flying creature, Ravel of thorns'es damage Is a cool plus but obviusly not the Main point! That's a good balance of damage and effect, log bait (badumptss, Clash royal pun) Isn't.
Water aura is infamously terrible because it's fire resistance to "creatures" in your aura. It shuts off fire runes for allies trying to strike enemies in your aura and blunts fire spells your casters try on them.Every single other elemental aura junction specifies "allies" or "enemies" and doesn't have this problem.
And, no, Safe Elements doesn't solve it. It only allows you to exclude enemies from a stance impluse that affects your kinetic aura, not the kinetic aura junctions.
Er- Safe Elements applies to the "benefits of your kinetic aura" ... I'm not sure there's any way to read your aura junction as not that.
The real drawback is that if you use Safe Elements to turn off a positive aura benefit you can't use Pacifying to AoE around your allies.
You turn to lightning and zip through your enemies with really good damage, what is "weird"? Also by saying it's weird, you can dismiss it out of hand without engaging in a substantive argument.
I agree lava leap is good, but it also has its drawbacks. It's damage is on the low end of all of these and now you are stuck next to the enemy. Also it triggers reactions, whereas lightning dash doesn't.
You literally just said that forking the path is always better, that means you are much less likely to get the impulse junction than a mono-element. Also this is just damage. Everything else gives you something extra and damage.
1- you're right, "weird" doesn't really cut It, i'll be more specific: It's a counter intuitive design, air Is not a melee focused element like Fire or Earth are, so an impulse that goes "get in melee man" IS kinda weird in my books. It's Indeed pretty strong if you also take Earth and do the whole air boomerang juggle.
2- Lava leap's low damage doesn't really count since Fire's overall dps (until you get to level 20 and have the Two level 18's impulses) mostly relies on triggering weakness Two times per round, lava leap It's strong because:
-it partially fixes kineticist's AWFULL action economy, putting It on par with a normal martial.
-gives the kineticist a bit of survivability so that It can go melee without being nuclearized instantly.
PS: in case you wounder, since Fire/Earth Is a melee focused combination i don't think it's weird that It puts you near the enemy, It IS what you want to do.
3- i'm hyperbolic, in this case i was factually wrong, to be more precise; forking the path It's almost Always worth, the exceptions are: Fire aura/impulse junction, air impulse junction, earth aura/skill junction, wood impulse junction; in every other case, except if you wanna deliberately be a worst character, It's Better to fork the path
Point blank: I'm highly skeptical you will see 'this one gets better damage in exchange for not doing anything else' impulses being released officially, ever.
I wouldn't really mind that, cool effects ARE fun to play with (heck, fighter's whole deal It's applying shit through hitting people) BUUT they also have to be worth applying.
(Practical example: great expense of the Bluest Sky or whatever Is, by all means, WORSE than the spell "slow"... Now, i understand that at Will stuff Is strong but an 18 level feat being weaker than a third level spell Is embarassing)On a second note, i think that paizo really has to give kineticist a way to get decent effects on a successful save cause that's the way It works for every other caster, and they can target weak save, a kineticist cannot.
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One thing I asked for even way back in the playtest, was just a simple kineticist feat, not tied to any element, that does aoe damage of a type you can do with your elemental blast. Basic, no nonsense, no extra effect. I wouldn't want it to deal more damage than any other overflows or anything, but an option to have that just works across any element would be great. 1d8/2 levels, in a cone, line or burst (chosen when you take the feat) of a damage type you can deal with your elemental blast.
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You turn to lightning and zip through your enemies with really good damage, what is "weird"? Also by saying it's weird, you can dismiss it out of hand without engaging in a substantive argument.
1- you're right, "weird" doesn't really cut It, i'll be more specific: It's a counter intuitive design, air Is not a melee focused element like Fire or Earth are, so an impulse that goes "get in melee man" IS kinda weird in my books. It's Indeed pretty strong if you also take Earth and do the whole air boomerang juggle.
It's as much "escape from melee" - Lightning Dash 30+ feet with no (non-concentrate) reaction triggers, free half stride from air impulse, one action left to stride/step before or after to further set up or optimally set up your Lightning Dash to get two enemies as you break contact.
Or with air impulse and a stride tacked on for positioning and movement before/after it's "move from just out of melee range to just out of melee range on the other side of the map" especially once Cyconic Ascent is online and you can just zoom yourself straight up in the air 20 or 40' after you finish the Dash.
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A reliable, free 5 foot push is incredibly powerful if you have some slam down martials in your group and some difficult terrain or jagged berms type ability going on. Enemy has to move into reach with you again, making it just as good as slow, and can trigger RS.
[QUOTE
Please remember that kineticists are infinite impulse users - the non-overflow impulses can't be better than e.g. Slam Down on fighters because they have the exact same cost as Slam Down aka a feat and nothing else.So yes, they will only get good effects on save fails because that's how those kinds of actions are costed and spells (especially the overtuned spells like slow) are going to be better at the non-scaling parts of their kit. That's balance!
I wholeheartedly disagree.
They should be Better because they have a bigger cost than slam down; kineticists do not have basic actions that are worthwhile pursuing (maneuvers, strikes) therefore their spells, aka feats, have a relative higher build cost.
Secondly, that's not balance, that's a misunderstanding of the average adventuring day.
Theoretically It sounds Fair, "if you can cast It every turn then you only get something on a fail, if you have limitations you get something on a save too" but this ignores the complexities of the actual game:
-versatility: kineticist can only target AC (and they can't even do It properly cause those impulses are mostly crap, plus they're not able to use archetype spells to fix that) and reflex; casters can competently target every save. Casters also have a MUUUCH larger selection of good spells that are able to cover every situation, kineticists have at most 17 impulses which they can't swap and are mostly damage.
-actual resource management: Casters do not end up without spells at the end of the day from level 9 and above, cases of 5/6 severe encounters a day are a baffling proposition. Kineticist can have an actual mmo rotation, but that's more of an ease of play thing not an actual advantage.
-"and the target Is immune for ten minutes": most impulses that actually have a worthwhile effect not only have It only on a failed save but also have this dumbass thing that you can only use It once per fight on a target, making them practically useless againts a boss (like EVERYTHING in the kineticist kit except grappling) and weak againts multiple enemies. The "infinite spam every turn" doesn't even work in this case! They become like casters but with less spellslots and without an effect on a save (aka, the only reason casters are able to function againts non pl-2 enemies).
I don't mean to sound harsh but that's not balance, that's being incompetent and ONLY playtesting your stuff in those dumb "moderate with tons of enemies" encounters that somehow paizo thinks are a good rappresentation of the game.
I would like more impulses though, but more importantly, more elements. Aether and void have been mentioned in Rage of Elements already and are probably the only two elements I could see making an apparition later down the line in this edition, specially with the SF2e compatibility.
I am a big fan of this idea, I also would love to see the addition Aether and Void elements.
Agreed
- A feat or impulse that treats Blasts as Strikes or Spells;
- The ability to swap damage types if you know more than one element; (ex: Aerial Boomerang dealing Fire damage)
- Expanded elemental damage types;
* FEAT: Expanded Versatile Blasts
* EFFECT: add "air = sonic, earth = acid, fire = electricity, metal = poison, water = fire, wood = acid."
- Expanded weapon traits;
* FEAT: Expanded Weapon Infusion
* EFFECT: add more traits, like Razing, Backstabber, Disarm, Trip, etc...
- More composite impulses;
* 3-element impulses, if doable
* 6-element impulse
- Aether Element
- Void Element
- Spiritual Element, or "Light", with impulses related to illusion spells
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I wholeheartedly disagree.
...
I strongly disagree with you, it isn't what I saw in practice.
They should be Better because they have a bigger cost than slam down; kineticists do not have basic actions that are worthwhile pursuing (maneuvers, strikes) therefore their spells, aka feats, have a relative higher build cost.
We need to remember also that due to the nature of impulses being feats that are also accessible via archetypes and there are a lot of useful impulses to be used by other classes like Four Winds, Stepping Stones, Timber Sentinel, Lightning Dash, Return to the Sea, Thermal Nimbus, Winter Sleet, Clear as Air, Consume Power, Volcanic Escape, Wooden Palisade, Kindle Inner Flames, Spike Skin, Scrap Barricade, Cyclonic Ascent, Impenetrable Fog and other impulses that I have not listed here due many reasons.
So impulses still need to be balanced around the normal feats power budged, specially those below level 10 because effectively they are accessible by other classes too.
-versatility: kineticist can only target AC (and they can't even do It properly cause those impulses are mostly crap, plus they're not able to use archetype spells to fix that) and reflex; casters can competently target every save. Casters also have a MUUUCH larger selection of good spells that are able to cover every situation, kineticists have at most 17 impulses which they can't swap and are mostly damage.
-actual resource management: Casters do not end up without spells at the end of the day from level 9 and above, cases of 5/6 severe encounters a day are a baffling proposition. Kineticist can have an actual mmo rotation, but that's more of an ease of play thing not an actual advantage.
What!? One of the most common saves that kineticists target is fortitude. The only save that is uncommon to a kineticist to target is will, but this is generally common to other primal casters too.
Also, you are underestimating the casters' situation too. Casters have a larger set of spell options than kineticists, but it is limited in other ways. They can only prepare the spells in their specific rank slots or higher. This means the only top 3 rank spell slots that usually worth, and you are limited to use lower rank spells if you want to save spells between encounters. Considering that most encounters take 3–5 rounds, you probably cannot use more than 1 spell per rank in an encounter if your daily encounters are around 3–4 encounters.
Kineticists impulses are weaker (specially in mid-levels. In a low and high level game I have difficult to keep stating this, specially for fire) but all them heighten with you. So your level 1 flying flame still a thing specially when combed with file aura weakness and an Ignite the Sun different from a magic missile force barrage or a burning hands [i]breathe fire that becomes obsolete after some levels.
Kineticists also are able to change their impulses due Reflow/Rapid Reattunement allowing to multi-element kineticists to adapt very well to the most situations outside combat.
-”and the target Is immune for ten minutes”: most impulses that actually have a worthwhile effect not only have It only on a failed save but also have this dumbass thing that you can only use It once per fight on a target, making them practically useless againts a boss (like EVERYTHING in the kineticist kit except grappling) and weak againts multiple enemies. The “infinite spam every turn” doesn't even work in this case! They become like casters but with less spellslots and without an effect on a save (aka, the only reason casters are able to function againts non pl-2 enemies).
10 minutes immunity per target is pretty OK IMO. Remember, casters can cast no more than 4 top spells per day. It's very unlikely that you will save all then to the boss. You probably will use some then along the daily encounters to a point where when you face a boss you probably won't have more than 1 or 2 top spell slots. Don't expect that a caster will save their top “weapons” to an encounter that they don't know when and if it will happen in that day.
Remaster we won't get because RoE is already a ORC book already adjusted for remastered core books.
Mythic rules are something that need a complete overhaul since the release it isn't a specific problem of kineticists, other classes like magus doesn't work well with current mythic rules.
The rest I agree.
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It would be cool to add the ability to juice up other people’s spells of the same element. Add oomph to a friend’s fireball, for example. I’d prefer that sort of team interaction over what kinetic activation provides.