Fabios's page

So we're talking about Shield Block soaking up damage. How much damage should a shield absorb, keeping in mind its Hardness? If Raising a Shield is already valuable, how many hit points should Shield Block help on top of that? It's a cheap feat that comes w/ several classes so that alone doesn't warrant too many hit points (we're talking comparable to Toughness). And the costs mentioned above seem balanced vs. the +2 AC alone, so then there's spending one's Reaction. The price of a Reaction is hard to measure vs. say an at-level False Vitality (whose...

The cost Is the exorbitant amount of Gold you're forced to spend.

Like, i don't understand what you're trying to Say, using shields It's not cheap, hell, to keep up you Need at least TWO fully upgraded shields and that only lasts for a fairly short fight.
I have a character based around shield usage and other than carrying multiple shields (shield runes where, overall, quite useless. Except three shields i've Always used and Always Will use sturdy ones) i've also planned to take second shield, but gave up on It since the Viking archetype would be otherwise useless

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Please remember that kineticists are infinite impulse users - the non-overflow impulses can't be better than e.g. Slam Down on fighters because they have the exact same cost as Slam Down aka a feat and nothing else.

So yes, they will only get good effects on save fails because that's how those kinds of actions are costed and spells (especially the overtuned spells like slow) are going to be better at the non-scaling parts of their kit. That's balance!

I wholeheartedly disagree.

They should be Better because they have a bigger cost than slam down; kineticists do not have basic actions that are worthwhile pursuing (maneuvers, strikes) therefore their spells, aka feats, have a relative higher build cost.

Secondly, that's not balance, that's a misunderstanding of the average adventuring day.
Theoretically It sounds Fair, "if you can cast It every turn then you only get something on a fail, if you have limitations you get something on a save too" but this ignores the complexities of the actual game:

-versatility: kineticist can only target AC (and they can't even do It properly cause those impulses are mostly crap, plus they're not able to use archetype spells to fix that) and reflex; casters can competently target every save. Casters also have a MUUUCH larger selection of good spells that are able to cover every situation, kineticists have at most 17 impulses which they can't swap and are mostly damage.

-actual resource management: Casters do not end up without spells at the end of the day from level 9 and above, cases of 5/6 severe encounters a day are a baffling proposition. Kineticist can have an actual mmo rotation, but that's more of an ease of play thing not an actual advantage.

-"and the target Is immune for ten minutes": most impulses that actually have a worthwhile effect not only have It only on a failed save but also have this dumbass thing that you can only use It once per fight on a target, making them practically useless againts a boss (like EVERYTHING in the kineticist kit except grappling) and weak againts multiple enemies. The "infinite spam every turn" doesn't even work in this case! They become like casters but with less spellslots and without an effect on a save (aka, the only reason casters are able to function againts non pl-2 enemies).

I don't mean to sound harsh but that's not balance, that's being incompetent and ONLY playtesting your stuff in those dumb "moderate with tons of enemies" encounters that somehow paizo thinks are a good rappresentation of the game.

Point blank: I'm highly skeptical you will see 'this one gets better damage in exchange for not doing anything else' impulses being released officially, ever.

I wouldn't really mind that, cool effects ARE fun to play with (heck, fighter's whole deal It's applying shit through hitting people) BUUT they also have to be worth applying.

On a second note, i think that paizo really has to give kineticist a way to get decent effects on a successful save cause that's the way It works for every other caster, and they can target weak save, a kineticist cannot.

You turn to lightning and zip through your enemies with really good damage, what is "weird"? Also by saying it's weird, you can dismiss it out of hand without engaging in a substantive argument.

I agree lava leap is good, but it also has its drawbacks. It's damage is on the low end of all of these and now you are stuck next to the enemy. Also it triggers reactions, whereas lightning dash doesn't.

You literally just said that forking the path is always better, that means you are much less likely to get the impulse junction than a mono-element. Also this is just damage. Everything else gives you something extra and damage.

1- you're right, "weird" doesn't really cut It, i'll be more specific: It's a counter intuitive design, air Is not a melee focused element like Fire or Earth are, so an impulse that goes "get in melee man" IS kinda weird in my books. It's Indeed pretty strong if you also take Earth and do the whole air boomerang juggle.

2- Lava leap's low damage doesn't really count since Fire's overall dps (until you get to level 20 and have the Two level 18's impulses) mostly relies on triggering weakness Two times per round, lava leap It's strong because:
-it partially fixes kineticist's AWFULL action economy, putting It on par with a normal martial.
-gives the kineticist a bit of survivability so that It can go melee without being nuclearized instantly.
PS: in case you wounder, since Fire/Earth Is a melee focused combination i don't think it's weird that It puts you near the enemy, It IS what you want to do.

3- i'm hyperbolic, in this case i was factually wrong, to be more precise; forking the path It's almost Always worth, the exceptions are: Fire aura/impulse junction, air impulse junction, earth aura/skill junction, wood impulse junction; in every other case, except if you wanna deliberately be a worst character, It's Better to fork the path

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Bluntly speaking you seem to hugely value damage over, like... everything else, you primary complaint is always damage and heightened damage of impulses. And... yeah, if you always are looking for top damage, run Fire, that's the point? The other elements aren't supposed to compete with fire impulses on damage! If you play a wood kineticist, just, like, make your trees* (making trees can involve healing, walls, difficult terrain...)

I do value damage in this case because it's a good 70% of what the impulse has to offer.

I'm not gonna complain that slow doesn't do damage cause it's slow, hell It might as well One of the best spells in the game if scaled to It's size.
But we're talking about impulses where the secondary effect Is "push them 5 feets" or "give +1 status to hit to electricity attacks" which basically boils down to "slight inconvenience", In that case HECK YEAH i'm gonna expect those impulses to have good damage, of i'm not here for the effect i'm here for the damage.

There are cases in which this doesn't apply and i'm content with them: Timber sentinel It's already broken ad It Is, the various Wall impulses don't Need to do damage heck they can basically cheese any non Flying creature, Ravel of thorns'es damage Is a cool plus but obviusly not the Main point! That's a good balance of damage and effect, log bait (badumptss, Clash royal pun) Isn't.

Ryangwy wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

I'm not complaining about the elemental blast damage. It's a little low IMO and could use more enhancement through the gate attenuator but as you stated it's a third action.

Basically, you want some higher level two or three action single target impulses similar to e.g. Execute?

I do see the appeal, though given the constantly available nature of impulses I also can see the worry that it'd end up like Starlight Span, where the best thing to do is get in range and just keep blasting. AoEs generally require some amount of movement and rethinking to keep extracting maximum value out of them, at least.

Yep. More tools for different jobs. Even more debuff, attack single target would probably help. You don't want to be dropping solar detonation or ignite the sun on a single target. It seems like overkill and is unwieldy.

It's also a problem since kineticist can effectively only target reflex saves. Martials can mostly only target AC but that's accounted for with the fact that their buffs range from a +2 (offguard) to +5 (off guard and +3 status)

I just want to jump in and say that Tumbling Lumber is not a bad impulse.

It's 2 actions, deals ok damage (2d8+d8/3), but has a large area of effect and doesn't have overflow trait. That means you can do it every round all day long, i.e. the equivalent of a cantrip.

At level 9, electric arc does 6d4 damage (average 15) to two targets. tumbling lumber deals 3d8 (average 13.5) to up to 12 targets. Plus it can push them back or knock them prone. It also removes natural difficult terrain.

Compare to other level 4 impulses:
Blazing Wave: A 30 ft. cone and does 4d6 damage, but it has overflow. Also fire is a common resistance.
Lava Leap: movement that deals 3d6 in a 10 foot emanation, but its a composite, has overflow and puts you next to your targets. Also it gets +1d6/3 levels, worse than Tumbling Lumber.
Lightning Dash: Pretty nice, 2d12 damage +d12/3 is the best damage yet and its a line and is a movement too. still it has the overflow trait.
Rain of Rust: good range 60ft, ok area 10ft burst, 3d6+d6/2 + persistent on a fail and clumsy 1. Downsides? Water Metal composite, overflow and 3 actions.
Whiling Grindstones: 3d6 fire damage, only 30 ft. range and single target but you can sustain it. It's a composite and it's increase +2d6/5!

Compared to the other damaging level 4 impulses, TL is on the lower end of damage, but has the second best area of affect, 4 of the other 5 have overflow and two are composites.

i don't really like your comparison Is that most of the impulses you bring up are weak too in my book:

And the other two are MUCH stronger but you don't consider them in context:
-lava leap Is 4 actions worth of stuff in two: stride that ignores difficult terrain, +2 circumstance AC, decent damage which It's only gonna use to proc the weakness anyway (plus deals bludgeoning damage too, which Is the best physical type in the game). Lava leap Is honestly the best composite impulse
-blazing wave: It does d8s, there's no One in this universe that's not gonna take pure Fire impulses without the impulse junction, It's basically Needed in this case.
Plus It has a much Better area and overall It's the best damage impulse It has.

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Haha, well spotted, sorry about that, I got carried away ^^

I'm not so sure about that, seeing how many people have fantasies about the last airbender.

I think it's weird that you mention avatar the last airbender because It kinda shows what i mean.

This Is a kind of "well but a lot of people like vancian spellcasting". The issue Is with the %of people.

I find Mono-Elements to be perfectly fine.

You pick the typical area dealing effect or save effect and a few tools from your chosen element, By staying in a single element you gain access to mono-element feats and can easily pick up more utility from the non-elemental kineticist feats.

Extended kinesis
Versatile blasts
Weapon infusion
Kinetic Activation
Safe Elements
Counter Element
Elemental overlap.

Its a tradeoff.
more elements = bigger toolbox.
single element = more specialisation.

You dont even need to bother about the composites as you can gain those trough Elemental overlap.

The problem here Is that this trade off doesn't really exist in practice, since you can "freely" take another element with fork the path and since there are a ton of levels where there's nothing worth to take your choice Is not "versatility or specialisation" but "Better vs worse" in a extremely mono-dimentional way.

Mono-element is a deliberate self-imposed restriction and build, rather than being something like a subclass. Like a lot of things in PF2, there are some tools to mitigate a popular build that would normally be flat-out worse. Dual Slice, Deific Weapon, etc.

At early levels, it's getting an extra junction. At mid-levels, it's a few exclusive feats and access to the composite impulses.

But PF2 doesn't exactly go out of its way to reward giving up your versatility. If you want to go with one of the six mono-element instead of the fifteen duals or twenty trios, then that's your call.

Single Gate and Dual Gate are a subclass choice of sorts, but the former can branch out later if the player wants.

And that's a problem. A core fantasy of playing an elemental wizard (yes, kineticists are essentially elemental wizard, no One really cares about Gates and stuff) Is that, as we can see in most media, you're defined by A SINGLE element which often reflects your personality.

YuriP wrote:

I also have this view that the different elements have strengths and weaknesses by design. For me, the kineticist idea is precisely that you can play with a single element for mechanical or thematic reasons and make the most of it, but will keep the obvious weaknesses of that element. Or divide itself into multiple elements seeking to benefit from the coverage over the weaknesses of each other at the cost of sacrificing junctions.

In case it was unclear or if anyone missed it, this is specifically confirmed by the developers that they did this, and did it on purpose. In the playtest after-action report, there's a chart towards the bottom showing how they designed the playtest impulses, though they said that wouldn't necessarily be how they showed up on the actual class.

I agree with this, i disagree with how they actually made the class.

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I'm fairly certain it was brought up before that each element's balance of overflow/stance/reaction/three-action impulses is entirely intentional to give each element a different feel and they aren't going to substantially change that when printing new ones. Wood has more stances and three actions and that's just how it is.

(Also, what do you mean lacking two action impulses? They have a damaging one at 1st level and another at 4th, and a healing one at 6th. Being able to pivot between defense and offense on their 2 actions is pretty good?)

To put it bluntly, those two impulses suck so they might as well not have them.

Also, what i'm saying It's that even if it's intentional it's a bad choice on their part, three action impulses (since they almost all require sustaining It) force a kineticist into a "sustain+non overflow Two actions impulse" which would be cool if the wood kineticist had more options than "lol let's spam Timber sentinel".
Timber sentinel it's egregious honestly, It might as well be the only reason wood Is as useful as It Is, a first level impulse cannot be the whole pivot of an element

I...kinda agree.
I think it's pretty easy for a player to come up with a combat rotation of just a few impulses, if that's the style they like to play. A wider range of combat impulses will mostly just support circumstantial uses. Some more composite impulses would be cool just thematically, but they aren't needed to make a combat-effective kineticist.

The problem Is that perfecting a combat rotation IS the correct way of playing a kineticist.

And some elements even lack those! Wood has ONE USEFUL TWO ACTION IMPULSE! (Timber sentinel), like, c'mon It's absurd!

Deriven Firelion wrote:

I'm talking stuff like making sure it is clear the Incap trait on solar detonation only applies to the blinding effect, not the entire impulse which just put in the incap trait on the whole spell.

Fair.

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Make the fascination condition better or more clear so that Wiles on the Wind is something you might want to use.

Fair.

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Make Infinite Expanse of The Blue Heaven a lot more usable. The way it reads, it seems mostly useless. Level 18 impulses should be highly useful and do something clearly amazing.

??

On a successful save, the target is off-guard until they leave the area. So they either have to just accept the AC reduction or spend actions moving.

On a failed save, they get the Fleeing condition. They can't attack any more. They have to Stride or otherwise move to leave the area ... except that they have to pass a 50% flat check to do that. They will end up wasting at least one action moving randomly to a likely less-than-ideal location and can waste an unbounded number of actions (probably no more than 4 or 5) trying and failing to leave the effect.

And people think the spell Slow is good...

The only problem that I see with it is that since it costs 3 actions, you can't combine it with Pacifying Infusion to exclude your allies from the effect.

Though it would probably be borderline OP if you could combine it with Pacifying Infusion. You could have your Reach weapon fighter (or other characters with good movement based reactions) in the area while all the enemies proc RS.

Some other team tactics that do still work are:
* Have your Rogue Sneak Attack them repeatedly while they are all off-guard.
* Have someone with a big AoE like a burst or 30 foot cone cover the area in damage. Preferably repeatedly with something like a sustained duration spell while they run around like headless chickens in there.

I do also have to question at least the phrasing on this:...

The problem of infinite expanse of the Blue Heaven Is that it doesn't do anything usefull on a success (no, making Someone off guard at level 18 it's not usefull, on a success casters can send a boss back to pathfinder First edition while kineticist HAS to Hope they fail a rigged throw)

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I'm not ignoring it. I think I said twice if not three times that the fire combo is ahead of other kineticist builds in terms of damage. But still, that requires enemies to be in your aura, so if you're counting 'in the middle' as a detraction from air kineticist, in fairness that criticism would apply to a fire kineticist using Aura Junction + Thermal Nimbus to boost their dpr too.

I'd Say that there's a difference in the sense that a Fire kineticist HAS to Plan a way to get in melee to do that combo, so it's not really a weakness since Fire IS a melee element all things considered.

Air, meanwhile, really Isn't as most if not all of It's utility and damage Better works in a ranged enviroment.

Also, i brought up the Fire combo because kineticist damage doesn't work in a vacuum, but i want to consider It in the context of the game.

Non Fire damage is normal while Fire combo damage Is absurd in the context of the class

Non Fire damage Is low/very Low while Fire combo damage Is High/top tier in the context of pf2e as a whole

Fabios wrote:

ALSO, not every element has that kind of damage: wood doesn't, metal gets It super late, earth's costs three actions if i'm not wrong.

You're wrong.

Hail of Splinters (wood): L1 2d4 -> L19 20d4, ave 50.
Magnetic Pinions (metal): L1 2d4 -> L19 20d4, ave 50
Retch Rust (metal): L8 4d10 -> L20 10d10, ave 55
Tremor (stone): L1 1d8 -> L19 10d8, ave 45

How about the 3a impulses?
Hell of Needles (metal) gets to 59.5 average,
Shattered Mountain (stone) gets to 55

How about the other elements?
Air's 2a overflow is Lightning Dash. It gets to 7d12, ave 45.5 at L19
Fire's Blazing wave tops out at 12d6 or 12d8 with the junction, ave 42 or 55.
Water's Tidal hands tops out at 45; the harder to use call the hurricane gets to 54.

Except for Fire's All Shall End in Flames - which is a total beast - all the elements 2a overflow damage blasts - and in fact most of the 3a overflows, too - top out between 45-55 points of damage at their highest boost.

The biggest differences are in AoE shape, damage types, and other 'special' attributes. This makes them all unique and definitely makes some better than others for specific circumstances. So for example, Metal's Pinion damage is immediate and easy to target, versus Wood's Splinters being a cone with half being bleed. Is one objectively better? Well if you want immediate down, of 3 or less enemies, Metal's got that. If you've got a nice cone-shaped group of lots of enemies, or you think bleed over 2+ rounds is going to be really helpful, that's Wood's forte.

Quote:

the only kineticists that can rely on damage are: early metal, Fire and late metal It's a weird halfway there

I disagree. Air's the slowest to get it's 2a overflow and it's d12 L+3 progression is not as smooth so there will be some levels when it's behind (it's 'make up bonus' is that it also moves the kineticist out of melee range in a way immune to reactive strike), but they can all do roughly similar damage numbers.

Hail of splinters'es damage comes from persistent bleed, very strong but easily resisted.

Magnetic peons targets AC, this makes It very weak in the Grand scheme of things (also, i did specify that early game metal and late game metal had decent damage).
Air's Is basically a suicide bomb cause you end up in the middle and you're ignoring that a Fire kineticist Main damage source Is not It's impulse damage dices but the weakness coupled with thermal Nimbus.
By using the best Fire rotation (which doesn't include all shall end in flame cause it's kinda crap, blazing wave and lava leap are much Better) almost HALF your Total damage comes from flat sources (weakness, thermal Nimbus and the persistent damage you get from flame Oracle archetype).

Also, you should aknowledge that doing 50 points of damage ON A FAIL at level 20 Is worthless most of the time, you're barely poking at their hp bars without also giving them debuffs (which Is fundamental to High level play, if you're not a magus It's a game of debuffs where hitpoints are almost a formality)

Yeah, for the most part I'm satisfied with the impulses available now (and I'm not sure why OP said earth has no defensive reactions when calcifying sand is there - sure, it's only one, but it's there and pretty good.) We've already gotten Wood impulses from Wardens of Wildwood though, so I expect we'll get more here and there as time goes on. I also think it'd be fun if we could get some kinetecist or element specific armor or shields or other gear options in a Treasure Vault 2.

To be honest calcifying Sand Is so bad i don't even consider It.

"Ohh, you can... Close your aura and block once per fight... Yay"

While I'm fully in support of more Kineticist impulses, and even in fact brand-new elements, I question how much those impulses would need to round out existing elements. If mono-element builds are so constrained that they're a lot weaker than multi-element builds in spite of the extra junctions they get, then sure, but I don't know if that's really the case now.

I'd also say that if current elements are meant to be good at something, but aren't, then that is a separate issue from them needing more things to do. If water is meant to be really good at healing and lacks good healing, for instance, then the solution oughtn't to be to make its current healing options obsolete with better impulses or let water do a bit of everything, but to buff the weak impulses accordingly so that a dedicated water Kineticist can be an excellent healer (and terrain controller). I do think each element offers enough to let a character specialize into a niche that is worthwhile in and of itself, so if that specialization isn't being rewarded enough, I'd like that addressed first before more stuff is layered on top.

I fully agree with both of you! In fact i wouldn't want for elements to be samey, but i'd like for them to be able to stand on their own.

Water Is not able to stand on It's own NOT because It needs an armor, but because it's niches (healing and control) are not strong enough to carry It. I mean, honestly, It's barely a healer :/

-lay on hands but worse ONCE
-three action heal once but worse ONCE
-small heal when you critically fail a save

It Just doesn't cut It, if It could spam It or have more powerfull options THEN It could stand on it's own

I'd like to see them get more impulses too. Heck not necessarily even combat impulses - some geared towards exploration mode, info collection/scrying, things like that would IMO be cool.

In terms of damage, you should look again. With the exception of the much-discussed 'fire combo', and the two L18 fire impulses, every element has a similar-damage impulse range: 2a, overflow, about 1d8 + 1d8/2 levels, with some sort of AoE, topping out at between 45-55 average damage at L19-20. This IS low compared to casters, because it equates to approximately what you'd get from casting a 'best rank -1' damage spell. Like it or hate it, that's what Paizo has decided is the 'cost' of all-day-blasting: to be 1 rank behind the casters in terms of damage-dealing. On the plus side, this means that (with the exception of the fire combo mentioned above), pretty much any kineticist build you want to explore will be able to blast out the same approximate damage by L4. So you don't need to worry overmuch about finding some damage-dealing easter egg build. With the kineticist, it's much more about "what damage types, spell shapes, ranges etc. do I want to access."

I'd be surprised if someone is still expanding the portal at L13 and 17, unless it's just for pure thematic reasons. By that time you've collected, what, about 11 impulse slots in one element? Sure you'll want to retrain some as higher impulses become available, but I'm guessing in terms of utility you don't really need more than that in any single element.

-Most people would expand the portal at level 13 to pick up metal ironically, cause its best impulses are all level 12 and above (shattershields, metal form and the 1 milion shards or something like that)

-About damage, those are utterly pityful numbers sadly, you're not doing max level -1 damage but approximately max level -3/4 damage depending on the damage Spike. ALSO, not every element has that kind of damage: wood doesn't, metal gets It super late, earth's costs three actions if i'm not wrong.
Btw, that Is a slow damage progression sadly, It's nice to have "some" damage for sure but the only kineticists that can rely on damage are: early metal, Fire and late metal It's a weird halfway there

What on Golarion makes you think te class needs to be good at everything? No other class works that way, so why should kineticist?

But yeah, new impulses would be great.

I also disagree that solo element kineticists can't stand on their own. I've played several such characters successfully and had a (elemental) blast.

More than being good at everything i think that elements should be capable of doing more on their own.

There are some elements that are barely unplayable as a mono element (water and air)

There are elements that are basically One trick ponies (wood)

There are others that can stand on their own but are much, MUCH weaker than they would be if a kineticist Simply took other elements (metal, Fire, earth)

The class STRONGLY encourages mixing elements, and it's cool, but i'd like the chance to be as effective as a mono element kineticist

It's my favorite class but In my opinion kineticist desperately needs new impulses.

The Main weirdness of the class Is that almost no element Is auto-sufficient; every element has INSANE tools but they're very few and can't complete a character on their own:

-Metal can do a bit of everything but not well
(low damage, low tankiness till level 14, the junctions are not that great, specializes againts a SPECIFIC kind of enemy) and this Is a problem in a class that's encouraged to take the best stuff from each element and mix-mash It.

-Water's healing capabilities are very mediocre (with the exception of having the universal vaccine to every disease for some reason with "torrent in the Blood"); It's debuff capabilities are very weak (useless againts single targets, weak againts lots of enemies cause they only have One target) and has decent damage (by kineticist's standard, by "the whole game" standard It's terrible)

-Earth has insane junctions, the best armor, the best composite impulses and One of them best impulses (free Wall of Stone!). But doesn't have any defensive reactions, lacks an aura for some weird reason and really needs wood to fill in the gaps.

-wood relies too much on Timber sentinel, without It the element goes from 4.5/5 to 2.5/5 stars; It has the best junction in the game but no way to use It (heavily lacks in the "good Two action impulses" department)

-Air Is REALLY weird, It has very good impulses but, like water, basically cannot function on It's own: no traditional buff/debuff, no damage, no tankiness, no Will to break, no mind to think, no trailer, no etinoh.

-Fire: suffers from It's own success, gets EVERY tool It needs (Flying flame, area and impulse junctions, Fire wave, blazing wave) in the first five levels and then doesn't get anything till level 12.

I'd like to see more impulses for everyone, especially auras.
Do you think that this Need to mix them Is a bug or a feature?

keftiu wrote:

guns being kind of bad mechanically unless you play The Gun Class feels like one of the most bizarre facets of PF1 to bring forward.

I think it may be a 'least worst' option.

Highly realistic guns would have everyone using them, which really causes the fantasy setting to suffer.

Highly realistic gun class would make the gunslinger superior to other martials. That also causes the setting to suffer.

So Paizo making guns sufficiently bad that the gunslinger with feats + gun combo is only 'on par' with a fantasy martial swinging a sword, is maybe the best choice available. It makes space for a gun-totin' PC, without making either the weapon or the class so powerful that they become the one and only optimized choice.

The problem Is that guns aren't as good as a martial swinging their sword, they're an awfully useless class of weapons that, in any other case, would be considered bad.

Fatal IS a trait that's basically only useful on fighters and to dpr calculators, and It works Better in both of those cases when you make a lot of strikes per turn

So! I despise gunslingers and now i'm gonna, respectfully, write why :3

1- The class doesn't have an identity

I believe that the gunslinger fundamentally doesn't have a mechanical idendity.

-it Isn't a crit fishing class: weirdly enough the +2 doesn't really make Crits something the gunslinger excels at:
-they're not common, sure It has the +2 of a fighter but a fighter also sets up his own buffs and with reactive strike It DOUBLES the already augmented chance of critting. The other crit fisher of the system, aka longbow flurry ranger, still has a higher chance of critting by pure virtue of striking a LOT.

It doesn't even benefit that much from crits, base damage Is quite low (even with fatal) so its crits are not worldbreaking (in fact, a gunslinger's crit Is worse than a starlit span's hit!) and neither do they apply great debuffs like a fighter can do (cause, let's be honest, the best thing about fighters Is that at High levels you basically cast "shut his PC off" with each crit)

This also ties In with, i think, a wrong pov the community has about gunslinger: "oh! He needs support, he really benefits from It" but... Who doesn't? If you give a ranger with a gun the same support he's gonna rock the same if not Better, everyone likes support! Gunslinger benefits a lot because it's much much WEAKER without It! So the difference Is more felt

-The class doesn't have a proper identity

I think that the class, other than cheesing encounters if there's a Cliff but that's something everyone with a gun can do, doesn't have a clear identity and that hurts its design tremendously.
Let's take barbarian as an example, no matter what you do, no matter how you build him, he's gonna be a chonky boy that hits hard. What's gunslinger's deal? Not crit fishing, not damage, not really support either (fake out doesn't count, like, sure it's broken af but It shouldn't be an auto pick for everyone); many people would Say it's action compression. But. BUT. What are you gaining from It? Likes guns have AWFULL action economy and so you fix It with your various reloads. You Haven't gained anything! The gunslinger, as a class, uses weapons that are purpousely made bad so he can fix them, it's a net nothing overall! Capitalism the class! (Create a problem and buy the solution)

The point of Companions is that you cannot think as they have been a fully independent creature but as an improved 3rd action for your character. For example.

A character with Cavalier Archetype and Impressive Mount feat can use the horse to move at 40ft for “free” or 80ft using only one action to command the companion to move without risk to trigger a move reaction (who will trigger the reaction will be the horse) besides other uses.

A LVL 1 Precision Ranger using a two-handed d12 weapon with a bear companion could flank and make 2 strikes vs a hunted target, one of them MAPless, doing 1d12+STR+1d8(precision) and another with MAP-5 doing 1d12+STR while makes the bear to strike using jaws doing 1d8+3(STR)+1d8(precision) and a MAP-4 Strike with claw doing 1d6+3(STR) allowing this character having 2 more strikes with a bit weaker damage in place of its 3rd action.

IMO, these are very good improvements for a 3rd action. I'm not saying that wort nor that they are cheap due to the feats tax along the progression, but it has a point.

The problem with this Is that they scale so badly that they're not even an improved third action anymore, from level 10 and onwards they're strictly a WORSE third action

If they only cost a single class feat to get and keep up with, even if they're not great I think that might acceptable trade off.

I agree with this, since they're so... Bad i always either see them on casters (aka: carry me through level One and Two mahoraga) or on characters with free archetype (therefore they can Just disregard the feat taxi).

You either let them be Better or let them be cheaper, cause right now only casters can use them without feeling like a trap option (and that's only because some casters feats kinda suck and Simply adding hps up front Is usefull)

I think the best companion Is actually the construct, by mere virtue of being super cheap to heal and replace that you basically have a kamikaze that Just dies every fight and spams trips

This Is my personal argument on why companions are lame/bad.

So! First, definition: animal, construct, undead companions.

Second, argument: companions, in my opinion, are inherently flawed and contraddict aspecta of pf2e's interior design:

1- they require a massive feat taxi which offers almost purely vertical growth, to have your companion you MUST spend at least 4 feats which all give your companion REQUIRED numerical growth, aka:
-feat tax
-feat chain
-vertical growth
And those are all things that pathfinder 2e specifically tries to avoid mixed up!

2- they're lame as hell, companions have practically no customization, with construct literally having none at all, and every item Is utterly useless; if you wanna focus on your companion there's literally nothing you can do (Napoleon meme), they're Stuck with being the same from level 1 to level 20

3- they scale horribly, this Is caused by Two things.

1- the gaps between feats are too big, companions generally start to really suffer from level 11-13 and from level 17-20 because their scaling Is tied to feats! And there aren't any to cover those specific levels!

2- their numbers are Simply too low, look, i understand that their only utility Is being a meatshield and grappling but It comes to a point where the player's map actions are Better than the companion's non map actions!

Trip.H wrote:

RPG-Geek wrote:

... In PF2, there aren't any unavoidable attacks. Even your example gave you a 40% chance, with a reroll to avoid the effect of Belcorra's Feeblemind spell. ...

Dude... an RNG outcome is not player agency, how is this something that needs to be explained. Rolling the RNG generator has 0 choice involved, it's not agency. Holy crap I didn't expect to get this far in with that kind of misconception being present. Rolling a save is a cutscene that the player is forced to advance, there's 0 agency involved.

That's the trade-off for using dice rather than having to physically perform the actions of your character or using some other skill-based method of action resolution. It's inherent to the design of any game that uses dice, cards, or other pseudorandom means to generate a range of outcomes.

Quote:

If the PC has 0 hero points, the idea that it is *literally* possible for Belcora to go first, and then use Feeblemind to end a PC with 0 decisions/variable actions taken by the PC, is completely nuts.

(and the existence of such spells itself changes the meaning of hero points, which then need to be saved due to being the one single lifeline against such instant, unavoidable death)

"If a person is just sitting in their living room, the idea that it is *literally* possible for them to get hit by a stray bullet without any warning or time to react is completely nuts." (and the existence of such events itself changes the meaning of being comfortable in one's own home. In some cases, one might feel compelled to design their home to be bullet-resistant or wear a bullet-resistant vest to feel safe. This is clearly unacceptable and an example of poor design.)

Do you see how wrong it sounds when you apply your ideas of what make a good game to real life? If we want to simulate risk and chaos with dice, we have to accept that certain undesirable outcomes are and should be possible. The further we stray from the idea that, as unlikely as it may be, bad...

Are you unironically bringing up real Life in this? I Hope you're being ironical cause no One in the history of ever has ever wanted true realism in games, games are literally the opposite of realism conceptually and philosophically.

Claxon wrote:

You ever play Dynasty Warriors? Where you're one person killing hundreds and sometimes thousands of enemies? That's my jam.

Yeah, they're terminally boring to me. If I want to bash buttons, at least give me a Bayonetta or DMC where there's a challenge in getting good combo scores.

I mostly play BattleTech 2018 modded to the gills with an ultrahard difficulty mod, and I'll still go into battles 10 difficulty ratings (in a rating system out of 40) higher than me and walk out untouched.

Quote:

Can I play a super tactical game where I'm thinking through every decision and making the "best" decision with the knowledge I have? I mean probably, but that's not what I want to put into the game, and it's not fun for me to put in that amount of work.

I don't get this mindset at all. If you don't need to sweat at least a little, where's the fun in overcoming challenges coming from?

If i wanted to overcome a challenge i would either go play professional football or get down and prepare for my wittgenstein exam for my philosophy Major. Y'know, things that actually would be useful. I wanna play a roleplaying game where i'm not Stuck in my boring cog in the machine world, ever Heard of escapism?

Fabios wrote:

Fabula ultima, call of chtulu, not the end, the last Torch, Kids and bikes, dungeon and dragons 4th edition

I can list systems, too, but doing so doesn't make them objectively better.

Each One of those system Is modern, a great winner in its own niche and has a much Better game design (cause It follows ACTUAL game design, not copying a dumbass in his basement winging It).

Oh, add lancer, 20 times the complexity and build variety of pathfinder

Fabios wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

This is not some lazy isikai anime in which the party is overpowered and invincible right out of the gate. This is a tabletop roleplaying game, possibly the finest there has ever been. To insinuate that the math is badwrongfun is an insult to the developers that spent countless hours getting the math exactly right for the type of game they wanted.

This isn't about game design, but about heehawing one's personal preferences as the only correct way. Anyone who reads this thread and says otherwise are the ones being disingenuous.

"The finest there has ever been"

LOOOOL! pathfinder 2e Is the best d20 ttrpg ever that's for sure, but It's soooo far from the best ttrpg ever, It's actually exilerating that a system so convoluted and messy can be defined as the "finest"

Name something *objectively* better. Not subjectively, not your opinion, objectively better.

Fabula ultima, call of chtulu, not the end, the last Torch, Kids and bikes, dungeon and dragons 4th edition

This is the "better game" to me, so I'm sorry for having the wrong fun, I guess?...

Again, with all due respect and without being mean, yeah you're kinda wrong.

There Is One such things as personal preferences (which are sacred and i cannot argue againts them) and game design (which can be treated as an academic subject), and here we are talking about game design, not personal preferences.

Like, i know this metaphor might sound stupid but It's the best i can come up with: i'd rather read furry smut all day long than reading the kharamazovs Brothers, and those are my personal preferences, but i would never, in a discussion that tries to be objective as much as a discussion can be, Say that an ao3 monster hunter world's smut fic Is Better than One of the greatest novels to ever be written

Personally I agree with Deriven on this, there's no real issue with these numbers. It makes the early levels "more deadly" because honestly, why wouldn't they be? You're new to adventuring, or at the very least out of practice and likely to take a beating in all out combat.

This kind of reasoning Is, and i don't mean to sound unkind, genuinely the reason the ttrpgs space hasn't evolved much in all these years: you're applying narrative "common sense" reason while we should all apply ludo-narrative academic reason in such situations.

The main purpouse of EVERY SINGLE GAME EVER Is to be fun, not to be realistic, not to be accurate, but fun, this Is the reason there's not a secret roll to see if you're gonna die from a stroke all of a sudden, It's the reason that shooters gun don't work like in real Life.

If we Want to create Better games we should completely ignore common sense and focus on academic game design

Ravingdork wrote:

I'm not convinced the underlying math at low levels is problematic. I suspect that perception stems far more from the imbalances found in some of the earlier adventure path modules, which are known to have been calibrated poorly as the rules were still being written at the time.

The lack of an HP buffer combined with the most rapid period of numerical scaling in the game objectively make combats against higher level enemies more lethal. You are correct that the early modules are balanced poorly, but part of that is just that the encounter-building guidelines are not functional at low level. A single APL+2 enemy feels more like a severe (or rarely extreme) threat at those levels. APL+3 is a nightmare.

I also, personally, think the encounter-building guidelines have a hard time hitting "engaging, but not lethal" at low levels. My experience is that there's barely any daylight between "snoozefest" and "people are getting crit to the ground frequently" if you follow the encounter builder, especially with the lack of APL-3 or APL-4 enemies to fluff out encounters.

Low level encounters fail to hit that sweetspot specifically for the math problems that game has at that level range.

Fabios wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

I don't really like this analogy because between the two only one of them is a proactive way to engage with the enemies in combat. So it's not really like running out of arrows at all. It's more like a character with Reactive Strike having a fight where characters don't provoke very often.

i don't think something being proactive Is inherently Better than something being reactive

That's not the point, the point is that people are expected to make more proactive than reactive actions and the distribution of actions, accessibility of consumables etc. reflect that. Shield Block is reactive, hence it is balanced around doing its thing less frequently.

My point Is that It doesn't really make sense since champion Is an inherently reactive class.

Tridus wrote:

To be fair: if your character is built around shield blocking, running out of shield block can feel lousy. It's like playing an archer and running out of arrows except its much easier to carry piles of arrows.

I don't really like this analogy because between the two only one of them is a proactive way to engage with the enemies in combat. So it's not really like running out of arrows at all. It's more like a character with Reactive Strike having a fight where characters don't provoke very often.

i don't think something being proactive Is inherently Better than something being reactive

Fabios wrote:

...on par with a sturdy of the appropriate level (which Is basically the bare minimum for ANY shield really).

When you're looking at what the team designing the game have decided is the absolute best-in-class benefit for something as being "basically the bare minimum" the issue is one of personal perception, not the actual function of the game elements.

You're basically setting yourself up for disappointment by default by having tricked yourself into thinking a massive bonus a character can get is actually something that only gets you to the baseline so anything less is "subpar" even though that's not really true.

In my experience this kind of skewed perception is a common byproduct of people that are trying to play the game with high-difficulty challenges yet have overlooked the effect of the arms race aspect of that proposition so instead of the challenges being set to a difficulty and kept there even if the players make choices that will help them overcome that difficulty the challenges are being set up to be particularly hard even after making the useful choices - resulting in the false appearance that if the characters weren't built so strongly they would fail and die, when the actual case is that the GM just doesn't need to actually push the difficulty to that point in the first place for players to feel reasonably challenged. And if they did do that, the players might not come away from the experience so sure that if they don't have sturdy shield levels of shield blocking they are missing something important.

The point that you May not understand Is that in a game such as pathfinder 2e since, mathematically wise, your power level Is STRICTLY controlled by level progression (unlike previous editions) when we speak about numbers the best you can get Is usually (and in case It Is) the literal bare minimum. Are you saying that a shield lasting three shield blocks when i can do It twice per turn on myself or an ally Is "the best there Is and actually super strong" hell no It Isn't. This Is the same reason why everyone only used sturdy shields pre-remastered, everything was too frail to ever be useful otherwise and same thing applies here, every shield that doesn't match a sturdy IS too frail to do anything and i have, thanks to the guy above, the math to prove It.

I wouldn't care about all of this if i played in a homebrew game with an expert game Master, but since both of those things aren't true (playing extinction curse with a new GM) i have to punch above my Weight since paizo's writers can't for the Life of them design a normal AP, cherry on top we also have a newish player that decided to play a summoner and, with all due respect for him since he's new, doesn't have any idea on how to play One, i'd rather play the most boring and optimized champion that has no tiè to its backstory mechanically wise than have a new player cycle through characters because "single +2/3 enemy" Is the only thing that paizo published until 2022. (Btw, i'm not english so i don't know if i sound mean or anything, i don't know how to exactly moderate my tone when i write in english)

If you're curious about how i came to this conclusion i Simply followed the lessons that abomination vault taught me

Also shields rarely broken unless you frequently try to block critical damages with them (what usually doesn't worth unless is to avoid to become immediately unconscious). So if you repair your shield between every battle (just need some minutes specially if you have Quick Repair) you probably will have your shield ready to be used. Also once that Shield Ally allows to turn every shield almost like a Sturdy Shield you can simply swap your shields.

On most level, a fella here did the calculations above, shields break with four non-crit hits. Four shield blocks, for a Quick shield block champion that's ideally two turns

Folks, what i meant by what i said before Is that the "highest reinforcing rune for your level" doesn't Bring a steel shield on par with a sturdy of the appropriate level (which Is basically the bare minimum for ANY shield really).

It means that, practically, now you're not really saving that much cash, Just buying useless specific magic shields (there are literally THREE good ones ability wise: spellbound, clockwork, indestructible) because otherwise a normal steel shield with your blessing Will not be worth Two pennies if you're above level 7

Fabios wrote:

Because It doesn't really do that, since It gives you ONLY the rune appropriate for the level your shield won't have the maxed out stats. You Need lower level runes anyway (this Is how It's written, i Hope i'm wrong)

I'm not perfectly fluent in all the rules, so someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but reinforcing runes are fundamental runes and those simply get replaced/upgraded as they increase, you don't put previous runes on. Unless reinforcing runes are different in some way that I'm unaware of.

That Is, i think, the problem. You're still required to buy shield because the rune on its own doesn't get you a shield as strong as a sturdy One (aka, the bare minimum).

Fabios wrote:

Tactical Drongo wrote:

[

while I have also mixed feelings towards the new shield ally, this looks a loot like whiteroom mathematics
I doubt that even half the players get the chance for two shieldblocks per turn
and the extra hardness, while not much, still is useful, pathfinder is famour for a single point making a difference
also you seem to assume that every player blocks every strike at the maximum damage, while there are players out there who pace their shield blocks for critical moments and against strikes that do little to no damage against the shield

then again, with your last answer it feels also like your opinion is set in stone and you are going to ignore most, if not all, of the arguments presented here

-"oh but you'll have more shields to choose from" problem Is most shields are terrible, spellbound Is decent only for a while and then requires me to spend on reinforcing runes to keep It up since shield blessing only gives the appropriate level runes, which doesn't max out my shield, same thing for fortress and clockwork.

I'm somewhat confused by this statement, why would you need to spend on runes when it's already giving you runes of the appropriate level? Unless you mean to get the +1 Hardness bonus for already having the highest rune?

Because It doesn't really do that, since It gives you ONLY the rune appropriate for the level your shield won't have the maxed out stats. You Need lower level runes anyway (this Is how It's written, i Hope i'm wrong)

Fabios wrote:

WatersLethe wrote:

I like it just fine. You get reliable access to a shield that you can use for blocking, no matter what loot drops or what shops or crafting are available. That extra point of hardness on an already Sturdy shield is gravy.

Also, blocking three strikes in a battle covers most battles, no? Not only is that a decent amount of damage mitigated, you also have your main class feature competing for the same reaction resource.

Anyway, looks like a matter of taste to me.

In my opinion It really doesn't, a champion with shield of reckoning and reactive shield should AT LEAST use two shields blocks every turn, and if you're not using viking's second shield then you're not gonna last more than three rounds.

Also, +1 hardness Is... Pathetically useless, with all due respect It could've been taken out completely

I guess the value of that hardness increase depends on the damage your taking at each level and how many hits till it breaks and finally how much damage mitigation do you need based on your HP at that level.

Take the high damage average from the GM Core strike damage table for comparison.
I put level - high average damage - shield Hardness - shield BT - # attacks till break against high average damage (BT/ (Creature high average damage-hardness)) - PC HP - damage reduced by shield if used till it breaks against high average damage.
Shield stats include Shield ally and sturdy shield for the level. PC HP is champ human with +2 starting Con to +3 at level 5 +4 at level 10 and toughness taken at level 3.
-1 - 03 - 05 - 10 - NoBr - 020 - NA no shield ally yet
00 - 05 - 05 - 10 - NoBr - 020 - NA no shield ally yet
01 - 06 - 05 - 10 - 10.0 - 020 - 50 no shield ally yet
02 - 09 - 05 - 10 - 02.5 - 032 - 15 no shield ally yet
03 - 12 - 08 - 32 - 08.0 - 047 - 64 regular steel with shield ally
04 - 14 - 09 - 32 - 06.4 - 060 - 63 sturdy (minor)
05 - 16 - 09 - 32 - 04.5 - 078 - 45 sturdy (minor)
06 - 18 - 09 - 32...

Seen these calculations, would you agree with me that shields break excedingly fast especially at higher levels? Isn't It absurd that my shield can barely last Two turns if i actually use It?

[

while I have also mixed feelings towards the new shield ally, this looks a loot like whiteroom mathematics
I doubt that even half the players get the chance for two shieldblocks per turn
and the extra hardness, while not much, still is useful, pathfinder is famour for a single point making a difference
also you seem to assume that every player blocks every strike at the maximum damage, while there are players out there who pace their shield blocks for critical moments and against strikes that do little to no damage against the shield

then again, with your last answer it feels also like your opinion is set in stone and you are going to ignore most, if not all, of the arguments presented here

My opinion Isn't really set in Stone for magical reasons, my opinion Is based on arguments that Haven't been really addressed not by your nor anyone.

-"oh but you'll have more shields to choose from" problem Is most shields are terrible, spellbound Is decent only for a while and then requires me to spend on reinforcing runes to keep It up since shield blessing only gives the appropriate level runes, which doesn't max out my shield, same thing for fortress and clockwork.

-"oh but you'll save so much Money" which you Will not, because since you're forced to have backup shields you'll have to put lower level reinforcing runes on them because Just the shield blessing doesn't automatically maximize them.

-"you'll never shield block twice per turn that's absurd" reflexive shield+shield of reckoning. The most BASIC thing every shield champions gets and that lets you do that twice per turn, you can't Just ignore that.

-"oh but every +1 Number counts" It doesn't. A +1 to hit Is a +5/10% damage based on the Attack roll not a flat +1, every flat +1 Is basically useless and you can't compare them, especially since that +1 Will cost you loads of golds (which, AGAIN destroys the purpouse of the shield ally change)

-"why should you block every strike, you should use them on less damaging strikes" while it's common knowledge that you don't shield block crite you can't fix a weak shield by using It less, because less blocks you use more damage you take and since your whole usefullness as a class Is defined by damage mitigation you're gonna significantly weaker.

I don't have my mind set in Stone for dumb reasons, but for some debateable ones

I like it just fine. You get reliable access to a shield that you can use for blocking, no matter what loot drops or what shops or crafting are available. That extra point of hardness on an already Sturdy shield is gravy.

Also, blocking three strikes in a battle covers most battles, no? Not only is that a decent amount of damage mitigated, you also have your main class feature competing for the same reaction resource.

Anyway, looks like a matter of taste to me.

In my opinion It really doesn't, a champion with shield of reckoning and reactive shield should AT LEAST use two shields blocks every turn, and if you're not using viking's second shield then you're not gonna last more than three rounds.

Also, +1 hardness Is... Pathetically useless, with all due respect It could've been taken out completely

I don't think that "It's cheap" Is a great class design, like, if i want to be a shield guy i wanna spend on a shield.

Also labbing out the shield hps i kinda realized that without that boost they're pathetically low, like, i'm THE shield guy and i can barely block three strikes.

Thirdly you also cannot "cheese" this problem with the viking archetype, rule wise second shield doesn't work as you Need to prepare the blessing in a specific shield.

ALSO you don't even save cash! If you do the math the previous thing made lower tier runes Better than current ones (example: a level 4 sturdy shield with shield ally Is Better than current level 10 sturdy shield!)

Fabios wrote:

-i get no progression, It gets boring when you basically gain NOTHING of value inbetween level 1 and 7 (1 to 6 feats suck and everything you Need Is already given at level 1)

Blessed, a couple 'bonus to save' feats, auras, expansion of auras, a full reactive strike if you don't like how your champion's reaction is working. It seems like a pretty solid set of options to me.

Quote:

i wanna be a tank and play Someone big with a shield but now shield Champions get basically nothing for being shield Champions (worst remastered change ever, if i wanna play something i Will be able to spend Gold for It)

They get several abilities that buff the use of their shield - making it tougher and blocking more useful or buffing shields of the spirit.

But as someone else mentioned, there is no equivalent of 'aggro' in this TTRPG. Enemies can choose to attack whom the GM wants them to attack, and you have to use tactics (i.e. get in their way, with a reaction, or have your other party members move to unattackable positions) to prevent them from attacking other targets.

***

If you are looking for aggro specifically, then the upcoming Guardian may be something you should look into. While it got mixed reviews on these fora during the playtest, it seems pretty clear Paizo was at least trying to give that class an "attack me not them, or suffer bad consequences" vibe.

I really dislike the Guardian, i regard Its whole class as the result of an hangover.

Tho, on the main point: the aura i could get reduces frightened, which Is usefull when it's usefull but also insanely situational, Attack of opportunity and bonus to saves are also (sadly) reactions! Which adds more "should i shield block or champion reactions" tò my problems. Like, nothing really "adds" tò my character, they give some situational stuff which Is cool but meh.

I'd like to thank you all foi r the partecipation, i'm tempted to play a champion for a following game but everytime i think about It i see nothing but problems.

-i get no progression, It gets boring when you basically gain NOTHING of value inbetween level 1 and 7 (1 to 6 feats suck and everything you Need Is already given at level 1)

-i wanna be a tank and play Someone big with a shield but now shield Champions get basically nothing for being shield Champions (worst remastered change ever, if i wanna play something i Will be able to spend Gold for It)

I think the main problem is that the OP thinks of 'Tanks' in mmo turns and not in tabletop terms

being able to get hit by all the enemies in an encounter standing upright, mitigating damage and forcing them to 'waste' their action on the character while the healer pumps lifepoints into them

I'd disagree that there Is any fundamental difference in concept inbetween a mmo tank and a ttrpg tank.

A tank has to do Two things:
-take aggro
-being able to resist damage After taking up aggro.

How would you define a tank otherwise? Cause every glass cannon can take aggro quite easily

I think the Champion can hold its own on lower levels as well, and don't follow the "low value" proposition at all.

Especially the new Defensive Advance makes it quite efficient to play a classic redeemer with a shield.

The +2 AC makes quite a difference, and shield block is about 25% of total hp at first level, every turn.
The damage reduction quickly stacks up as well, and enfeebled 2 on a boss is something that makes casters envious for quite some time.

With Lay on Hands being a really strong focus spell, and deities domain giving you a second focus point and other options (ranged spell attack, or athletic rush or...) the package is quite good.

Of course sword+board is not the only viable playstyle.
Its a bit sad that the "evil" edicts are mostly bad, but that's kind of another discussion.

Imo the sword and board has been nerfed when they Uber nerfed the shield divine blessing/ally

To Captain Morgan (i feel cool, it'e like a debate on a journal or something, i get to put a title).

-i am ignoring everything the champion has because i am looking at lower levels and that's kinda the whole thing we're talking about y'know? Shieldblock Isn't that great because your shield breaks easily and it's your only line of defense, lay on hands Is also pretty risky as It usually triggers reaction, while i agree It's godly i also don't think that It's worth as much as the barbarians hps out of being tied to a punishable action. While yes i'd Absolutely agree than you can have two focus points and in that case It Is a very strong, basically a top spellslot self heal every fight.
I'd Say that the biggest problem i've seen Is that champions practically lack strong level 2/4 feats as oaths are situational and mercy Isn't all of that.
Also, i'm not ignoring shields, but everyone can use One equally as well until level 8, and now that blessed shield has been Uber nerfed Champions aren't really THE shield masters anymore

TheNobleDrake.

I disagree that only disincentivizing enemies from attacking your allies makes a tank, cause otherwise you could take a glass cannon and enemies would be naturally drawn to attacking them. A tank not only has to attract blows, but also resist them

To BigHatMarisa;

-blessed shield has been nerfed into the ground for no particular reason, now It only gives you a reinforcing rune appropriate for your level, therefore the champion Isn't really Better at using a shield than anyone until shield of reckoning comes in play at level 10.
I also highly disagree that as a champion you can forgo strokes as they're are your main tool of pressure, your defenses aren't nearly as strong to the point that they can genuinely stall an enemy, as a martial you HAVE to contribute to damage otherwise you're doing an enormous disservice to your Party by drowing out the fight.

to Firelion.
-i disagree, a champion's reaction Is a mean to an end, to tank.
It Is made to discourage enemies from targetting your High value Friends and target the low value champion and force a lose/lose situation, you can notice that there Isn't really a lose/lose situation in lower levels: if the enemy chooses to target you then since you're Just as tanky as any good frontline (less than a barbarian that has 33% more hps and a monk with Drakeheart), sure you can argue that they're losing by not targetting an High value damage dealer, but at that point you could've just played an High value character and contribute much more (champion Is an insanely good class but doesn't really get to work until midgame when they get their feats and their reaction catches up to the damage scaling).
It's "working fine" because martials are overtuned until level five, but conceptually It doesn't really work.

To captain Morgan
-the reason that barbarians are much tankier than champions at lower levels Is understood by talking about how AC doesn't have Linear scaling while hps do.
Barbarians have 35% or so more hps than Champions and that contributes a lot in lower levels, where their AC only differs by 1 point and where most attacks Two/three shot you, +1 AC Is about -10% damage taken overall, but that -10% damage taken Is only appliable if you get hit thousands and thousands of times (also, for every enemy that hits on Eleven+ that +1 Is only a -5% damage taken) and that Simply Isn't going to happen, that +1 could mean everything or nothing and it's all down to an enormous level of luck.
Barbarians? Oh yeah they can get hit One more time before they go down, it's a fixed value that's highly preferrable to a mere -10% damage taken that May or May not exist.

Monks, meanwhile, can Just cheese with drakeheart mutageni lol