Fabios's page

Can Someone help me find a rule-wise justification? Cause i'm not gonna play a magus if he'll be gutted because the GM giving a very peculiar interpretation of the rules

When an ability states that the GM makes a decision for something pertaining to a player, that is generally stated outright. Given that it's the player who makes the decisions regarding the animal companion, there's no reason here why the GM would decide what the companion would do.

But also, let's just humor this: suppose the GM were in fact to control your animal companion on your turn, deciding when they use their action and what to do with it. How is the GM going to make your companion behave? Because if they make that companion act wildly out of character by wasting their action and doing stuff you really didn't want your animal to do -- and also preventing you from Commanding your companion in the first place -- then that's just antagonistic GMing. By contrast, if your GM wants to roleplay your companion properly, they'll probably want your companion to have a strong bond with your character and a good enough instinct to know when and how to act -- which would inevitably mean deferring to you on how your companion would act based on your battle plan for the turn. Thus, all valid roads here lead to the player, not the GM, deciding how the animal companion acts.

This Is the exact same thing i Said to them! Aka "if this worked the way you wanted to it'll literally be a useless trap feat, especially for mounts" and they replied using the "well, It works like this for familiars" where It's specified in that case

Basically the title, a friend of mine says that the GM chooses what the companion does, that makes the feat completely unfunctional, Is that true?

So we're talking about Shield Block soaking up damage. How much damage should a shield absorb, keeping in mind its Hardness? If Raising a Shield is already valuable, how many hit points should Shield Block help on top of that? It's a cheap feat that comes w/ several classes so that alone doesn't warrant too many hit points (we're talking comparable to Toughness). And the costs mentioned above seem balanced vs. the +2 AC alone, so then there's spending one's Reaction. The price of a Reaction is hard to measure vs. say an at-level False Vitality (whose...

The cost Is the exorbitant amount of Gold you're forced to spend.

Like, i don't understand what you're trying to Say, using shields It's not cheap, hell, to keep up you Need at least TWO fully upgraded shields and that only lasts for a fairly short fight.
I have a character based around shield usage and other than carrying multiple shields (shield runes where, overall, quite useless. Except three shields i've Always used and Always Will use sturdy ones) i've also planned to take second shield, but gave up on It since the Viking archetype would be otherwise useless

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Please remember that kineticists are infinite impulse users - the non-overflow impulses can't be better than e.g. Slam Down on fighters because they have the exact same cost as Slam Down aka a feat and nothing else.

So yes, they will only get good effects on save fails because that's how those kinds of actions are costed and spells (especially the overtuned spells like slow) are going to be better at the non-scaling parts of their kit. That's balance!

I wholeheartedly disagree.

They should be Better because they have a bigger cost than slam down; kineticists do not have basic actions that are worthwhile pursuing (maneuvers, strikes) therefore their spells, aka feats, have a relative higher build cost.

Secondly, that's not balance, that's a misunderstanding of the average adventuring day.
Theoretically It sounds Fair, "if you can cast It every turn then you only get something on a fail, if you have limitations you get something on a save too" but this ignores the complexities of the actual game:

-versatility: kineticist can only target AC (and they can't even do It properly cause those impulses are mostly crap, plus they're not able to use archetype spells to fix that) and reflex; casters can competently target every save. Casters also have a MUUUCH larger selection of good spells that are able to cover every situation, kineticists have at most 17 impulses which they can't swap and are mostly damage.

-actual resource management: Casters do not end up without spells at the end of the day from level 9 and above, cases of 5/6 severe encounters a day are a baffling proposition. Kineticist can have an actual mmo rotation, but that's more of an ease of play thing not an actual advantage.

-"and the target Is immune for ten minutes": most impulses that actually have a worthwhile effect not only have It only on a failed save but also have this dumbass thing that you can only use It once per fight on a target, making them practically useless againts a boss (like EVERYTHING in the kineticist kit except grappling) and weak againts multiple enemies. The "infinite spam every turn" doesn't even work in this case! They become like casters but with less spellslots and without an effect on a save (aka, the only reason casters are able to function againts non pl-2 enemies).

I don't mean to sound harsh but that's not balance, that's being incompetent and ONLY playtesting your stuff in those dumb "moderate with tons of enemies" encounters that somehow paizo thinks are a good rappresentation of the game.

Point blank: I'm highly skeptical you will see 'this one gets better damage in exchange for not doing anything else' impulses being released officially, ever.

I wouldn't really mind that, cool effects ARE fun to play with (heck, fighter's whole deal It's applying s$#% through hitting people) BUUT they also have to be worth applying.

On a second note, i think that paizo really has to give kineticist a way to get decent effects on a successful save cause that's the way It works for every other caster, and they can target weak save, a kineticist cannot.

You turn to lightning and zip through your enemies with really good damage, what is "weird"? Also by saying it's weird, you can dismiss it out of hand without engaging in a substantive argument.

I agree lava leap is good, but it also has its drawbacks. It's damage is on the low end of all of these and now you are stuck next to the enemy. Also it triggers reactions, whereas lightning dash doesn't.

You literally just said that forking the path is always better, that means you are much less likely to get the impulse junction than a mono-element. Also this is just damage. Everything else gives you something extra and damage.

1- you're right, "weird" doesn't really cut It, i'll be more specific: It's a counter intuitive design, air Is not a melee focused element like Fire or Earth are, so an impulse that goes "get in melee man" IS kinda weird in my books. It's Indeed pretty strong if you also take Earth and do the whole air boomerang juggle.

2- Lava leap's low damage doesn't really count since Fire's overall dps (until you get to level 20 and have the Two level 18's impulses) mostly relies on triggering weakness Two times per round, lava leap It's strong because:
-it partially fixes kineticist's AWFULL action economy, putting It on par with a normal martial.
-gives the kineticist a bit of survivability so that It can go melee without being nuclearized instantly.
PS: in case you wounder, since Fire/Earth Is a melee focused combination i don't think it's weird that It puts you near the enemy, It IS what you want to do.

3- i'm hyperbolic, in this case i was factually wrong, to be more precise; forking the path It's almost Always worth, the exceptions are: Fire aura/impulse junction, air impulse junction, earth aura/skill junction, wood impulse junction; in every other case, except if you wanna deliberately be a worst character, It's Better to fork the path

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Bluntly speaking you seem to hugely value damage over, like... everything else, you primary complaint is always damage and heightened damage of impulses. And... yeah, if you always are looking for top damage, run Fire, that's the point? The other elements aren't supposed to compete with fire impulses on damage! If you play a wood kineticist, just, like, make your trees* (making trees can involve healing, walls, difficult terrain...)

I do value damage in this case because it's a good 70% of what the impulse has to offer.

I'm not gonna complain that slow doesn't do damage cause it's slow, hell It might as well One of the best spells in the game if scaled to It's size.
But we're talking about impulses where the secondary effect Is "push them 5 feets" or "give +1 status to hit to electricity attacks" which basically boils down to "slight inconvenience", In that case HECK YEAH i'm gonna expect those impulses to have good damage, of i'm not here for the effect i'm here for the damage.

There are cases in which this doesn't apply and i'm content with them: Timber sentinel It's already broken ad It Is, the various Wall impulses don't Need to do damage heck they can basically cheese any non Flying creature, Ravel of thorns'es damage Is a cool plus but obviusly not the Main point! That's a good balance of damage and effect, log bait (badumptss, Clash royal pun) Isn't.

Ryangwy wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

I'm not complaining about the elemental blast damage. It's a little low IMO and could use more enhancement through the gate attenuator but as you stated it's a third action.

Basically, you want some higher level two or three action single target impulses similar to e.g. Execute?

I do see the appeal, though given the constantly available nature of impulses I also can see the worry that it'd end up like Starlight Span, where the best thing to do is get in range and just keep blasting. AoEs generally require some amount of movement and rethinking to keep extracting maximum value out of them, at least.

Yep. More tools for different jobs. Even more debuff, attack single target would probably help. You don't want to be dropping solar detonation or ignite the sun on a single target. It seems like overkill and is unwieldy.

It's also a problem since kineticist can effectively only target reflex saves. Martials can mostly only target AC but that's accounted for with the fact that their buffs range from a +2 (offguard) to +5 (off guard and +3 status)

I just want to jump in and say that Tumbling Lumber is not a bad impulse.

It's 2 actions, deals ok damage (2d8+d8/3), but has a large area of effect and doesn't have overflow trait. That means you can do it every round all day long, i.e. the equivalent of a cantrip.

At level 9, electric arc does 6d4 damage (average 15) to two targets. tumbling lumber deals 3d8 (average 13.5) to up to 12 targets. Plus it can push them back or knock them prone. It also removes natural difficult terrain.

Compare to other level 4 impulses:
Blazing Wave: A 30 ft. cone and does 4d6 damage, but it has overflow. Also fire is a common resistance.
Lava Leap: movement that deals 3d6 in a 10 foot emanation, but its a composite, has overflow and puts you next to your targets. Also it gets +1d6/3 levels, worse than Tumbling Lumber.
Lightning Dash: Pretty nice, 2d12 damage +d12/3 is the best damage yet and its a line and is a movement too. still it has the overflow trait.
Rain of Rust: good range 60ft, ok area 10ft burst, 3d6+d6/2 + persistent on a fail and clumsy 1. Downsides? Water Metal composite, overflow and 3 actions.
Whiling Grindstones: 3d6 fire damage, only 30 ft. range and single target but you can sustain it. It's a composite and it's increase +2d6/5!

Compared to the other damaging level 4 impulses, TL is on the lower end of damage, but has the second best area of affect, 4 of the other 5 have overflow and two are composites.

i don't really like your comparison Is that most of the impulses you bring up are weak too in my book:

And the other two are MUCH stronger but you don't consider them in context:
-lava leap Is 4 actions worth of stuff in two: stride that ignores difficult terrain, +2 circumstance AC, decent damage which It's only gonna use to proc the weakness anyway (plus deals bludgeoning damage too, which Is the best physical type in the game). Lava leap Is honestly the best composite impulse
-blazing wave: It does d8s, there's no One in this universe that's not gonna take pure Fire impulses without the impulse junction, It's basically Needed in this case.
Plus It has a much Better area and overall It's the best damage impulse It has.

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Haha, well spotted, sorry about that, I got carried away ^^

I'm not so sure about that, seeing how many people have fantasies about the last airbender.

I think it's weird that you mention avatar the last airbender because It kinda shows what i mean.

This Is a kind of "well but a lot of people like vancian spellcasting". The issue Is with the %of people.

I find Mono-Elements to be perfectly fine.

You pick the typical area dealing effect or save effect and a few tools from your chosen element, By staying in a single element you gain access to mono-element feats and can easily pick up more utility from the non-elemental kineticist feats.

Extended kinesis
Versatile blasts
Weapon infusion
Kinetic Activation
Safe Elements
Counter Element
Elemental overlap.

Its a tradeoff.
more elements = bigger toolbox.
single element = more specialisation.

You dont even need to bother about the composites as you can gain those trough Elemental overlap.

The problem here Is that this trade off doesn't really exist in practice, since you can "freely" take another element with fork the path and since there are a ton of levels where there's nothing worth to take your choice Is not "versatility or specialisation" but "Better vs worse" in a extremely mono-dimentional way.

Mono-element is a deliberate self-imposed restriction and build, rather than being something like a subclass. Like a lot of things in PF2, there are some tools to mitigate a popular build that would normally be flat-out worse. Dual Slice, Deific Weapon, etc.

At early levels, it's getting an extra junction. At mid-levels, it's a few exclusive feats and access to the composite impulses.

But PF2 doesn't exactly go out of its way to reward giving up your versatility. If you want to go with one of the six mono-element instead of the fifteen duals or twenty trios, then that's your call.

Single Gate and Dual Gate are a subclass choice of sorts, but the former can branch out later if the player wants.

And that's a problem. A core fantasy of playing an elemental wizard (yes, kineticists are essentially elemental wizard, no One really cares about Gates and stuff) Is that, as we can see in most media, you're defined by A SINGLE element which often reflects your personality.

YuriP wrote:

I also have this view that the different elements have strengths and weaknesses by design. For me, the kineticist idea is precisely that you can play with a single element for mechanical or thematic reasons and make the most of it, but will keep the obvious weaknesses of that element. Or divide itself into multiple elements seeking to benefit from the coverage over the weaknesses of each other at the cost of sacrificing junctions.

In case it was unclear or if anyone missed it, this is specifically confirmed by the developers that they did this, and did it on purpose. In the playtest after-action report, there's a chart towards the bottom showing how they designed the playtest impulses, though they said that wouldn't necessarily be how they showed up on the actual class.

I agree with this, i disagree with how they actually made the class.

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I'm fairly certain it was brought up before that each element's balance of overflow/stance/reaction/three-action impulses is entirely intentional to give each element a different feel and they aren't going to substantially change that when printing new ones. Wood has more stances and three actions and that's just how it is.

(Also, what do you mean lacking two action impulses? They have a damaging one at 1st level and another at 4th, and a healing one at 6th. Being able to pivot between defense and offense on their 2 actions is pretty good?)

To put it bluntly, those two impulses suck so they might as well not have them.

Also, what i'm saying It's that even if it's intentional it's a bad choice on their part, three action impulses (since they almost all require sustaining It) force a kineticist into a "sustain+non overflow Two actions impulse" which would be cool if the wood kineticist had more options than "lol let's spam Timber sentinel".
Timber sentinel it's egregious honestly, It might as well be the only reason wood Is as useful as It Is, a first level impulse cannot be the whole pivot of an element

I...kinda agree.
I think it's pretty easy for a player to come up with a combat rotation of just a few impulses, if that's the style they like to play. A wider range of combat impulses will mostly just support circumstantial uses. Some more composite impulses would be cool just thematically, but they aren't needed to make a combat-effective kineticist.

The problem Is that perfecting a combat rotation IS the correct way of playing a kineticist.

And some elements even lack those! Wood has ONE USEFUL TWO ACTION IMPULSE! (Timber sentinel), like, c'mon It's absurd!

Deriven Firelion wrote:

I'm talking stuff like making sure it is clear the Incap trait on solar detonation only applies to the blinding effect, not the entire impulse which just put in the incap trait on the whole spell.

Fair.

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Make the fascination condition better or more clear so that Wiles on the Wind is something you might want to use.

Fair.

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Make Infinite Expanse of The Blue Heaven a lot more usable. The way it reads, it seems mostly useless. Level 18 impulses should be highly useful and do something clearly amazing.

??

On a successful save, the target is off-guard until they leave the area. So they either have to just accept the AC reduction or spend actions moving.

On a failed save, they get the Fleeing condition. They can't attack any more. They have to Stride or otherwise move to leave the area ... except that they have to pass a 50% flat check to do that. They will end up wasting at least one action moving randomly to a likely less-than-ideal location and can waste an unbounded number of actions (probably no more than 4 or 5) trying and failing to leave the effect.

And people think the spell Slow is good...

The only problem that I see with it is that since it costs 3 actions, you can't combine it with Pacifying Infusion to exclude your allies from the effect.

Though it would probably be borderline OP if you could combine it with Pacifying Infusion. You could have your Reach weapon fighter (or other characters with good movement based reactions) in the area while all the enemies proc RS.

Some other team tactics that do still work are:
* Have your Rogue Sneak Attack them repeatedly while they are all off-guard.
* Have someone with a big AoE like a burst or 30 foot cone cover the area in damage. Preferably repeatedly with something like a sustained duration spell while they run around like headless chickens in there.

I do also have to question at least the phrasing on this:...

The problem of infinite expanse of the Blue Heaven Is that it doesn't do anything usefull on a success (no, making Someone off guard at level 18 it's not usefull, on a success casters can send a boss back to pathfinder First edition while kineticist HAS to Hope they fail a rigged throw)

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I'm not ignoring it. I think I said twice if not three times that the fire combo is ahead of other kineticist builds in terms of damage. But still, that requires enemies to be in your aura, so if you're counting 'in the middle' as a detraction from air kineticist, in fairness that criticism would apply to a fire kineticist using Aura Junction + Thermal Nimbus to boost their dpr too.

I'd Say that there's a difference in the sense that a Fire kineticist HAS to Plan a way to get in melee to do that combo, so it's not really a weakness since Fire IS a melee element all things considered.

Air, meanwhile, really Isn't as most if not all of It's utility and damage Better works in a ranged enviroment.

Also, i brought up the Fire combo because kineticist damage doesn't work in a vacuum, but i want to consider It in the context of the game.

Non Fire damage is normal while Fire combo damage Is absurd in the context of the class

Non Fire damage Is low/very Low while Fire combo damage Is High/top tier in the context of pf2e as a whole

Fabios wrote:

ALSO, not every element has that kind of damage: wood doesn't, metal gets It super late, earth's costs three actions if i'm not wrong.

You're wrong.

Hail of Splinters (wood): L1 2d4 -> L19 20d4, ave 50.
Magnetic Pinions (metal): L1 2d4 -> L19 20d4, ave 50
Retch Rust (metal): L8 4d10 -> L20 10d10, ave 55
Tremor (stone): L1 1d8 -> L19 10d8, ave 45

How about the 3a impulses?
Hell of Needles (metal) gets to 59.5 average,
Shattered Mountain (stone) gets to 55

How about the other elements?
Air's 2a overflow is Lightning Dash. It gets to 7d12, ave 45.5 at L19
Fire's Blazing wave tops out at 12d6 or 12d8 with the junction, ave 42 or 55.
Water's Tidal hands tops out at 45; the harder to use call the hurricane gets to 54.

Except for Fire's All Shall End in Flames - which is a total beast - all the elements 2a overflow damage blasts - and in fact most of the 3a overflows, too - top out between 45-55 points of damage at their highest boost.

The biggest differences are in AoE shape, damage types, and other 'special' attributes. This makes them all unique and definitely makes some better than others for specific circumstances. So for example, Metal's Pinion damage is immediate and easy to target, versus Wood's Splinters being a cone with half being bleed. Is one objectively better? Well if you want immediate down, of 3 or less enemies, Metal's got that. If you've got a nice cone-shaped group of lots of enemies, or you think bleed over 2+ rounds is going to be really helpful, that's Wood's forte.

Quote:

the only kineticists that can rely on damage are: early metal, Fire and late metal It's a weird halfway there

I disagree. Air's the slowest to get it's 2a overflow and it's d12 L+3 progression is not as smooth so there will be some levels when it's behind (it's 'make up bonus' is that it also moves the kineticist out of melee range in a way immune to reactive strike), but they can all do roughly similar damage numbers.

Hail of splinters'es damage comes from persistent bleed, very strong but easily resisted.

Magnetic peons targets AC, this makes It very weak in the Grand scheme of things (also, i did specify that early game metal and late game metal had decent damage).
Air's Is basically a suicide bomb cause you end up in the middle and you're ignoring that a Fire kineticist Main damage source Is not It's impulse damage dices but the weakness coupled with thermal Nimbus.
By using the best Fire rotation (which doesn't include all shall end in flame cause it's kinda crap, blazing wave and lava leap are much Better) almost HALF your Total damage comes from flat sources (weakness, thermal Nimbus and the persistent damage you get from flame Oracle archetype).

Also, you should aknowledge that doing 50 points of damage ON A FAIL at level 20 Is worthless most of the time, you're barely poking at their hp bars without also giving them debuffs (which Is fundamental to High level play, if you're not a magus It's a game of debuffs where hitpoints are almost a formality)

Yeah, for the most part I'm satisfied with the impulses available now (and I'm not sure why OP said earth has no defensive reactions when calcifying sand is there - sure, it's only one, but it's there and pretty good.) We've already gotten Wood impulses from Wardens of Wildwood though, so I expect we'll get more here and there as time goes on. I also think it'd be fun if we could get some kinetecist or element specific armor or shields or other gear options in a Treasure Vault 2.

To be honest calcifying Sand Is so bad i don't even consider It.

"Ohh, you can... Close your aura and block once per fight... Yay"

While I'm fully in support of more Kineticist impulses, and even in fact brand-new elements, I question how much those impulses would need to round out existing elements. If mono-element builds are so constrained that they're a lot weaker than multi-element builds in spite of the extra junctions they get, then sure, but I don't know if that's really the case now.

I'd also say that if current elements are meant to be good at something, but aren't, then that is a separate issue from them needing more things to do. If water is meant to be really good at healing and lacks good healing, for instance, then the solution oughtn't to be to make its current healing options obsolete with better impulses or let water do a bit of everything, but to buff the weak impulses accordingly so that a dedicated water Kineticist can be an excellent healer (and terrain controller). I do think each element offers enough to let a character specialize into a niche that is worthwhile in and of itself, so if that specialization isn't being rewarded enough, I'd like that addressed first before more stuff is layered on top.

I fully agree with both of you! In fact i wouldn't want for elements to be samey, but i'd like for them to be able to stand on their own.

Water Is not able to stand on It's own NOT because It needs an armor, but because it's niches (healing and control) are not strong enough to carry It. I mean, honestly, It's barely a healer :/

-lay on hands but worse ONCE
-three action heal once but worse ONCE
-small heal when you critically fail a save

It Just doesn't cut It, if It could spam It or have more powerfull options THEN It could stand on it's own

I'd like to see them get more impulses too. Heck not necessarily even combat impulses - some geared towards exploration mode, info collection/scrying, things like that would IMO be cool.

In terms of damage, you should look again. With the exception of the much-discussed 'fire combo', and the two L18 fire impulses, every element has a similar-damage impulse range: 2a, overflow, about 1d8 + 1d8/2 levels, with some sort of AoE, topping out at between 45-55 average damage at L19-20. This IS low compared to casters, because it equates to approximately what you'd get from casting a 'best rank -1' damage spell. Like it or hate it, that's what Paizo has decided is the 'cost' of all-day-blasting: to be 1 rank behind the casters in terms of damage-dealing. On the plus side, this means that (with the exception of the fire combo mentioned above), pretty much any kineticist build you want to explore will be able to blast out the same approximate damage by L4. So you don't need to worry overmuch about finding some damage-dealing easter egg build. With the kineticist, it's much more about "what damage types, spell shapes, ranges etc. do I want to access."

I'd be surprised if someone is still expanding the portal at L13 and 17, unless it's just for pure thematic reasons. By that time you've collected, what, about 11 impulse slots in one element? Sure you'll want to retrain some as higher impulses become available, but I'm guessing in terms of utility you don't really need more than that in any single element.

-Most people would expand the portal at level 13 to pick up metal ironically, cause its best impulses are all level 12 and above (shattershields, metal form and the 1 milion shards or something like that)

-About damage, those are utterly pityful numbers sadly, you're not doing max level -1 damage but approximately max level -3/4 damage depending on the damage Spike. ALSO, not every element has that kind of damage: wood doesn't, metal gets It super late, earth's costs three actions if i'm not wrong.
Btw, that Is a slow damage progression sadly, It's nice to have "some" damage for sure but the only kineticists that can rely on damage are: early metal, Fire and late metal It's a weird halfway there

What on Golarion makes you think te class needs to be good at everything? No other class works that way, so why should kineticist?

But yeah, new impulses would be great.

I also disagree that solo element kineticists can't stand on their own. I've played several such characters successfully and had a (elemental) blast.

More than being good at everything i think that elements should be capable of doing more on their own.

There are some elements that are barely unplayable as a mono element (water and air)

There are elements that are basically One trick ponies (wood)

There are others that can stand on their own but are much, MUCH weaker than they would be if a kineticist Simply took other elements (metal, Fire, earth)

The class STRONGLY encourages mixing elements, and it's cool, but i'd like the chance to be as effective as a mono element kineticist

It's my favorite class but In my opinion kineticist desperately needs new impulses.

The Main weirdness of the class Is that almost no element Is auto-sufficient; every element has INSANE tools but they're very few and can't complete a character on their own:

-Metal can do a bit of everything but not well
(low damage, low tankiness till level 14, the junctions are not that great, specializes againts a SPECIFIC kind of enemy) and this Is a problem in a class that's encouraged to take the best stuff from each element and mix-mash It.

-Water's healing capabilities are very mediocre (with the exception of having the universal vaccine to every disease for some reason with "torrent in the Blood"); It's debuff capabilities are very weak (useless againts single targets, weak againts lots of enemies cause they only have One target) and has decent damage (by kineticist's standard, by "the whole game" standard It's terrible)

-Earth has insane junctions, the best armor, the best composite impulses and One of them best impulses (free Wall of Stone!). But doesn't have any defensive reactions, lacks an aura for some weird reason and really needs wood to fill in the gaps.

-wood relies too much on Timber sentinel, without It the element goes from 4.5/5 to 2.5/5 stars; It has the best junction in the game but no way to use It (heavily lacks in the "good Two action impulses" department)

-Air Is REALLY weird, It has very good impulses but, like water, basically cannot function on It's own: no traditional buff/debuff, no damage, no tankiness, no Will to break, no mind to think, no trailer, no etinoh.

-Fire: suffers from It's own success, gets EVERY tool It needs (Flying flame, area and impulse junctions, Fire wave, blazing wave) in the first five levels and then doesn't get anything till level 12.

I'd like to see more impulses for everyone, especially auras.
Do you think that this Need to mix them Is a bug or a feature?

keftiu wrote:

guns being kind of bad mechanically unless you play The Gun Class feels like one of the most bizarre facets of PF1 to bring forward.

I think it may be a 'least worst' option.

Highly realistic guns would have everyone using them, which really causes the fantasy setting to suffer.

Highly realistic gun class would make the gunslinger superior to other martials. That also causes the setting to suffer.

So Paizo making guns sufficiently bad that the gunslinger with feats + gun combo is only 'on par' with a fantasy martial swinging a sword, is maybe the best choice available. It makes space for a gun-totin' PC, without making either the weapon or the class so powerful that they become the one and only optimized choice.

The problem Is that guns aren't as good as a martial swinging their sword, they're an awfully useless class of weapons that, in any other case, would be considered bad.

Fatal IS a trait that's basically only useful on fighters and to dpr calculators, and It works Better in both of those cases when you make a lot of strikes per turn

So! I despise gunslingers and now i'm gonna, respectfully, write why :3

1- The class doesn't have an identity

I believe that the gunslinger fundamentally doesn't have a mechanical idendity.

-it Isn't a crit fishing class: weirdly enough the +2 doesn't really make Crits something the gunslinger excels at:
-they're not common, sure It has the +2 of a fighter but a fighter also sets up his own buffs and with reactive strike It DOUBLES the already augmented chance of critting. The other crit fisher of the system, aka longbow flurry ranger, still has a higher chance of critting by pure virtue of striking a LOT.

It doesn't even benefit that much from crits, base damage Is quite low (even with fatal) so its crits are not worldbreaking (in fact, a gunslinger's crit Is worse than a starlit span's hit!) and neither do they apply great debuffs like a fighter can do (cause, let's be honest, the best thing about fighters Is that at High levels you basically cast "shut his PC off" with each crit)

This also ties In with, i think, a wrong pov the community has about gunslinger: "oh! He needs support, he really benefits from It" but... Who doesn't? If you give a ranger with a gun the same support he's gonna rock the same if not Better, everyone likes support! Gunslinger benefits a lot because it's much much WEAKER without It! So the difference Is more felt

-The class doesn't have a proper identity

I think that the class, other than cheesing encounters if there's a Cliff but that's something everyone with a gun can do, doesn't have a clear identity and that hurts its design tremendously.
Let's take barbarian as an example, no matter what you do, no matter how you build him, he's gonna be a chonky boy that hits hard. What's gunslinger's deal? Not crit fishing, not damage, not really support either (fake out doesn't count, like, sure it's broken af but It shouldn't be an auto pick for everyone); many people would Say it's action compression. But. BUT. What are you gaining from It? Likes guns have AWFULL action economy and so you fix It with your various reloads. You Haven't gained anything! The gunslinger, as a class, uses weapons that are purpousely made bad so he can fix them, it's a net nothing overall! Capitalism the class! (Create a problem and buy the solution)

The point of Companions is that you cannot think as they have been a fully independent creature but as an improved 3rd action for your character. For example.

A character with Cavalier Archetype and Impressive Mount feat can use the horse to move at 40ft for “free” or 80ft using only one action to command the companion to move without risk to trigger a move reaction (who will trigger the reaction will be the horse) besides other uses.

A LVL 1 Precision Ranger using a two-handed d12 weapon with a bear companion could flank and make 2 strikes vs a hunted target, one of them MAPless, doing 1d12+STR+1d8(precision) and another with MAP-5 doing 1d12+STR while makes the bear to strike using jaws doing 1d8+3(STR)+1d8(precision) and a MAP-4 Strike with claw doing 1d6+3(STR) allowing this character having 2 more strikes with a bit weaker damage in place of its 3rd action.

IMO, these are very good improvements for a 3rd action. I'm not saying that wort nor that they are cheap due to the feats tax along the progression, but it has a point.

The problem with this Is that they scale so badly that they're not even an improved third action anymore, from level 10 and onwards they're strictly a WORSE third action

If they only cost a single class feat to get and keep up with, even if they're not great I think that might acceptable trade off.

I agree with this, since they're so... Bad i always either see them on casters (aka: carry me through level One and Two mahoraga) or on characters with free archetype (therefore they can Just disregard the feat taxi).

You either let them be Better or let them be cheaper, cause right now only casters can use them without feeling like a trap option (and that's only because some casters feats kinda suck and Simply adding hps up front Is usefull)

I think the best companion Is actually the construct, by mere virtue of being super cheap to heal and replace that you basically have a kamikaze that Just dies every fight and spams trips

This Is my personal argument on why companions are lame/bad.

So! First, definition: animal, construct, undead companions.

Second, argument: companions, in my opinion, are inherently flawed and contraddict aspecta of pf2e's interior design:

1- they require a massive feat taxi which offers almost purely vertical growth, to have your companion you MUST spend at least 4 feats which all give your companion REQUIRED numerical growth, aka:
-feat tax
-feat chain
-vertical growth
And those are all things that pathfinder 2e specifically tries to avoid mixed up!

2- they're lame as hell, companions have practically no customization, with construct literally having none at all, and every item Is utterly useless; if you wanna focus on your companion there's literally nothing you can do (Napoleon meme), they're Stuck with being the same from level 1 to level 20

3- they scale horribly, this Is caused by Two things.

1- the gaps between feats are too big, companions generally start to really suffer from level 11-13 and from level 17-20 because their scaling Is tied to feats! And there aren't any to cover those specific levels!

2- their numbers are Simply too low, look, i understand that their only utility Is being a meatshield and grappling but It comes to a point where the player's map actions are Better than the companion's non map actions!

Trip.H wrote:

RPG-Geek wrote:

... In PF2, there aren't any unavoidable attacks. Even your example gave you a 40% chance, with a reroll to avoid the effect of Belcorra's Feeblemind spell. ...

Dude... an RNG outcome is not player agency, how is this something that needs to be explained. Rolling the RNG generator has 0 choice involved, it's not agency. Holy crap I didn't expect to get this far in with that kind of misconception being present. Rolling a save is a cutscene that the player is forced to advance, there's 0 agency involved.

That's the trade-off for using dice rather than having to physically perform the actions of your character or using some other skill-based method of action resolution. It's inherent to the design of any game that uses dice, cards, or other pseudorandom means to generate a range of outcomes.

Quote:

If the PC has 0 hero points, the idea that it is *literally* possible for Belcora to go first, and then use Feeblemind to end a PC with 0 decisions/variable actions taken by the PC, is completely nuts.

(and the existence of such spells itself changes the meaning of hero points, which then need to be saved due to being the one single lifeline against such instant, unavoidable death)

"If a person is just sitting in their living room, the idea that it is *literally* possible for them to get hit by a stray bullet without any warning or time to react is completely nuts." (and the existence of such events itself changes the meaning of being comfortable in one's own home. In some cases, one might feel compelled to design their home to be bullet-resistant or wear a bullet-resistant vest to feel safe. This is clearly unacceptable and an example of poor design.)

Do you see how wrong it sounds when you apply your ideas of what make a good game to real life? If we want to simulate risk and chaos with dice, we have to accept that certain undesirable outcomes are and should be possible. The further we stray from the idea that, as unlikely as it may be, bad...

Are you unironically bringing up real Life in this? I Hope you're being ironical cause no One in the history of ever has ever wanted true realism in games, games are literally the opposite of realism conceptually and philosophically.

Claxon wrote:

You ever play Dynasty Warriors? Where you're one person killing hundreds and sometimes thousands of enemies? That's my jam.

Yeah, they're terminally boring to me. If I want to bash buttons, at least give me a Bayonetta or DMC where there's a challenge in getting good combo scores.

I mostly play BattleTech 2018 modded to the gills with an ultrahard difficulty mod, and I'll still go into battles 10 difficulty ratings (in a rating system out of 40) higher than me and walk out untouched.

Quote:

Can I play a super tactical game where I'm thinking through every decision and making the "best" decision with the knowledge I have? I mean probably, but that's not what I want to put into the game, and it's not fun for me to put in that amount of work.

I don't get this mindset at all. If you don't need to sweat at least a little, where's the fun in overcoming challenges coming from?

If i wanted to overcome a challenge i would either go play professional football or get down and prepare for my wittgenstein exam for my philosophy Major. Y'know, things that actually would be useful. I wanna play a roleplaying game where i'm not Stuck in my boring cog in the machine world, ever Heard of escapism?

Fabios wrote:

Fabula ultima, call of chtulu, not the end, the last Torch, Kids and bikes, dungeon and dragons 4th edition

I can list systems, too, but doing so doesn't make them objectively better.

Each One of those system Is modern, a great winner in its own niche and has a much Better game design (cause It follows ACTUAL game design, not copying a dumbass in his basement winging It).

Oh, add lancer, 20 times the complexity and build variety of pathfinder

Fabios wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

This is not some lazy isikai anime in which the party is overpowered and invincible right out of the gate. This is a tabletop roleplaying game, possibly the finest there has ever been. To insinuate that the math is badwrongfun is an insult to the developers that spent countless hours getting the math exactly right for the type of game they wanted.

This isn't about game design, but about heehawing one's personal preferences as the only correct way. Anyone who reads this thread and says otherwise are the ones being disingenuous.

"The finest there has ever been"

LOOOOL! pathfinder 2e Is the best d20 ttrpg ever that's for sure, but It's soooo far from the best ttrpg ever, It's actually exilerating that a system so convoluted and messy can be defined as the "finest"

Name something *objectively* better. Not subjectively, not your opinion, objectively better.

Fabula ultima, call of chtulu, not the end, the last Torch, Kids and bikes, dungeon and dragons 4th edition

This is the "better game" to me, so I'm sorry for having the wrong fun, I guess?...

Again, with all due respect and without being mean, yeah you're kinda wrong.

There Is One such things as personal preferences (which are sacred and i cannot argue againts them) and game design (which can be treated as an academic subject), and here we are talking about game design, not personal preferences.

Like, i know this metaphor might sound stupid but It's the best i can come up with: i'd rather read furry smut all day long than reading the kharamazovs Brothers, and those are my personal preferences, but i would never, in a discussion that tries to be objective as much as a discussion can be, Say that an ao3 monster hunter world's smut fic Is Better than One of the greatest novels to ever be written

Personally I agree with Deriven on this, there's no real issue with these numbers. It makes the early levels "more deadly" because honestly, why wouldn't they be? You're new to adventuring, or at the very least out of practice and likely to take a beating in all out combat.

This kind of reasoning Is, and i don't mean to sound unkind, genuinely the reason the ttrpgs space hasn't evolved much in all these years: you're applying narrative "common sense" reason while we should all apply ludo-narrative academic reason in such situations.

The main purpouse of EVERY SINGLE GAME EVER Is to be fun, not to be realistic, not to be accurate, but fun, this Is the reason there's not a secret roll to see if you're gonna die from a stroke all of a sudden, It's the reason that shooters gun don't work like in real Life.

If we Want to create Better games we should completely ignore common sense and focus on academic game design

Ravingdork wrote:

I'm not convinced the underlying math at low levels is problematic. I suspect that perception stems far more from the imbalances found in some of the earlier adventure path modules, which are known to have been calibrated poorly as the rules were still being written at the time.

The lack of an HP buffer combined with the most rapid period of numerical scaling in the game objectively make combats against higher level enemies more lethal. You are correct that the early modules are balanced poorly, but part of that is just that the encounter-building guidelines are not functional at low level. A single APL+2 enemy feels more like a severe (or rarely extreme) threat at those levels. APL+3 is a nightmare.

I also, personally, think the encounter-building guidelines have a hard time hitting "engaging, but not lethal" at low levels. My experience is that there's barely any daylight between "snoozefest" and "people are getting crit to the ground frequently" if you follow the encounter builder, especially with the lack of APL-3 or APL-4 enemies to fluff out encounters.

Low level encounters fail to hit that sweetspot specifically for the math problems that game has at that level range.

Fabios wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

I don't really like this analogy because between the two only one of them is a proactive way to engage with the enemies in combat. So it's not really like running out of arrows at all. It's more like a character with Reactive Strike having a fight where characters don't provoke very often.

i don't think something being proactive Is inherently Better than something being reactive

That's not the point, the point is that people are expected to make more proactive than reactive actions and the distribution of actions, accessibility of consumables etc. reflect that. Shield Block is reactive, hence it is balanced around doing its thing less frequently.

My point Is that It doesn't really make sense since champion Is an inherently reactive class.

Tridus wrote:

To be fair: if your character is built around shield blocking, running out of shield block can feel lousy. It's like playing an archer and running out of arrows except its much easier to carry piles of arrows.

I don't really like this analogy because between the two only one of them is a proactive way to engage with the enemies in combat. So it's not really like running out of arrows at all. It's more like a character with Reactive Strike having a fight where characters don't provoke very often.

i don't think something being proactive Is inherently Better than something being reactive

Fabios wrote:

...on par with a sturdy of the appropriate level (which Is basically the bare minimum for ANY shield really).

When you're looking at what the team designing the game have decided is the absolute best-in-class benefit for something as being "basically the bare minimum" the issue is one of personal perception, not the actual function of the game elements.

You're basically setting yourself up for disappointment by default by having tricked yourself into thinking a massive bonus a character can get is actually something that only gets you to the baseline so anything less is "subpar" even though that's not really true.

In my experience this kind of skewed perception is a common byproduct of people that are trying to play the game with high-difficulty challenges yet have overlooked the effect of the arms race aspect of that proposition so instead of the challenges being set to a difficulty and kept there even if the players make choices that will help them overcome that difficulty the challenges are being set up to be particularly hard even after making the useful choices - resulting in the false appearance that if the characters weren't built so strongly they would fail and die, when the actual case is that the GM just doesn't need to actually push the difficulty to that point in the first place for players to feel reasonably challenged. And if they did do that, the players might not come away from the experience so sure that if they don't have sturdy shield levels of shield blocking they are missing something important.

The point that you May not understand Is that in a game such as pathfinder 2e since, mathematically wise, your power level Is STRICTLY controlled by level progression (unlike previous editions) when we speak about numbers the best you can get Is usually (and in case It Is) the literal bare minimum. Are you saying that a shield lasting three shield blocks when i can do It twice per turn on myself or an ally Is "the best there Is and actually super strong" hell no It Isn't. This Is the same reason why everyone only used sturdy shields pre-remastered, everything was too frail to ever be useful otherwise and same thing applies here, every shield that doesn't match a sturdy IS too frail to do anything and i have, thanks to the guy above, the math to prove It.

I wouldn't care about all of this if i played in a homebrew game with an expert game Master, but since both of those things aren't true (playing extinction curse with a new GM) i have to punch above my Weight since paizo's writers can't for the Life of them design a normal AP, cherry on top we also have a newish player that decided to play a summoner and, with all due respect for him since he's new, doesn't have any idea on how to play One, i'd rather play the most boring and optimized champion that has no tiè to its backstory mechanically wise than have a new player cycle through characters because "single +2/3 enemy" Is the only thing that paizo published until 2022. (Btw, i'm not english so i don't know if i sound mean or anything, i don't know how to exactly moderate my tone when i write in english)

If you're curious about how i came to this conclusion i Simply followed the lessons that abomination vault taught me

Also shields rarely broken unless you frequently try to block critical damages with them (what usually doesn't worth unless is to avoid to become immediately unconscious). So if you repair your shield between every battle (just need some minutes specially if you have Quick Repair) you probably will have your shield ready to be used. Also once that Shield Ally allows to turn every shield almost like a Sturdy Shield you can simply swap your shields.

On most level, a fella here did the calculations above, shields break with four non-crit hits. Four shield blocks, for a Quick shield block champion that's ideally two turns

Folks, what i meant by what i said before Is that the "highest reinforcing rune for your level" doesn't Bring a steel shield on par with a sturdy of the appropriate level (which Is basically the bare minimum for ANY shield really).

It means that, practically, now you're not really saving that much cash, Just buying useless specific magic shields (there are literally THREE good ones ability wise: spellbound, clockwork, indestructible) because otherwise a normal steel shield with your blessing Will not be worth Two pennies if you're above level 7

Fabios wrote:

Because It doesn't really do that, since It gives you ONLY the rune appropriate for the level your shield won't have the maxed out stats. You Need lower level runes anyway (this Is how It's written, i Hope i'm wrong)

I'm not perfectly fluent in all the rules, so someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but reinforcing runes are fundamental runes and those simply get replaced/upgraded as they increase, you don't put previous runes on. Unless reinforcing runes are different in some way that I'm unaware of.

That Is, i think, the problem. You're still required to buy shield because the rune on its own doesn't get you a shield as strong as a sturdy One (aka, the bare minimum).

Fabios wrote:

Tactical Drongo wrote:

[

while I have also mixed feelings towards the new shield ally, this looks a loot like whiteroom mathematics
I doubt that even half the players get the chance for two shieldblocks per turn
and the extra hardness, while not much, still is useful, pathfinder is famour for a single point making a difference
also you seem to assume that every player blocks every strike at the maximum damage, while there are players out there who pace their shield blocks for critical moments and against strikes that do little to no damage against the shield

then again, with your last answer it feels also like your opinion is set in stone and you are going to ignore most, if not all, of the arguments presented here

-"oh but you'll have more shields to choose from" problem Is most shields are terrible, spellbound Is decent only for a while and then requires me to spend on reinforcing runes to keep It up since shield blessing only gives the appropriate level runes, which doesn't max out my shield, same thing for fortress and clockwork.

I'm somewhat confused by this statement, why would you need to spend on runes when it's already giving you runes of the appropriate level? Unless you mean to get the +1 Hardness bonus for already having the highest rune?

Because It doesn't really do that, since It gives you ONLY the rune appropriate for the level your shield won't have the maxed out stats. You Need lower level runes anyway (this Is how It's written, i Hope i'm wrong)

Fabios wrote:

WatersLethe wrote:

I like it just fine. You get reliable access to a shield that you can use for blocking, no matter what loot drops or what shops or crafting are available. That extra point of hardness on an already Sturdy shield is gravy.

Also, blocking three strikes in a battle covers most battles, no? Not only is that a decent amount of damage mitigated, you also have your main class feature competing for the same reaction resource.

Anyway, looks like a matter of taste to me.

In my opinion It really doesn't, a champion with shield of reckoning and reactive shield should AT LEAST use two shields blocks every turn, and if you're not using viking's second shield then you're not gonna last more than three rounds.

Also, +1 hardness Is... Pathetically useless, with all due respect It could've been taken out completely

I guess the value of that hardness increase depends on the damage your taking at each level and how many hits till it breaks and finally how much damage mitigation do you need based on your HP at that level.

Take the high damage average from the GM Core strike damage table for comparison.
I put level - high average damage - shield Hardness - shield BT - # attacks till break against high average damage (BT/ (Creature high average damage-hardness)) - PC HP - damage reduced by shield if used till it breaks against high average damage.
Shield stats include Shield ally and sturdy shield for the level. PC HP is champ human with +2 starting Con to +3 at level 5 +4 at level 10 and toughness taken at level 3.
-1 - 03 - 05 - 10 - NoBr - 020 - NA no shield ally yet
00 - 05 - 05 - 10 - NoBr - 020 - NA no shield ally yet
01 - 06 - 05 - 10 - 10.0 - 020 - 50 no shield ally yet
02 - 09 - 05 - 10 - 02.5 - 032 - 15 no shield ally yet
03 - 12 - 08 - 32 - 08.0 - 047 - 64 regular steel with shield ally
04 - 14 - 09 - 32 - 06.4 - 060 - 63 sturdy (minor)
05 - 16 - 09 - 32 - 04.5 - 078 - 45 sturdy (minor)
06 - 18 - 09 - 32...

Seen these calculations, would you agree with me that shields break excedingly fast especially at higher levels? Isn't It absurd that my shield can barely last Two turns if i actually use It?

[

while I have also mixed feelings towards the new shield ally, this looks a loot like whiteroom mathematics
I doubt that even half the players get the chance for two shieldblocks per turn
and the extra hardness, while not much, still is useful, pathfinder is famour for a single point making a difference
also you seem to assume that every player blocks every strike at the maximum damage, while there are players out there who pace their shield blocks for critical moments and against strikes that do little to no damage against the shield

then again, with your last answer it feels also like your opinion is set in stone and you are going to ignore most, if not all, of the arguments presented here

My opinion Isn't really set in Stone for magical reasons, my opinion Is based on arguments that Haven't been really addressed not by your nor anyone.

-"oh but you'll have more shields to choose from" problem Is most shields are terrible, spellbound Is decent only for a while and then requires me to spend on reinforcing runes to keep It up since shield blessing only gives the appropriate level runes, which doesn't max out my shield, same thing for fortress and clockwork.

-"oh but you'll save so much Money" which you Will not, because since you're forced to have backup shields you'll have to put lower level reinforcing runes on them because Just the shield blessing doesn't automatically maximize them.

-"you'll never shield block twice per turn that's absurd" reflexive shield+shield of reckoning. The most BASIC thing every shield champions gets and that lets you do that twice per turn, you can't Just ignore that.

-"oh but every +1 Number counts" It doesn't. A +1 to hit Is a +5/10% damage based on the Attack roll not a flat +1, every flat +1 Is basically useless and you can't compare them, especially since that +1 Will cost you loads of golds (which, AGAIN destroys the purpouse of the shield ally change)

-"why should you block every strike, you should use them on less damaging strikes" while it's common knowledge that you don't shield block crite you can't fix a weak shield by using It less, because less blocks you use more damage you take and since your whole usefullness as a class Is defined by damage mitigation you're gonna significantly weaker.

I don't have my mind set in Stone for dumb reasons, but for some debateable ones

I like it just fine. You get reliable access to a shield that you can use for blocking, no matter what loot drops or what shops or crafting are available. That extra point of hardness on an already Sturdy shield is gravy.

Also, blocking three strikes in a battle covers most battles, no? Not only is that a decent amount of damage mitigated, you also have your main class feature competing for the same reaction resource.

Anyway, looks like a matter of taste to me.

In my opinion It really doesn't, a champion with shield of reckoning and reactive shield should AT LEAST use two shields blocks every turn, and if you're not using viking's second shield then you're not gonna last more than three rounds.

Also, +1 hardness Is... Pathetically useless, with all due respect It could've been taken out completely

I don't think that "It's cheap" Is a great class design, like, if i want to be a shield guy i wanna spend on a shield.

Also labbing out the shield hps i kinda realized that without that boost they're pathetically low, like, i'm THE shield guy and i can barely block three strikes.

Thirdly you also cannot "cheese" this problem with the viking archetype, rule wise second shield doesn't work as you Need to prepare the blessing in a specific shield.

ALSO you don't even save cash! If you do the math the previous thing made lower tier runes Better than current ones (example: a level 4 sturdy shield with shield ally Is Better than current level 10 sturdy shield!)

Fabios wrote:

-i get no progression, It gets boring when you basically gain NOTHING of value inbetween level 1 and 7 (1 to 6 feats suck and everything you Need Is already given at level 1)

Blessed, a couple 'bonus to save' feats, auras, expansion of auras, a full reactive strike if you don't like how your champion's reaction is working. It seems like a pretty solid set of options to me.

Quote:

i wanna be a tank and play Someone big with a shield but now shield Champions get basically nothing for being shield Champions (worst remastered change ever, if i wanna play something i Will be able to spend Gold for It)

They get several abilities that buff the use of their shield - making it tougher and blocking more useful or buffing shields of the spirit.

But as someone else mentioned, there is no equivalent of 'aggro' in this TTRPG. Enemies can choose to attack whom the GM wants them to attack, and you have to use tactics (i.e. get in their way, with a reaction, or have your other party members move to unattackable positions) to prevent them from attacking other targets.

***

If you are looking for aggro specifically, then the upcoming Guardian may be something you should look into. While it got mixed reviews on these fora during the playtest, it seems pretty clear Paizo was at least trying to give that class an "attack me not them, or suffer bad consequences" vibe.

I really dislike the Guardian, i regard Its whole class as the result of an hangover.

Tho, on the main point: the aura i could get reduces frightened, which Is usefull when it's usefull but also insanely situational, Attack of opportunity and bonus to saves are also (sadly) reactions! Which adds more "should i shield block or champion reactions" tò my problems. Like, nothing really "adds" tò my character, they give some situational stuff which Is cool but meh.

I'd like to thank you all foi r the partecipation, i'm tempted to play a champion for a following game but everytime i think about It i see nothing but problems.

-i get no progression, It gets boring when you basically gain NOTHING of value inbetween level 1 and 7 (1 to 6 feats suck and everything you Need Is already given at level 1)

-i wanna be a tank and play Someone big with a shield but now shield Champions get basically nothing for being shield Champions (worst remastered change ever, if i wanna play something i Will be able to spend Gold for It)

I think the main problem is that the OP thinks of 'Tanks' in mmo turns and not in tabletop terms

being able to get hit by all the enemies in an encounter standing upright, mitigating damage and forcing them to 'waste' their action on the character while the healer pumps lifepoints into them

I'd disagree that there Is any fundamental difference in concept inbetween a mmo tank and a ttrpg tank.

A tank has to do Two things:
-take aggro
-being able to resist damage After taking up aggro.

How would you define a tank otherwise? Cause every glass cannon can take aggro quite easily

You may dot-delete with your characters here to register the table to your campaigns.

This is for OOC discussion.

Please list your intended character. This will help me make my selection.

You may also list any back-up choices. If you're one of those like me who have a dozen choices, you can also just say that.

Let me know if you're new to PF2, PFS, or PbP.

Let me know if you're a PbD GM who isn't a Paizo forums GM. I'll recognize forum GMs.

OOC Discussions. Additional content coming later.

“As you know,” Venture-Captain Eras begins, idly fidgeting with some paperwork in front of him as he talks, “our audience with the city’s ruling council to discuss the possibility of reopening trade is tomorrow, and we must make a good impression. It seems that there are some here who feel that Ekkeshikaar has nothing to gain by trading with us–“

“Backwards isolationists! Everywhere has at least a few,” interjects Calisro with a snort, taking a swig of a colorful drink that nonetheless smells strongly of liquor.

“Yes, well.” Eras clears his throat. “In any case, this… reclusive sentiment is certainly not shared by all of Ekkeshikaar’s citizens, but it has a grip on enough of them that we feel some additional preparation is in order. To that end, we’d like you to take on a few tasks that will help give us an edge when the time comes tomorrow. First and foremost, we need you to recover some documents from the city’s Hall of Records. We’ve already identified the documents we need, which outline some of the finer points of local law, as well as the details of the original trade agreement with the people of Vidrian. We put in a request for the documents days ago, but we have continued to be met with red tape and bureaucratic delays.”

“He means they’re stalling, and don’t want to give them to us.” Calisro chimes in cheerfully, with a wry smirk.

“A tactic my colleague here is very familiar with,” Eras retorts good-naturedly. “Sadly, I’m beginning to think she’s correct. And without these documents, we’re essentially going into the negotiations blind. So, we’d like you to head down in person and sort these ‘irregularities’ out yourselves. How you do this is ultimately up to you, but by happenstance, we’ve already agreed to send a stack of Pathfinder Chronicles to the Hall of Records to be transcribed. These particular chronicles come with a rather complex index written in Hallit, which is not a language known here. Someone will be spending a fair deal of time assisting the clerks in translating, organizing, and otherwise sorting through the chronicles. If it’s you, you’ll have plenty of time to get to know these bureaucrats—and perhaps learn a bit about the iruxi yourselves.”

“Or,” interjects the half-orc captain, producing a small wooden box, stamped with a Taldan coat of arms and labeled ‘Voinarum Glade Winery: 4700 ar’ “I’ve never known a bureaucrat who would say no to a good bottle of wine. Just offer it as a thank you gift for ‘expediting our request,’ and try not to wink or nudge them with your elbow as you do it. That way, you don’t have to spend the whole afternoon
sorting papers.”

Eras sighs. “As much as I’d prefer we not start our relationship with Ekkeshikaar with bribery, it’s true that time is at a premium here. We do have other tasks we’d like you to attend to after this is done. I’ll leave how to handle the situation to your discretion, but please hurry back either way: Calisro and I will need as much time as possible to look over those documents, and you’ll need as much time as possible to complete the other things that need doing.”

I am recruiting for a Battlecry! playtest session of the repeatable level 3-6 scenario, 1-23: Star-crossed Court.

I will be speedrunning this scenario, which means that I will focus on the rules and mechanics. I will expound very little outside of the pre-written text. However, feel free to be as colorful and descriptive as you want in your posts. I will also skip/delay anyone who has not responded to a prompt in >24 hours.

I will also take a note from rainzax and request anyone playing a playtest character agree to post verbatim the rules text for any ability they are using (spoilered or otherwise).

I won't know how many playtest characters I'll allow until the document drops. Once I've seen the document, I will post a list of playtest options.

For example only, at baseline:
1 Commander
1 Guardian

This is not a first come first seated recruitment. I will arbitrarily select from interested players.

I'll reserve for rainzax 1 seat and first pick of playtest options since he's running a playtest and eagerly awaiting someone to recruit to a playtest.

I could not find a thread with this topic, so I apologize if I'm repeating someone else's idea(s).

You are the interlocutor between the seen and unseen, the voice that connects the mortal and the spiritual. You may hold your powers as a sacred trust to be kept free of ego and personal desire, or you may see your unique abilities as a sign that you’ve been chosen as a champion of two worlds. Whether you advocate for mortals before the planes beyond or whether you represent the spirits’ interests, one thing remains certain: you provide the bridge between realms.

I don't feel like the Animist meets the class summary's potential. I feel like the Animist has been pigeon-holed into the naturalist animist role, and this is done largely by the class basics (key stat and class skills) and to a lesser extent by the apparition themes. My gut suggests this is a side effect of trying too hard to "make a new class" rather than calling it a 2e version of Medium or/and Shaman.

Currently, the Animist's Key Statistic is Wisdom and starts with Nature and Religion plus 0+INT in additional skills.

The Custodian of Groves and Gardens, Stalker in Darkened Boughs, Steward of Stone and Fire, and Vanguard of Roaring Waters are all very nature themed. Four out of the six presented apparitions.

However, there are far more ways to design a spirit-channeling character fantasy than just a naturalist animist. Even if you reskin your mechanics to be a refined, city dwelling Taldan speaker-for-the-dead medium from Oparra, you're still stuck with Nature as one of your very few class skills and most of the apparitions giving you nature-related Lores.

Suggestion, which has precedent in Fighter and Monk and Psychic:

Choice of Key Stat: Intelligence or Wisdom

Starting Skills: Nature or Occultism plus <either (1+INT, preferred) or (Religion + 0+INT)> EDIT (for clarity): the 1+INT or Religion+0+INT isn't a player choice, those were two suggestions to the design team.

Assuming significantly more non-nature themed apparitions are released with the book, you can then mix and match your key stat and starting skill to better fit different character fantasies.

For example, you can be a learned scholar of the spirit world with Intelligence as a key stat and take occultism and society plus diplomacy and deception with your extra skills, a reclusive naturalist who speaks to the spirits of the wild with Wisdom as the key stat and take nature and survival or medicine with your skills, or a reverent adherent of the empyreal realm with Wisdom as the key stat and take occultism and religion with your starting skills.

You could also be slightly less explicit in the description of what the spirits represent. The Steward of Stone and Fire could "spirits tied to stone, fire, or the souls who worked with them in life" rather than "near volcanoes and the
deep places near the heart of the earth, though particularly old rock formations, canyons, and other natural features of earth may also spawn or attract them."

Reserved Event

Out of Character discussion here.

Reserved Event

For out of character persistent notes.

1. Please fill out the Macro file.
* Select an unclaimed Tab.
* Rename the Tab to your PC's name.
* Replace "PC #" in the gray ribbon with your PC's name (no apostrophes or quotation marks).
* Fill out the saves, perception, initiative, and skills including lores.
* Check the box "Send to GM" in the skills and lores for things you don't mind me botting.

2. Please fill out the Slides & Refence pages with your token, marching order, and details.

Thank you and let's have fun!

You have been sent to the recently established Sedeq Lodge in Qadira. The young lodge has quite a reputation for attracting trouble in its short existence. Today you have been summoned to meet with the Venture-Captain, Esmayl ibn Qaradi, for your assignment.

The Venture-Captain is currently occupied in his office, so you must wait in the well furnished waiting room.

The official start date for this PbP is May 29th, 2023.

Registered players may dot here. Additional information coming in the Discussion soon.

Discussion thread for Q14.

A riverboat ferries you up the East Sellen River to Restove, the capital of Brevoy. As you disembark, the unmistakable figure--stout, bald, and a magnificent beard--Marcos Farabellus greets you.

"Ah, agents! So very good to see you! Welcome to Restov. I hope your journey wasn’t too bothersome. This time of year the mosquitoes on the Sellen can be worse than falling face first and buck naked into a patch of poison ivy." Marcos punctuates his own jest with a bellowing laugh. "Let’s get you all a bit freshened up before I get to the heart of the matter."

For any durable, OOC discussion.

Since this is a quest, you each begin with 1 Hero Point and have access to your School item.

You were sent to the Sothis lodge in Osirion, the Sandswept Hall, and anticipate your assignment any day now. The lodge is a two-story converted prison constructed from limestone bricks. Two stone statues of sphinxes flank the entryway, and the doors are reinforced with copper. Tranquil gardens surround the lodge, separating it from the bustle of the busy Osirion capital.

Take this opportunity to introduce/re-introduce your characters and have them chat among themselves while I finish prep.

I could not find this discussed, though it might be hiding in a side discussion within a different thread topic.

Recently, a player proposed something that did not seem correct to me, but I can see where someone might get the idea and I'm willing to be educated.

Here are the relative rules text for reference:

If you come across a secret door, item, or hazard while Searching, the GM will attempt a free secret check to Seek to see if you notice the hidden object or hazard.

Even if you aren’t Searching, you get a check to find traps that normally require you to be Searching.

Even when you aren't Searching while in exploration mode, the GM rolls a secret check for you to notice haunts that usually require you to be Searching.

During exploration, even if you aren't Searching, the GM rolls a secret check for you to find traps, environmental hazards, haunts, and secrets (such as secret doors). The GM rolls each time a given hazard or secret comes within 20 feet of you and within the lantern's bright light.

We'll start with the underlying premise proposed:

If you have Trap Finder/Haunt Ingenuity/Lantern and are Searching, do you get 2 secret checks to detect a trap? One for Searching and one for the feat/feature.

The next step in the proposal was this:

If you have Haunt Ingenuity (and/or Trap Finder if you multiclass), the Lantern Implement, AND are using the Search exploration activity, do you get 3 secret checks per haunt/trap? I.e., One for Searching and one for each feature that allows you to get a secret check even if you aren't searching.

Happy to be educated by the group mind.

This is the PFS 2nd Edition Multi-Table Special for Gameday XI.
Sign-up can be found here: Sign-up Link
The game will start on September 11, 2022.

This is the PFS 2nd Edition Multi-Table Special for Gameday XI.
Sign-up can be found here: Sign-up Link
The game will start on September 11, 2022.

GM benevolence aside, how should the following scenarios play out by the rules?

Situation 1, which I think is the simplest:

You take a Skill Feat (Intimidating Gaze) in your 3rd level General Feat slot. You advance to 4th and gain a Skill Feat slot. Now you want to move Intimidating Gaze to the 4th level Skill Feat and take Fleet as your 3rd level General Feat.

1. Can you take Intimidating Gaze in the 4th slot then spend 1 week retraining 3rd level General slot Intimidating Gaze into Fleet? I expect “No” because you can’t take Intimidating Gaze more than once.

2. You take a different Skill Feat in the 4th level slot (let’s say Group Coercion). How do you get Intimidating Gaze to the 4th slot and Fleet in the 3rd? Retrain Intimidating Gaze to Fleet, losing Intimidating Gaze until you get 7 more days of Downtime to retrain Group Coercion into Intimidating Gaze? It’s odd conceptually that the skill you know and want to keep disappears for 7 days for the maneuvering, but I think that’s the way it has to be.

Or can you retrain Group Coercion into Intimidating Gaze and the 3rd level slot becomes empty until you retrain Fleet into the empty slot?

The other situation is more complex but may be answered with the simpler situations above.

◈ Prologue ◈

The crane’s beam swings back over the pier. With the last of the copious supplies for the month’s long voyage around Nagajor and the Valashmai to the island of Bonmu, the captain signals to the deckhands at the gangplank. Sailors on the deck unfurl a red and gold carpet that rolls down the plank. Once it reaches the pier, the deckhands remove a golden rope barring access to the gangplank and move to the side. The crowd behind you seems to press on you without touching you as though you can feel the collective eagerness of every man and woman waiting to board.

With your invitation to the Ruby Phoenix Tournament came passage on the Dancing Carp, a massive three hundred foot long, four masted ship built for long ocean voyages, paid for by the Grand Bank of Abadar. Not everyone waiting to board the mighty vessel is heading to the pre-qualifier on the Minantan island of Bonmu. Travelers and merchants–most of Tian descent–fill the crowd, but there is a man or woman in the crowd who could easily be another competitor.

On the deck, you gaze out over the Xu Hong Bay. Without a significant breeze, the water is especially calm and blue today. The water beyond the colossal statues of Shizuru and Tsukiyo that guard the entrance to the bay is gray and rough with ocean chop. Once you breach the mouth of the bay and pass beyond the shadow of the Wall of Heaven, the wind will fill the sails.

A deckhand acknowledges your invitation and records your names in the passenger log. ”Welcome aboard the Dancing Carp. You will berth in Lu 8,” he informs you, handing you a simple key with the character and the number pressed into the bow. ”Meals are served common style in the galley three times each day. The gong sounds at the beginning of each meal. There will be jerked meats, hard breads, and citrus fruits in between meals during the day. You are free to take what you want, but do not take more than you need. If you have any other questions, each deck has several attendants.”

Welcome!

The Challenge Point system is getting better. However, I have not seen any guidance--official or unofficial--regarding how to handle sudden, unexpected changes in the party composition. The best answer might be to leave it to GM discretion, but I'm going to ask the question anyway.

There are a few situations that I have experienced as a GM and as a player where the party that set the Challenge Points for the scenario is no longer the same party some part of the way through the scenario. Each of them have slightly different nuance to them, so I'll list them out individually. There are probably other versions I haven't encountered.

1. A character dies mid-scenario without means of resurrection.

Example: A party of 4 equal level characters (CP 12 begins). One dies. The remaining characters generate CP 9 and one character's worth of actions down. Do they continue to experience CP 12 adjusted encounters or do they now encounter CP 9 adjustment (usually no adjustment)?

2. A player disappears (leaves the table and doesn't return, whatever the reason).

The same change in party composition occurs as if one of the characters had died. E.g., CP 12 party becomes a CP 9 party.

Do you continue on as 3-player team with the original CP or the new CP?
Do you whip out a Pregen to replace the missing player?
If the Pregen changes the CP (up or down) do you adjust the encounters?
What if it was a 5-player team that is now 4-players?

3. A player intentionally has his character abandon the in-game activity.

Example: Paladins refusing to fight the enemy or even participate as healing or defense.
Example: Players who get pissed off that they can't roll higher than a 4 on the d20 and just have their character Stride x 3 off the battle map.

In this case, what do you do? The GM, the table try to encourage the player to engage, boost their spirits, but the player is obstinate that their character is abandoning the encounter. It's even worse then that person brought 6 CP to the calculation, but they're still there at the table, still expecting their chronicle at the end, and the party is fighting an encounter scaled for 6 more CP than is actually participating.

These are all real situations--only the numbers have been changed for easier math--that I have encountered more than once each on both sides of the GM screen.

Welcome to Pathfinder Society 2nd Edition Scenario 2-04: Path of Kings being run for Outpost V.
Sign-ups are managed through the central Outpost V Event Listing.
GM early player access opens February 13th, 2022.
General seating opens February 20th, 2022.

Please dot-delete to register the campaign to your profile.

I will put together a RPGChronicles sign-in soon.

Place your dot-delete, ghost dots, ninja dots, etc.

Holding

Holding

Welcome!

Please provide me with the following information:

Your Organized Play Number & Character Number
Slow Track (half rewards) or Regular Track

Welcome!

Please provide me with the following information:

Your Organized Play Number & Character Number
Slow Track (half rewards) or Regular Track

Welcome!

Please provide me with the following information:

Your Organized Play Number & Character Number
Slow Track (half rewards) or Regular Track

Discussion

Private PFS Play-by-Post.

I'm writing this with PFS(2) in mind because the knowledge system has become more codified within the PF2 rules and subsequently scenarios/adventures than with PFS(1) or SFS, but the same concept would work for those campaigns, too. However, I wouldn't hold my breath for PFS(1). When I talk about the PF2 mechanic Recall Knowledge, it applies just as well to the knowledge checks in the other campaigns.

I swiftly became frustrated with the Organized Play convention that my character was a blank slate who knew nothing of the things that he had done before, be it in scenarios played or associated things to my background. I understood and still understand the rationale for requiring new Recall Knowledge on the same creature when encountered during a different scenario. The GM doesn't need to waste time adjudicating whether your character should legitimately know what a gibbering mouther can do or whether you're cribbing from the Bestiary. And, honestly, if that was all it meant, I probably wouldn't even bother to draft this suggestion. However, if applies to all efforts to Recall Knowledge: locations within cities, cultural habits of common human ethnicities, laws within a town, areas of concern for deities, identifying religious iconography, and on and on.

So... what?

So I hate it when my character looks like a wooden plank with two googly eyes glued on and a bunch of stats written on it. My Sarkorian druid who, as the child of Sarkorian refuges who traveled to Nantambu, and studied at the Magambya with the hopes of going to old Sarkoris and helping to reclaim the land for his people (he was one AP too late) knows nothing of the people of the Mwangi expanse, the city of Nantambu, or the Magambya, or Sarkoris or Kellid people without a successful Recall Knowledge check within the scenario. Even though he's got an Intelligence of 14 and took features to give him extra skills. Is his background campy? Sure, maybe, but he's my campy character, and it drives me crazy that he can't even answer a question about what is the Sarkoris Scar in a scenario briefing.

Honestly, we're at advantages when we're dealing with things not called out in scenarios with Recall Knowledge DCs because as GMs, we generally let our players run with their characters background. I could talk all about the practices of the Cascade Bearers during a scenario set in Varisia and how that branch's philosophy applies to a particular situation and nobody blinks an eye. I play a scenario where that information matters and I've got to succeed a roll to know it, even as a character who literally is a Cascade Bearer via feats and AcP expenditures.

<<Within these brackets is an aside that I feels underscores the PF2 system's problem. It is not my point. Please don't zero in on what's between these brackets and make the discussion about this. PF2 codifies this amnesia with feats like Student of the Canon where I need to take a feat as a Cleric to actually know about the tenets of my own deity. Does this mean Clerics can be ignorant of their own tenets and be forgiven? I'm a priest of Pharasma, but I rolled a 1 on my Recall Knowledge check to know what my own anathemas are, so it's OK that I rob this tomb? Or elves, hundreds of years old elves, need to spend a precious ancestry feat on Know Your Own in order to not ever critically fail a Recall Knowledge check about elves or elven society. You don't even get the benefit like Student of Canon where a failure turns into success, you just don't ever actively (edit: mis-) remember what ilduliel is.>>

Transitioning on to monsters, combat, and tactical information, which bothers me the least, I am still bothered that a given fellow player or GM might accuse you of metagaming for merely making an empirical choice without having spent an action to Recall Knowledge. The creature is made of fire, so I'm not going to use my go-to offensive cantrip, produce flame. The creature is made entirely of bones, so I'm going to try this club against him instead of my usual spear that's probably not going to hit. Or that's a skinny broom trying to attack me, so I'll use an axe instead of a spear.

Then the least issue of not remembering from scenario 1 where I used a sword against a skeletal opponent and it had resistance, so I can't simply opt to use a different weapon when I encounter a skeletal opponent in scenario 2.

Yes. I could be wrong with my empiric choices or even extrapolating things that my character experienced. If I want to ensure I'm right, I would make a Recall Knowledge check. Yes. There are lots of situations where what I knew before is not correct, and I agree with those situations, but I shouldn't forget what I knew and not be able to try what worked before or make empiric guesses.

But the GM can't waste time adjudicating all that stuff every time, we want to play the scenario! Yes. I agree. But I think we can do better.

SUGGESTION (in no particular order)

1. Use the chronicle space that used to be for boons and list the creatures encountered. The GM crosses off any creatures not encountered. You don't need to make Recall Knowledge checks to know some set of information about the creatures, e.g. weakness, resistance, and immunity (and maybe energy type of any primary special attacks or damage riders like fire for a fire mephit, but I think the list should be relatively short).

2. Organized Play writes a Pathfinder Training list of things known about a fixed list of common monsters. E.g., bludgeons work best against skeletons, goblins can see in the dark, demons are weak to cold iron (I mean, you still need to actually fork over the money for a cold iron weapon). But I'm not picky, just something to represent having trained at an adventurer's guild for crying out loud.

3. Set auto-pass thresholds in scenarios for knowledge related to ancestries, backgrounds, cleric and champion's deities, and home regions. Anything like that. E.g., Society DC 16 reveals "some colorful detail that's not particularly secret" about Thuvia, if character's Home Region is the Golden Road, they automatically succeed.

4. Organized Play writes things commonly known things about regions of the world. This would be a big ask, and I wouldn't expect it, but it would be nice to have a reference as to what my character is "allowed" to know about their own home region, home town, culture, etc.

Gameday X starts September 6th, 2021.

Gameday X Play-by-Post begins September 6th, 2021.

Gameday X Play-by-Post begins September 6, 2021.

Welcome to the Outpost IV PFS(2) multi-table special (tier 5-6).

Please dot-delete to register this campaign to your Campaigns page once you have signed up on the Outpost IV signup sheet. Thank you.

Please dot-delete to register this campaign to your Campaigns page once you have signed up on the Outpost IV signup sheet. Thank you.

Welcome to PFS(2) 2-1 Citadel of Corruption run for Outpost IV.

Note: If we run at Low Tier, critical hits will be rolled as extra dice, otherwise they will simply be doubled.

Please dot-delete to register this campaign to your Campaigns page once you have signed up on the Outpost IV signup sheet. Thank you.

Welcome to PFS(2) 1-4 Bandits of Immenwood run for Outpost IV.

Note: If we run at Low Tier, critical hits will be rolled as extra dice, otherwise they will simply be doubled.

As campaign mode and a bounty, plus the Season 2 changes, I only need the following information from you:

PFS Number & Character Number
Faction

If you also give me the PFS character's name, it will help me to avoid reporting error.

Thank you!

You have recently arrived at Aaminiut, the largest town in the Eratuki land of Hasanaliat. By some chance of fate, you all come to read the notice board at the same time this night. The town's two leaders--the Ulfen merchant Bjorn the Blade and the Erutaki elder Seshu, converse quietly as Bjorn hammers the final nail attaching a scrolled piece of hide to the village’s notice board.

Hunters needed!

Over the past weeks, a creature some of us have come to know as the “Whitefang Wyrm” has been spotted lurking near our settlement, stealing fish from our nets and baskets and leaving nothing but wreckage in its wake. We believe the creature’s lair is somewhere on or across the ice floes of Whitefang Bay. As this creature poses a threat to the survival of all of Aaminiut’s residents, we have prepared a sack of ivory and oosik carvings from the Erutaki and silver bracelets and armbands from the Ulfen, payable to whoever ends the creature’s attacks on our food supply. Proof of the creature’s defeat must be presented to claim this bounty.

-Elder Seshu and Bjorn the Blade

For this exercise, I am forgoing the Secret aspect of Secret Checks, so please roll on your own. If you would prefer to hide them from yourself, feel free to spoiler your rolls.

Recall Knowledge: Arcana or Dragon Lore

You each have 1 Hero Point.

I will be running the Whitefang Wyrm in campaign mode for PFS credit.

The goal of this campaign mode is to playtest the Summoner and Magus playtest classes.

It will provide PFS credit to a valid PFS character.

The first Summoner and the first Magus are guaranteed a spot.

In order to complete within the time frame, this will not be my standard offering of a PbP adventure but rather what I will call a "Tactical Run." The focus will be on the mechanical aspects of the game. That is not to say that you cannot be creative in your posts but to prepare you that I will not be particularly creative in my posts.

Character Creation Rules

A. Build a Summoner or Magus: try to break the game using PFS legal resources (with the obvious exception of the playtest classes and feats).
B. Build/bring a character that could synergize with either a Summoner or Magus
C. Build/bring a character that could be outshined by the Summoner or Magus

I need at least 1 Summoner and at least 1 Magus.

1. You can build a level 1 PFS-legal character with 25.5 gold.
2. You can port over any of your level 1 PFS characters stats and equipment

Obviously, the crazy stuff does not happen until later levels, but this is the fastest option for PbP. If something is obvious at 1st level, it will be applicable at later levels, too.

Count me in for being hugely disappointed in the change to the Spells school items. No auto-heightening and a much narrower list (not to mention only getting 1 item) makes this benefit much harder to take advantage of.

I don't think the scrolls ever auto-heightened. I understood it to be the spells lower on the list were available to select as the Pathfinder level rose and the item level rose.

However, I don't understand why that changed. If I'm a level 10 druid and the only healer, sent on a mission not involving (or expecting to involve) extraplanar creatures, I can't select Heal 5. I either take the max Heal scroll I can, Heal 3, 5 levels lower than I qualify for, or take the offensive Cone of Cold. Why force this choice?