Lots of things about range
Well, we may disagree, it's not really important. My point was that comparing anything to Fighter Archer will make anything look good, the same way comparing any martial to Greatsword Fighter makes it look bad.
So I was proposing a build that is more solid in terms of damage output.
Now, is the Kineticist a short range or long range blaster, our opinions seem to differ. But it's not important to the point I was making.
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If you're just looking at the kineticist's baseline attack you should be comparing with a equal number of feats used. You could spend most of 20 levels ignoring the class feats and still get a 5d6 medium range or 5d8 short range attack that can be boosted with a second action add Con damage and avoid MAP and can be used in melee with a Strength mod damage bonus on.
You have spent class feats. You will be forced ro pick a handful of freebies and have to put effort into avoiding junctions that benefit your blast. You will also get Base Kinesis and Extract Elements for free. You'll get Reflow, Double Reflow, and Final Gate to maximize those freebies.
Lots of things about rangeWell, we may disagree, it's not really important. My point was that comparing anything to Fighter Archer will make anything look good, the same way comparing any martial to Greatsword Fighter makes it look bad.
So I was proposing a build that is more solid in terms of damage output.
Now, is the Kineticist a short range or long range blaster, our opinions seem to differ. But it's not important to the point I was making.
I just don't want to make a very complex comparison, it's a lot of work.
I just wanted to point out that you can't compare a kineticist to a melee martial.
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I'm not sure how one can compare a Kineticist to anything else without bringing up their feats -- even when you don't factor in their standard feat progression, the Kineticist gets six impulse feats as part of their core class progression, and those are an essential component to how they function. A Kineticist isn't going to just go around spamming EB, they'll be putting those impulses to use and often using EB more as a backup or as a bit of supplemental damage when using Channel Elements after an overflow action. If the Fighter got six feats they could freely swap out each day instead of the two they currently get, the class would likely not be allowed to have the raw power it does at the moment.
I also think comparisons on raw power to casters or martials can only go so far: the Kineticist isn't a spellcaster, so I don't think they can be expected to blast as hard when they can blast at-will, but the Kineticist also isn't a martial, and I don't think can be expected to have the same amount of at-will damage as classes that are far less versatile. Not only that, but a lot of ways in which the Kin shines have nothing to do with damage -- they can spec into solid healing, for instance, and often find themselves becoming incredibly tanky. The Kineticist can become a blaster, and quite a solid one at that, but they can also just not blast at all and become a dedicated tank, a healer, a combination of the two, or more if they incorporate things like the mobility of Air, the crowd control of Earth and Water, or the assorted utility of Metal. It's difficult to make reliable apples-to-apples comparisons with specific classes, particularly martials, when the Kineticist can give themselves an entire fruit basket.
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[Fire] Kineticist doesn't really have an obvious comparison point because it's a resourceless AoE damage dealer.
I guess you could compare it to a magus spellstriking with expansive spellstrike and an AoE focus spell or something, or a draconic sorc with 3 focus points spamming dragon breath. But both those classes have other stuff going on (spellslots in both cases, martial attack proficiency for the magus) that make it a truly artificial comparison.
Ignoring kineticist feats when calculating damage would make about as much sense as calculating a caster's DPR with a crossbow.
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I mean one thing that's unique about the Kineticist in its dependence on feats compared to other classes is that it's also the only class where a significant portion of your class features give you feats. You get two 1st level impulses from your Kinetic Gate and an extra impulse from Gate's Threshold at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th- you're fully seven class feats ahead of some other classes by the time you get that last Gate since not every class gets a first level class feat (though you do.)
[Fire]
Ignoring kineticist feats when calculating damage would make about as much sense as calculating a caster's DPR with a crossbow.
Is anyone doing that?
Is anyone doing that?[Fire]
Ignoring kineticist feats when calculating damage would make about as much sense as calculating a caster's DPR with a crossbow.
There was talk about how Barbarian is 60% effective without feats.
There was talk about how Barbarian is 60% effective without feats.Is anyone doing that?[Fire]
Ignoring kineticist feats when calculating damage would make about as much sense as calculating a caster's DPR with a crossbow.
Yeah i Said that tò explain why, from a design standpoint, a bad feat Is not equal If It's a barbarian's or a kineticist's.
A kineticist relies completely on feats, and as such a bad feat has a higher impact on the whole class. Damage wasn't the point.
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There was talk about how Barbarian is 60% effective without feats.Is anyone doing that?[Fire]
Ignoring kineticist feats when calculating damage would make about as much sense as calculating a caster's DPR with a crossbow.
Yeah i Said that tò explain why, from a design standpoint, a bad feat Is not equal If It's a barbarian's or a kineticist's.
A kineticist relies completely on feats, and as such a bad feat has a higher impact on the whole class. Damage wasn't the point.
Okay, so the same way that bad weapons affect martials and bad spells affect casters?
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[Fire] Kineticist doesn't really have an obvious comparison point because it's a resourceless AoE damage dealer.
I guess you could compare it to a magus spellstriking with expansive spellstrike and an AoE focus spell or something, or a draconic sorc with 3 focus points spamming dragon breath. But both those classes have other stuff going on (spellslots in both cases, martial attack proficiency for the magus) that make it a truly artificial comparison.
If I were to make a decent comparison, I would have to do a DPR calculator for an entire adventure between the characters. Because they would have advantages and disadvantages in different situations. And even then it would be biased because there would be times when someone would prefer to debuff, other times someone would prefer to heal, and so on.
For example, the magus has very few spellslots. And normally the focus spells that are used on him are single target or have an AoE limited to the target's point of origin. So it would not be comparable to a fire kineticist and the various AoE impulses he has that he spends the whole day casting, while the magus can only use 4 per day.
Anyway, I repeat the point I made, the OP user said that outside of melee, the kineticist's damage has left something to be desired. I think he's disregarding that fighting at range in PF2e (at least more than what a thrown weapon range and even a thrown weapon normally loses at least one property rune to place the returning rune) or disregarding that when he affects more than one creature normally the damage he caused is multiplied for each of them, even if at first glance it takes little away, if you consider that the martial artist will have to kill 1 by 1, that already makes a big difference, especially if you hit 3 enemies or more.
Ignoring kineticist feats when calculating damage would make about as much sense as calculating a caster's DPR with a crossbow.
No one has done this, I made a simple comparison using the damage of a standard level 1 AoE damage feat from most impulses + EB. I just didn't want to go looking for specific impulses from higher levels, nor did I go looking for archetypes and feats to improve the fighter's damage.
Well, as I said, of all the possible comparisons, there is no comparison in melee. Single target melee is the martial realm, even a caster of the final ranks has difficulty comparing with that.
In addition, comparing with casters is also difficult, because due to the scarcity of resources, focus and spellslot spells are calculated on the basis of 2d6 per rank or more, while impulses are on the basis of 1d8. But the caster has a resource limit, the kineticist does not.
That's why I consider that if you want to make a more reasonable comparison it would be with a ranged martial, even because the chassis is more similar to that of the kineticist than that of the caster.
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In practice, my earth/water kin who is specialized in *tanking* keeps ending up taking out the most targets in the PFS games I play in. Being able to seamlessly switch between ranged and melee, single and double action, and change damage types, plus weapon infusion being amazing, has a lot of tactical benefit.
Okay, so the same way that bad weapons affect martials and bad spells affect casters?
Kinda? Bad weapons don't really affect martials, It's sad but most of the weapons are there because paizo needs and exscuse to print out stuff. Barely a fifth of the weapons ever serd actual play.
I would Say It's more akin to spells but in reverse.
There are thousands of spells and most of them are useless, but since there are thousands of them you still end up with about a hundred great choices and then random stuff you can pick up with scrolls.
There are less than a hundred kineticist feats, and most of them are not bad, but since you're limited to Just 17 (no scrolls for you) every feat "slot" matters A LOT! Therefore every slightly subpar/situationally cool but useless feat gets swiftly swept under the rug.
If you wanted to translate that to casters i'd Say: hypotetically prepared casters disappear, scrolls/wands/staves disappear and you can only know 15 spells. Then everyone would naturally only pick the best of the best
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I do think there's a valid point to make that when your feats are essentially your weapons, one bad feat has a proportionately higher impact than one bad weapon, given that there are 110 impulse feats at this time of writing and over 300 weapons. On the flipside, I don't think there are so many bad feats among the Kineticist's impulses that the class is forced to take bad impulses, even when committing to a single-element build. Some synergies are definitely worth acknowledging and including depending on the playstyle you're going for, but thankfully I think it's difficult to build a Kineticist in such a way that they'll be awful all around.
I just don't want to make a very complex comparison, it's a lot of work.I just wanted to point out that you can't compare a kineticist to a melee martial.
For me, the proper comparison is with the Inventor. The Inventor has high AoE damage and good melee damage. It outdamages a Kineticist (outside extremely optimized builds) in both ranged/AoE and melee damage.
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I think the broad situation is that, because kin is self-contained it has fewer opportunities to shore up build gaps outside of its own features, while having a huge and obvious potential design space which makes it more pronounced than, say, Investigator.
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There was talk about how Barbarian is 60% effective without feats.Is anyone doing that?[Fire]
Ignoring kineticist feats when calculating damage would make about as much sense as calculating a caster's DPR with a crossbow.
Yeah i Said that tò explain why, from a design standpoint, a bad feat Is not equal If It's a barbarian's or a kineticist's.
A kineticist relies completely on feats, and as such a bad feat has a higher impact on the whole class. Damage wasn't the point.
I don't quite agree with this, because since the kineticist heightens everything, even low-level impulses becomes very useful until the end-game.
For example, to sustain Thermal Nimbus, the fire kineticist is practically forbidden from using overflow impulses, especially the 3-action one or when he needs to walk. This gives Flying Flame a huge boost, because it ends up being the only 1d8 fire impulse for 2/lvl that isn't overflow, so it's excellent for those who want to keep Thermal Nimbus working.
This doesn't happen with a level 1 caster, for example. You don't use a rank 1 spell until the end of the game, because it doesn't heightens well enough, and ends up being obsolete and forgotten along with the other rank 1 spellslots. Even focus spells rarely remain that useful for that long, often being replaced by more efficient spellslot spells or even other focus spells.
With that right off the bat I don't stay in a situation without a good impulse, considering that I also like to pick up earth/metal/wood to improve my defenses in parallel, that doesn't really happen (but even without that I listed a huge list of good impulses to have if you want to make only fire, I just don't recommend it because fire kineticists have less defensive power by design and because fire is so focused on offense, that sometimes you miss more utilitarian impulses. I can't see even a supposed bad feat having such a significant impact on the class. Honestly, it would even be hard to make a bad kineticist.
I just wanted to point out that you can't compare a kineticist to a melee martial.Well, you can lol. It just isn't a normal build. But go Con/Str, Armor in Earth, Weapon infusion, Athletics...at low levels you EB for 1a 1d8+3 melee or 2a 1d8+7. You have built-in reach and trip options, and it's all 1-H so you can also use a shield. That's a decent melee starting point. Oh and if you went single element Earth, your 2a attack buffs your AC +1. Tanky tanky.
Pick up air for Desert Wind, two element infusion, bump your Str to 4 when you can and at L10 your 1a single target melee damage is 3d8+10, plus ongoing concealment from those pesky archers. At L20, it's at 5d8+20. Now it's a shame you can't add to your attack with runes like a real martial, but hey, that's not bad for a class that really isn't supposed to melee martial.
Yes indeed, thanks for the correction, it is possible to even make a kineticist focused on melee. This is not the case of the OP's complaint. :P
For me, the proper comparison is with the Inventor. The Inventor has high AoE damage and good melee damage. It outdamages a Kineticist (outside extremely optimized builds) in both ranged/AoE and melee damage.
I just don't want to make a very complex comparison, it's a lot of work.I just wanted to point out that you can't compare a kineticist to a melee martial.
Sorry SB. I know you really like the inventor. But I don't think he's even close to being comparable to the kineticist!
He basically has 2 unstable AoEs, which OK, do good damage compared to impulses, can (and should in my opinion) be transferred to the companion for better positioning and use of the inventor's action economy, and Gigavolt allows you to control the AoE very well. But that's about it.
The class DC progression is slower and limited to master, which limits the success (in this case the enemies failure) of unstable AoEs especially at high levels (I really wish the inventor had legendary progression on the class DC, but unfortunately Paizo's designers disagree with me) and are limited to 2, maybe 3, with a lot of luck 4 uses per combat depending on the dice. He doesn't use the key attribute for the Strikes that he would make in parallel with the AoE and companion Strikes, which at times leaves him behind in success progression, most of the Innovations are questionable at best. And the feats, which are interesting, end up looking like a band-aid for all this that can't be done.
The inventor should be the steampunk version of the kineticist, but in practice, due to the designers' fear of making a technology-based class too effective, he ended up being relegated to a strange corner among the classes.
Second, scrolls for you! Kinetic Activation. Albeit not as utility as access to any of the four spell lists, if a kineticist really wants access to some scrolls, there is a way. Probably far more useful for the kin who plans on dipping into many different elements over the kin who sticks with just one or two.
Exactly, it is more limited in terms of utility, but a kineticist of the 6 elements has access to this entire list here in terms of scrolls, wands and staffs. I admit that due to the way the kineticist progresses through get access to new elements, this access can be somewhat complicated. But it exists, and you can even reach legendary with it.
List of available spells for kineticists via scrolls/wands/staves (hum... Shock to the System via Scroll for air kineticists... interesting).
In fact, it does something very interesting. It casts spell attack rolls with the item bonus from the Gate Attenuator.
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An interesting quirk of the Kineticist using a more limited number of at-will feats rather than a larger number of limited spells for their magic is that this kind of design space tends to leave less room for the hyper-niche spells you'd find on many traditions. There are for sure some niche impulses, but you're not going to be pulling some ultra-specific spell out of your back pocket for a huge number of occasions in the same way as a full caster, even with Kinetic Activation. This isn't inherently a bad thing, though as an aside it does mean that if more casters end up following the Kineticist's model in a future edition, characters overall would probably need a separate pool for choosing niche, out-of-combat abilities to gain that wouldn't compete for space with their combat-ready actions.
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Huh? Shortbow is 60', longbow is 100'. Many blasts do 60' to start with and weapon infusion - a 'must' for any kineticist planning to make heavy use of EB - extends the range of all EBs out to 100'.
Also, every element except Wood gets, by L6, at least one damaging impulse that has a range of at least 60'.
Shortbow range increment is 60 and Longbow 100. Even if I agree you won't get to the tenth range increment, it still is more than 60 max.
And Weapon Infusion doesn't solve the situation as EB is the least damaging of your Impulses by a large margin.Beyond 60ft. the Kineticist loses much of its firepower. And beyond 30ft. it meets issues (a lot of the 60ft+ Impulses having the Overflow Trait). I don't consider the Kineticist to be a long range attacker like a Bow Fighter can be. Now, I agree it's... rather useless in most cases as fights happen at short range in general.
You can gain 60 to 100 feet range with blast and propulsion with Weapon Infusion with a free action.
I do agree a lot of their non-blast low level attacks are pretty short range.
Their level 8 to 12 AOE blast is usually 60 to 120 feet.
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There was talk about how Barbarian is 60% effective without feats.Is anyone doing that?[Fire]
Ignoring kineticist feats when calculating damage would make about as much sense as calculating a caster's DPR with a crossbow.
Feats are part of the kineticist class features and they get them at a good rate other than class feats. So you could maybe remove class feats to try a comparison, but removing feats they get from class features would not be a fair comparison.
An interesting quirk of the Kineticist using a more limited number of at-will feats rather than a larger number of limited spells for their magic is that this kind of design space tends to leave less room for the hyper-niche spells you'd find on many traditions. There are for sure some niche impulses, but you're not going to be pulling some ultra-specific spell out of your back pocket for a huge number of occasions in the same way as a full caster, even with Kinetic Activation. This isn't inherently a bad thing, though as an aside it does mean that if more casters end up following the Kineticist's model in a future edition, characters overall would probably need a separate pool for choosing niche, out-of-combat abilities to gain that wouldn't compete for space with their combat-ready actions.
Id enjoy niche spells finding their way to the skill feat equivalent bucket in a future edition. They could limit it to however many times a day and put class tags on them; martials could get bespoke abilities in that bucket too. Itd be an opportunity to prune some of the stuff that didn't really need to be cordoned off from the skill checks themselves as well.
I will absolutely still push quite hard for Paizo to actually buff/fix the ~20% ish existing impulses/junctions that are crap, because this is not like a spellcaster where you can just publish more options to "fix" things.
It absolutely is possible to publish more impulses and I dearly wish Paizo would just get on with it. :)
The class DC progression is slower
6 levels at minus 2 but the Inventor Unstable actions are not magical and as such circumvent the rather classical status bonus to saves against magic and other resistances against magic (Golems, Will o' Wisps). So it's nearly as good as the Kineticist, they are in the same ballpark. And being able to fight a Will o' Wisp is actually a massive asset.
He basically has 2 unstable AoEs
1, no need to be nice with the Inventor. But their impact is vastly higher than the Kineticist ones. They're better than Overflow Impulses, both in damage and in areas. And at high level, you get a second one.
There's no point in casting tons of AoE effects as enemies will quickly drop. Past the very first rounds, you have to switch to single target damage for maximum effectiveness.He doesn't use the key attribute for the Strikes
Which would be relevant if we were comparing the Inventor to a martial. But compared to the Kineticist, the Inventor is significantly better in single target damage output thanks to its martial abilities.
For me, both classes are extremely close in role. I personally consider the Inventor a superior Kineticist (but I must admit the Kineticist uselessness outside combat impacts my judment a lot).
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Well, fire certainly is the best for straight DPR. The air/earth build, L10, using EB + Lightning Dash averages 33 single target damage (3d8+6 then 4d12+6, using your "50% average + 5% double" formula). But it's got far more survival/defensive value. You're not stuck standing up close to a boss, it also lets you reposition yourself 40 feet straight line + (half move any direction) feet away, and prevents reactive strike while it does it. As well as keeping you in constant concealment.
Wait, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, but I totally agree with you. I was just expanding on your answer and confirming that a kineticist can be very competitive against a martial.
Fire deals more damage, air has more utility - that's as should be ^^
Fire deals more damage, air has more utility - that's as should be ^^
What are you talking about? Fire let's us stay warm, cook our food, run our vehicles, light our homes, reduce trash, and a thousand other things.
Air just kind of...does nothing...other than keeping us alive, I guess.
Clearly, fire should be considered the utilitarian element and air should be the life-giving vital element.
;P
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What are you talking about? Fire let's us stay warm, cook our food, run our vehicles, light our homes, reduce trash, and a thousand other things.
Air just kind of...does nothing...other than keeping us alive, I guess.
Clearly, fire should be considered the utilitarian element and air should be the life-giving vital element.
;P
"Air is fascinating. If we removed air from the sky, all the birds would fall to the ground… And the planes too…
At the same time, you can't touch air… It exists and doesn't exist… It nourishes humans without them being hungry… It's magic…
Air is beautiful, yet you can't see it. It's soft, yet you can't touch it…
Air is a bit like my brain…"
- Jean-Claude Van Damme.
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The class DC progression is slower6 levels at minus 2 but the Inventor Unstable actions are not magical and as such circumvent the rather classical status bonus to saves against magic and other resistances against magic (Golems, Will o' Wisps). So it's nearly as good as the Kineticist, they are in the same ballpark. And being able to fight a Will o' Wisp is actually a massive asset.
He basically has 2 unstable AoEs1, no need to be nice with the Inventor. But their impact is vastly higher than the Kineticist ones. They're better than Overflow Impulses, both in damage and in areas. And at high level, you get a second one.
There's no point in casting tons of AoE effects as enemies will quickly drop. Past the very first rounds, you have to switch to single target damage for maximum effectiveness.He doesn't use the key attribute for the StrikesWhich would be relevant if we were comparing the Inventor to a martial. But compared to the Kineticist, the Inventor is significantly better in single target damage output thanks to its martial abilities.
For me, both classes are extremely close in role. I personally consider the Inventor a superior Kineticist (but I must admit the Kineticist uselessness outside combat impacts my judgment a lot).
The Kineticist is not useless outside of combat!
Mine has significantly contributed in skill challenges and chases with his Athletics, Nature, and Survival!He could have been even more helpful, but when we were looking at books. my stingy GM wouldn't let me use Tree Lore! I mean, come on! Books are made out of trees!!
It absolutely is possible to publish more impulses and I dearly wish Paizo would just get on with it. :)
For whatever reason, Paizo is sort of allergic to print more class specific options for most of the lifespan of PF2. Back in PF1 we would have a new sorcerer bloodline every other month in APs and player companions, but now I think they've added like 4 in non-rulebook sources. There's a great many things that could use more feats for them (most uncommon ancestries are pretty limited here) and they just don't print them.
I assume the reason for this is that they'd rather print a player option that appeals to more classes than just one, so they'd rather do archetypes than class feats, but still there's a bunch of classes I'd like to see more stuff for.
It absolutely is possible to publish more impulses and I dearly wish Paizo would just get on with it. :)For whatever reason, Paizo is sort of allergic to print more class specific options for most of the lifespan of PF2. Back in PF1 we would have a new sorcerer bloodline every other month in APs and player companions, but now I think they've added like 4 in non-rulebook sources. There's a great many things that could use more feats for them (most uncommon ancestries are pretty limited here) and they just don't print them.
I assume the reason for this is that they'd rather print a player option that appeals to more classes than just one, so they'd rather do archetypes than class feats, but still there's a bunch of classes I'd like to see more stuff for.
No Kineticist feat in Tian Xian Character Guide was questionable though...
The Kineticist is not useless outside of combat!
Mine has significantly contributed in skill challenges and chases with his Athletics, Nature, and Survival!
He could have been even more helpful, but when we were looking at books. my stingy GM wouldn't let me use Tree Lore! I mean, come on! Books are made out of trees!!
It's the worst class in terms of skills and outside skills it doesn't have much outside mobility enhancers. From my experience, a couple Kineticists in a PFS party and you're doomed to fail most skill challenges. Experience will differ from table to table and how the GM handle skills, so useless is an overstatement. But it's not far from the proper adjective to describe the Kineticist outside combat.
It genuinely wouldn't have been a bad idea to give Kineticists two skills and/or auto-progress from their skill junction, since like "resistance then immunity to cold and fire" versus "+1-3 to Intimidation" is hardly a choice.
Like the basic problem with the Kineticist and skills is "CON has no skills" but you've got nature + 3 other skills, and you have reason to pump Dex and Wis and one other stat of your choice.
I think they were kind of afraid of all the various out-of-combat problems the Kineticist could easily solve in PF1 by being creative (dig a trench, make a bridge, create steps, levitate the thing, etc.) that they went easy on basic kinesis, specifically the bulk limit. A high level earth Kineticist should be able to move boulders around, not struggle to move fist-sized rocks.
No Kineticist feat in Tian Xian Character Guide was questionable though...It absolutely is possible to publish more impulses and I dearly wish Paizo would just get on with it. :)For whatever reason, Paizo is sort of allergic to print more class specific options for most of the lifespan of PF2. Back in PF1 we would have a new sorcerer bloodline every other month in APs and player companions, but now I think they've added like 4 in non-rulebook sources. There's a great many things that could use more feats for them (most uncommon ancestries are pretty limited here) and they just don't print them.
I assume the reason for this is that they'd rather print a player option that appeals to more classes than just one, so they'd rather do archetypes than class feats, but still there's a bunch of classes I'd like to see more stuff for.
Paizo adds content to random.
The Alchemist gained feats in Knights of Lastwall, Tian Xia Character Guide, Legends, and the AP books Punks in a Powderkeg (Outlaws of Alkenstar), Against the Scarlet Triad (Age of Ashes), The Apocalypse Prophet (Extinction Curse), Broken Promises (Age of Ashes), and King of the Mountain (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix).
The Barbaro gained the Bloodrager Instinct instincts in War of Immortals and the Elemental Instinct in Rage of Elements and extra feats in Rage of Elements, Howl of the Wild, PFS Guide, Knights of Lastwall, Tian Xia Character Guide and APs Punks in a Powderkeg (Outlaws of Alkenstar).
The Bard gained the Zoophonia muse in Howl of the Wild and extra features in Howl of the Wild, Knights of Lastwall, Absalom, City of Lost Omens*, Impossible Lands, Firebrands, the HQ Wake the Dead and APs Tomorrow Must Burn (Age of Ashes), King of the Mountain (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix), The Apocalypse Prophet (Extinction Curse) and Broken Promises (Age of Ashes).
The Champion gained feats in Knights of Lastwall, Character Guide, Gods & Magic Divine Mysteries, Absalom, City of Lost Omens*, Dark Archive and in the APs Broken Promises (Age of Ashes), The Apocalypse Prophet (Extinction Curse) and King of the Mountain (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix).
The Cleric won feats in Gods & Magic Divine Mysteries, Knights of Lastwall, Absalom, City of Lost Omens*, Book of the Dead, and in the APs Fires of the Haunted City (Age of Ashes), Broken Promises (Age of Ashes), The Apocalypse Prophet (Extinction Curse) and King of the Mountain (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix).
The Druid gained orders in Secrets of Magic and feats in Secrets of Magic, Howl of the Wild, Dark Archive, Absalom, City of Lost Omens*, Tian Xia Character Guide and in the APs Broken Promises (Age of Ashes), The Apocalypse Prophet (Extinction Curse) and King of the Mountain (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix).
The Fighter gained feats in Knights of Lastwall, Character Guide, PFS Guide, War of Immortals, Firebrands and in the APs Punks in a Powderkeg (Outlaws of Alkenstar), The Apocalypse Prophet (Extinction Curse) and King of the Mountain (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix).
The Gunslinguer gained a way in Impossible Lands and feats in Impossible Lands and Firebrands.
The Inventor only gained new feats in the Tian Xia Character Guide.
The Investigator gained feats in Impossible Lands, in the comic Wake the Dead and in the AP King of the Mountain (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix).
The Magus gained the hybrid studies Aloof Firmament in the Tian Xia Character Guide and Unfurling Brocade also in the Tian Xia Character Guide and the feats in the Tian Xia Character Guide and Irezoko Tattoo.
The Monk won feats in PFS Guide, Secrets of Magic, Tian Xia Character Guide, Absalom, City of Lost Omens*, Gods & Magic Divine Mysteries, in the HQ Wake the Dead and in APs Ready? Fight! (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix), Despair on Danger Island (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix), Broken Promises (Age of Ashes), The Apocalypse Prophet (Extinction Curse) and King of the Mountain (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix).
The oracle gained feats in Absalom, City of Lost Omens*, Knights of Lastwall, Dark Archive, Book of the Dead, the HQ Wake the Dead and the AP King of the Mountain (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix).
The psychic won feats in Absalom, City of Lost Omens*
The Ranger gained a Hunter's Edge in War of Immortals and feats in Knights of Lastwall, PFS Guide, Impossible Lands, War of Immortals, Howl of the Wild, Tian Xia Character Guide, Dark Archive, Firebrands, in addition to the Kingmaker Companion Guide and the APs Broken Promises (Age of Ashes), The Apocalypse Prophet (Extinction Curse) and King of the Mountain (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix).
The Rogue won a racket in War of Immortals and features in PFS Guide, Firebrands, War of Immortals, Impossible Lands and in APs All or Nothing (Agents of Edgewatch), Against the Scarlet Triad (Age of Ashes), Broken Promises (Age of Ashes), The Apocalypse Prophet (Extinction Curse) and King of the Mountain (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix).
The Sorcerer gained bloodlines in the Stolen Fate Player's Guide (AP players' guide), in the AP King of the Mountain (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix) and in The Mwangi Expanse which was Wyrmblessed but this was merged with the draconic bloodline in the remaster and feats in Gods & Magic Divine Mysteries, Absalom, City of Lost Omens*, Knights of Lastwall, Firebrands, in the comic Wake the Dead and in the APs Broken Promises (Age of Ashes), The Apocalypse Prophet (Extinction Curse) and King of the Mountain (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix).
The Summoner has gained Eidolons in Rage of Elements and Book of the Dead, and feats in Absalom, City of Lost Omens*, and Tian Xia Character Guide.
The Swashbuckler has gained feats in PFS Guide, Firebrands, Impossible Lands, Legends, Knights of Lastwall, and AP King of the Mountain (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix).
The Witch gained lessons in Howl of the Wild, Dark Archive, Legends and in the AP Kindled Magic (Strength of Thousands) as well as patrons in Legends, Howl of the Wild, Monsters of Myth and Dark Archive, but except for those in Howl of the Wild the rest are incompatible with the remaster, and feats in Howl of the Wild, Absalom, City of Lost Omens*, Knights of Lastwall, Firebrands, in the comic Wake the Dead and in the APs Despair on Danger Island (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix) and in the AP King of the Mountain (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix).
The Wizard gained feats in Absalom, City of Lost Omens*, Book of the Dead (but these are incompatible with the remaster), Knights of Lastwall, Firebrands, in the comic Wake the Dead and in the APs Ready? Fight! (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix), The Apocalypse Prophet (Extinction Curse) and King of the Mountain (Fists of the Ruby Phoenix).
* Absalom, City of Lost Omens actually only gives the Irezoko Tattoo feat, which is valid for all classes that have focus magic, even those that haven't come yet.
The Animist and the Exemplar didn't receive any extra content because there was still enough time since release, and the Kineticist, Thaumaturge and Psychic classes haven't received anything yet (except for the Irezoko Tattoo because it's valid going forward, so the Psychic has access to it).
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...since like "resistance then immunity to cold and fire" versus "+1-3 to Intimidation" is hardly a choice.
You would think that, but tbh, I've had intimidate come up way more often for my fire kin/FA bard in Ruby Phoenix than the resistances have.
It's also easier to get fire resist with gold than it is to get a status bonus to a skill with gold, so there's that.
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It's the worst class in terms of skills and outside skills it doesn't have much outside mobility enhancers. From my experience, a couple Kineticists in a PFS party and you're doomed to fail most skill challenges. Experience will differ from table to table and how the GM handle skills, so useless is an overstatement. But it's not far from the proper adjective to describe the Kineticist outside combat.The Kineticist is not useless outside of combat!
Mine has significantly contributed in skill challenges and chases with his Athletics, Nature, and Survival!
He could have been even more helpful, but when we were looking at books. my stingy GM wouldn't let me use Tree Lore! I mean, come on! Books are made out of trees!!
Kineticist is my poster child for the class that should absolutely take Untrained Improvisation at Level 3.
I've actually seen Kineticists be quite useful in skill challenges in PFS *if* they are able to leverage their Basic Kinesis into an auto-success. (I once played three straight scenarios where the skill challenge was "putting out a fire" for instance, and our Fire Kineticist was MVP. Also a lot of the impediments in Chases can involve Wood or Earth.) Even if you don't allow auto-successes in those situations (which you should, because relevant Spells are generally granted auto-success) if you can argue for your Kinesis you can often argue for changing the check to a Nature check.
Kineticist is my poster child for the class that should absolutely take Untrained Improvisation at Level 3.
I've actually seen Kineticists be quite useful in skill challenges in PFS *if* they are able to leverage their Basic Kinesis into an auto-success. (I once played three straight scenarios where the skill challenge was "putting out a fire" for instance, and our Fire Kineticist was MVP. Also a lot of the impediments in Chases can involve Wood or Earth.) Even if you don't allow auto-successes in those situations (which you should, because relevant Spells are generally granted auto-success) if you can argue for your Kinesis you can often argue for changing the check to a Nature check.
Your GM was really nice, as base kinesis will never put out a fire nor any chase impediment. It only affects an item of a few bulks at most (and at rather high level, at low level you snuff out a candle). I've never seen Base Kinesis being of any use but I've seen countless times where the player wanted to use it before I reminded them that it only affects a target the size of their fist.
It's the worst class in terms of skills and outside skills it doesn't have much outside mobility enhancers. From my experience, a couple Kineticists in a PFS party and you're doomed to fail most skill challenges. Experience will differ from table to table and how the GM handle skills, so useless is an overstatement. But it's not far from the proper adjective to describe the Kineticist outside combat.The Kineticist is not useless outside of combat!
Mine has significantly contributed in skill challenges and chases with his Athletics, Nature, and Survival!
He could have been even more helpful, but when we were looking at books. my stingy GM wouldn't let me use Tree Lore! I mean, come on! Books are made out of trees!!
This happens for two reasons. First, because most kineticist players don't like to invest in skills. But Skin Junction exists, but no one wants to sacrifice a junction to get it.
The fighter and the barbarian aren't much better in skills than a kineticist, because their key attribute is strength, and strength only works with athletics. An earth and water kineticist with skill junction gets the missing bonus for this attribute. The problem is that almost no one wants to do this, even those who make kineticists with STR to fight melee.
In addition, the kineticist has a good amount of utility or movement boosts that can be used outside of combat. OK, none of them are mental, being almost always useful only physically, but I go back to the point of the barbarian and the fighter, talking and being intelligent is not their strong point either.
It genuinely wouldn't have been a bad idea to give Kineticists two skills and/or auto-progress from their skill junction, since like "resistance then immunity to cold and fire" versus "+1-3 to Intimidation" is hardly a choice.
Like the basic problem with the Kineticist and skills is "CON has no skills" but you've got nature + 3 other skills, and you have reason to pump Dex and Wis and one other stat of your choice.
I think they were kind of afraid of all the various out-of-combat problems the Kineticist could easily solve in PF1 by being creative (dig a trench, make a bridge, create steps, levitate the thing, etc.) that they went easy on basic kinesis, specifically the bulk limit. A high level earth Kineticist should be able to move boulders around, not struggle to move fist-sized rocks.
For me, if they had simply put 2 skills in the skill junction instead of one skill plus a skill feat fix, it would have been much more interesting and attractive.
For example:
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Your GM was really nice, as base kinesis will never put out a fire nor any chase impediment. It only affects an item of a few bulks at most (and at rather high level, at low level you snuff out a candle). I've never seen Base Kinesis being of any use but I've seen countless times where the player wanted to use it before I reminded them that it only affects a target the size of their fist.Kineticist is my poster child for the class that should absolutely take Untrained Improvisation at Level 3.
I've actually seen Kineticists be quite useful in skill challenges in PFS *if* they are able to leverage their Basic Kinesis into an auto-success. (I once played three straight scenarios where the skill challenge was "putting out a fire" for instance, and our Fire Kineticist was MVP. Also a lot of the impediments in Chases can involve Wood or Earth.) Even if you don't allow auto-successes in those situations (which you should, because relevant Spells are generally granted auto-success) if you can argue for your Kinesis you can often argue for changing the check to a Nature check.
To be fair, I have a hard time saying flame has any "bulk." It's just weightless energy. It's pretty vague. It's not the kind of thing bulk is designed to evaluate.
Even if the amount you can manipulate is limited, as well, it's a rate question. You can put out a large fire with small buckets if the fire is spreading slowly. The kin can also put out a larger fire as long as it isn't spreading faster than they can snuff out individual parts.
In general, I also think being a stickler about what kineticist can use Base Kinesis for makes it into a ribbon ability in a system that usually avoids ribbon abilities. It just makes the kin feel bad for no reason, makes them feel like they have toys instead of actual powers.
I go back to the point of the barbarian and the fighter, talking and being intelligent is not their strong point either.
Fighters have one attribute they can choose (after Str/Dex, Con and Wis) and as such can be charismatic or intelligent (or wise). Barbarians have more issue, I agree, but they only need Strength and can still have high Wisdom for example. So, while I agree a Fighter or a Barbarian can be built without skills, it's not a necessity.
A Kineticist, on the other hand, has no choice but to raise Constitution and will have to go for Strength or Dexterity (for armor purposes). So you are far worse than a Fighter at skills and still behind a Barbarian.And also, most of your out of combat abilities are mobility enhancers which are also the main skills under Strength and Dexterity...
To be fair, I have a hard time saying flame has any "bulk." It's just weightless energy. It's pretty vague. It's not the kind of thing bulk is designed to evaluate.
Still, I think we can evaluate what a "light bulk flame" is, and it's not a fire.
In general, I also think being a stickler about what kineticist can use Base Kinesis for makes it into a ribbon ability in a system that usually avoids ribbon abilities. It just makes the kin feel bad for no reason, makes them feel like they have toys instead of actual powers.
Don't tell me, tell the developpers. But I agree this ability is near useless because of the ridiculous bulk limit.
...since like "resistance then immunity to cold and fire" versus "+1-3 to Intimidation" is hardly a choice.You would think that, but tbh, I've had intimidate come up way more often for my fire kin/FA bard in Ruby Phoenix than the resistances have.
It's also easier to get fire resist with gold than it is to get a status bonus to a skill with gold, so there's that.
Exactly, we as players tend to train much more in combat, because besides being the main mechanical focus of the system, it is the part that usually decides whether our character will stay alive (although some skills often decide this too). But in practice, we check skills much more than a specific resistance. This is just not valued.
I'm tired of seeing my players in situations where they could have avoided combat or had a big disadvantage in combat because they had not invested more and better in skills.
But I've also seen them try to solve skill problems with magic, but it was less frequent because their magic's attention also is often focused on combat as well.
Your GM was really nice, as base kinesis will never put out a fire nor any chase impediment. It only affects an item of a few bulks at most (and at rather high level, at low level you snuff out a candle). I've never seen Base Kinesis being of any use but I've seen countless times where the player wanted to use it before I reminded them that it only affects a target the size of their fist.Kineticist is my poster child for the class that should absolutely take Untrained Improvisation at Level 3.
I've actually seen Kineticists be quite useful in skill challenges in PFS *if* they are able to leverage their Basic Kinesis into an auto-success. (I once played three straight scenarios where the skill challenge was "putting out a fire" for instance, and our Fire Kineticist was MVP. Also a lot of the impediments in Chases can involve Wood or Earth.) Even if you don't allow auto-successes in those situations (which you should, because relevant Spells are generally granted auto-success) if you can argue for your Kinesis you can often argue for changing the check to a Nature check.
I agree but if they used an offensive fire impulse to put fire or one of their many walls (including Architect of Flame) for chase situation the things would be way more acceptable.
I go back to the point of the barbarian and the fighter, talking and being intelligent is not their strong point either.Fighters have one attribute they can choose (after Str/Dex, Con and Wis) and as such can be charismatic or intelligent (or wise). Barbarians have more issue, I agree, but they only need Strength and can still have high Wisdom for example. So, while I agree a Fighter or a Barbarian can be built without skills, it's not a necessity.
A Kineticist, on the other hand, has no choice but to raise Constitution and will have to go for Strength or Dexterity (for armor purposes). So you are far worse than a Fighter at skills and still behind a Barbarian.And also, most of your out of combat abilities are mobility enhancers which are also the main skills under Strength and Dexterity...
Sorry, but I can't see the difference.
Many kineticists opt for armored elements like earth, metal, and wood, which saves them from having to invest heavily in dexterity. Just as many barbarians invest in dexterity as a second attribute because of their reflexes and to be good at acrobatics, stealth, or even crafting and thievery.
A kineticist who wants to invest in charisma, wisdom, or intelligence would be in the same situation as these martial. The difference is that a kineticist player doesn't like to use RK or Demoralize in combat because of the already compromised action economy. But outside of combat, there are many kineticists who have invested in wisdom to improve their will and in Nature, Medicine, and Survival because of this atribute.
It absolutely is possible to publish more impulses and I dearly wish Paizo would just get on with it. :)For whatever reason, Paizo is sort of allergic to print more class specific options for most of the lifespan of PF2. Back in PF1 we would have a new sorcerer bloodline every other month in APs and player companions, but now I think they've added like 4 in non-rulebook sources. There's a great many things that could use more feats for them (most uncommon ancestries are pretty limited here) and they just don't print them.
I assume the reason for this is that they'd rather print a player option that appeals to more classes than just one, so they'd rather do archetypes than class feats, but still there's a bunch of classes I'd like to see more stuff for.
Well, I can only hope that they'll do a big book of specific class options one day. It'd be more interesting to me to have broader way to build the many classes already out than to get more and more base classes, since we will be almost at 30 of them once this year is over. IMO, they should slow down a bit with that and focus more on broadening options for what already exists.
I agree but if they used an offensive fire impulse to put fire or one of their many walls (including Architect of Flame) for chase situation the things would be way more acceptable.
We are speaking of putting out a fire, not putting things on fire. And a wall doesn't help you to run faster. But when it comes to mobility, you have other things to use anyway.
Many kineticists opt for armored elements like earth, metal, and wood, which saves them from having to invest heavily in dexterity.
At high level, I agree that you can raise a fourth attribute. But at low level, you'll need high Con and either high Str or high Dex so you won't have much in anything else without impacting directly your combat abilities.
Which is not the case for the Fighter. For the Barbarian, I agree it's more complicated but you still don't have the high Con requirement so you can start with a 16 in Wis, for example.
Personally I hope we get more impulses soon. With kineticists sharing a lot of issues casters have, it can feel a little poopy when casters get more toys in the form of spells with nearly every book (in addition to other features on occasion). Kineticists also don't interact a ton with items (personally I love that) so even books that come with new weapons for martials don't help kineticists either.