Explode and Gigavolt are AoEs, but what about Searing Restoration? Megaton/Gigaton Strike? Electrify Armor? Deep Freeze?
Deep Freeze is also an AoE effect. And Explode is baseline, it's no feat.
I personally don't consider Searing Restoration, Megaton/Gigaton Strike and Electrify Armor the same way I consider Explode, Mega/Gigavolt and Deep Freeze. All Inventors will have an AoE ability with at least Explode when the other Unstable actions are optional. And there are 3 AoE Unstable Actions when the others are all covering a very different situation. So for me, having an AoE ability is baseline for the Inventor. The other Unstable actions allow you to expand your choice but are not meant to replace your core AoE ability.
Without it you're just plain worse in the damage department than everyone else
It asks for a test. I'm not sure you'll really outdamage an Inventor with a Swashbuckler, Thaumaturge or non-Thief/Ruffian Rogue. Unfortunately, the test has too many moving parts so I don't think we'll get any valid result.
My point that I still kept is that the class is weak, clunky and conceptually strange to what its proposes. Making it a subpar class.
Well, we will have to agree to disagree :)
I agree with the clunky but I really think something can be done with the Inventor that is on par with other classes. Unfortunately, as it's clunky, there are certainly much more ways to make something useless out of the Inventor. That's the issue with clunky, you can see the half full glass (something can be done with proper building and playing) or the half empty glass (without high system mastery you'll certainly get nowhere).| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Someone said they can use Advanced Weapons as the base for their Weapon Innovation, but don't get the initial modification.You can apparently start with a Level 0 Advanced Weapon (so, no Barricade Buster) as your Innovation, but if you do then you do not get an initial modification.
I have no skin in the game with inventors- never played one, not really interested, etc.
The idea of picking the already anemic "you get a weapon with an additional trait" option and instead getting NO additional traits is so strange, it loops around to being funny to me.
Sure, I get it, advanced weapons have more traits, we need to be balanced, yada yada. But it's so funny to have an option where you just basically don't have a subclass for the entirety of low level play.
BEHOLD! My masterwork! My ultimate example of my genius! My greatest invention: a weapon that already exists, but now no one else can use!
I like to imagine you essentially did something like 40k Orks: you've made an object that functions like something that already exists, but in such a roundabout and perplexing way that nobody else knows how in the nine hells you're supposed to operate it.
My main hope for inventor was an option to somehow make their innovation (not construct) into a precious material, but it seems like that didn't happen. Precious materials can be so important for an item, and for a class that revolves around said item, it feels silly to me that they don't interact with precious materials at all.
Edit - and I don't think the modification for precious materials really counts, in my eyes anyway. It only counts for weakness, takes up a mod slot that anyone could pay money for, doesn't get extra effects of the precious material, and doesn't increase the HP/hardness of the item.
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The AC buffs to armor innovation are kind of cool tbh, but given that construct innovation was already a joke and weapon innovation has some really negligible early benefits it kind of seems like it just makes armor the obviously correct choice unless there's something really specific you want to do (like entangling on a reach weapon is kind of neat).
I mean I guess you can sentinel dedication to get +6 armor too but that's a whole extra set of investment and I'm not really sure what you're getting on the other end.
The AC buffs to armor innovation are kind of cool tbh, but given that construct innovation was already a joke and weapon innovation has some really negligible early benefits it kind of seems like it just makes armor the obviously correct choice unless there's something really specific you want to do (like entangling on a reach weapon is kind of neat).
I mean I guess you can sentinel dedication to get +6 armor too but that's a whole extra set of investment and I'm not really sure what you're getting on the other end.
What's really weird is that the changes to Armor make it excellent as a dip for anyone willing to sacrifice a Class feat for Inventor Dedication. After all, you're getting Heavy armor numbers on a Medium or Light chassis, which is a good investment, and you can later pick up Speed Boosters or one of the resistance modifications later on.
Though I've read elsewhere that the dedication has a requirement of Int +3, so if that's true that will severely curtail taking it.
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The AC buffs to armor innovation are kind of cool tbh, but given that construct innovation was already a joke and weapon innovation has some really negligible early benefits it kind of seems like it just makes armor the obviously correct choice unless there's something really specific you want to do (like entangling on a reach weapon is kind of neat).
I mean I guess you can sentinel dedication to get +6 armor too but that's a whole extra set of investment and I'm not really sure what you're getting on the other end.
What's really weird is that the changes to Armor make it excellent as a dip for anyone willing to sacrifice a Class feat for Inventor Dedication. After all, you're getting Heavy armor numbers on a Medium or Light chassis, which is a good investment, and you can later pick up Speed Boosters or one of the resistance modifications later on.
Though I've read elsewhere that the dedication has a requirement of Int +3, so if that's true that will severely curtail taking it.
If it does require a +3 Int, it's a good choice for an Ancient Elf Magus, at least. Not a terrible choice for Wizards or Witches, either.
Or you can simple get an Kineticist Dedication and Armor in Earth (this explains why the AC improvement in remaster).
About the +3 requirements probably is just a mistake. Makes no sense once that none MC archetypes requires more than a +2.
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The AC buffs to armor innovation are kind of cool tbh, but given that construct innovation was already a joke and weapon innovation has some really negligible early benefits it kind of seems like it just makes armor the obviously correct choice unless there's something really specific you want to do (like entangling on a reach weapon is kind of neat).
I mean I guess you can sentinel dedication to get +6 armor too but that's a whole extra set of investment and I'm not really sure what you're getting on the other end.
Construct Innovation is not that much of a joke. Its main asset is to position your AoEs without having to pay for the movement. So there's definitely a point in choosing it. Besides that, I agree that it's quite weak.
It's Weapon Innovation that has always been the weakest as it's useless before very high level (or if you choose a ranged Innovation, there are a few ok thing at level 7).
Armor Innovation on the other hand is now really solid, I fully agree. Especially the light one.
After all, you're getting Heavy armor numbers on a Medium or Light chassis
I just chime in to remind everyone that the Armor Innovation is a Medium Armor. So while the light one is closer to a Light Armor in terms of Strength Requirement, it still asks you for Medium Armor proficiency. So it's not that easy to use for Int-based casters, you'll need a couple of Armor Proficiencies on top of Inventor Dedication. So maybe for Alchemist... With the feat to increase Crafting up to Legendary, it becomes extremely appealing.
Construct Innovation is not that much of a joke. Its main asset is positioning your AoEs without having to pay for the movement. So there's definitely an asset in choosing it. Besides that, I agree that it's quite weak.
Agreed. IMO the main advantage of Construct Innovation is to allow a remote usage of Unstable activities costing one less action. This makes the Construct Innovation worth way more than it appears.
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My point that I still kept is that the class is weak, clunky and conceptually strange to what its proposes. Making it a subpar class.
Well I don’t have enough experience with “weak” but I considered making an Inventor and definitely found it clunky and conceptually strange. There were almost zero options I was interested in across all three Innocation types, and the core mechanics of Overdrive and Unstable seemed…massively clunky.
I should add that I derive a great deal of fulfillment personally from emulating a particular “class fantasy” for each class, so the root “functions well in combat” or “hits appropriate markers” do absolutely nothing for me. The idea that anyone would choose an ancestry to maximise their class, or take a class dedication like Kineticist to shore up their AC is so anathematic to my approach that I am definitely “playing a different way” than others here assessing things like viability and balance or the relative lack thereof.
But for me, Inventors were something I was quite interested in thematically but found lacklustre in the available options and conceptually strange in that it felt like the class concept was first rendered into powder, then rehydrated and poured into a “combat mechanic capacity” alembic. Then stirred, and poured into a the hope a “fun class” came out at the other end. For this individual, it completely failed. No real inventing. Innovations thematically hamstrung by strange core mechanics across the board and topped off with lacklustre and too few options.
The PDF is now available. Still waiting for the pre-master pdf to be updated in my Downloads.
Agreed. IMO the main advantage of Construct Innovation is to allow a remote usage of Unstable activities costing one less action. This makes the Construct Innovation worth way more than it appears.
Also, the Construct Companion benefits from Overdrive and from an extra d6 at level 9 (instead of you, unfortunately, so it's more of a drawback) and level 15 (if you take the Modification). When taking all that into account (with a success to Overdrive), the Construct Companion deals between one third and 63% more damage than a d8 Nimble Animal Companion (with a second specialization at level 16).
Compared to a d12 Dragon Barbarian second attack, the Construct Companion first attack is competitive during most of your career and it really starts to drop at level 16 when you combine Unstable Redundancies and Legendary Crafting, and as such significantly change the Companion role. And I do think a d12 Dragon Barbarian secondary attack at the cost of 1 action (and sometimes even 0 if the Companion starts next to an enemy) is a massive asset.Compared to a Ranged Companion (with Turret activated at level 7+) making 2 attacks (as it doesn't need to move), it's competitive with the same Barbarian secondary attack during your whole career.
Obviously, the Nimble Companion never compares positively against the Barbarian and only gets above 75% of the Barbarian secondary attack damage during its 4 best levels. So from a damage point of view, it's clearly bad.
So even from a very basic damage output point of view, the Construct Companion is not that bad. It's much more of a damage dealer than a Nimble Animal Companion, even if it loses on versatility and AC.
Agreed. IMO the main advantage of Construct Innovation is to allow a remote usage of Unstable activities costing one less action. This makes the Construct Innovation worth way more than it appears.Also, the Construct Companion benefits from Overdrive and from an extra d6 at level 9 (instead of you, unfortunately, so it's more of a drawback) and level 15 (if you take the Modification). When taking all that into account (with a success to Overdrive), the Construct Companion deals between one third and 63% more damage than a d8 Nimble Animal Companion (with a second specialization at level 16).
Compared to a d12 Dragon Barbarian second attack, the Construct Companion first attack is competitive during most of your career and it really starts to drop at level 16 when you combine Unstable Redundancies and Legendary Crafting, and as such significantly change the Companion role. And I do think a d12 Dragon Barbarian secondary attack at the cost of 1 action (and sometimes even 0 if the Companion starts next to an enemy) is a massive asset.
Compared to a Ranged Companion (with Turret activated at level 7+) making 2 attacks (as it doesn't need to move), it's competitive with the same Barbarian secondary attack during your whole career.
Obviously, the Nimble Companion never compares positively against the Barbarian and only gets above 75% of the Barbarian secondary attack damage during its 4 best levels. So from a damage point of view, it's clearly bad.So even from a very basic damage output point of view, the Construct Companion is not that bad. It's much more of a damage dealer than a Nimble Animal Companion, even if it loses on versatility and AC.
I prefer to compare inventors with companion innovation vs precision rangers with its Animal Companion feat that give the same hunter's edge benefit to the companion (a precision ranger with a two-handed weapon giving some extra precision damage + companion with same precision damage is pretty strong combination). It's a comparison that makes more sense to me.
My comparison with barbarian was vs inventors with weapon innovation that sucks IMO.
I prefer to compare inventors with companion innovation vs precision rangers with its Animal Companion feat that give the same hunter's edge benefit to the companion
The Ranger Animal Companion does less than 1% extra damage compared to the Construct Companion when making a single attack but loses on damage when making a second attack (and I won't calculate it :D ). Overall, the Construct is better but I don't think a human can feel the difference. Also, for the Ranger, the feats are higher level so it's more costly to get such a Companion.
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Btw, Pathfinder Nexus has the remastered stuff online already. Be aware that the feats are messed up and show only the old versions. If you type "Remaster" in the search bar above the feats, they will be replaced with the new version.
I haven't looked at items or anything else besides classes and archetypes, but I would assume the same need to filter would apply to them.
Any idea when the premaster PDFs might be updated? Just checked my downloads and they're still showing 2021 as the last updated day.
I would expect that to happen later today. Most likely during paizo's office hours which are still a while off, if I'm not mostaken.
Btw, Pathfinder Nexus has the remastered stuff online already. Be aware that the feats are messed up and show only the old versions. If you type "Remaster" in the search bar above the feats, they will be replaced with the new version.
I haven't looked at items or anything else besides classes and archetypes, but I would assume the same need to filter would apply to them.
Good to know.
I like how Nexus is better to read than AoN (Nexus format is closer to the books format. But for other side AoN is better to search and filter things). Follow the link to those who don't know:https://app.demiplane.com/nexus/pathfinder2e/classes/inventor-rm
I was reading Overdrive and its improvement was minimal. Basically if it fail you get 1 extra damage instead of nothing and if you critically fail you cooldown only 1d4 rounds instead of 1 minute.
It still too meh compared to all other damage improvement abilities that other martials get. 1d4 is way better than 1 minute yet for many encounters if this means that you become half or even the entire combat without Overdrive.
The Power Suit AC bonus to +5 (+1 from dex) is strange but interesting. To compensate Heavy Construction now gets entrench trait.
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I was reading Overdrive and its improvement was minimal. Basically if it fail you get 1 extra damage instead of nothing and if you critically fail you cooldown only 1d4 rounds instead of 1 minute.
It's weird that the 1 damage on a failure is fire damage. If you're fighting something with weakness to fire, failing the check might end up more beneficial than succeeding. Unless you're using the weapon innovation of course.
It still too meh compared to all other damage improvement abilities that other martials get. 1d4 is way better than 1 minute yet for many encounters if this means that you become half or even the entire combat without Overdrive.
Most fights are likely decided before that cooldown is done, so this is a very minor buff. I also disagree that Overdrive is meh, but that's another discussion altogether.
I was reading Overdrive and its improvement was minimal. Basically if it fail you get 1 extra damage instead of nothing and if you critically fail you cooldown only 1d4 rounds instead of 1 minute.It's weird that the 1 damage on a failure is fire damage. If you're fighting something with weakness to fire, failing the check might end up more beneficial than succeeding. Unless you're using the weapon innovation of course.
Yep, it's a significant buff if your GM uses the Liminal rules of downgrading a success to a failure. Against enemies with a weakness to Fire it's really useful (and weakness to Fire is rather common, hello trolls).
Any new Firearms in the book?
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Many basic weapon innovations got some improvements.
Blunt Shot now gives concussive and ranged trip instead of nonlethal and versatile B. It's an improvement once that concussive is obviously better than versatile B, lose nonlethal could be an additional difficult when you are trying to not kill the target (and your GM is insta kill enemies instead of make then dying) but I honestly like the change once I ranged trip is a bit rare thing and be able to trip at range is always an interesting move.
Complex Simplicity now add razing to the available trait to get.
Dynamic Weighting now gives tethered too if your innovation is a throw weapon.
Entangling Form now gives disarm too.
Hampering Spikes now gives trip too.
Hefty Composition now gives razing too.
Pacification Tools now gives hampering too.
Razor Prongs now gives tearing too.
Breakthrough Modifications just improved only these things:
Rope Shot adding tethered to thrown weapons.
Tangle Line now gives parry.
Revolutionary Weapon Modifications
Attack Refiner switch shove to forceful trait.
Momentum Retainer modification was removed and its place Momentum Enhancer was added. So instead of have a modification that just add forceful and versatile B to melee weapon only, now we have a modification that give agile and if your weapon have reload you can reload once per round as free action (hey this doesn't specify reload 1, just says reload so we can reload a reload 2 or more as free action!?).
Lots of changes for the Weapon Inventor. It's weird no one raised them.
Sadly, nothing for the Construct, even if it benefits indirectly from the evolution of Weapon Modifications thanks to the Advanced Weaponry Breathrough Modification (Ranged Trip is nice to have as it can really piss off a melee enemy, and Tearing is welcome extra damage).
Looks like Reverse Engineer still has impossible requirements for its level. Ah well...
Were there any big changes or added feats for a crossbow-based gunslinger?
Were there any big changes or added feats for a crossbow-based gunslinger?
Changes yes, feats no. The big change is that Gunslinger Singular expertise got changed. Instead of the huge paragraph it was, with the +1 circumstance bonus to damage, it is now:
+2 precision damage on all attacks with NON-REPEATING crossbows
+1d4 precision damage on all attacks with NON-REPEATING firearms.
These bonuses increase to +3/+1d6 at 13th level.
Yep, it's a significant buff if your GM uses the Liminal rules of downgrading a success to a failure. Against enemies with a weakness to Fire it's really useful (and weakness to Fire is rather common, hello trolls).I was reading Overdrive and its improvement was minimal. Basically if it fail you get 1 extra damage instead of nothing and if you critically fail you cooldown only 1d4 rounds instead of 1 minute.It's weird that the 1 damage on a failure is fire damage. If you're fighting something with weakness to fire, failing the check might end up more beneficial than succeeding. Unless you're using the weapon innovation of course.
But SuperBidi, trolls are weak to electricity now, not fire!
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But SuperBidi, trolls are weak to electricity now, not fire!Yep, it's a significant buff if your GM uses the Liminal rules of downgrading a success to a failure. Against enemies with a weakness to Fire it's really useful (and weakness to Fire is rather common, hello trolls).I was reading Overdrive and its improvement was minimal. Basically if it fail you get 1 extra damage instead of nothing and if you critically fail you cooldown only 1d4 rounds instead of 1 minute.It's weird that the 1 damage on a failure is fire damage. If you're fighting something with weakness to fire, failing the check might end up more beneficial than succeeding. Unless you're using the weapon innovation of course.
But do the trolls know that?
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Trolls are weak to fire and electricity, actually. It's the acid weakness that was replaced.
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The PDF is now available for people who have the pre-master pdf. At least it showed up in my downloads. Be aware that it's not marked as "remaster". Look for a Guns and Gears copy that was last updated on December 4th.
They forgot to do a ctrl+f with the terms! :P
Okay so if there are no new Firearms what of this list is new tne?
Two new classes: the clever inventor and the sharpshooting gunslinger, updated to work perfectly with the Remastered Pathfinder Second Edition rules
The remastered automaton ancestry for players who want to play a customizable construct - Are these good?
Firearms of all stripes, from the simple and effective flintlock pistol to versatile gunblades - I was expecting new stuff because of the rest of the list.
Dozens of new archetypes - Please tell me there are actually New Archetypes
Scores of new gadgets and vehicles - Not my thing but nice.
Siege engines and accompanying rules - Pardon, didn't this already exist just a Remastering of this?
A gazetteer of Golarion revealing how firearms and technology fit into the Age of Lost Omens, including a look at the technology of the continents of Arcadia and Tian Xia and never-before-revealed secrets of the rough-and-tumble, gritty city of Alkenstar - LORE!?
Okay so if there are no new Firearms what of this list is new tne?
Two new classes: the clever inventor and the sharpshooting gunslinger, updated to work perfectly with the Remastered Pathfinder Second Edition rules
The remastered automaton ancestry for players who want to play a customizable construct - Are these good?
Firearms of all stripes, from the simple and effective flintlock pistol to versatile gunblades - I was expecting new stuff because of the rest of the list.
Dozens of new archetypes - Please tell me there are actually New Archetypes
Scores of new gadgets and vehicles - Not my thing but nice.
Siege engines and accompanying rules - Pardon, didn't this already exist just a Remastering of this?
A gazetteer of Golarion revealing how firearms and technology fit into the Age of Lost Omens, including a look at the technology of the continents of Arcadia and Tian Xia and never-before-revealed secrets of the rough-and-tumble, gritty city of Alkenstar - LORE!?
All of that is the old product description for Guns & Gears. The book didn't add anything, it only Remastered old content.
Think of it more like an errata pass, rather than a new book with new content, because that's all it really is.
Wait does that mean no Remasterd Automaton Ancestry even? Dang it, I was hoping. I don't have a copy to check in the PDF but thanks.
Wait does that mean no Remasterd Automaton Ancestry even? Dang it, I was hoping. I don't have a copy to check in the PDF but thanks.
It's in the book, so it likely got Remastered.
I couldn't tell you if that means anything in the ancestry actually changed though (I'm at work and won't be able to easily view the PDF myself for a couple more hours) or if the developers chose to leave it largely as is.
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Wait does that mean no Remasterd Automaton Ancestry even? Dang it, I was hoping. I don't have a copy to check in the PDF but thanks.
They have remastered the existing automaton rules, much like how PC1 remastered humans. There are few new additions, they've just taken what was in guns and gears one, rebalanced some of it, and changed wording that was removed in the remaster. If it was in the first printing of guns and gears, it's here in some form.
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Wait does that mean no Remasterd Automaton Ancestry even? Dang it, I was hoping. I don't have a copy to check in the PDF but thanks.
At a glance, at least their Reinforced Chassis feat has been upgraded. It no longer requires armor proficiency and gives you a +3 AC bonus with a +1 Dex cap at level 1. Scales to +4 armor at level 5 and +5 armor at level 1. A high level monk will have amazing AC with that.
The remaster stuff is also online on Pathfinder Nexus. You can check the Automatons here.
I think the free positioning that construct provides may be gone? Unless I'm not reading this properly;
If you have a minion
innovation, some unstable actions are taken by the minion
instead of you. In these cases, only the minion can take that
action, and the minion needs to have been Commanded
that turn to take the action. If you critically fail the flat
check, the minion takes the damage instead of you.
To me, it looks like you command you construct and it uses its two actions to explode or what have you.
Wait does that mean no Remasterd Automaton Ancestry even? Dang it, I was hoping. I don't have a copy to check in the PDF but thanks.At a glance, at least their Reinforced Chassis feat has been upgraded. It no longer requires armor proficiency and gives you a +3 AC bonus with a +1 Dex cap at level 1. Scales to +4 armor at level 5 and +5 armor at level 1. A high level monk will have amazing AC with that.
The remaster stuff is also online on Pathfinder Nexus. You can check the Automatons here.
You put the legacy content of AoN. The nexus link is this:
https://app.demiplane.com/nexus/pathfinder2e/ancestries/automaton-rmI think the free positioning that construct provides may be gone? Unless I'm not reading this properly;
If you have a minion
innovation, some unstable actions are taken by the minion
instead of you. In these cases, only the minion can take that
action, and the minion needs to have been Commanded
that turn to take the action. If you critically fail the flat
check, the minion takes the damage instead of you.To me, it looks like you command you construct and it uses its two actions to explode or what have you.
Companion never got a free movement when you command it. It only get a "free-action" when you have an Advanced Construct Companion feat but only when not commanded like most Mature Companion feat does.
The PDF is now available for people who have the pre-master pdf. At least it showed up in my downloads. Be aware that it's not marked as "remaster". Look for a Guns and Gears copy that was last updated on December 4th.
Hmm, I have a non-updated one dated to December 3rd 2024.
I just received an email from Paizo saying my PDF had been updated. I did not have the Remaster version prior (I checked).
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Have you downloaded it to check the contents? The name of the book didn't change for me in my downloads, but the content is different when I open and read the PDF.The PDF is now available for people who have the pre-master pdf. At least it showed up in my downloads. Be aware that it's not marked as "remaster". Look for a Guns and Gears copy that was last updated on December 4th.Hmm, I have a non-updated one dated to December 3rd 2024.
I had confirmed it to be the old version at time of posting, but happily it appears to be fixed/caught up now with the correct file.