|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The fact arcane sorcerers lost the spellbook saddens me. It was pretty much the only reason I picked arcane haha.Arcane Evolution is gone? So they nerfed the sorcerer to make the wizard more attractive. Heh.
If Arcane Evolution wasn't reprinted, it should still exist as a legal option by default. If it returned but was changed...then yeah, you're right. I don't know what actually happened with it but I don't think I've heard of any of the evolution feats getting changed....
Not gone, it just doesn't have the spell book anymore and got some slight changes to go with that loss.
As far as I can tell you can one action Sure Strike, one action Ancestral Memories, and one action Quicken Spell Spell Combination Disintegrate to roll twice to hit and then reduce their Fort DC by 3.Early on that Ancestral Memory won't do much as -1 is pretty easy to come by, but at 5th level -2 is not as easy and -3 definitely not as easy at 8th level.
This spell would be pretty nice for Spell Combination wizard using mega-disintegrate. Not sure how this interacts as I haven't read the exact text, but it seems to make disintegrate much nicer giving both a bonus to hit and a minus on the saving throw. Doubly effective with disintegrate.
And fells bad when your both dice rolls a lower number and you miss (I saw this happening sometimes) losing 2 spell slots and a focus point! :P
The fact that any caster can poach the Imperial Sorcerer focus spell worries me a lot, I fear it will be everywhere.
It probably will just be the new "Dangerous Sorcery" but more expensive and limited (due the focus point cost and the feat investment that most classes need to improve the pool).
The fact arcane sorcerers lost the spellbook saddens me. It was pretty much the only reason I picked arcane haha.Arcane Evolution is gone? So they nerfed the sorcerer to make the wizard more attractive. Heh.If Arcane Evolution wasn't reprinted, it should still exist as a legal option by default. If it returned but was changed...then yeah, you're right. I don't know what actually happened with it but I don't think I've heard of any of the evolution feats getting changed....Not gone, it just doesn't have the spell book anymore and got some slight changes to go with that loss.
What does that mean exactly? Can you still change a spell daily or what?
Psychic MC finally gets a break.
Psychic MC is more magus/eldritch archer oriented. Outside this sorcerer was the most used for most spell casters due Dangerous Sorcery. Now that Dangerous Sorcerer gone but Ancestral Memory becomes a thing and that Spell DC no more cares about tradition the things probably won't change that much.
The fact arcane sorcerers lost the spellbook saddens me. It was pretty much the only reason I picked arcane haha.Arcane Evolution is gone? So they nerfed the sorcerer to make the wizard more attractive. Heh.
What does that mean exactly? Can you still change a spell daily or what?The fact arcane sorcerers lost the spellbook saddens me. It was pretty much the only reason I picked arcane haha.Arcane Evolution is gone? So they nerfed the sorcerer to make the wizard more attractive. Heh.If Arcane Evolution wasn't reprinted, it should still exist as a legal option by default. If it returned but was changed...then yeah, you're right. I don't know what actually happened with it but I don't think I've heard of any of the evolution feats getting changed....Not gone, it just doesn't have the spell book anymore and got some slight changes to go with that loss.
They just remove the spellbook but you learn new spells and can put/switch into your repertoire in the same way. It's just like you have a spellbook without have a spellbook...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Psychic MC finally gets a break.Psychic MC is more magus/eldritch archer oriented. Outside this sorcerer was the most used for most spell casters due Dangerous Sorcery. Now that Dangerous Sorcerer gone but Ancestral Memory becomes a thing and that Spell DC no more cares about tradition the things probably won't change that much.
The fact arcane sorcerers lost the spellbook saddens me. It was pretty much the only reason I picked arcane haha.Arcane Evolution is gone? So they nerfed the sorcerer to make the wizard more attractive. Heh.They just remove the spellbook but you learn new spells and can put/switch into your repertoire in the same way. It's just like you have a spellbook without have a spellbook...What does that mean exactly? Can you still change a spell daily or what?The fact arcane sorcerers lost the spellbook saddens me. It was pretty much the only reason I picked arcane haha.Arcane Evolution is gone? So they nerfed the sorcerer to make the wizard more attractive. Heh.If Arcane Evolution wasn't reprinted, it should still exist as a legal option by default. If it returned but was changed...then yeah, you're right. I don't know what actually happened with it but I don't think I've heard of any of the evolution feats getting changed....Not gone, it just doesn't have the spell book anymore and got some slight changes to go with that loss.
That sounds like an improvement to me.
Bards have some flavor about accumulate knowledge due the polymath muses. That's why they keep their spellbooks. Sorcerers flavor is more about innate magic.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
They just remove the spellbook but you learn new spells and can put/switch into your repertoire in the same way. It's just like you have a spellbook without have a spellbook... That sounds like an improvement to me.
Unless you're a wizard. Then you're pounding the floor screaming "FML! IT'S NOT FAIR!"
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bards have some flavor about accumulate knowledge due the polymath muses. That's why they keep their spellbooks. Sorcerers flavor is more about innate magic.
And they wouldn't study their magic to understand it better because...?
Sorry, but I really don't see the "I was born with magic, so I have always had instant, complete control over it" doing well.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Regarding prepared casters and wizards I think two change would make them a lot more appealing to the average player.
Prepared casters:
- 10 minutes to swap out a spell becomes standard.
Wizards:
1. You can change any prepared spell to a curriculum spell at will during casting.
2. Non universalist wizards gain a repertoire of 1 spell per rank known and can sponaneously cast all of their curriculum spells via it (all are considered signature for the purpose of heightening). This would be replacing the extra slots.
Power creep has been getting increasingly unreal since Howl of the Wild. Seems like the 1e developer mindset has found its way into the proverbial 2e henhouse.
I do wonder how much has to do with the design lead change from Mark Siefter.
One note, I am kinda disappointed to see that paizo seems to be a bit gun shy when it comes to nerfing things. Synaesthesia for instance stayed the same and while I didn't want it to be bludgeoned into the ground scaling the debuffs on degree of success rather than just duration would have made a big difference.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just looked over the changes in the video, and while they seem good at lower levels (better 1st-level focus spells), they get increasingly disappointing with each level.
The focus on blood magic effects is flavorful and nice, but mechanically a trap. The biggest issue with blood magic was never addressed: Since it only triggers on 10 specific granted spells and requires enemies to fail their saves, most bloodline effects were gimmicks rather than interesting mechanics. Very few had frequently usable spells to trigger it, like Elemental+Fireball or Angelic+Heal.
Now all the bloodlines are even more dependent on those granted bonus spells. And more often than not, these granted bonus spells ("sorcerous gifts") are bad/unusable, especially those with all the non-encounter spells; the Harrow bloodline has 6 non-encounter spells: Augury (10min cast time!), Wanderer's Guide (1min cast time), Retrocognition (1min cast time), Unrelenting Observation (scrying/tracking), and Suggestion (social), True Seeing (out-of-combat buff). Similar with all the other buff spells, like Mystic Armor, Resist Energy, Charm, Vital Beacon, Unfettered Pack, Talking Corpse, False Life, Contingency, Remove Curse, Animal Vision, ... none of those spells are cast during an encounter, yet the only way to trigger encounter-intended blood magic effects. Is a Janni Sorcerer supposed to use Propelling Sorcery when casting Create Food or what's the idea?
You can purchase 2 additional triggering spells at levels 6 and 10 at the cost of a class feat each, in case you have no good way of triggering blood magic. And some 1st-level focus spells were rendered pointless (Angelic Halo, Tentacular Limbs) due to other changes (Sorcerous Potency, no more touch spells).
And as permanent flight seems now a much more frequent ability at level 9 already, hasn't this decreased the value of flight-granting focus spells like Draconic Wings (Angelic Wings, Elemental Motion)? Angelic Wings was really cool back when divine casters didn't get Fly, but now they do.
I wonder how Celestial Brand (Angelic 10th-level focus spell) is reworked, as there is no longer a good alignment and the remaining bonus is equivalent to a 1st-rank Bless. because it seems like the Angelic bloodline gets hit from every angel angle, with all its focus-spells devalued.
For bloodlines stand & fall with their granted spells.
The remastered Draconic & Elemental bloodlines also are weirdly unbalanced between traditions: arcane dragons get the best type of damage, as nobody has resistance/immunity against force; divine gets spirit damage, which is great (only constructs are immune), occult gets mental which is acceptable (every mindless enemy is immune, which is often encountered at low & mid levels), but primal is stuck with fire. Why do primal dragons not get to choose between other types, maybe even physical damage types?
This default to fire seems like some kind of 1e-sickness, when fire was the most often encountered resistance/immunity. But that's not the case anymore, so why no cold/electricity/acid damage? Same thing for the Elemental bloodlines. Paizo seems to throw around powerful electricity spells, from the #1 cantrip Electric Arc to the new Live Wire, but granting this damage type to bloodlines is impossible? I mean the new metallic elemental bloodline would have really been the poster-child for the Live Wire spell, yet got Electric Arc and piercing damage instead???
It just seems like such a pointless letdown not to allow other energy types on draconic/elemental Sorcerers, so you're stuck casting Lightning Bolt to deal additional... piercing damage... sigh...
Divine Sorcerers getting to Step with an action due to that new bloodmagic feat is also... underwhelmingly pointless. Using Nature for Demoralize is next-level pointless for Sorcerers (high CHA anyone?), though I guess a Druid might like that? If anyone even bothers to raise the Nature skill in the first place. Meanwhile Arcane Sorcerers just use Arcana for everything, identifying every tradition (Unified Theory) and Recalling Knowledge on everything as well. Wizards who put all their high INT-granted skill points into getting many knowledge skills to Trained must be raging harder than Amiri on steroids.
Speaking of skills, why did the Fey blood magic get a possible +2 to Performance? That's a pointless skill. Did you guys run out of good ideas??? This looks again like something that works better on non-Sorcerers rather than Sorcerers, in this case Bards. Fey has so many flavorful options, e.g. +2 to Deception? Or some kind of bonus to illusion spells, like "the first creature trying to disbelieve the next illusion you cast gets Misfortune on that roll"? Maybe I just don't see the point in some of those blood magic effects.
Oh, and Greater Crossblooded Evolution sucks so hard, I wouldn't even take it as a 2nd-level feat anymore, let alone an 18th-level one. Automatically heightening the chosen spells to your highest spell-rank, WHY????????
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY???????????????
I get the idea not to allow choosing spells from other traditions, but why do all these spells have to be max-heightened? You can't even grab a 2nd-rank False Life spell without it automatically turning into a 9th-/10th-rank spell? What's the point of that? Now these spells are competing for your 9th-/10th-rank spell-slots. This is absolute GARBAGE and totally POINTLESS for an 18th-level feat, because at level 19 you can just cast WISH (Manifestation) with that spell-slot and have that spell's effect anyway.
This has to get errata'd because it's the most insane thing I've seen in a long time.
And non-encounter spells should seriously be replaced among all the sorcerous gifts.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hey, are you forgetting about grimores? Bard still can have benefit of it, right?
Grimores don't require you to prepare from a literal book, just that you have a mechanism to prepare spells. This was the first thing I checked when I saw they removed the literal book aspect as well.
If you prepare spells (whether from your class features, like a cleric or wizard, or from a special feat or ability, like the Esoteric Polymath bard feat), you can study a grimoire during your daily preparations to enhance one or more of the spells within. Until your next daily preparations, you gain the ability to Activate the grimoire. As you've already absorbed the power from the grimoire during your daily preparations, you can Activate it even if you later lose possession of the book itself. Grimoires' benefits apply only to spells cast via spell slots—not cantrips, focus spells, or innate spells. No one can use more than one grimoire per day, nor can a grimoire be used by more than one person per day.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just looked over the changes in the video, and while they seem good at lower levels (better 1st-level focus spells), they get increasingly disappointing with each level.
The focus on blood magic effects is flavorful and nice, but mechanically a trap. The biggest issue with blood magic was never addressed: Since it only triggers on 10 specific granted spells and requires enemies to fail their saves, most bloodline effects were gimmicks rather than interesting mechanics. Very few had frequently usable spells to trigger it, like Elemental+Fireball or Angelic+Heal.
Now all the bloodlines are even more dependent on those granted bonus spells. And more often than not, these granted bonus spells ("sorcerous gifts") are bad/unusable, especially those with all the non-encounter spells; the Harrow bloodline has 6 non-encounter spells: Augury (10min cast time!), Wanderer's Guide (1min cast time), Retrocognition (1min cast time), Unrelenting Observation (scrying/tracking), and Suggestion (social), True Seeing (out-of-combat buff). Similar with all the other buff spells, like Mystic Armor, Resist Energy, Charm, Vital Beacon, Unfettered Pack, Talking Corpse, False Life, Contingency, Remove Curse, Animal Vision, ... none of those spells are cast during an encounter, yet the only way to trigger encounter-intended blood magic effects. Is a Janni Sorcerer supposed to use Propelling Sorcery when casting Create Food or what's the idea?
You can purchase 2 additional triggering spells at levels 6 and 10 at the cost of a class feat each, in case you have no good way of triggering blood magic. And some 1st-level focus spells were rendered pointless (Angelic Halo, Tentacular Limbs) due to other changes (Sorcerous Potency, no more touch spells).
And as permanent flight seems now a much more frequent ability at level 9 already, hasn't this decreased the value of flight-granting focus spells like Draconic Wings (Angelic Wings, Elemental Motion)? Angelic Wings was really cool back when divine casters didn't get...
So what you're saying is the sorcerer and the wizard get to share the same room meant for classes that don't feel good? So now all the 6 hit point casters now get to suck together? While the 8 hit points casters are still rolling strong?
I guess we'll see if the witch is the new sorcerer with their upgrades.
The sorcerer was good while it lasted.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The focus on blood magic effects is flavorful and nice, but mechanically a trap. The biggest issue with blood magic was never addressed: Since it only triggers on 10 specific granted spells and requires enemies to fail their saves
This is an incorrect understanding of Blood Magic.
You gain a blood magic effect when you cast either a spell granted by your bloodline from a spell slot or a focus spell granted by that bloodline.
I know of no Blood Magic effects which invoke an additional save.
The number of instances where Blood Magic can be evoked by a sorcerer is very high, but it’s not constant.
With the Remaster, the time you can be under a blood magic effect looks have gone up significantly.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Other than the crossblooded change, pretty much every change to the sorcerer is an addition or an outright buff. Nothing else of its power or playstyle has changed in any way as far as I can tell. The new Blood Magic stuff is all in addition to what was already there. You can safely ignore it without hurting your performance in any way.
Now, the "loss" of crossblooded is a shame, but I honestly think having a buffed dangerous Sorcery as a baseline feature and the (in my opinion) pretty powerful new iteration of split shot and energy ward make up for it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The focus on blood magic effects is flavorful and nice, but mechanically a trap. The biggest issue with blood magic was never addressed: Since it only triggers on 10 specific granted spells and requires enemies to fail their saves
This is an incorrect understanding of Blood Magic.
You gain a blood magic effect when you cast either a spell granted by your bloodline from a spell slot or a focus spell granted by that bloodline.
I know of no Blood Magic effects which invoke an additional save.
The number of instances where Blood Magic can be evoked by a sorcerer is very high, but it’s not constant.
With the Remaster, the time you can be under a blood magic effect looks have gone up significantly.
True but there is still a divide in the bloodlines between those that get a good highly useful blood line focus spell and highly useful blood line spells, versus those without. If it is easier to use eg single action, that really helps as well.
The actual blood magic effect itself has a floor in its value as you can take a feat to get a different option.| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Power creep has been getting increasingly unreal since Howl of the Wild. Seems like the 1e developer mindset has found its way into the proverbial 2e henhouse.
I am curious to see some potential developer insight on why Sorcerers needed to get buffed so heavily. In my experience Sorcerers were already one of the strongest casters, with the only real downside being that some bloodlines just had very little going for them. I don’t understand how that leads to Sorcerous Potency being a default (rather than a choice you have to spend if you wanna be a deficated blaster) and Imperial Sorcerers getting a free -2/-3 to enemy Saves at higher levels.
And conversely if Paizo thinks Sprcerers deserved all that, I’m curious why Wizards don’t deserve that?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don’t have the book yet, but it seems like the “yay! Sorcerer buffed!” Crowd are under estimating how much the class needs to be casting specific bloodline spells to use much of their features now. This is a pretty big conceptual change to the class, that might not matter too much to some sorcerers (elemental, maybe?) but is going to matter to a lot of others.
From what folks have been talking about, if you don’t cast bloodline spells at least a couple times an encounter, you end up not getting very much out of your class feats at all.
So like, a blaster elemental sorcerer should play pretty easily, but a fey sorcerer is going to have pretty limited combat options in comparison.
So like, a blaster elemental sorcerer should play pretty easily, but a fey sorcerer is going to have pretty limited combat options in comparison.
Say it ain't so!
(My most active sorcerer character right now is a fey bloodline sorcerer.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Power creep has been getting increasingly unreal since Howl of the Wild. Seems like the 1e developer mindset has found its way into the proverbial 2e henhouse.I am curious to see some potential developer insight on why Sorcerers needed to get buffed so heavily. In my experience Sorcerers were already one of the strongest casters, with the only real downside being that some bloodlines just had very little going for them. I don’t understand how that leads to Sorcerous Potency being a default (rather than a choice you have to spend if you wanna be a deficated blaster) and Imperial Sorcerers getting a free -2/-3 to enemy Saves at higher levels.
And conversely if Paizo thinks Sprcerers deserved all that, I’m curious why Wizards don’t deserve that?
My impression is that there is very little unified vision being applied here, and buffs or lackluster changes have depended more on the passion and personal agenda/interests of the assigned dev. Leeroy Jenkins!!!, but for buffing the rogue and sorcerer.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
From what it seems, while plenty other bloodlines got some good buffs, the Imperial Sorcerer definitely got some special treatment. Now, with that, I'm not really surprised because the Sorcerer is likely supposed to be the iconic spontaneous arcane caster. Sure, it can choose its spell traditions but it is similar to the Witch in this case who is often regarded as more of the iconic prepared occult caster despite choosing spell tradition. And then, imo, spontaneous casting has always favored a repetitive blunt force method of spellcasting whereas prepared leans more into niche utility. Therefore, it would make sense to me why Imperial Sorcerer would be changed from getting some little skill bumps to essentially gaining a PF1 style "heighten spell" effect in the form of a focus spell. So I don't see it as unbalanced in comparison to Wizard, but just leaning more into its role. What makes it come off stronger however is probably that the system is still more combat focused, therefore the Imperial Sorcerer may be more relevant within the encounter mode of play which is more common than where the Wizard may shine more, exploration mode.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am curious to see some potential developer insight on why Sorcerers needed to get buffed so heavily.
Only the imperial arcane sorcerer got buffed heavily (and everyone that archetypes into it). It is just Ancestral Memories. The rest of the changes are minor. Especially when you consider the loss of Crossblood Evolution.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am curious to see some potential developer insight on why Sorcerers needed to get buffed so heavily.Only the imperial arcane sorcerer got buffed heavily (and everyone that archetypes into it). It is just Ancestral Memories. The rest of the changes are minor. Especially when you consider the loss of Crossblood Evolution.
Baseline Sorcererous Potency is by itself a substantial buff, and all the new Blood Magic effects are a great boon to Bloodlines that have good focus spells (like Imperial) or good granted spells, and especially to those that are good at both (like Elemental). Propelling Sorcery, for instance, is really good.
And yeah, losing the old Crossblooded Evolution is a bit of a loss but the new Crossblooded Evolution isn’t bad by any measure. It allows anyone to poach impactful blood magic effects from others, which then becomes even better once you can use multiple blood magic effects.
I have a few sorcerer character, a dragon blooded [gold] dragon disciple, an aasimar angelic blood sorcerer and a psyhic/diabolic blooded tiefling. I am wondering how these blood lines are impacted/ The first 2 are PFS characters.Dragon disciple wasn't reprinted, apparently many of its feats and the kobold dragonish feats moved to the dragonblooded versatile heritage.
Angelic is reportedly one of the least affected sorcerer bloodlines. I think one or two granted spells changed. Their blood magic effect applies to themselves or a target, if that wasn't the way it worked before. I didn't see a second effect added on. A lot of poeple are very down on their first focus spell, becuase now all sorcerers get a free spell rank boost to heals, so it does relatively little on top of that. They're both status bonuses.
That is my understanding as well.
Other than the crossblooded change, pretty much every change to the sorcerer is an addition or an outright buff. Nothing else of its power or playstyle has changed in any way as far as I can tell. The new Blood Magic stuff is all in addition to what was already there. You can safely ignore it without hurting your performance in any way.
Maybe that's because you only compared it to the current situation of half-legacy/half-remaster stuff. But that is just recency bias. Take this example: the Aberrant Sorcerer was originally designed to be a "bad touch" Sorcerer, with its 1st-level focus spell Tentacular Limbs extending the range of touch spells.
Then half of the Remaster hit (GMC/PC1) and almost all touch spells disappeared, making Tentacular Limbs obsolete. That was a situation that should have absolutely been addressed by reworking the Aberrant bloodline in PC2. That this hasn't happened is a straight debuff imho, because that bloodline lost its flavor and mechanics to the Remaster project (not to PC2, but the Remaster as a whole!).
Similarly the Angelic bloodline. They removed the Dangerous Sorcery feat because its effects are now part of the Sorcerer class itself (Sorcerous Potency). Then why hasn't the same thing happened with the Angelic 1st-level focus spell, since that bonus to healing is now also (mostly) part of the Sorcerer class itself? And with flight being easier accessible (through ancestries + Fly spell now on the divine list) the Angelic's 2nd focus spell lost its unique position as well. Hopefully the 3rd focus spell was reworked, because that one was based on alignment... if not, then the bloodline would be seriously shafted.
So if you look at the entirety of the timeline, and compare the Sorcerer from before PC1 to after PC2, you will see these undeserved nerfs in some bloodlines.
This is an incorrect understanding of Blood Magic.
You gain a blood magic effect when you cast either a spell granted by your bloodline from a spell slot or a focus spell granted by that bloodline.
I know of no Blood Magic effects which invoke an additional save.
Blood Magic
Whenever you cast a bloodline spell using Focus Points or a granted spell from your bloodline using a spell slot, you gain a blood magic effect. If the blood magic offers a choice, make it before resolving the spell. The blood magic effect occurs after resolving any checks for the spell's initial effects and, against a foe, applies only if the spell is a successful attack or the foe fails its saving throw. If the spell has an area, you must designate yourself or one target in the area when you cast the spell to be the target of the blood magic effect. All references to spell level refer to the level of the spell you cast.
Bloodmagic triggers only on 9(+2) granted spells, others won't activate it. Then you must designate the target of the bloodmagic when you cast the spell, and then the enemy must fail its save, and only then will you have a bloodmagic effect affect an enemy.
Also, you can't just cast Fireball and have one enemy who failed their save be the target of the bloodmagic effect; no, you have to designate the target first, and if that specific target doesn't fail their save, then you get no bloodmagic; regardless if another non-designated target fails.
all the new Blood Magic effects are a great boon to Bloodlines that have good focus spells (like Imperial) or good granted spells, and especially to those that are good at both (like Elemental).
Yeah, ONLY on those bloodlines. But most bloodlines suffer from an absolutely horrific lack of suitable bloodline spells. No amount of added bloodmagic effect means anything to a bloodline without suitable triggering spells. That's like owning a supersonic aircraft, but not having any fuel.
I am curious to see some potential developer insight on why Sorcerers needed to get buffed so heavily.Only the imperial arcane sorcerer got buffed heavily (and everyone that archetypes into it). It is just Ancestral Memories. The rest of the changes are minor. Especially when you consider the loss of Crossblood Evolution.Baseline Sorcererous Potency is by itself a substantial buff, and all the new Blood Magic effects are a great boon to Bloodlines that have good focus spells (like Imperial) or good granted spells, and especially to those that are good at both (like Elemental). Propelling Sorcery, for instance, is really good.
And yeah, losing the old Crossblooded Evolution is a bit of a loss but the new Crossblooded Evolution isn’t bad by any measure. It allows anyone to poach impactful blood magic effects from others, which then becomes even better once you can use multiple blood magic effects.
Sorcerous Potency saved my life the other day, when it increased the size of our two party sorcerers' Two Action Heal, and Soothe spells just enough, I was taking massive heat from the Hydra's Focused Assault on a Hydra that had too many heads. It's pretty darn sick.
I remember the conversations before the remaster came in on sorcerer bloodlines.
The bloodline effects were just too narrowly focused on going some minor thing that round so it can be ok in combat situations but spells outside of combat have either a difficult time of making use of the effects or no use.
I don’t have the book yet, but it seems like the “yay! Sorcerer buffed!” Crowd are under estimating how much the class needs to be casting specific bloodline spells to use much of their features now. This is a pretty big conceptual change to the class, that might not matter too much to some sorcerers (elemental, maybe?) but is going to matter to a lot of others.
From what folks have been talking about, if you don’t cast bloodline spells at least a couple times an encounter, you end up not getting very much out of your class feats at all.
So like, a blaster elemental sorcerer should play pretty easily, but a fey sorcerer is going to have pretty limited combat options in comparison.
Blood magic has always been the same. You activate using your bloodline spells or your bloodline focus spells. That hasn't changed.
Only real change I've read so far that sucks is the end of Crossblood Evolution giving you another spell.
If I'm being honest with you having ran many sorcerers, blood magic sucks and I never even thought about it when playing a sorcerer. Blood magic in PF1 was amazing. Blood magic in PF2 is rarely useful, too short duration, and too limited with no incentive to build around because it's not that good.
I've played a LOT of sorcerers over the years.
I can count on one hand how many times bloodline effects made any meaningful impact at all.
Can't wait to see the new sorcerer.
I've played a LOT of sorcerers over the years.
I can count on one hand how many times bloodline effects made any meaningful impact at all.
Can't wait to see the new sorcerer.
You're talking PF2 I hope.
Blood magic in PF1 was often amazing. The damage builds you could create using blood magic in PF1 were pretty insane.
I've played a LOT of sorcerers over the years.
I can count on one hand how many times bloodline effects made any meaningful impact at all.
Can't wait to see the new sorcerer.
You're talking PF2 I hope.
Blood magic in PF1 was often amazing. The damage builds you could create using blood magic in PF1 were pretty insane.
Yeah, 2e.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yep. The point about Ancestral Memories is not because it's super overpowerfully strong. But because the designers made a spell saving throw penalty a so rare thing that see it in level 1 focus spell that auto-heightens up to -3 looks like wonderful but if we look closer it competes with things like sustained spells that uses your 3rd action too that keep some potent buff or some 1d6 per round damage like flaming sphere floating flame or a one-action cantrip like ignite of fiery body or a super versatile summon spell that maybe not the best damage usage for your 3rd action but depending from the creature chosen can give many different buffs and helps to flank while gives some extra damage and so on, all these options including maybe more sustainable and stronger than Ancestral Memories in many battle situations but doesn't gives the impact that Ancestral Memories give when it do a spell saving throw.
It's similar to situation of have an attack spell that has a failure effect. It's like the designers was killing some sacred cows the wasn't written but that ever were in PF2 for some reason and now is like the designers is trying to test how the game experience and feedback will work with such thing changes.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Bloodmagic triggers only on 9(+2) granted spells, others won't activate it. Then you must designate the target of the bloodmagic when you cast the spell, and then the enemy must fail its save, and only then will you have a bloodmagic effect affect an enemy.
and focus spells! But the great thing about a spontaneous caster is that those spells that do trigger it are able to be every single spell you cast. Or none at all. Or as the situation requires. Its very dynamic like that.
To your point on saves, I don't think you are parsing this correctly. That language presents a very standard reasonability check on Blood Magic Effects.
If the Effect targets an enemy, that enemy is only effected by the Blood Magic if they would also be affected by the spell that triggers it.
Lets look at the premaster Demonic Blood Magic effect for an example:
Blood Magic: The corruption of sin weakens a target’s defenses or makes you more imposing. Either a target takes a –1 status penalty to AC for 1 round, or you gain a +1 status bonus to Intimidation checks for 1 round.
So, say I cast Disintegrate (a bloodline spell) at a single target. The Blood magic effect triggers and I chose to inflict a penalty to their AC, we then resolve the rest of the spell as normal. If I miss with Disintergrate the blood magic effect also misses them, but if I hit, the are impacted by the blood magic as well. Inflicting the penalty.
If, after casting the spell, I opted for the bonus to intimidate, I get gain that bonus regardless of the spells outcome on its target.
One more thing this feat:
BLOOD RISING [reaction] FEAT 1
Trigger A creature targets you with a spell of the same tradition as your bloodline.
The magic in your blood surges in response to your foe’s spell. You generate a blood magic effect you know ...
Some people are saying this triggers on your own or perhaps your allies spells. There are a half dozen benefical single action and targeting general avaiability cantrips. So this would be a nice boost if it worked.
This is because the targeting line doesn't restrict it to foes even though the text description does.
In these sorts of circumstances I do prefer to go with the full text unless there is strong reason not to. So I'd restrict it to enemies, and therefore it is much less useful. But other GMs are going to differ.
|
|
One more thing this feat:
BLOOD RISING [reaction] FEAT 1
Trigger A creature targets you with a spell of the same tradition as your bloodline.
The magic in your blood surges in response to your foe’s spell. You generate a blood magic effect you know ...Some people are saying this triggers on your own or perhaps your allies spells. There are a half dozen benefical single action and targeting general avaiability cantrips. So this would be a nice boost if it worked.
This is because the targeting line doesn't restrict it to foes even though the text description does.
In these sorts of circumstances I do prefer to go with the full text unless there is strong reason not to. So I'd restrict it to enemies, and therefore it is much less useful. But other GMs are going to differ.
I noticed this as well and I'm dubious that is meant to enable self-activation. Allies might have been intended, but its almost certainly meant to be just enemies, and it feels to good to be true to be able to cast Guidance and trigger Explosion of Power for whatever your max spell rank of d6 is, for 1 action and a reaction.
I am excited to get to use Blood Rising and trigger Propelling Sorcerery at some point though.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
An action + reaction for 1d6/spell rank? It's fine to be honest, specially considering that Casters don't have innate ways to increase reaction count and over the years we now have reaction spells that compete with it, like Brine Dragon Bile, Blood Vendetta, Wooden Double and so on. Also it takes two feats, three if you want to not be in the frontline with Anoint Ally.
One more thing this feat:
BLOOD RISING [reaction] FEAT 1
Trigger A creature targets you with a spell of the same tradition as your bloodline.
The magic in your blood surges in response to your foe’s spell. You generate a blood magic effect you know ...Some people are saying this triggers on your own or perhaps your allies spells. There are a half dozen benefical single action and targeting general avaiability cantrips. So this would be a nice boost if it worked.
This is because the targeting line doesn't restrict it to foes even though the text description does.
In these sorts of circumstances I do prefer to go with the full text unless there is strong reason not to. So I'd restrict it to enemies, and therefore it is much less useful. But other GMs are going to differ.
Honestly, the trigger is surprisingly ambiguous. For instance, per the targeting rules (player core pg 300), creatures in an AOE aren't necessarily "targets", the spell just "affects them indiscriminately". Most effects that are reactions to being targeted either specify being targeted by a physical attack, spell attack and/or effect that requires a saving throw, or separately include "in the area of an effect that requires a saving throw" as part of the trigger as an alternative to being targeted.
This means for most AOE damage spells, you aren't being "targeted" so Blood Rising doesn't work for that, at least by a strict RAW reading, but does work if you cast a spell targeting yourself.
Enemy throws a fireball at you and your party, and you, an Elemental Sorcerer, want to burn the target for some damage? Nope, you're not actually a target. Ally casts heal targeting you? Yup take your +2 bonus to intimidation. Cast a buff cantrip targeting yourself? Yeah you can cause that Explosion of Power.
Based on the flavor of "The magic in your blood surges in response to your foe’s spell." it really feels like the RAW wording runs counter to the intent of the feat. The wacky Anoint Ally + Explosion of Power combo is silly but not broken, but triggering it with Blood Rising by targeting your self is off to me.
Restricting it to enemies would make sense imo, but it really should also explicitly included being in the area of a spell.
I've seen the new feat Propelling Sorcery mentioned a few times, but I wanted to highlight how nicely it combines with single action focus spells.
The Fey Sorcerer also benefits wonderfully, as their Fey Disappearance 1-action focus spell turns them invisible, and then they Step.
Angelic Sorcerers might do so after deploying their Halo, but it's unlikely to be useful, since that's done once at the beginning of an encounter. Same thing for the Aberrant's Tentacular Limbs and the Undead's Undeath's Blessings. The latter can at least use it wonderfully with Drain Life.
It's also very useful for reaction focus spells, as these allow you or your allies to get out of harm's way, with the Genie's Veil or the Psychopomp's Shepherd of Souls. Noteworthy here is that these spells can be used on yourself; sure, it comes at the cost of a focus point, but it's still stepping away from an enemy who just hit you (Genie: or tried to).
For the Elemental Bloodline, Elemental Toss, which was already one of the best focus spells in the game, now lets you move a target 5 feet in any direction on a hit. This can work nicely to set up a two-action AOE to hit one more target.
I absolutely intend to use this on my Fire Sorcerer to push people into my Walls of Fire!
Did the sorcerer get better? This level 18 greater crossblooded evolution just adds the spells to your repertoire without having to change out any of your current spells?
So you basically now with Greater Mental Evolution and Greater Crossblooded evolution can now know up to 45 regular spells, 3 spells from another bloodline and if Arcane one spell from your spellbook. So your repertoire now will have 49 spells known? That's a little crazy.
So, for those who have read it, I'm curious. Does the Remaster move the sorcerer up or down in your favorite classes? Just so you know, I'm not a math player; I play to have fun, so I'm by no means efficient. I enjoy sorcerers, so they've always been near the top for me.
Same , sorcerer is my favourite class in original and still the same in player core 2, fey sorcerer in my mind got a minor buff so still my fav bloodline.
|
|
Have the book now and am finally able to take a proper look.
My first impression is "Is Force Barrage not incredibly funny now?"
Casting multiple 1 action Force Barrage's now can do silly things with Blood magic effects. Propelling Sorcery and Explosion of Power being the standouts.
Imagine a 10th level Sorcerer doing a nova move where they cast a 5th level, 1 action, Force Barrage 3 times in a row - triggering Explosion of Power each time. 9d4 + 9 + 15 + 15d6 to a single in-range target, with 15d6 to everything within 5ft of you.
Very silly, but funny.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My first impression is "Is Force Barrage not incredibly funny now?"
Casting multiple 1 action Force Barrage's now can do silly things with Blood magic effects. Propelling Sorcery and Explosion of Power being the standouts.
While Force Barrage definitely triggers an Imperial Sorcerer's bloodmagic, and you can use the bloodmagic effect on yourself, it's unclear as to whether you can use the bloodmagic effect on your target:
The blood magic effect occurs after
resolving any checks for the spell’s initial effects and, against
a foe, applies only if the spell is a successful attack or the
foe fails its saving throw.
Force Barrage has neither a saving throw, nor an attack roll, it just "automatically hits". Whether this constitutes a "successful attack" is a grey area, but probably not.
On a similar note, a high level Imperial Sorcerer could effectively use the Interweave Dispel spellshape to cast Dispel Magic as a free action, to trigger another bloodmagic effect (though again, not on an enemy), since Dispel Magic is his 2nd-rank granted spell.
The rules on Spellshapes also say that all of their effects become a part of the spell itself, not of the Spellshape action. Thus the ability to cast Dispel Magic as a free action is part of the spell too, which leads to this truly hilarous combo at level 17:
Use Interweave Dispel on Implosion (which replaces Prismatic Sphere as the new 9th-level granted spell), since the spell is technically targeting a single creature. This triggers bloodmagic once (on you) if the enemy succeeds at its save, but twice if the enemy fails (and you can use it once on him) -- just cast a 2nd-rank Dispel Magic on your own Implosion!
After all, a 2nd-rank slot is pretty worthless at level 17+ and even if you crit succeed at your counteract check against your own spell, it cannot dispel Implosion (rank 9). But each of those worthless 2nd-rank Dispel Magic spells triggers bloodmagic on yourself.
Then immediately sustain the Implosion (probably with Effortless Concentration) this turn and on subsequent turns, and whenever an enemy fails their save, you trigger bloodmagic on yourself by casting another Dispel Magic on them.
Ofc you can always use this to free-action cast a useful high-rank Dispel Magic on the current target, if they're buffed or something. But using 2nd-rank slots for free-action bloodmagic boosts on yourself in an encounter where you whip out 9th-rank spells is definitely worth it.
Have the book now and am finally able to take a proper look.
My first impression is "Is Force Barrage not incredibly funny now?"
Casting multiple 1 action Force Barrage's now can do silly things with Blood magic effects. Propelling Sorcery and Explosion of Power being the standouts.
Imagine a 10th level Sorcerer doing a nova move where they cast a 5th level, 1 action, Force Barrage 3 times in a row - triggering Explosion of Power each time. 9d4 + 9 + 15 + 15d6 to a single in-range target, with 15d6 to everything within 5ft of you.
Very silly, but funny.
Why 10th-level? Couldn't you do this as early as 8th?
If I were 10th, and trying to eek out as much damage as I could, I might try out Quicken Spell to make one of those force barrages throw out twice as many missiles.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Am I missing something or does Greater Physical Evolution have an error?
The feat works fine, but it references an extra slot granted by Arcane Evolution. AFAICT Arcane Evolution grants no such extra spell slot.