So what do we like as free archetypes now? Medic for chirgueon, monk for bestial, and familiar master for any field are jumping out at me. Fighter dedication is bad but the reactive strike is good on a bestial build, as are some of the feats. Not sure if the AC penalty and action cost are worth raging for but +4 damage to melee is nice. (I'll assume raging thrower won't apply to bombs.)
Investigator is another stand out to me. Purse a Lead and Clue In stack with the now omnipresent item bonuses out of combat. Also, I noticed they changed the trigger of Clue in from "attempts a check to investigate" to "attempts a check which could help get you closer to answering the question." That would include checks to attack an enemy. Clue Them All In now lets a proper investigator hand the entire party +2 circumstance on strikes as a reaction, yeesh.
DaS also seems great with the action economy improvements to both classes. Free action DaS tells you if you should use a consumable bomb with a good hit rider, or a good crit rider like dread ampoule, or just use a free vial bomb for splash damage. You also have more alternatives to striking at all than the investigator does. Known weakness can also help you target weaknesses and such. This is feeling like my favorite for bomber right now.
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Witch.
We really, really like Witch.
It's a proper non-construct familiar, access to whichever spell list you want, as many familiar abilities as you want, Cauldron, Cackle, and an evergreen Hex or 2 of your choice. True Strike is still great for 3gp a pop when you really don't want that costly bomb to miss. And buffs don't care about DCs.
Don't forget you can get as many free action Draws per combat as you allocate attunement slots thanks to Retrieval Belts, plural. Even if you don't want an item relay familiar, you can still load up a scroll or two you like to cast every combat, and cast them with the same action economy as real spell slots.
I've got my sights locked onto the Blood in the Water hex, which is a genuinely synergistic paring for the Alchemist.
Alchemist can inflict slash splash damage even on miss, and dealing any slashing damage triggers a sustain of the hex for free.
It also kinda sucks, but Gouging Claw (and Electric Arc) will outperform your alch stuff sometimes, and they both have little spellhearts now, but you still need access to spellcasting to use them.
I think a cool down on flurry is fine. You don't need it every round, just the ones you have to set up moves or elixirs. Also I'm unclear if ki strike lets you perform the action without the feat.
Rogue occurred to me as well, especially for the toxicologist. Feels like precision damage shouldn't apply on bombs, but it would apply on agile bestial claws, right?
I'm pretty sure Clue In isn't limited to Perception or skill checks by RAW. Pursue a Lead is, but there are already specific things which expand it beyond that. (Detective Readiness springs to mind.) It's possibly unintended, but it's not like Investigator is that strong even post remaster so I'm inclined to allow it until Paizo indicates otherwise.
Wrestler occured to me, but I wasn't sure how much action/map one could afford on grapple. But I guess there's always combat grab! Kholo can get grapple on their jaws too. Sadly their heritage circumstance bonus to maneuvers doesn't apply to grapples.
Witch seems solid. Cauldron occurred to me as very on brand. Blood in the water is smart. Which bomb deals slashing splash again?
As an aside, I'm not convinced the construct familiar dies at zero HP. Pre-remaster specific familiars like poppets explicitly said that, but the remaster general familiar ability does not. Neither does the construct trait in player core 1 or 2. The death and dying rules mention constructs die at zero HP but also says most NPCs do, but not the companions of PCs. GM core and Monster core traits mention being destroyed at zero HP, but those are GM driven NPCs. I'd at least expect table variance on this. (Also, they never specified how you get familiars back in player core 1. Did player core 2 mention it?)
Fittingly enough, the Blood Bombs, the persistent bleed bombs, are an uncommon that deal slashing splash. If you team already has that, might want Junk instead.
Cauldron gets a lot of value if you're willing to spend gp on crafting things like Oil of Swiftness, but the 1 p day item does scale w/ PC level. Meaning as soon as you hit L8, you get to drink/feed a 1A Haste spell each day as your "fallback" item in case you don't find anything you like more.
Rouge is always a great pick. Proper Quick Draw is huuuuge for Toxicologist, and Tox has a lot of options to inflict Off-Guard as an affliction.
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Regardless if the insta-death for Constructs is still a thing, I'm honestly rather pissed Paizo thought it was a good idea to force the trait onto all alch familiars.
It makes 0 sense for a creature of flesh and blood to be immune to bleeding, healing, etc, and I suspect Paizo genuinely did not think about how many existing familiars will be retroactively rendered illegal due to them being elementals, dragons, plants, etc.
As far as I know, it's also the first time Paizo have forced a familiar trait like that. It's just insane that idea was approved and implemented in a Remaster. Like, Witch knows how stupid it would be for any of the Patrons to force a familiar trait, even though it genuinely could make sense thematically. But you do NOT force those kinds of mechanics onto players, you just encourage/entice them to pick them on their own, such as with the *option* of a free, no-cost trait.
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I mean, if you don't want to be tied to construct, there are tons of ways to get one that isn't. Witch, familiar master, various ancestry feats, various multiclsss feats. I don't really understand the outrage here.
It's also not a creature of flesh and blood. "You have used alchemy to create life, a simple creature formed from alchemical materials, reagents, and a bit of your own blood." A bit of blood, and otherwise alchemical materials and reagents.
Functionally, you aren't gonna waste actions healing a familiar in combat and being a construct lets you quick repair it much faster out of combat. Unless your GM says they are destroyed at zero HP and throws a lot of AoEs at it (because enemies targeting it alone would usually be dumb), the trait is only upsides.
Edit: this also isn't a new flavor choice. The legacy alchemist feat says "You have used alchemy to create life, a simple creature formed from alchemical materials, reagents, and a bit of your own blood. This alchemical familiar appears to be a small creature of flesh and blood, though it might have some unusual or distinguishing aspects depending on your creative process." It only appeared to be of flesh and blood. The only reason it didn't have the construct ability already was that the familiar ability didn't exist before. Anyone who has to redo their existing alchemical familiar just wasn't paying attention before.
So what do we like as free archetypes now?
Why free?
Alchemist has always been excellent with Archetypes: they add a very nice layer of abilities.On mines, I have Fighter Dedication (Titanic Fury Cocktail is still working fine past remaster) and Summoner (with the buff to Bestial Mutagen, my Alchemist's Eidolon is now on par with a real one).
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So what do we like as free archetypes now?Why free?
Alchemist has always been excellent with Archetypes: they add a very nice layer of abilities.
On mines, I have Fighter Dedication (Titanic Fury Cocktail is still working fine past remaster) and Summoner (with the buff to Bestial Mutagen, my Alchemist's Eidolon is now on par with a real one).
Alchemist feats feel pretty important to me. I'd have a hard time justifying skipping them at any level, especially if I'm planning to mix items from multiple research fields. It's a bit like the swashbuckler and the summoner in this regard, or the koneticist. Their mechanics are so self contained that few things outside the class will synergize with them.
Alchemist feats feel pretty important to me. I'd have a hard time justifying skipping them at any level, especially if I'm planning to mix items from multiple research fields. It's a bit like the swashbuckler and the summoner in this regard, or the koneticist. Their mechanics are so self contained that few things outside the class will synergize with them.
Yeah, it honestly used to be that I would struggle to justify taking any Alchemist Feats outside familiar/calc splash/quick bomber and maybe perpetual breadth, though I never got the chance to try the "permanent elixirs + potions" trio.
It's hard to say if the new toys Feats will have lasting appeal, but it's easy to say there has been a clear improvement in that regard. It still seems way harder than it should be to actually get an evergreen Additive.
(It's very weird such a class mechanic only exists if you take Feats, I really thought each RF would get a generic boost Additive with the choice out of the box in the Remaster.)
The rule banning Additives from Vials is bugging me a bit more as I've sat on that, it's a big new crowbar in the works compared to Perpetual items.
Like, it's plainly obvious that one of the original concepts of the Additive system was to buff items as they fell behind in level. Meaning they were *the* chief tool to help the Lvl-6 Perpetuals. But as the replacement 0-cost Q-Vials can't use Additives, there's an entire new dimension of jank as Feats may only help the Q-Vial or may only help crafted items.
Not much of a surprise, but I'm keeping my Chiurgeons far away from all the "medicine" Feats / healing elixir enhancers. Combine Elixirs covers combat needs in a heartbeat, and if I really do feel the need to get yet even more condition removal beyond the alch list, can get a few spell scrolls or a medicine skill Feat.
Those Class Feats are just not compelling when they are stuck exclusive to one-half the Chi's already painful need to Quick Alchemy, have no guarantee of success, and directly compete with all other Class or Archetype Feats.
Additives are now less about enhancing weaker items than enhancing your strongest ones, sometimes through nova. (Combine Elixirs.) It's a much more intuitive approach, IMO. Especially since you don't have to do math on them now. I feel pretty fine with sticky bomb not applying 10 persistent damage to the free vials where you can change their damage type.
Sticky bomb and combine elixirs feel pretty evergreen to me.
So my reading on the familiar item delivery is that it can't feed you elixirs, just allies. Am I right about that? Pretty weird if so.
Alchemist feats feel pretty important to me. I'd have a hard time justifying skipping them at any level, especially if I'm planning to mix items from multiple research fields. It's a bit like the swashbuckler and the summoner in this regard, or the koneticist. Their mechanics are so self contained that few things outside the class will synergize with them.
Alchemists feats are much better, they used to be nearly useless if you were skipping Bombs. Still, you can easily invest in Archetypes once you have taken the really important ones, you're just no more investing all your feats in them.
As a side note, Medic is no more a staple on the Alchemist. You no more need to Treat Wounds for out of combat healing and the Chirurgeon now has excellent forms of in combat healing. On a Chirurgeon, grabbing Cavalier or Beastmaster goes a longer way in improving your healing ability than Doctor's Visitation and it can also serve as low level muscles, when you are at your lowest (as the remaster Alchemist stays really weak during the early levels).
Alchemists feats are much better, they used to be nearly useless if you were skipping Bombs. Still, you can easily invest in Archetypes once you have taken the really important ones, you're just no more investing all your feats in them.
As a side note, Medic is no more a staple on the Alchemist. You no more need to Treat Wounds for out of combat healing and the Chirurgeon now has excellent forms of in combat healing. On a Chirurgeon, grabbing Cavalier or Beastmaster goes a longer way in improving your healing ability than Doctor's Visitation and it can also serve as low level muscles, when you are at your lowest (as the remaster Alchemist stays really weak during the early levels).
I am super tempted to try out something like Beastmaster, but for now I really do not think Chiurgeon has enough VVs to be any sort of combat healer, and am focusing on that.
If you set aside even just 3 VVs for ongoing buffs, a lozenge + a mutagen + a other buff, that'll leave you with 4/7 left.
That's enough for 2 Combine Elixirs for the whole fight. And if you want to Combine Buff turn 1 w/ something like Soothing + Numbing, that's 2 more gone.
I think I'll need Medic's 1 p hour heal just to give my Vials some room to breathe. Honestly not fun to squeeze into the build, and I might just do 1 single Feat for Lesson of Life on this Arch:Witch Alchemist instead, idk.
Honestly, worrying too much about that specific PC without knowing the rest of the party is pointless.
But seeing just how quickly you run out of VVs is... pretty yikes.
You know you have a bunch of daily resources, too. You should not need any form of additionnal healing to be the main party healer.
I think Medic still has appeal for a Chirurgeon. Robust Health is taken by the patient, not the healer for example. And Doctor's Visitation is still a decent Action compression Feat.
I definitely agree that Alchemists are better off investing in Invigorating Elixir and its follow-ups than Treat Condition (if healing is what you want to invest in.)
On the topic of investing in Archetype Feats in general... I do think there's more appealing Alchemist Feats now than there were previously. I've enjoyed the three Martial Artist Feats I took on my Mutagenist, but now I'm wondering if I should drop one to grab Combine Elixirs, which is definitely greatly improved over its original version.
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You know you have a bunch of daily resources, too. You should not need any form of additionnal healing to be the main party healer.
Tell that to the APs that have 5+ fight days.
8 prep items before Int = 5.
1 Antiplague
1 Antidote
1 Darkvision
1 Soothing
3 Elixir of Life
1 Skunk Bomb
That's all my prep. Even with half dedicated to healing items, that's just enough prep healing to make a difference during a single fight day.
But not remotely enough to plan to dip into repeatedly during a multi-fight day.
Instead, those few heals will be used as back-ups only if my VVs + non-Alch healing is not enough for a fight.
And if I budget just a mutagen, lozenge, & injury poison out of my VVs, that's 3/6 gone.
3 remaining VVs for combat.
And if I want to get up-front value and do a Combine buff turn 1 (either on myself or an ally), that's a single VV left.
Yeah, this just unambiguously sucks.
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I don't know what sort of sketch prep you are looking at, but it seems that in order have any amount of budget to use multiple healing elixirs, Chiurgeons must abandon the Alchemist flexibility that's the entire point of the class, abandoning things like injury poisons, mutagens, etc.
Even when doing so, that'll be 1 or 2 more elixirs per fight, so good effing luck being "the main party healer" with only alchemy.
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I was expecting this thread to get busy after the blog yesterday. I was not disappointed. I cannot hope to keep up with all the math you all are throwing around, but I appreciate not letting your emotions get the better of you.
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Tell that to the APs that have 5+ fight days.
5+-fight days are the exception, not the rule.
And with your renewable resources you are not that bad for these long days. It's not as if you'd heal every fight.
And if I budget just a mutagen, lozenge, & injury poison out of my VVs, that's 3/6 gone.3 remaining VVs for combat.
3 out of 7. You either have 2 VVs per 10 minutes or 3 of them and then 7+ VVs (outside level 9, let's not focus on this sole level).
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I was expecting this thread to get busy after the blog yesterday. I was not disappointed. I cannot hope to keep up with all the math you all are throwing around, but I appreciate not letting your emotions get the better of you.
Then the only reasonable course of action is to remove all the nerdiest posts, clearly if they can't be understood then they're surely up to no good!
/s
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Even when doing so, that'll be 1 or 2 more elixirs per fight, so good effing luck being "the main party healer" with only alchemy.
I mean, isn't the benefit for Chirugeons that you can use Craft (INT-based) in place of Medicine (Wis-based) and many parties have their main healer just be "someone who invested in Medicine" which might not even be a Wis class.
So "being the main party healer with only alchemy" seems like an artificial constraint since the game is telling you "also use medicine checks, you are better at this than other alchemists."
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I would think the more encounters per day the better the new system will work. If you are basically getting 6-7 vv's per fight that's a lot of recharging resources. Then you can also throw or give a quick vial to everybody for some healing once ever 10 mins or more if they are below 50% health and have the talent. Combined with their better skill at medicine than other alchemists and their greatly improved condition removal power I think chirugeons look like they are way better set to hold a niche in a group.
On top of that mutagens having lessened negatives and free quick vial bombs means they have better to alchemical attack methods without having to devote much resources to. Add to that their weapon proficiencies finally scale to master means you always have a fall back of actually attacking with weapons/bombs and not feel like your time is better spent handing your stuff off to other party members.
A quick note: the only Mutagen that changed in Player Core 2 is Bestial Mutagen. While it's true that most will consider the new Drawback an improvement (AC penalties are basically universally despised) the new Drawback actually applies to more things (Reflex Saves and two Dex Skills as opposed to just Reflex Saves and AC.)
Where the Remastered Alchemist differs greatly from the original's approach is the ability to do things ahead of Encounters. The Advanced Alchemy pool can create less than half the items of its predecessor, Infused Reagents. At the end of his career, my tenth level Outlaws of Alkenstar Bomber was making 4 Moderate Elixirs of Life, 4 Silvertongue Mutagens, 4 Numbing Tonics, 2 Moderate Life Shot, 4 Quicksilver Mutagens, 9 Moderate Bombs, two Greater Mistform Elixirs and held onto two Batches for use with Quick Alchemy.
Of those items, he would give out 3 of the Elixirs of Life, the Silvertongue, the Life Shot and the Numbing Tonics to his three partners. That was 13 Items, with 12 more kept for himself. This is simply impossible under the current system, where at 10th level the Advanced Alchemy pool tops out at 12 items (Alchemical Familiar, Efficient Alchemy.)
I'll make a quick claim that most Bombers will not be taking Alchemical Familiar due to competition from other Feats.
What I find interesting is how the different Research Fields are likely to approach the different pools in the Remastered system.
All four are likely to devote a good portion of the AA pool to their Mutagens. This will allow Mutagen use to be 1 Action (in hand), free Action (Collar of the Shifting Spider) or no Action (make enough Greater or Major Mutagen to be active for 8 hours a day.) The last one is rather unlikely in the current system but still theoretically possible.
Bombers are going to want to avoid using their Versatile Vials pool outside of combat, because it's the only Resource compatible with Additives. Additives give Bombs their biggest punch, so Bombers are going to be continually weighing the odds of an Encounter going long when considering using Create Consumable for something other than a Bomb. Quick Vials will generally be used for secondary strikes in a round.
Mutagenists are likely to want to use Combine Elixirs to boost themselves quickly with 10 minute duration Quick Alchemy'd Elixirs. Mutagenists will have room to use the "continually dose yourself or others with two or three QA'd Elixirs" technique because generally using up the Versatile Vials in combat will take too much time. Mutagenists are unlikely to use their Quick Vial capability because of the action economy, at least until the L17 Quickened feature comes in.
Chirurgeons will also likely use "continually dose yourself or others with two or three QA'd Elixirs" for similar reasons as Mutagenist, unless they wish to use Bombs a lot (Healing or otherwise.) Chirurgeons may get the most use out of their Quick Vials of any Research Field outside Bombers.
Toxicologists are going to want to have advanced intel on upcoming encounters more than any other Research Field, in order to use Create Consumable to poison their (and others') weapons and ammo in advance of a fight. Toxes are also the most likely to burn through their Advanced Alchemy pool the fastest. Uptake on Quick Vials will probably be limited, as it encourages taking a full round for a single Melee Strike.
8 prep items before Int = 5.
1 Antiplague
1 Antidote
1 Darkvision
1 Soothing
3 Elixir of Life
1 Skunk Bomb
The first 3 of those strike me as exactly the sort of thing quick alchemy is great for. Maybe the fourth as well, but I'm not sure which soothing item you mean. Anything that you MIGHT need need if you encounter the right situation doesn't feel like something to burn advanced on. Poison is relatively common, so I could see justifying that, but it also feels like something you want to use on whoever actually gets poisoned rather than whoever might roll a save against it. (I'll admit having perpetual antidotes for the whole was cool though, and will rightfully be missed.) The last four items are a decent fall back if you run out of versatile viles, but I'm not sure how often that will happen before combat is over. (Legit not sure, not saying it won't happen. It's a small pool but you only have so many actions per round, and even fewer on the rounds that matter.)
Personally I'd focus advanced alchemy on hour+ generically useful things Eagle Eye or Cheetah Elixirs.
I mean, isn't the benefit for Chirugeons that you can use Craft (INT-based) in place of Medicine (Wis-based) and many parties have their main healer just be "someone who invested in Medicine" which might not even be a Wis class.
So "being the main party healer with only alchemy" seems like an artificial constraint since the game is telling you "also use medicine checks, you are better at this than other alchemists."
You're describing a medic, not a healer. Medics do out of combat healing, healers do in combat healing. You need a medic but the Alchemist is now automatically one (and anyway, medics are cheap).
Even when doing so, that'll be 1 or 2 more elixirs per fight, so good effing luck being "the main party healer" with only alchemy.
As a side note, a couple of Heals are what makes a main healer, so the quantity of healing the Chirurgeon brings is enough. The only thing that can prevent it from being a main healer is usability (and it's too early for me to be sure about the usability of the remaster Chirurgeon healing).
You have to use the daily items before the combat that needs them. Spending actions to pull out that contextual +save item is a no-go.
That's why those daily picks are buffs that can last for the entire adventuring day and are for things you genuinely do encounter with regularity, but are too minor for you to tax your VVs.
The VVs are for real action-affecting choices. Biting the Lozenge, Striking with the poison, etc.
One of the biggest troubles with Chiurgeon as a healer is how unevenly your elixirs scale. If you are at a PC level where you must suffer both elixir heals being made to be inferior, and it's just before the next upgrade unlock, it's noticeably rough.
That's honestly why I think I'll go Lesson of Life again. It's just so damn smooth to have a 1A ranged Focus Spell that scales exactly with PC level. It's no burst heal, but the 4 turn duration is a genuine sweet spot for a heal-over-time effect to still fit into short combats.
Also with the quick vials you can dose everybody in your group with one every 10 minutes or more often once you get the talent that lets you do any number of them when the target is under 50%. So your ability to stabilize people actively in a fight you can do all day long. For a lot of fights that is probably all that is needed if somebody really gets smacked that is when you can use the more focused healing elixirs.
Out of combat between the quick vials and medicine they can rapidly top people up.
so for any encounter you are probably bringing 2-3 big healing elixirs and 4+ quick healing vials. That is a solid amount of active healing you can do all day long. Also if you get the feat you can regain up to 3 versatile vials once per day so if stuff is really going sideways there is yet another set of reserves to fall back on.
The FV healing is too small to be worth 2 combat actions, it's a joke to ever use it in combat, even if it's off cooldown.
An R2 Heal scroll, 12gp, will do 2d8+16 compared against the 2d6 FV.
And if that scroll is in a Retrieval Belt, you can keep popping one out every combat at 0 action cost. That's the kind of repeatable backup healing sustain I may need to invest in.
Remember that the FV heal upgrades from 2d6 to 3d6 at level 12.
I was not kidding when I said it's legitimately not OK for Paizo to have used the bomb damage number for the Chiurgeon. Healing doesn't scale like damage.
Thaum's Chalice, which is genuinely 1A thanks to built in Draw avoidance, heals 3x Level right out of the gate, and can sip infinitely to grant 2+Level tHP.
This upgrades later with Features, but anyone with +2 CHA can get that basic Chalice via Dedication.
Think about all the other focus spell type healing, and think about how they scale.
Yeah, literally none of them are static from level 3 to level 11. It's not combat-viable. 99% of the time, you would be hurting your team's chances of survival to spend your actions on that.
I agree the healing is awful, and thought so even when I thought it was possible to do as one action with quick bomber. The only reason to do Chirurgeon is if you're taking the locked feat for the mental effect reroll, going hard for intelligence based medicine, and also want to do other alchemist things rather than be another, better kind of healer (invest some feats in bombing or elixir boosting).
You have to use the daily items before the combat that needs them. Spending actions to pull out that contextual +save item is a no-go.
To an extend, and less so as you level. Retrieval prisms are available as expendable panic buttons at level 3, and belts start at level 7. If you want a panick VV ready, you can manage it. Mid to late game it's not really a problem to have 2-3 free action draws per fight. You mention the belt in the context of scrolls, but they work just fine with alchemical items from your dailies.
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Got my Sub pdf and reading through and one issue that carries forward from before unless I am missing something is that there is no in class way to get more than 2 familiar abilities without taking an archetype like familiar master or Sorcerer. This kinda feels really bad given they added the homunculus specific familiar which is clearly designed for the alchemist who has no in class way to get to the required 6 abilities.
I'm not sure how big a deal that is, given that Familiar Master archetype does exist. With the dedication counting as Enhanced Familiar, it's not like you're wasting feats.
And a Unique ability to have a 1500 ft. Telepathic link with both sides having full access to eachothers knowledge (not sure how usefull this is without an extra ability free to give it speech so that it can relay information for you not only to you.). There are some other things too just don't if I am allowed to share the full text before release.
Well, one thing it does is it lets you use it to play scout in realtime from 1500 feet away. You can discuss where it needs to go and what it needs to do and so forth. Now, you can also buy it the ability to talk, for *those* benefits, but it's by no means useless by itself.
I'm not sure how big a deal that is, given that Familiar Master archetype does exist. With the dedication counting as Enhanced Familiar, it's not like you're wasting feats.
Then why would any class offer the familiar upgrade Feats?
Why would Thaumaturge get access to Enhanced Familiar, but Alchemist be denied it?
With this specific alchemical familiar, they have lost any continued justification. It makes no mechanical sense. The most charitable excuse I've got page space.
Doesn't the Homunculus has a death tax of mental damage to its master?
I think its 2d10,maybe.
By the time you are high enough level to aquire a
homunculus it might not be a significant amout of damage, but Im not sure.
I'd much rather have unique alchemist feats rather than reprinted generic familiar feats that I can grab with an Archetype.
I would assume that "Enhanced Familiar" was cut from the Alchemist basically for space. Same thing with Gorilla Stance and Peafowl Stance not being in the remastered monk- nothing wrong with them, there's just only so much space in a class entry.
Particularly since it's extremely easy to errata or houserule it into the Alchemist.
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Because there aren't great values.
In general alchemist are weaker than other DPR focuses classes like fighters, rogues, barbarians...
Their DPR really shines when you exploit a weakness due how splash damage works. For example a bomber can exploit a Xotanispawn throwing a cold damage bombs that always will hit in every action probably granting a minimum damage of 32 per strike in a failure due splash (making a total of 96 with 3 actions) or even more if you have a Thaumaturge with Share Weakness in your party or are Quickened. But when face a non-weakness creature it will have a lower DPR than other martials.
In higher levels it's pretty common that many creatures have some weakness so it's not a big problem but if it doesn't have you always have the option to throw a skunk bomb or do another debuff or support effect.
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I think any bomber DPR needs to assume sticky bomb and expanded splash, goggles as gear.
But you shouldn’t be winning any DPR comparisons, because you can also hand out mutagens and poisons to the martials, or improve survivability/durability with elixirs. You’re support and also quite good ranged damage and debuff if you invest in it.
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but almost every class can exploit weakness the same way bomber can now
it is not the item variety desert of early 2e anymore
alchemist was underwhelming even when player only have item from core rulebook
Yes and no.
Due property runes is possible to every class to exploit weakness but:
But Alchemists doesn't have any of these restrictions. Bombers basically have a bomb type for every weakness that exists in the game and Quick Alchemy simply allows to a bomber with a large formulas repertoire (what's easily to have with Inventor and Craft Anything feats. You don't need to run around asking your GM to allow you to find someone or scrolls that have the spells that you want to learn like wizards and witches needs to do) also the splash damage works even in a failure what allows them to exploit the weakness in every single action that it uses except in a critical failure. No one is currently better into explore a weakness so efficiently as an alchemist.
I'm not saying that alchemist are super strongest DPR when compared to other dedicated martial/caster DPR but I saw many times alchemists shining when facing a creature with a weakness (and now this is way more easier to do) and exploit a weakness is just an one of many other things that a versatile alchemist can do.
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back when player only have core rule book melee martial can use potion of retaliation once they figure out what weakness enemy have while half of the caster can use shadow blast at level 9
Potion of Retaliation is a very good way to exploit a weakness but it's a "counteraction" one that the enemy gets damage when it hit you. This is a thing that's available to anyone no matter its class and it's independent from your on actions and damage efficiency. Also you need to have a the correct Potion of Retaliation to the right weakness (you don't choose the potion energy type when you drink it but when you craft it). And the most ironic part is that it's one of the most interesting potions to an alchemist get with Improbable Elixirs.
About Shadow Blast I mentioned it when I said "use shadow magic but this magic is also weaker". It's a very versatile 2-action spell but that's weaker than the traditional 2d6 per rank damage and heightens poorly (1d8 per rank). I'm not saying that the spell is completely bad but it's unlikely that the target weakness is superior to a normal damage of a 10d6 spell will do in this level.
then with energy mutagen getting into one of the rulebook and dragoon throat scale
Energy Mutagen's drawback is pretty dangerous when facing most energy weakness creatures. Most of then does the opposite damage what means that you will get an weakness against them. Also it's an elixir something inside the alchemist area. Similar to Potions of Retaliation a non-alchemist have to buy a bunch cheap low level different damage types Energy Mutagen in order to get an extra energy damage to trigger a weakness while alchemists can make the stronger version of the right elixir with Quick Alchemy. That said this won't give a failure effect so probably for this alchemist the bomb still a way better solution and this elixir is more useful to get a resistance.
all melee martial and half of caster get even better option for trigger energy weakness
also there are more and more option for precious material like clad in metal and cold iron blanch
exploit weakness just become easier overall
Yes I'm not saying that's they are unable to do but it's harder to get the same efficiency and versatility that alchemists do.
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If martials were exploiting weaknesses on a regular basis I think I would have witnessed it by now. Martials also face resistances and immunities, it's reducing their damage but rarely the Alchemist's one.
I must agree that I do not have reason to think it's a common thing for martials to exploit weakness in reaction during a fight.
I will say that martials do commonly exploit weaknesses though.
The catch is that I'm limiting my statement to my pf2e experience in published APs. They do a rather strong job of keeping their monster selection on theme, which is more than enough for martials to adjust once they get the hint after the theme is recognized.
In Gatewalkers, it was rather obvious that fire would be a good choice, and a flaming rune will proc a lot of weakness.
Even 2ndary / temporary AP themes, like in Gatewalkers where there was a long stretch of demons running around, is more than enough to prepare for (if they even care enough to do so).
Abomination Vaults has the same deal with undead as a primary, and devils are featured as 2ndary.
There is/was a noticeable difference in martials exploiting more weaknesses as the levels go up and more tools become available (especially property runes), but players do like to react to any degree of foreshadowing if they get the chance (so long as that fun is "worth the hassle").
Maybe that's getting some Silversheen once they hear of a werewolf, or it might be an elemental spellheart (very underrated as an early game pick, imo).
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In the new Alchemist, only Bomber can get away with not budgeting those bombs w/ their new passive to option select their damage type on the QVs, and the likely budgeting of VVs for crafted bombs.
All other Alchs that are "on reaction" throwing a bomb to exploit a weakness are spending a precious VV, lack the Features, and most likely lack the Feats, to make that bomb throw a big impact.
As a Chi post-master, I might make a VV bomb if the formula has inherent persistent weakness popping, like an alch's fire, but honestly I'd need to back that throw up with a hero point or Sure Strike.
Needing a hit to get the persistent means that my PC will likely benefit more from doing the routine they are invested in.
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This means the realistic "weakness exploiter" scenario is that my "optimized Chi" might be to buy a few L1 bombs of types I think will come up, and use a familiar to coagulate the bombs, both removing friendly fire splash and adding persistent to all of them.
The catch is that, same as pre-master, these bombs should likely go onto the belts of everyone. More importantly, the real issue here is that nothing in that preparation plan is only Alchemist!.
As an alchemical Chiurgeon, there is 0 benefit / need for me specifically to prepare some coagulated bombs.
Anyone can slot a familiar ability for a day, anyone can buy and use a coagulant alembic (Common item, no requirement for even alch crafting). If matching a weakness is big impact, then a martial will dedicate 2-3 actions to get persistent damage ticking away, or to pop that Silversheen/Cold Iron.
If hitting a weakness was really a headlining feature, then martials would invest the brainpower/hassle to carry a few persistent belt bombs. The fact that even some of the most-prepared martials may carry a Silversheen, but do not carry L1 coagulated bombs says a lot.
All these added together means the weakness-popping benefits are:
-- more or less Bomber only, both due to their Features and item budget shrinkage
-and- when a weakness is discovered that does not match the ongoing theme
-and- when the weakness is not so big as to be worth a few actions from a martial.