I know there are tons of threads on these boards for theory-crafting character concepts, some of which involve dipping into multiple other classes, but I'm curious about how often you actually see characters with more than just two or three classes being played at the table?
Our former Venture Lieutenant became infamous for arcane builds that cherry-picked low-level abilities from multiple classes--usually taking an unusual archetype for every class--in order to achieve some combo he had in mind. It became something of a running joke for us to express shock and amazement any time his PCs took more than one level in a single class. One of his more effective weird builds was focused on sunder attacks with multiple natural weapons. IIRC that PC had 4-5 different martial classes by level 5-6. He's gone to similar extremes to achieve a specific schtick at least once or twice since then. (He's particularly fond of dipping two levels of paladin for divine grace, and even when he doesn't he almost never dumps Cha because he enjoys being the party diplomat too much.)
I have rarely multi-classed my own characters simply because many classes' core abilities require investing levels in them to remain effective, and many higher-level abilities are too good to want to delay access to them. Casters are the ones most obviously affected in this way, but even a rogue's effectiveness in combat will suffer a serious hit if their other class doesn't make up for their sneak attack progression in some way. (At once point, my dash-1 rogue took a level of cleric for RP reasons, but soon retrained out of it because he could better serve his god by becoming a more effective rogue.) Out of my 17 PFS 1E characters, only 5 are multi-classed, and two of those are because I specifically built them to qualify for a prestige class. (I have one more who was aiming for a PrC, but the advent of 2E meant she never got played enough to get there.)
Speaking of PrC's, there are a few that require two classes to qualify for them (mystic theurge, eldritch knight, rage prophet, etc.) but I have yet to play any of those myself except as NPCs. I did GM for one back in my v.3.5 days. That PC was a cleric of the magic god, and had always intended to go mystic theurge once she acquired enough levels. Along the way, she also picked up a level or two of loremaster while advancing her arcane spellcasting, just because it was more interesting than taking more levels in wizard.
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I'm playing a Cleric/Sorc/Mystic Theurge in a Return of the Runelords game.
So, that's three classes.
I might have seen someone else playing a three (possibly four) class character in another AP, but it's been a while since that game.
For sure I have never seen anyone else play a character with any more classes than three or possibly four.
I've seen a few dual or triple class characters, though all of the triples were to get pqs for a prestige class. The singular quad was a paladin/ monk/ sorcerer/ dragon disciple. That monstrosity was 11th level, tons of defense and secondary casting and second string melee.
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*ahem*
"Pasha Trade Prince Small Ears No Die Brave Sir Goblin No Face The Very Scary Saver Of All His Friends And Sometimes Other People Too, at your service!, along with my prestigious companion and the bestest wolf ever. Sir Good Boy Not Food."
(from my PFS days) Cavalier Honor Guard Envoy (6), Bard Savage Skald (1), Rogue Thug (1), Battle Herald (1), Ranger Freebooter (2)
i actually need to level up if i ever play again, debating between bloodrager, barbarian, or a few other things
ran a gimmick involving buffing the group with freebooters bane, bardic inspiration, and both of us using the bodyguard feat and giving 19 ac (21 ac?) to adjacent companions, and using an intimidate check to give every enemy within 30ft the frightened condition via dazzling display from cavalier order and thug rogues ability. made for a good bubble defense
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I have a back burner build of:
Gunslinger Mysterious stranger 1/ Unchained Rogue Thug 1/ Cavalier 2/ Bard Archaeologist X utilizing Dazzling Display
another backburner character is Fighter Two handed fighter archetype 4, Barbarian Titan Mauler 3, Living monolith 10, specializing in oversized butchers axe and vital strike in conjunction with overhand chop
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Let's see..... I have an Eldritch Scion Magus that dipped one level of Inspired Blade Swashbuckler and 2 levels of Oathbound Paladin. I also have a Gunchemist that took 3 levels of Trench Fighter, and 4 levels of Phantom Thief Unchained Rogue.
Honestly the only character I have that has 4 classes is the character I'm never going to be allowed to play - 4 levels of Weretouched Shifter, 3 levels of White-Haired Witch, 5 levels of Wizard, and 8 levels of Unchained Barbarian. It's a natural attacking build that has EVERY different natural weapon.
Floating somewhere around on these messageboards from several years ago is a post (which I don't even know how to begin searching for) in which somebody posted a PFS-legal (not sure if it was ever actually used in PFS) build including 1 level of almost every martial class.
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In actual play?
Hmm... I've got my personal favorite in the Tyrant's Grasp campaign, Kaius Ironstaff: Barbarian (Savage) 4 / Kineticist (Elemental Ascetic) 2 / Evangelist 1 / Mortal Usher 7 // VMC Wizard [Foresight]
I've also got one in the Giantslayer campaign, Darnel the Pale: Witch (white-haired) 10 / Brawler (Strangler) 2 / Unchained Rogue (sylvan trickster) 2 // VMC Magus
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This one isn't in actual play YET, but I'm working on a my next character in an upcoming Wrath of the Righteous game: Monk 3 / Paladin 4 / Champion of Irori 1 / Brother of the Seal 2 / Student of Perfection 3 / Evangelist (CoI) 7 // VMC Bard
Add two levels of alchemist to my character up above, removing two levels of barbarian. Nets me a tentacle attack without needing the Tentacle Cloak. It's better since the cloak gives reach and that would ruin pounce.
I don't think I've ever seen a PC with more than three classes. Three is pretty common and I've seen it several times, but builds that use 4 or 5 classes are rather rare. They exist, as evidenced by people bringing them up in this thread, but they are rarely seen and tend to be the creation of a certain kind of player.
I almost played a game as a Paladin/Monk/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple/Eldritch Knight once, but it fell through. Great build, and I used it in the Wrath of the Righteous video game adaptation, but never seen it at the table.
Speaking of PrC's, there are a few that require two classes to qualify for them (mystic theurge, eldritch knight, rage prophet, etc.) but I have yet to play any of those myself except as NPCs.
Mystic Theurge is a fascinating and iconic prestige class, but the Pathfinder version fixed none of its problems from 3.5, and the Combined Spell class feature that got added is borderline worthless. The Theurge is decent enough at high levels, but getting there is a slog and it's just not fun to play.
There was a brief period when there was early qualification cheese that was officially sanctioned in Pathfinder FAQ's, and people were entering Mystic Theurge with combinations like Oracle 4 / Sorcerer 1 and it actually wasn't overpowered at all. The forums were full of people asking advice on how to do it, and not a single GM complaining about the results being overpowered. It really goes to show those high prerequisites weren't necessary.
And it seems Paizo took notice, because shortly after they closed these loopholes the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat appeared. This feat had one immediate and obvious application: early qualification into Arcane Trickster. Now instead of entering as a Rogue 3/Wizard 3, you could enter as a Rogue 1/Wizard 4 which makes entry much more realistic and only costs you a single level of spellcasting progression and a single feat. Overall it's now a very viable option.
Rage Prophet was a very underpowered prestige class. It trades off too much, has too high of a prerequisite to enter, and doesn't really commit to either melee combat or offensive spellcasting very well. It's very much a product of "early Pathfinder" where Paizo was still trying to figure out the direction they wanted to go, and also didn't have a strong grasp yet of what made something good, resulting in a lot of stuff that overshot or undershot (case in point: Rage Prophet was published in the same book as the Summoner). In the end, Paizo moved away from archetypes and the Rage Prophet was largely forgotten.
But in late Pathfinder a lot of support arrived that incidentally helped the Rage Prophet. The Prestigious Spellcaster feat meant that instead of losing 5 levels of spellcasting progression you were now only losing 2, and the Mad Magic feat gave new options with which to rage and cast simultaneously. While it's still a steep tradeoff, there is enough mitigation of the downsides and support to make the rage+cast approach workable. However, it's still a bit of a one-trick-pony that leans too heavily on its 7th level ability to add Constitution bonus to spell DC's. That's a huge DC boost, and really the only power here that packs enough of a punch to be worth it. Overall it's a janky relic of early Pathfinder that's found a very specific niche due to interactions with other options from late Pathfinder.
Now, Eldritch Knight is the most interesting of these prestige classes because it's the only one that never dropped off. Yes, the Magus stole the spotlight, but its niche was in its action economy efficiency. The Eldritch Knight's niche was allowing you to blend full arcane casting with a synergistic martial class. Especially at higher levels once it had Spell Perfection and Spell Critical to reliably throw out quickened spells every round, the Eldritch Knight was a highly competitive alternative to the Magus. But at lower levels it's understandable that most players preferred the smooth action economy of the Magus that just worked out of the box without much optimization.
But the Eldritch Knight really got some incredible support as Pathfinder progressed. The Prestigious Spellcaster feat was absolutely huge, as that one extra level put the Eldritch Knight decisively ahead of the Magus for spellcasting progression. It also opened up more multiclass options, as you could realistically do a little more dipping on the martial side without completing giving up the spellcasting side. Mage Cartridges added incredible support for firearm Eldritch Knight builds. And the Arcing Weapon and Explosive Weapon feats basically gave it its own alternative to spellstrike.
I think there are a lot of great options for EK out there. The standard Fighter/Wizard entry works well, but you can use Gunslinger to go the firearm route, Witch with Strength Patron can delay entry slightly to wait for Divine Power which is obviously amazing for a gish, Arcanist is a bit iffy since Reservoir doesn't scale with EK levels but there are some really good exploits for a gish, and Sorcerer has amazing options with its synergy with Paladin, Scaled Fist Monk, and Dragon Disciple.
I had a helpful halfling build that at level 5 had levels in bard, brawler, cavalier, hunter, and oracle. No new classes after 5th level.
Another character was brawler, magus, arcane trickster, evangelist.
Floating somewhere around on these messageboards from several years ago is a post (which I don't even know how to begin searching for) in which somebody posted a PFS-legal (not sure if it was ever actually used in PFS) build including 1 level of almost every martial class.
I never considered what a character like this would actually look like.
So, assuming 13 martial classes, here's my take:
Alignment: Lawful Neutral (to accommodate the Barbarian, Monk, and Paladin)
CLASS SKILLS
Besides normal class skills, this character adds Knowledge (history), Knowledge (religion), and Linguistics to his list of class skills.
LEVEL BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Shifter claws (natural strikes), style mastery, style shifting, wild empathy (Style Shifter)
2nd +2 +4 +2 +0 Bloodline (Martyred), bloodline power, bloodrage, contact specialist (Blood Conduit Bloodrager)
3rd +3 +6 +4 +0 Deeds, grit, gunsmith (Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger)
4th +4 +8 +4 +0 Fast movement, trance (Geminate Invoker Barbarian)
5th +5 +10 +6 +0 Brawler's cunning, martial training, mutagen, unarmed strike (1d6) (Mutagenic Mauler Brawler)
6th +6 +10 +8 +0 Deeds, panache, swashbuckler finesse (Swashbuckler)
7th +7 +12 +10 +0 Bonus feat, flurry of blows (bonus attack), hurricane punch unarmed strike (1d6) (Windstep Master Unchained Monk)
8th +8 +14 +10 +0 Martial Flexibility (Varisian Free-Style Fighter)
9th +9 +16 +12 +0 Accuracy, studied target (Sniper Witch Killer Slayer)
10th +10 +18 +12 +0 Banner (Stalwart Standard), challenge 1/day, Order of the Green, tactician (Standard Bearer Cavalier)
11th +11 +20 +12 +0 Challenge 1/day, order, resolute defense, resolve (Yojimbo Samurai)
12th +12 +22 +14 +0 Freebooter's bane, track, wild empathy (Freebooter Ranger)
13th +13 +24 +14 +2 Detect evil, smite evil 1/day (Gray Paladin)
1. Improved Initiative, Power Attack; Improved Unarmed Strike, Snake Style (Style Shifter bonus style feats)
2. Improved Bull Rush (Blood Conduit bonus feat)
3. Rapid Reload; Gunsmithing (Gunslinger bonus feat)
4. Diehard (Geminate Invoker bonus feat)
5. Point-Blank Shot
7. Snake Sidewind; Combat Reflexes, Hurricane Punch (Windstep Master bonus feats)
9. Snake Fang
11. Deadly Aim
13. Rapid Shot
So this Martial Dilettante, whom I imagine as something along the lines of this guy combined with this guy and this guy will probably never fail a Fortitude save and has an incredible Reflex save, as well. On the other hand, he'll almost certainly have to pick up a trait that gives him a bonus to Will saves, as well as Steadfast Personality. His resolve class feature will hopefully bail him out when he (inevitably) needs it.
My little experiment counts as having an Intelligence score of 13 for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of combat feats and has a few levels that count as both a fighter and a monk. Between his Cavalier and Samurai levels, he can issue a challenge 2/day, gain the benefit of a combat feat he doesn't have for a minute four times per day, and can assign a teamwork feat to allies once per day.
Between his Gunslinger and Swashbuckler levels, this cultured practitioner of Gun-Fu has access to a respectable Grit/Panache pool, with which he can fuel his deeds. He enters combat with a double-barreled pistol, but can close enemies down quickly. He favors hand-to-hand combat up close, and generally relies on the cumulative bonuses of his freebooter's bane and studied target abilities, in conjunction with those of his banner. He can Opportune Parry and Riposte to his heart's content, turning misses into unarmed attacks of opportunity. Additionally, he can use his Hurricane Punch to create space to reload and fire without provoking.
Against key enemies, our hero can activate his challenge, mutagen, rage, and smite evil. His challenges and smite evil are underwhelming in terms of damage output, but the latter chips in a decent bonus to attack and AC. His mutagen combined with his rage can make the difference for one (hopefully short) battle, and his bloodrage can do the same for another.
I'm sure this isn't PFS-legal, and it's by no means an optimized build, but it was nonetheless a fun exercise. I wonder how viable it would be to round off the other seven levels with martial Prestige Classes...
clearly you were never in PFS where the majority of GMs & coordinators opposed early entry for various PrCs via SLAs and thus the loud complaints got things 'clarified'
No, I've always played with my own group. I've had to deal with overpowered PC's in my time, and have "the chat" with players whose characters are clearly causing issues. The early qualification Mystic Theurge is nowhere near the character builds or specific feat or spell choices that caused me to have "the chat".
I can understand and fully agree that the early qualifications were janky, weird, and arbitrary, but at least as far as the Mystic Theurge goes it wasn't overpowered. The Theurge is bottlenecked by its action economy, and has to choose between being really MAD (if it goes the Int/Wis route) or losing a lot of class features (if it goes the Cha/Cha route).
If we compare Oracle 15 to Oracle 4/Sorcerer1/Mystic Theurge 10, you're losing 1 level of Oracle spellcasting progression, 3 attack bonus, 11 hit points, 11 levels of favored class bonus, 5 Mystery spells, and 3 Revelations in exchange for arcane spellcasting ability as an 11th level Sorcerer and a bloodline arcana. Is it good? Yes, this is definitely a good trade. But it's not so good as to break the game in any material way, nor will it completely outclass a single-classed Oracle.
There's a multiclass character in my campaign who is just two classes.
They are not especially effective as they have multiclassed two different casting classes with different casting attributes. Too MAD, their classes don't synergize, and they refused my homebrew attempts to help them as being too complex. So they're going to be rocking 3rd level spells when everyone else is getting access to 5th level spells in my coming level up. Its not even for a prestige class or anything; and they didn't even stop the one class leveling up at an especially good point. Its just "for the flavor" and thats cool.
However, they have also complained about their character not being effective on more than one occasion.
As a result I'm honestly not a fan of multiclassing in general, even if its more of a player issue in this case. I suppose I wouldn't mind it if someone has a specific idea of something they want to accomplish. I'm just usually helping my players build their characters, so I try to keep them clear of multiclassing. Instead I help them find archetypes or prestige classes that let them do the thing they want.
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Yojimbo Sanjuro
uRogue Charlatan x / Cavalier 2 / Monk Farstrike 1 / Magus Spire Defender 1 / Fighter Dragoon 2
Reach Whirlwind Trip with Axebeak mount, I think there was room in there for Hunter to get Outflank/Pack Flanking, but items ended up giving those feats faster to both PC and mount so more rogue meant more sneak attack.
Long Arm spell from Magus level was real nice. I think they are up to lvl 14 right now after I GM’d Feast of Dust.
There's a multiclass character in my campaign who is just two classes.
They are not especially effective as they have multiclassed two different casting classes with different casting attributes. Too MAD, their classes don't synergize, and they refused my homebrew attempts to help them as being too complex. So they're going to be rocking 3rd level spells when everyone else is getting access to 5th level spells in my coming level up. Its not even for a prestige class or anything; and they didn't even stop the one class leveling up at an especially good point. Its just "for the flavor" and thats cool.
However, they have also complained about their character not being effective on more than one occasion.
As a result I'm honestly not a fan of multiclassing in general, even if its more of a player issue in this case. I suppose I wouldn't mind it if someone has a specific idea of something they want to accomplish. I'm just usually helping my players build their characters, so I try to keep them clear of multiclassing. Instead I help them find archetypes or prestige classes that let them do the thing they want.
Oof, two casting classes with different casting stats? For flavor only? I've dipped out of casting a couple of times on different characters, even for flavor reasons, but I tried to keep to the same casting stats when I did. The only time I didn't was for my oracle. I dipped a single level of warpriest in order to get Weapon Focus and Divine Fighting Technique as bonuses.
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Musket Master Gunslinger 5 / Warpriest 4 / Grenadier Alchemist 2 / Tortured Crusader Paladin 5 / Abjurer Wizard 1
He started off as a Goblin Gunslinger. I was never planning to take more than 5 levels in Gunslinger from the beginning, but I honestly didn't know where the character or build were going at the time the campaign started. I had taken the Called trait and worked with the GM to be clear that I didn't necessarily want it to represent a divine voice, just that he heard something that caused him to occasionally get distracted right before he would catastrophically miss a crucial shot.
The GM ended up playing it straight, though, which led into four levels of Warpriest, which was probably optimal. At that point, he was already well ahead of most of the party's power curve, and had (due to events within the campaign) just gained the ability to read via divine intervention, so he took to reading voraciously and I wanted to represent that mechanically with two classes that used books as part of their class features, so I picked up the first level of Wizard and Alchemist. He more or less became a holy crusader at that point, so instead of continuing Warpriest, I started down Paladin because I wanted his divine abilities to have a tighter restriction on them than they did previously, and represent a closer bond. He had absolutely terrible Charisma, though, so I went Tortured Crusader. I put a second level into Grenadier because I wanted his alchemical abilities to have a bit more mechanical representation and I wanted the second level archetype features, then the rest into Paladin.
It's really a technical "build" issue and requires some system expertise (or copying) as far as being an effective character.On the roleplay(RP) & acting side of things it's about skills and what's on paper (what are the assumptions about your class etc). Often it's hard to actually stay "in character" as people's personalities and common assumptions are projected through the character. We've all had 'that guy' who plays the same no matter the class.
*This thread* is about doing (at best somewhat effective) builds. Players and GMs do silly things at times as it is a Game... lol...
My first game system was Pathfinder 1E, theres might have been 1e, maybe ADnD. As a result they are certain that they have more system expertise than me.
I don't have a problem with this fellow, worth noting. I'm glad they are part of my table and they help keep the game light and at times absurd. We'd rather have a fun and ridiculous adventure rather than painful and difficult one after all. Still, it can be frustrating. I balance my fights around the groups averages and that makes it hard for this character to really succeed.
Oof, two casting classes with different casting stats? For flavor only? I've dipped out of casting a couple of times on different characters, even for flavor reasons, but I tried to keep to the same casting stats when I did. The only time I didn't was for my oracle. I dipped a single level of warpriest in order to get Weapon Focus and Divine Fighting Technique as bonuses.
Yeah, so they're split between Wisdom and Charisma, Druid and Bard. They have an animal companion from the Animal Domain, and even with Boon Companion its still several levels behind. As far as I know they don't plan on taking any more Bard levels, so the AC should catch up a bit (and I have some house rules that make Animal Companions better) but they'd have been so much more effective as a like an Animal Speaker or Fey Speaker or something single classed - or at least having the same casting score.
I use stat arrays so going both high Wisdom and high Charisma means that their physical stats are sub-par - and they tend to use Wild Shape more for utility so they don't even fight while transformed.
Its a whole thing - but as long as they are happy and keep the adventure absurd its all good.
I guess my main point is that I've not seen a well made multiclass done in any of my home games. So thats my contribution to the thread. Hopefully others, with better system mastery, have had success.
Floating somewhere around on these messageboards from several years ago is a post (which I don't even know how to begin searching for) in which somebody posted a PFS-legal (not sure if it was ever actually used in PFS) build including 1 level of almost every martial class.I never considered what a character like this would actually look like.
So, assuming 13 martial classes, here's my take:
{. . .}
10th +10 +18 +12 +0 Banner (Stalwart Standard), challenge 1/day, Order of the Green, tactician (Standard Bearer Cavalier)
11th +11 +20 +12 +0 Challenge 1/day, order, resolute defense, resolve (Yojimbo Samurai)
{. . .}
One problem: You can't have levels in both Cavalier and Samurai.
{. . .} An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa. {. . .}
Sorry, couldn't find it in Archives of Nethys, so had to use www.d20pfsrd.com (in which rules are easier to find -- I found all sorts of other rules in Archives of Nethys, but not the one I was looking for).
{. . .}
Rage Prophet was a very underpowered prestige class. {. . .} In the end, Paizo moved away from archetypes and the Rage Prophet was largely forgotten.
I think you meant that Paizo moved away from prestige classes -- they kept on making profusions of archetypes, and then converted archetypes into a thing for 2nd Edition.
But in late Pathfinder a lot of support arrived that incidentally helped the Rage Prophet. The Prestigious Spellcaster feat meant that instead of losing 5 levels of spellcasting progression you were now only losing 2, and the Mad Magic feat gave new options with which to rage and cast simultaneously. {. . .}
Mad Magic has awesome potential, which Rage Prophet unfortunately squanders by STILL requiring the Moment of Clarity Rage Power tax, which does almost nothing for someone who has Mad Magic unless you are heavily investing in skills that require patience and concentration, in which case you should use an archetype that has a modified Rage or Bloodgage that lets you use such skills while in Rage/Bloodrage.
Now, Eldritch Knight is the most interesting of these prestige classes because it's the only one that never dropped off. Yes, the Magus stole the spotlight, but its niche was in its action economy efficiency. The Eldritch Knight's niche was allowing you to blend full arcane casting with a synergistic martial class. Especially at higher levels once it had Spell Perfection and Spell Critical to reliably throw out quickened spells every round, the Eldritch Knight was a highly competitive alternative to the Magus. But at lower levels it's understandable that most players preferred the smooth action economy of the Magus that just worked out of the box without much optimization.
I wouldn't call Spell Critical a way to reliably throw out Quickened spells every round -- you have to threaten a Critical, and then you have to confirm it. It's nice, but not awesome.
But the Eldritch Knight really got some incredible support as Pathfinder progressed. The Prestigious Spellcaster feat was absolutely huge, as that one extra level put the Eldritch Knight decisively ahead of the Magus for spellcasting progression. It also opened up more multiclass options, as you could realistically do a little more dipping on the martial side without completing giving up the spellcasting side. Mage Cartridges added incredible support for firearm Eldritch Knight builds. And the Arcing Weapon and Explosive Weapon feats basically gave it its own alternative to spellstrike.
Eldritch Knight eventually gets ahead of the Magus in spellcasting, but it's a slog, and having read Arcing Weapon and Explosive Weapon, it sounds like your action economy is still considerably worse (which still hurts even for a while after you've gotten a bit ahead in spellcasting), since they give you Spellstrike but not Spell Combat.
And Explosive Weapon sounds potentially very dangerous to your allies . . . .
I think there are a lot of great options for EK out there. The standard Fighter/Wizard entry works well, but you can use Gunslinger to go the firearm route, Witch with Strength Patron can delay entry slightly to wait for Divine Power which is obviously amazing for a gish, Arcanist is a bit iffy since Reservoir doesn't scale with EK levels but there are some really good exploits for a gish, and Sorcerer has amazing options with its synergy with Paladin, Scaled Fist Monk, and Dragon Disciple.
Witch gets hurt because Eldritch Knight doesn't progress Hexes, so you would have to confine yourself to using those that do not scale (or at least not much) with level, or at least something like White-Haired Witch which does scale with level but at least gives you something at low levels that is passably usable against your enemies at high levels. This is also true to some extent for Sorcerer and Wizard, but at least those have some options that don't scale with level but are not bad when used as low-level powers at high levels (for instance, the Admixturer Evoker's 1st level power and the Foresight Diviner's 1st level power).
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I think you meant that Paizo moved away from prestige classes -- they kept on making profusions of archetypes, and then converted archetypes into a thing for 2nd Edition.
Yes, it's a typo. I think most people would recognize what I meant, but it is irritating that I can't go back to fix because of the 1 hour edit limit on Paizo forums.
Mad Magic has awesome potential, which Rage Prophet unfortunately squanders by STILL requiring the Moment of Clarity Rage Power tax
I'd agree, even with the support it now has it's still a very shaky choice, but it's at least tenable now with the support it has. In the grand scheme of viability, it's somewhere below the Spellslinger which is my golden benchmark for "it's bad, but you can make it work if you really want to"
I wouldn't call Spell Critical a way to reliably throw out Quickened spells every round -- you have to threaten a Critical, and then you have to confirm it. It's nice, but not awesome.
Spell Critical on its own isn't consistent, but when paired with Spell Perfection and a few Quickened Spell slots you absolutely can be in a position to use that Swift action cast every round. Any round you don't get the Spell Critical activation, you just use one of the other methods.
Even with a conservative +30/+30/+25/+20 attack routine with a 15-20 crit range and critical focus, you've got around a 70% chance to get at least one crit on a full attack against a typical CR 16 monster. So especially with Dimensional Agility and swift action Dimension Door (a great choice for Spell Perfection for a melee gish) to get pseudo-pounce it's not unreasonable to expect Spell Critical to give you a free swift action cast on most turns.
And Explosive Weapon sounds potentially very dangerous to your allies . . . .
"Area of effect" isn't just spells with a radius, it also includes spells that are cones and lines and those are easily directed away from your party. It's debatable whether this is RAI, and it may well have been intended only for spells with a radius, but as written it's more permissive than that.
Witch gets hurt because Eldritch Knight doesn't progress Hexes
As mentioned, the big draw here is Strength Patron Divine Power on a gish which is very nice. You probably aren't going to be using most standard action hexes anyways. It's going in a very different direction from a regular witch.
This is also true to some extent for Sorcerer and Wizard, but at least those have some options that don't scale with level but are not bad when used as low-level powers at high levels (for instance, the Admixturer Evoker's 1st level power and the Foresight Diviner's 1st level power).
The biggest thing the Sorcerer gives up is actually its favored class bonus. The Human Sorcerer FCB is absolutely huge for Sorcerers, and much more impactful than its bloodline powers, and roughly increases your spells known by 30%. But aside from this, Wizard and Sorcerer both have plenty of front-loaded options that don't rely on class level scaling or scale naturally with spell level (for instance Sorcerers can trade away the 1st level bloodline power for Blood Havoc which scales with caster level instead of class level).
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One problem: You can't have levels in both Cavalier and Samurai.
{. . .} An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa. {. . .}Sorry, couldn't find it in Archives of Nethys, so had to use www.d20pfsrd.com (in which rules are easier to find -- I found all sorts of other rules in Archives of Nethys, but not the one I was looking for).
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Can swap one out for the avenger vigilante; it keeps BAB, and helps the character's Will save!One problem: You can't have levels in both Cavalier and Samurai.
SIGH OF RELIEF!
It goes to show you just how much time I spent looking at the Vigilante that I forgot that the Avenger was a thing! :facepalm:
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My current character in our Iron Gods campaign is a Bloodrager-13/Oracle-1/Brawler-2/Fighter-1 . So that's 4 classes.
I'm thinking of taking 2 levels of Ninja for Vanishing Trick for story reasons, whoch would bring it to 5.
The character is a Bloodrager, and almost all his abilities are based on that. I took 1 level of Dual-Cursed Oracle after my character was killed and resurrected, taking the Lame and Possessed curses. The Possessed curse was pure flavour - he came back, but something came back with him. Lame was more for mechanical benefits, but it fit the flavour of a deadly injury that never healed. I also made very good use of the Misfortune revelation, we almost had a few TPKs when we got hit by Confusion, so having the ability to give some party members the ability to reroll has been a godsend.
I took a level of Fighter with the UNBREAKABLE FIGHTER archetype. This was purely mechanical, as this gave me the prerequisites for the STALWART feats. However just because it was a mechanical choice doesn't mean it didn't fit my character. To me, class levels represent abilities gained as you level up, and damage reduction seemed to fit his character more than any abilities gained through more levels in Bloodrager.
In a similar vein, I took a level of Brawler in part because it gave me Improved Unarmed Strike. We had a section of the gmae where we were infiltrating some criminal organisations in a city, and being unarmed helped us remain undetected. This character does have a bite attack, but it seemed a bit crazy to me that this 11th level PC who is one of the strongest and best fighters in the world can't throw a punch that deals lethal damage. Also, while this is a purely mechanical benefit, doing this allowed me to take Combat Expertise without the INT requirement. This both allowed me to foght defensively , and gave me the ability to use Martial Flexibility to flex into any Improved <Combat Maneuver> feat. This is not only powerful, but also makes combat a lot more fun, as I think PF1E kind-of discourages using combat maneuvers without heavy feat investment. This 1 level in Brawler allowed me to have a more versatile and fun time on the battlefield, rather than just full-attacking every round.
I later took another level of Bralwer basically because nothing in Bloodrager paat level 13 really matters to my character. Why take more levels in a class that isn't really giving me anything? I was also under the impression that we would only get to level 17, so I just picked a class with full BAB and a bonus feat.
However our GM has said he's going to give us some bonus levels , so I started thinking what abilities I might want. My character is part of the GHOST WOLVES tribe, who use Invisibility to fight against the Technic League. I don't currently have any Invisibility, but I thought the Vanishing Trick Ninja ability would work well. It's a swift action so I can use it in combat, and even though it only lasts 2 rounds I'll be able to use it up to 5 times per day . It seems like the most thematic, yet also useful ability I can get with just a couple more levels.
So there you have it, a PC currently being played with levels in 4 classes, planning for 5, and who knows what I'll do with that 1 level at the end.
I've seen plenty of four/five class characters in organized play, but I think the most I've done is three. Maybe I had a four class character back in 3.5, but I've forgotten.probably in the forgotten realms... ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
HA!