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I have played a couple of knife master rogues and like the archetype a lot. The current iteration has 4 levels of the brawler fighter archetype. Daggers are a part of the close weapons group. +3 damage with close weapons and +2 damage for weapon specialization significantly ups the damage floor. Piranha Strike also helps raise the floor. The only character in my group that I don't match or exceed in DPR is the Zen Archer. ![]()
An army moves on: its stomach, a sea of paper work, its supply train, etc... Include some low level experts in the organization. They can still wield a weapon and wear light armor but they also come with the various supply and logistics skills to keep your army moving. You need a few smiths, armorers, farriers, cooks, clerks, etc. to support an actual organization. ![]()
How about a Monk of the Empty Hand? (Or any monk really)
Lean into disarm and improved disarm, catch off guard and improved weapon mastery too. ![]()
"or" means it does only one damage type at a time. You have to choose how to use it. A dagger is slashing or piercing. "and" means it does both types at the same time. You don't have to select. A morningstar does bludgeoning and piercing together. This is generally only a thing when dealing with DR of certain creatures. ![]()
Whimsical/gregarious, chaotic, and powerful...
She treats the Paladin like a master because he is uncomfortable with her advances. She flirts because she knows he won't abuse her position. She would, therefore, also screw around with the other characters. If there is someone who wants to attract her attention, she shape changes into a nun. If there's someone who wants to the greatest performer in all of Golarion, she just happens to juggle one more object than they can. Everyone is fair game for this dragon! ![]()
The medieval longsword of HEMA references the length of the hilt instead of the blade. The Pathfinder longsword is more like a broadsword or arming sword while the HEMA longsword is the great sword or bastard sword. If you allow your knights to use the bastard sword instead of the longsword, they can simply choose to use it with one or two hands and can switch easily between both methodologies. There was a 3.5 feat that allowed monks to flurry with a longsword (whirling steel strike) and a variety of archetypes that switch weapons/abilities around so you can 'break the rules' or 'flavor' any way you want. If your knights use the bastard sword, and are free to use one or two hands, they can use power attack either way but gain more benefit from using it two handed. They can utilize precise strike when using one hand. The weapon versatility feat can allow them different damage types as the stab with the point, cut with the edge, and bludgeon with the flat or pommel. Allowing/encouraging different usage of the same weapon allows your knights to become masters of a personal style while still being visually distinctive from other characters. (Every jedi has a lightsabre but they don't all fight the same way.)
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If you play long enough, you will encounter situations that the rules either do not cover or do not cover well. If you play with creative people, they will try to use their skills and abilities in a creative, un-anticipated way. There will be times that you have to adjudicate something to the best of your ability and on the fly. I always try to make those decisions based on:
The GM is more than a judge or referee but I think it is important to remember that the job of a referee is to maintain an even playing field for the players. ![]()
I had a PC in a Dragonlance game (years ago) that was REALLY into the Dwarf stereotypes. He called everyone 'Laddie', sank a bunch of money into alcohol, and insisted on using only 'Dwarf Weapons.' So, to mess with him, I had the group journey to an island that housed a clan of Dwarves cut off from the mainland during the cataclysm. They had adopted a subterranean/submarine lifestyle, ate a lot of fish and fruits, had blonde hair and sun tanned skin. He hated them all so I made them their hero. They worshipped him. He got a set of 'Sea-Dwarven' plate armor (+3, neutral buoyancy, breathe water cast at will) that wasn't cursed at all... it's just that when he tried a battle cry like "By Reorx's Hammer, I'll smite thee!" it would come out "pshaa righ... yer like, totally negative, er some junk, and, like, the ocean doesn't appreciate that, like, at all!" He had to write up a random 'surfer Dwarf' battle-cry for every new battle or the armor wouldn't work. ![]()
I'm playing in an Ironfang Invasion campaign and my party distributes equipment to NPCs (refugees, former slaves, rescued prisoners, etc) all the time. We handed over armloads of swords, bows, and armor to the militia of Longshadow as we prepared to defend that town from a siege. Handing over an extra weapon and armor to someone who will help you out is worth the 'lost loot' in my opinion. ![]()
How about this one, oh great collective of knowledge? Imagine a spool of wire. If I cast light on the spool, it sheds light in a 20' radius. No problem. What happens if I unwind the spool? Does the entire length of wire (50') shed light in a 20' radius? What if I affix the wire to something and unwind it as I go down the corridor? What if I forge several hundred feet of wire and work it into the ceiling of my fortress/stronghold so that it continues in an unbroken length through every room and corridor? Can I light the entire place with a single cantrip? ![]()
I have played several casters who wore armor and accepted at least some ASF. I had a sorcerer who wanted to look like a squire/herald to all of the heavily armored characters in the group. I HATED being targeted in ambushes and early in every fight because I 'looked like a caster' instead of a martial. I had a mithril chain shirt and both arcane armor training and mastery. I had a (3.5) Dwarven Fighter/Transmuter (prior to the magus) that wore heavy armor and either took verbal only spells or used the still spell feat for everything. There were also other feats which allowed him to ignore ASF for some spell levels and in some situations. I don't believe that I ever forgot to account for it.
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(Pre 3.0) There was a set called Gnomish Workman's Leather armor. You might be able to get it into a home game with GM approval. Description: Gnomish workman's leather armor is a variation of high-quality gnomish leather armor (as described in the Equipment Chapter of The Complete Fighter's Handbook). Gnomish workman's leather is adorned with dozens of tiny tool holders and pouches, typically filled with the most bizarre collection of coins, nails, tools, weapons, widgets, and sprockets ever assembled on one body. For this reason, a set of gnomish workman's leather provides protection identical to studded leather armor.
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A large stone table composed of a horizontal slab (roughly 10' square) supported by 4 smaller pillars in the corner. The table has been roughly worked but is flat and smooth on the top. Around the edge, strange runes are carved. If the PCs can decipher the runes, they read "If a willing Victim that has committed no treachery is killed in a traitor's stead, the Stone Table will crack; and even death itself would turn backwards." The next time they come across the site, it has been cracked. ![]()
Ghosts are evil because they hate the manner in which their lives ended. Acting to keep a ghost locked in an undead state sounds evil to me. Making an agreement/contract with the ghost to a) release it to the afterlife or b) restore it to its original life seems better. That way they can pick up a new cleric ally without having a ghost around. ![]()
Those are all valid statements of valid strategies. They are a matter of game design. Whoever does the most HP in damage fastest is very likely to be the winner. The problem is that if they are optimized to do damage and they view anything you do to minimize the damage they can cause as 'unfair.' Their expectations are at fault. They are bored because there is no challenge and they don't want to be challenged because it means they might 'lose.' In high stakes games, characters get killed and missions fail. Sometimes evil wins. As far as strategy goes, you can always ask for help here before you run something. Tell the collective conscious what encounter specifics (creatures, numbers, terrain, resources you have available, party composition, etc.) and somebody here can write out tactics to turn it into any level of massacre you want. ![]()
Being 'bored' by the fights could mean a lot of things. It's best to find out specifically what they mean before trying to fix a problem that you can't fully identify. • Fights are boring because we're never challenged
There could be a lot of other reasons too. Ask them for specifics before you go changing things. ![]()
Derklord wrote:
I don't believe that you're going to change his mind. ![]()
I've looked at this thread and the cleric thread. Something that I haven't seen suggested and that may help is the idea of starting out at higher level but using NPC classes and then re-training out of them. The idea that an oracle or bard is an 'inexperienced' cleric or wizard is hard for me to imagine. Especially since that as they level up and gain experience they will be becoming MORE like an Oracle or Bard instead of MORE like a cleric or wizard. If I was trying to do this as role playing backed up by mechanics I would think starting as a commoner4/wizard (generalist)1 would give me the idea. I have been around the community for a while. I have grown up here and have a job, family, and friends. I know people and have a back story. I'm also way tougher than a 1st level wizard. I have more HP, skills, and better attack rolls. I have marginally better saving throws. But throughout all that time I was working at the tavern or as a clerk in the herbalist's shop, I was also secretly studying my book. It's taken years but I finally started figuring it all out... just in time for the adventure to happen! Now as I level up I use the retraining rules to replace the commoner levels. At 6th level I retrain one of the commoner levels and become a commoner 3/wizard 3. If this doesn't help then I apologize for the derail. ![]()
Level range 1-9 with 5-9 being the 'sweet spot.' Fifth level spells are the breaking point for me. After that I start losing the will suspend my disbelief. I like grittier, tougher, 'real-life' campaigns where holding onto your own little piece of the world and keeping your own people safe is hard enough. There's no reason to bring liches, space-faring monsters, and Cuthulu tentacle horrors into my efforts to keep the local Baron from running roughshod over the local peasants. I have run a lot of campaigns over the last 30 years. Only a few have ever gone past level 12. ![]()
How about summoning 'troops' instead of individuals?
Summon Monster IX:
Following the same progression, a summoner could use as Summon Monster IV to get a Troop of poisonous frogs. It can be described as a mass of noxious toads but only takes up one spot on the initiative order. ![]()
1. Check the DC to find and remove/disable the traps. To speed the game along, don't even include the ones that the rogue can deal with by taking 10. They can still 'be there' but they are narrative only. 2. Don't let (all) of the traps be just off by themselves in a corridor. Intelligent enemies use their intelligence to plan defenses of their lairs. Include some traps IN the areas where other encounters will take place.
3. If the traps are maintained by an opposing force and they notice that they are getting circumvented on a regular basis and that their defenses keep getting raided, have them set up a few traps for the rogue just so they can set up an ambush.
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Question 1: Is it an issue of the character making the checks all (most of) the time making the traps a non-issue? "The traps don't hurt anyone or consume resources so what's the point?" Question 2: Is it an issue of time and book keeping slowing down the game? "You spend 20 minutes checking for and disabling traps and I want to get to a fight." Question 3: Is it a question of the PLAYER wants to check for traps and be challenged but has built a character that negates that challenge? "I have ONE job in this crew! It's Stupid but I'm GOING to do it!" The problem doesn't seem to be one of you don't know how to build, run, detect, disable, or adjudicate traps according to the rules. Are you looking for spicier/edgier traps or a way to run them so it doesn't bog down the game? ![]()
ShadowcatX wrote:
Player agency is getting to determine what their characters TRY to do given the reality that the GM establishes. As the GM, I decide if it rains on them when they camp.
Player agency is deciding to buy a tent next time they're in town.
P.S. You clearly did mean me personally, since you were responding to my post and quoted me in it. ![]()
All of the people complaining about loss of player agency... what about the agency of the GM to give the players an experience that they DON'T ANTICIPATE? I've run a campaign where I took the characters to 6th level and then left them all at a huge cliff hangar. I then switched to another campaign in the same world and led them to a huge cliff hangar and 'abandoned' that one as well. My players were starting to get really irritated that I kept bringing in new things without finishing anything. The third campaign also got to 6th level. They all started guessing that I would again abandon everything. Instead I allowed them to use all 3 sets of characters to resolve all 3 cliff hangars and unite the campaigns. The three parties then got combined and re-organized to go after three separate pieces of the campaign's goal. That was MY agency, not theirs.
The player's FUN is important, so is the GM's.
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I'm going to disagree with (nearly) everyone here and say that this can work out. If characters have to sacrifice themselves to achieve a goal that they find important, that is a great possible ending to those characters' stories. I'm not suggesting that it should be used as the end of a long standing campaign where the characters learn that they were sacrificial lambs all along. But as a chapter of an otherwise ongoing story arc or connected campaigns, this could be very useful for story telling. Look at how Rogue One fits into the Star Wars story line. If you were using several different sets of characters and groups to tell an epic tale of how a small city grew to be the center of a huge empire, or how a single family acted over generations to topple the Infernal Chelaxian powers, a story about a group of characters who died fulfilling a mission that allowed the story to continue could be viewed years later as a great memory. But maybe that's just me. ![]()
I think the biggest point I was trying to make, and one that will help you the most is 'it doesn't matter how high the skill check is if there's nothing else to learn.' A really high check on an insignificant object does NOT make it significant. If I give a pretty scroll case to a group as part of treasure and they get an appraise roll of 15, I'll tell them that they have found a darkwood scroll case decorated with elven motifs, worth 50gp. If they roll an appraise check and get (with bonuses) a 55, I'll tell them they have found a darkwood scroll case decorated with eleven FLORAL motifs and is similar in style to work done in Kyonin 75 years ago. It's worth 50 gp. Don't let the rolls create a story plot where none exists. Even if you start talking about Wizards of the Green Hand and the arrangement of the stones, it doesn't give the scroll case any more GAME significance nor does it up the value. It is a scroll case, worth 50GP. If someone fixates on the possible importance of the Wizards of the Green Hand, allow another skill check to reveal that the Sect fell apart due to scandal some 120 years ago. There are almost certainly Wizards around still who WERE members of the Green Hand, but not a single one of them will admit it or talk about it to a stranger. If that doesn't work, just say... "It's a pretty scroll tube worth 50GP! That's ALL it is." ![]()
Mr Critical...
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Useful... yes. That doesn't mean that it has to be too specific.
Banner of Thelkor
Royalty DC 10: This is a primitive heraldic banner on painted on leather. Local or Royalty DC 15: The banner is similar in style to banners used by modern humanoid tribes/clans. These types of banners haven't been used by Human kingdoms in at least a few centuries. History DC 20: This banner's symbolism and age would indicate that it was originally created in an area to the south some 4 centuries ago. The petty kingdoms there did not survive long. Geography DC 15: That area is littered with cave complexes used by local miners for 100 years. Locals believe them to be haunted. Profession Soldier DC 15: Caves and Mines make a good place to stage an army out of... as long as it remains secret. Being discovered leads to a simple siege, and starvation for the trapped army. Royalty DC 25: The banner's age, combined with the symbolism indicate that the Jarl who bore it was in league with, or paid homage to, a greater Force or Ruler. That ruler worshipped wicked Gods now long forgotten. History DC 30: The banner belonged to Thelkor, a Tyrant Usurper who, along with his followers, took part in a war against the Imperium and lost. He was never heard from again. History or Royalty DC 35: It is rumored among scholars of that study the History of the Jarls, that Thelkor attempted to seize an Imperial Trade City and was vanquished. Geography DC 40: Some of those caves were artificially sealed. The collapses don't look accidental and are too complete to be circumstance. Local miners don't talk about those particular caves and get really nervous when they are mentioned. History DC 40: The Governor of the Imperial Trade City, after the last battle against Thelkor's forces, ordered his sappers to seal the vanquished army inside the caves in an act of simple revenge. The Governor's son was killed during the early fighting and the Governor wanted the enemy to suffer as his family had suffered. Knowledge that Thelkor and his minions turned to cannibalism, survived in a ghoulish state or served a specific BBEG during his coup attempt can not be learned through skill checks. The caves were sealed, forgotten, and left alone for centuries. Nobody goes in there and, if they did, they wouldn't come out again. Thelkor never told anyone that he had betrayed his ruler to the BBEG, that BBEG certainly didn't spread it around, so the knowledge that it happened simply is not recorded. ![]()
yukongil wrote:
There's the unfortunate side effect of RAW that you can't prepare a readied action outside of combat. Initiative must be rolled and you have to get to your spot in the order before you can do anything. You can use a surprise round to ready an action to 'cut the hostage's throat' but the hostage has to be bound, unconscious, held, etc to deliver a coup d' grace. A CDG is, of course a full round action, which is NOT a standard action that CAN be readied. The rules make 'dagger to the throat' and 'loaded crossbowmen on the ledge' kind of a non-starter even at low levels in this game. Players look at a 'cultist with a hostage and a dagger' as a target of a charge/power attack combo instead of a legitimate threat. ![]()
I've read the other thread as well.
It seems to me that you understand how different knowledge checks and skills interact and that History, Local, and Royalty checks could all give a different piece of the puzzle. You put information out there so that the PCs will learn it. They have the skills on the character sheet because they view it as important and/or know your gaming style. You DO want them to learn it so that it reveals clues and rewards you for the work necessary in creating the lore. If the problem is that they get it too quickly, just remember that some of these things will require research. They cannot REMEMBER everything they need off the top of their heads. They aren't carrying their library with them.
If the problem is that they can get a check that is too high, then you either need to modify what you give at certain DCs, raise the DCs, or modify your own expectations. (Your characters can make DC 33 checks because they have been built that way. They've been built that way for a reason.) ![]()
It depends on what you mean by 'too many.' There are no rules (afaik) about placement of weapons and equipment on and about the character's body. The game has encumbrance and GM fiat... both of those can affect a decision. As Name Violation said, how many you can carry is far different from how many can you use. My personal answer to this kind of question is to draw (or get, or imagine) the character standing around or walking with all of their equipment. If they look ridiculous, ungainly, or otherwise strange I 'fix' it by removing equipment. I have a knife master rogue in a home game. He carries 9 daggers/knives.
As far as 'what should you do' is concerned, that will depend on what problem you're trying to fix.
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