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We now know that this is the shape Mythic is taking in War of Immortals, and that two of them are Apocalypse Rider and Eternal Legend. That leaves us with seven slots to fill and a lot of time to do it... any brave guesses?
I'm intrigued by the direction they are going with. I found the 1e versions to be interesting but too broad until they weren't(Basically kind of generic but then had specific options that made older classes better suited for mythic stuff), the Owlcat mythic stuff to be specific and ultimately do to other issues with the game never got too invested in them. Based off of the names they have revealed so far they seem to be going for a nice balance between specific and generic. They seem to have an obvious theme without being so specific as to be "Gold Dragon." That however makes it a bit difficult to predict.
I could see that there being 9 of them, they could have potentially originally planned to be based off of the 9 alignments and then the ogl/remaster stuff happened...which perhaps opens them up to be based on those ideas while being shifted to a specific theme. (for instance I could see Apoclypse Rider having been a cn or maybe ce, or even ne(given the four riders) and the Eternal legend maybe being a good aligned one or LN or true neutral since it seems fairly generic. But now that alignment they might be more focused on the actual theme, so something like Apocalypse Rider could be focused on doing Apocalyptic things but also about *surviving in one* mad max style.
Apocalypse Rider is a cool as hell name which, if NOT linked to the four Daemon heavies, is wide open to interpretation.
Eternal Legend is even less generous with clues as to what, exactly, it's about.
But I'm going to do something a bit wingnut (like how I kept putting my chips on Calistria during the "which Core deity dies?" dead pool despite the fact that I didn't actually see her as the most likely) and posit that maybe they're going to be tied to the godsrain- specifically, into which sort of deity's croaking empowers you. Not because I actually think they'll go in a way that limited, but because without more to go on, it's a place to start.
Here's my guess from the other thread
guessing it's a free archetype-like tack that gives 10 extra feats that you spend exclusively in you're mythic destiny. Maybe it's less though, like 5 feats. Either way I'm guessing it'll be 9 beefy archetypes.....which, now that I'm typing it, sounds like a lot. Maybe a mythic destiny is separate track that gives fixed benefits at certain levels (basically getting a handful of new class features bolted onto your class at certain intervals). That would take much less page space. IDK it could be a number of things, but I'm sure we'll get a peek of one at paizocon or gencon
Okay. So. I'm pretty sure they didn't pick "nine" at random, there's got to be some MEANING behind that number, and not seven or eight or ten; however, "nine" might be "the number of really great ideas we got from our brainstorming session", or "the number that works out the best with our projected page count", or some other factor we don't have access to, thus no point in trying to guess it based on THAT.
Now, what do we have "nine" of, from the information we DO have access to..... "Nine alignments", obviously, except "alignment" is no longer a thing with ORC. Planes, going off the inside cover of RoE, number up to 19, and there ARE ways to chunk them together such that it becomes "nine", but nothing which immediately jumps out to me in a way that makes sense.
It could be different things which ADD UP to "nine". There's four types of magic, but I can't think of any five other things which would have an equal kind of spread.
I mean there's PROBABLY not any kind of underlying "theme" for the different stuff, unless you count "all together, these give coverage for a lot of different character concepts", but yeah.
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At the risk of taking too much from Owlcat's take, I'd really enjoy having an Aeon in the mix... and if I'm really dreaming, there's a Protean-related one, too.
At the risk of taking too much from Owlcat's take, I'd really enjoy having an Aeon in the mix... and if I'm really dreaming, there's a Protean-related one, too.
It'd be awesome. I'd be down for an angel or grand lich mythic destiny
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I really hope none of the Mythic Destinies involve becoming more like a non-mythic creature that already exists. Since if we're roughly mapping them to the 9 outer planes that used to correspond to alignment, making one of them like "the Lich destiny" is no use to evil characters that have no particular interest in being undead.
I strongly prefer that we focus more on "things that people would actually tell legends about" (like "apocalypse rider" and "eternal legend") and less on things like "Jim from Magnimar became a Lich" since Jim could do that without being Mythic.
Apocalypse Rider sounds like the "mounted" mythic destiny, although it might also stretch to cover non-mount companion/minion characters.
Eternal Legend sounds like the "tough"/"resistant" mythic destiny to me. It could also potentially include self-healing and status removal.
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I really hope none of the Mythic Destinies involve becoming more like a non-mythic creature that already exists. Since if we're roughly mapping them to the 9 outer planes that used to correspond to alignment, making one of them like "the Lich destiny" is no use to evil characters that have no particular interest in being undead.
I strongly prefer that we focus more on "things that people would actually tell legends about" (like "apocalypse rider" and "eternal legend") and less on things like "Jim from Magnimar became a Lich" since Jim could do that without being Mythic.
I agree with this. Let other options/mechanics do the heavy lifting when it comes to specific creatures and stuff.
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We don't have 9 alignments anymore but we do have 9 outer planes, so I'm inclined to think each would revolve around each of the outer planes. Apocalypse Rider is obviously for Abbadon, and I think Eternal Legend could be for Elysium since that was the afterlife of heroes in greek myth. I'm also probably spitballing here, but I'm pretty sure there was some PF1e book in which either Elysium or Nirvana (I don't remember) talked about having the souls of heroes or something like that.
I feel Apocalypse Rider being linked to the four, well, Apocalypse Riders (as they're referred to as in the Monster Core) is a very safe bet, especially with Szuriel on the cover of War of Immortals. I think one safe bet is at least 1 destiny minimum linked to each of the 4 traditions, even if very vaguely (Like, I don't think there'll be "You have divine powers" as its own option, but there's the Apocalypse Rider option + the high chance of a celestial/demigod/herald themed thing).
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I am hoping that we have the Archmage for a Mythic Destiny. With how many Archmages we've had in World. And it also my favorite and I need it for my Witch.
At the risk of taking too much from Owlcat's take, I'd really enjoy having an Aeon in the mix... and if I'm really dreaming, there's a Protean-related one, too.
I would second this. I don't think the others such as lich, angel, demon, devil, azata and gold dragon are fantastic fits, but Aeon and Trickster maybe. I think the only reason I want Aeon is because I am disappointed in the Owlcat one
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Given that she's on the cover of War of the Immortals I'd really love to see the Szuriel stats, after all!
Well, given that the devs said the new heroes in WoI are actually gonna have to fight her, then I'd say there's a decent chance we'll see her stats!
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I want to believe that they cannot possibly have just created a mythic destiny for each of the major immortal families by plane/alignment because it seems like there's no way you could tell all the stories you want out of mythic with just those archetypes, and I can't believe Paizo would finally roll out Mythic only to phone-in such a half-baked concept, but I'm not going to lie, having a destiny as specific-sounding as "Apocalypse Rider" out of nine total is doing me a heckin' concern, for all my faith.
On the one hand, if the destinies are not directly named after powerful immortals like archdevils and the like, it feels really strange that one of them just so happened to fit the description of Apocalypse Rider, so I can't imagine what else is out there... But on the other, it may also just be that, despite using demigods as loose concepts, the archetypes don't really have anything to do with emulating angels/devils/etc. so much as is based around a core concept that the associated creature adequately represents as a mythic symbol. In this way, perhaps Apocalypse Rider refers to any kind of mythic figure appropriate to an end-times style myth, etc. and not because they're specifically empowered by or interested in emulating daemons.
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On the one hand, if the destinies are not directly named after powerful immortals like archdevils and the like, it feels really strange that one of them just so happened to fit the description of Apocalypse Rider, so I can't imagine what else is out there... But on the other, it may also just be that, despite using demigods as loose concepts, the archetypes don't really have anything to do with emulating angels/devils/etc. so much as is based around a core concept that the associated creature adequately represents as a mythic symbol. In this way, perhaps Apocalypse Rider refers to any kind of mythic figure appropriate to an end-times style myth, etc. and not because they're specifically empowered by or interested in emulating daemons.
Quick reminder. The first dragon announced in Monster Core was the Diabolic dragon.
But it turned out that not every single dragon in Monster Core was related to a plane. Much to my dismay, there are still no abyssal or abaddonian dragons.
So I doubt it's just a laundry list of the Outer Sphere. But I'm guessing "Apocalypse Rider" is pretty much "you are now a Horseperson of the Apocalypse", or at least Szuriel's trainee. So some of the options are related. If I had to bet I'd say 2 of them are, one focused on the empyreal realms plus apocalypse rider, and then you have other random stuff like "archmage" and "really good fighter" and "really good plant dude".
You are, of course, right; my skepticism is leaping at shadows and only showing me the "Worst Version" it can imagine, and not what I actually hope/expect to happen (although didn't we already know dragons were coming in four tradition-oriented pairs when Diabolic was released?).
Even so, I have to say I also hope they don't just go for the generic "this is a really good fighter" or "mages look here" archetypes. I feel like it would just be retreading 1e's archetype ground if we got a repeat of "Good Warrior" "Good Arcane" "Good Divine" "Good Skills" categories that they quite intentionally dumped when Owlcat made the Wrath of the Righteous game. Maybe some mythic destinies will naturally suit some classes better than others, but I kind of hope that they won't all be "Be More Good At The Thing You Were Already Doing" for each class (not the least of which reason being there's a lot more classes than destinies, and I'm not certain Druids, primal Witches, and primal Sorcerers necessarily have enough in common all to be served by a "Primal Bestboy" destiny.
I'll grant, there may be some Fey Eldest destiny that naturally suits primal casters who like fae, but even in that case I would hope to see more robust themes, so that each class has more than one fit that works for them.
My first thought is to take the description, "undying Eternal Legend" and read into it the common myth of heroes who search for or attain immortality (especially through their legacy). This archetype could serve a legendary warrior like Gilgamesh just as easily as an alchemist trying to recreate an elixir of life or a bard who lives as long as their songs are sung.
(Actually, side thought: What if Eternal Legend is the archetype they added because the idea of the Exemplar epithets were so popular in the playtest?)
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Eternal Legend sounds like the "tough"/"resistant" mythic destiny to me. It could also potentially include self-healing and status removal.
My money would be that's abilites are a generl grab bag on handy things.
Eternal Legend could be the more secular, folk hero, factionless, path. You're still a mythic being, but you chose no side or aligned to no power in whatever that landscape looks like.
The "other" option in the mythic census.
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Mechanically, I hope there exists some options that allow for some limited template breaking.
A new "mythic" proficiency tier which gives a +10.
A generic option that allows you to advance a prof up a step, which can be taken a few times, maybe up to a cap so a non-Fighter/Gunslinger can never get mythic weapon prof, buy they could advance to legend, etc.
Same with things like armour, saves, casting, and so on.
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Mechanically, I hope there exists some options that allow for some limited template breaking.
A new "mythic" proficiency tier which gives a +10.
A generic option that allows you to advance a prof up a step, which can be taken a few times, maybe up to a cap so a non-Fighter/Gunslinger can never get mythic weapon prof, buy they could advance to legend, etc.
Same with things like armour, saves, casting, and so on.
This is basically my point about wanting mythic to shift the success chances a little more in favor of the players.
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I think it was said somewhere that the exemplar iconic was going to also be the "iconic" of mythic in this book, so since we now know that Gorum is going to be the deity that dies and thus the deity that creates exemplars, I'm inclined to think one of the 9 mythc destinies is going to be tied with Gorum in some way too. Gorum's realm is Elysium, which kinda goes in hand with my earlier comment of Eternal Legend being tied to Elysium and heroes since Paizo is seemingly putting Apocalypse Rider and Eternal Legend as contrasts here (Szuriel would be the one to kill Gorum?)
Also, Eternal Legend could reference the fact that Gorum, even after death, would still live as a "eternal legend" through exemplars. At the same time, if Paizo is referencing Elysium from greek myth, it makes sense for Gorum AKA Eternal Legend to be the mythic destiny that creates more heroes (exemplars).
Fey, undead, angel, demon, aeon, protean, legend, elemental, draconic would be the sort of 'easy' picks in my mind. I don't really have a horse in this race as I'm not crazy interested in mythic but I do hope the mythic paths have wider appeal I guess? Like I hope one isn't 'you're a horseman of the apocalypse' as that's pretty specific considering there's only 9 total.
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So to my mind "Eternal Legend" makes me think that your legend has spread far and wide. It is told with something bordering on worship. and some of the Exaggeration is starting to become reality.
Rider of the Apocalypse to me sounds more like "Your coming has been fortold, and your actions will result in destruction"
In the first you have created the legend, in the second you are fulfilling a prior established legend.
I think "Apocalypse Rider" might be an option that gives you a superkewl mount... because with alignment going out the window, getting to be a badass hell-riding Ghost Rider type doesn't inherently require you to do awful stuff...
Apocalypse Rider is a cool as hell name which, if NOT linked to the four Daemon heavies, is wide open to interpretation.
Apocalypse Rider are the renamed version of Horseman of the Apocalypse as per Monster Core.
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I'm hoping one of the destinies is the "you are the best at magic" destiny. We've got enough powerful casters for it to emulate and it is a pretty entrenched archetype in myth.
I don't think it'd have to go as far as a best-of for each class, but the Best Mage, Best Warrior, and Best Trickster are pretty archetypal.
I think if they wanted to have something like that they would have kept the OG mythic paths from PF1e. I think the new mythic destinies have to be built around a theme because having 9 of them is arbritary, so I'd assume that all of them with have options for mages, warriors, and tricksters, though likely some would be more suited for others (the devil or hell inspired one is likely going to have more for mages and tricksters, the angel or heaven inspired one for mages and warriors, etc).
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Hopefully as split between generic and specific. I really would rather have generic ones like 1e but they don't seem to be going that way.
As a long as they are not overly specific I could make my own paths with what is given. Mixing and matching without too much homebrew of feats or abilities myself.
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It's the Harrow. PF1 Mythic paths were based on the 6 attributes, which are one axis of the Harrow. The other axis is the 9 alignments, so I think this is why we have 9 Mythic Destinies in PF2.
But with more subtlety. Not as a representative of an outer plane (say a Daemon), but as a concept that is strongly associated with an outer plane or alignment, but done in a way that does not force a given alignment (or moral and ethical stance).
So that you can have a Holy Champion with the Apocalypse Rider Mythic destiny.
Apocalypse Rider makes me think of Abbadon (NE) and Eternal Legend of Irori (LN).
I think the 7 other destinies will be likewise associated with the other alignments, through concepts that can still apply to any PC.
I'm hoping that the Mythic Destinies are separate from the Mythic Paths.
"Rules for mythic play
9 mythic destinies, including the fearsome apocalypse rider and the undying eternal legend"
The way the words are placed to me, reads as Rules for Mythic play (Mythic Paths etc.)
9 Mythic Destinies feels like something new.
At least to me.
Can't wait to learn more at Paizocon.
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I'm hoping for Archmage as an option too, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it was about joining the ranks of different groups of demigods.
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Which story is this?Some of those mythic destinies could also lean into how you became immortal.
We recently had that story about those two immortal cultivators going on a rampage/date-fights and then there's the likes of Sorshen, Baba Yaga and Jatembe.
None of these fine folk needed bits of divine essence raining down to achieve immortality. Perhaps Eternal Legend is one of the destinies for those who succeeded on their own merits.
Szuriel was once, before she became an Apocalypse Rider, a mortal paladin. So this might be the path to immortality by way of claiming the power of daemons. Seems unlikely though as it's not really a viable route for PC's, so perhaps more for those who claimed bits of her divine essence. After all if she went up against Gorum odds are good he took her down with him.
One of the Paizo blogposts about the new Tian Xia book.
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It's possible that "Apocalypse Rider" is not associated with Szuriel or whichever horsepeople at all, and more tied to "what the legend people would tell about you is." Like someone who is a "walking apocalypse" who carries death and destruction wherever they go could be poetically described as an "apocalypse rider".
Similarly an eternal legend could be someone who is able to endure literally anything you throw at them, since you cannot end their legend as they are eternal.
You just shouldn't need to be tied to or draw power from the outer planes in order to be Mythic. Like Baba Yaga is one of the most noteworthy mythic individuals in Pathfinder and she has no ties to any outer plane (by choice.)