Just . . . absurd leaps? Maybe?


Rules Discussion

Scarab Sages

Does anyone know if there is some strange weird corner case rule about leap distance increasing? Like, I know you can't increase a weapon's damage die more than once, and I know the same type of bonuses don't stack (and the same penalties don't stack) but what about other stuff?

Let's take the Crane Stance, which increases your horizontal leap distance by 5 feet.
And Dancing leaf increases it by a further 5 feet.

Does that equal a distance increase of 10? Or do the two not stack?

If I got a speed of 25, then the boots of bounding would increase my speed to 30
a 30' speed gives me a leap of 15. But the boots also increase my leap distance by 5 to 20
Then grab Powerful Leap (Skill Feat), Dancing Leaf (Monk Feat) and Crane stance (Stance Feat) and my leap becomes 35? Is that right, or is there some random rule somewhere that I'm missing?


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I don't know of any limitations on Leap.

It's funny also as Leap lacks the language Long Jump has to not Jump more than your speed, so you should be able to Leap more than your speed (even if I don't think you can Leap much further than your Speed even by taking all the feats you mention).
But overall I think it's nowhere close to strong, it's more funny than strong.


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Not that I know of. That said, monks and archetype monks landing firmly in the realm of wuxia feels right to me. I don't think I could even be mad about Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon action at the table.


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Actually, looking more seriously into it, the Ghoul Archetype gives Swift Leap: A no reaction Leap for one action. With Powerful Leap and Boots of Bounding you can Leap 25 feet. So at that stage, your movement never triggers reactions (if you don't need the last 5 feet) and ignores many forms of difficult/hazardous terrain. Considering the investment (and the level you need to get the Boots) it's still not gamebreaking but at least it's now useful.

The only issue is that the game is silent on how high you Leap when you Leap 25 feet. Considering that you stay at ground level when performing such a long jump doesn't make much sense but from strict RAW it's the case.


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SuperBidi wrote:
But overall I think it's nowhere close to strong, it's more funny than strong.

Agree. Flight comes in around L7-12 depending on class and other factors, so a strong leap that you're getting from a combo of feats and items around L6-8 sounds very much okay.


VampByDay wrote:

Let's take the Crane Stance, which increases your horizontal leap distance by 5 feet.

And Dancing leaf increases it by a further 5 feet.

Does that equal a distance increase of 10? Or do the two not stack?

This also reminds me of the currently-unanswered question of if movement speed increases stack.

Some (Monk Incredible Movement, Swashbuckler Panache) have a type to their increase and so they wouldn't stack.

Others (Fleet general feat) don't have a type.

The general rules for checks says that bonuses of the same type don't stack. It doesn't actually say that bonuses cannot be untyped. It does say that penalties can be untyped, and that this is different than bonuses.

Penalties wrote:
Unlike bonuses, penalties can also be untyped, in which case they won't be classified as “circumstance,” “item,” or “status.” Unlike other penalties, you always add all your untyped penalties together rather than simply taking the worst one.

So that does indirectly say that bonuses must be typed.

Though that may be limited only to bonuses applied to checks. And a speed bonus is not applied to a check.

TL;DR: The rules don't actually say if bonuses to things other than checks can be untyped or if untyped bonuses stack. This applies to speed increases as well as leap distance increases.

One case that we have confirmation of something being untyped and that not being an error is untyped damage.


SuperBidi wrote:

Actually, looking more seriously into it, the Ghoul Archetype gives Swift Leap: A no reaction Leap for one action. With Powerful Leap and Boots of Bounding you can Leap 25 feet. So at that stage, your movement never triggers reactions (if you don't need the last 5 feet) and ignores many forms of difficult/hazardous terrain. Considering the investment (and the level you need to get the Boots) it's still not gamebreaking but at least it's now useful.

The only issue is that the game is silent on how high you Leap when you Leap 25 feet. Considering that you stay at ground level when performing such a long jump doesn't make much sense but from strict RAW it's the case.

It should probably be a maximum of 5 feet, I feel. So it's in line with the vertical Leap distance and could conceivalby clear a lot of obstacles, while still being useable indoors.

Back in 3.5 days it used to be your max height at the apex was 1/4th of your total Long Jump distance, but at Leap distances of 25+ that means more than 5 feet so I wouldn't recommend it.

To answer OP: We've always allowed them to stack, even beyond your Speed. You could also take Staff Acrobat and use a Bo Staff to further increase that distance by 5 feet to a nice even 40.


For even more wacky fun with Leap, munch on some Firefoot Popcorn for double the normal distance (plus some really strange hazardous terrain.)


Gunslinger has Hit The Dirt, letting you leap as a reaction.
+ Kip Up to negotiate the downside.
And maybe Leap and Fire.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Finoan wrote:
VampByDay wrote:

Let's take the Crane Stance, which increases your horizontal leap distance by 5 feet.

And Dancing leaf increases it by a further 5 feet.

Does that equal a distance increase of 10? Or do the two not stack?

This also reminds me of the currently-unanswered question of if movement speed increases stack.

Some (Monk Incredible Movement, Swashbuckler Panache) have a type to their increase and so they wouldn't stack.

Others (Fleet general feat) don't have a type.

The general rules for checks says that bonuses of the same type don't stack. It doesn't actually say that bonuses cannot be untyped. It does say that penalties can be untyped, and that this is different than bonuses.

Penalties wrote:
Unlike bonuses, penalties can also be untyped, in which case they won't be classified as “circumstance,” “item,” or “status.” Unlike other penalties, you always add all your untyped penalties together rather than simply taking the worst one.

So that does indirectly say that bonuses must be typed.

Though that may be limited only to bonuses applied to checks. And a speed bonus is not applied to a check.

TL;DR: The rules don't actually say if bonuses to things other than checks can be untyped or if untyped bonuses stack. This applies to speed increases as well as leap distance increases.

One case that we have confirmation of something being untyped and that not being an error is untyped damage.

IMO, The simple (if odd) answer is that an "increase" is not a "bonus". Rage damage and Powerful Leap are not bonuses, therefore typing is not applicable (as opposed to being "untyped" bonuses).

Sovereign Court

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Feats like Nimble Hooves that increase your speed have specific language saying they don't stack with other ancestry feats that increase your speed.

That language has popped up in a couple of places, usually things like versatile ancestries that you could combine with other ancestries like Elf that also have feats that increase speed. It's been repeated enough times now that it doesn't look like an accident. In PC Core 1 it's used for Nephilim but not Elves.

That they specifically mention other ancestry feats means that they could stack with other things, even feats that increase your speed (like the Fleet feat), just not ancestry feats. If untyped increases could never stack, there would be no need for mentioning this specific restriction, and it also wouldn't make sense for the restriction to be that specific.


So there are some features that appear to let you Leap (or even Stride) regardless of your speed, such as burning jet:

Quote:
The maximum distance of the Stride is 60 feet. You can choose to Leap up to 40 feet in any direction instead of Striding.

But there's also this feat, Malleable Movement, which says:

Quote:
As normal, this can't increase the distance of your Leap beyond your Speed.
Also Jet cites
Quote:
even if that would exceed its normal maximum distance for leaping.

But is that really a rule? Or just an incorrect assumption on that feat's part?

(by the way, Burning Jet and Jet are from the same book.)

Edit: Reach for the Stars may be a better example of a very large Leap distance.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

... how does reach for the stars even work? What does expending additional ammunition mean? Can you consume ammunition that's still in your bag? Is it intended to only work with magazine weapons?


Squiggit wrote:
... how does reach for the stars even work? What does expending additional ammunition mean? Can you consume ammunition that's still in your bag? Is it intended to only work with magazine weapons?

I thought the last sentence made it pretty clear: you have to be holding the ammo/powder or wearing it to use it with the feat. So "no" to stowed in a bag, but "yes" to "worn" in a bandolier, belt, or pouch (which is where I believe most people usually keep their consumables and ammo).


Eaten by Chyzaedu wrote:
"yes" to "worn" in a bandolier, belt, or pouch (which is where I believe most people usually keep their consumables and ammo).

At least the ones who intend to reload their firearm during combat do.

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