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I was looking at the oracle. Given the new refocus rules allowing full points back all day the oracle is now penalized for relying on focus points. Before their curse advances, they are limited to a single focus point use after advancing their curse to minor for the rest of the day as advancing their curse past moderate overwhelms them.
So first encounter you can use two focus points, then every other encounter for the rest of the day you can use 1 or you become overwhelmed even if you focus to recover multiple points.
For a class heavily built on focus point use for revelation spells, this pretty terrible.
Have they given any viable workarounds for this prior to the remaster? It really puts them at a disadvantage given how other classes can get their focus points back much easier.
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Have they given any viable workarounds for this prior to the remaster?
Nothing official. At least not anything that I am aware of. The Compatibility Errata has nothing.
There might be rumors floating around that I haven't heard.
But yes, most of the rest of the APG classes that are going to be in Player Core 2 could use some rework. Probably as much as Witch got considering how little of Witch actually changed.
Oracle needs changes to focus point usage since they can't use all of the focus points that they get.
Alchemist is already the most changed class in the game so far - and that includes the Witch Remaster.
Swashbuckler could use some tweaks to how Panache works. Two checks in order to land your damage booster stings.
Investigator... Devise a Strategem and you roll a 3... Do I really need to say anything more about Investigator?
Alchemist has most changes? In player core 2?
Oracle needs a very big rework of the curse with the new Refocus rules or they are screwed.
I believe that Alchemist will get some changes and clarifications but I'm not sure about "most changes".
Alchemist has most changes? In player core 2?
I believe that Alchemist will get some changes and clarifications but I'm not sure about "most changes".
No, most changed to date. Looking through the FAQ, this is what I am seeing for Alchemist changes:
First CRB errata:
Adds Mutagenic Flashback to Mutagenist.
Changes to toolkit bulk primarily for Alchemist's tools and Healer's tools.Second CRB errata:
Gain proficiency in Medium armor.
Powerful Alchemy removed as a class feat and added as a class feature.
Added Signature Items to Advanced Alchemy.
Changed Alchemical Alacrity to stow one of the items that you create.Fourth Printing:
Chirurgeon gets crafting as complete substitution for medicine.
Chirurgeon gets to select any elixirs with the healing trait instead of just elixir of life.
Perpetual Infusions changed.
Perpetual Infusion elixir of life put on a 10 minute cooldown.
Considering that the Witch Remaster got a special familiar ability and a choice of two initial familiar-affecting focus spells as their only actual changes - Several new feats, but those are additions and other classes have gotten feat additions before. There are also some additional lore and description entries for each of the patrons, but those aren't mechanics.
So yes. I think that Alchemist is the most changed class to date. The first run printing version of Alchemist is the very different than the current version. More so than any other class between initial release and current - and that is before we see what we get in Player Core 2.
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Oracle needs a very big rework of the curse with the new Refocus rules
The Oracle strength was great focus spells with side effects and preferential treatment of focus points and their recovery. However now that everyone gets easy recovery of focus points it clearly should be rebalanced.
Then there are a few mysteries that are just underdone. Ancestor, Bones, Lore IMHO don't ever give you enough of anything to warrant their flaws. Don't get me wrong you can play them, but I would never feel like my mystery was worth the cost. For me these need work.
or they are screwed.
I'd prefer to say unreasonably disadvantaged.
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Oracle is in the list of classes that should be reworked in PC2, we already know that and as such I don't think we need to stress more the need for a rework.
Oracle is in the list of classes that should be reworked in PC2, we already know that and as such I don't think we need to stress more the need for a rework.
How would you run the focus points and curse right now that doesn't make the player feel terrible?
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How would you run the focus points and curse right now that doesn't make the player feel terrible?
I'd certainly give the choice to the player between paying a Focus Point or increasing their curse level when they cast a Cursebound Focus Spell. It solves the issue for some Mysteries but not all of them.
Anyway, the Oracle needs a deeper rebuild of Mysteries to work fine. I don't know if Paizo will take this time, time will tell (3 months, that's not much).
How would you run the focus points and curse right now that doesn't make the player feel terrible?I'd certainly give the choice to the player between paying a Focus Point or increasing their curse level when they cast a Cursebound Focus Spell. It solves the issue for some Mysteries but not all of them.
Anyway, the Oracle needs a deeper rebuild of Mysteries to work fine. I don't know if Paizo will take this time, time will tell (3 months, that's not much).
That might be enough of a fix for right now.
Anyone else have a rule for oracles that doesn't make them completely inferior at using focus points until they get Remastered? Super Bidi's seems reasonable for now, but any other ideas I wouldn't mind seeing.
How would you run the focus points and curse right now that doesn't make the player feel terrible?I'd certainly give the choice to the player between paying a Focus Point or increasing their curse level when they cast a Cursebound Focus Spell. It solves the issue for some Mysteries but not all of them.
Anyway, the Oracle needs a deeper rebuild of Mysteries to work fine. I don't know if Paizo will take this time, time will tell (3 months, that's not much).
Oracle straight up needs a fix, yeah. It had issues well before the remaster.
My personal favorite is the fact that unlike every other class in the game, it doesn't get expert in all saves until level 13 (lightning reflexes). Even witches, wizards, and sorcerers have that by level 9. It's hilariously painful to get hit with basic Reflex saves when your bonus is that low and you're not a Dex-based class.
Thing is, while they get reflex saves to expert 4 levels later than wizards, they get will saves to master 10 levels earlier than the cloth casters. I don't hate that trade. You can use canny acumen to bump up your reflex save, but having a master save with the success to crit success mechanic is much more valuable, IMO.
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I would love to see a reworked oracle. They're so hilariously bad, that I've never been tempted to play one.
Why should I be penalized just for wanting to use my class abilities? Curses and other bassackwards class abilities like them just never made sense to me.
After what Paizo did to the wizard class though, I wouldn't go around placing heavy bets on an oracle power boost though.
Actually it depends on which Oracle you choose. Life, Tempest and Cosmos the drawbacks of the curse aren't actually that bad, while the advantages are "good enough" to very good even. But some indeed are almost unplayable.
But having to find an archetype to use focus points is indeed weird.
I do like Super B's solution, but that also depends if there are powers you can actually use that are worthwhile. As with more focus powers they range from absolutely terrible to good. A makeover to get the powers more in the same ballpark would help.
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I would love to see a reworked oracle. They're so hilariously bad, that I've never been tempted to play one.
Why should I be penalized just for wanting to use my class abilities? Curses and other bassackwards class abilities like them just never made sense to me.
After what Paizo did to the wizard class though, I wouldn't go around placing heavy bets on an oracle power boost though.
If you ditch the curse there's no reason for the class to exist. You can just use a divine sorcerer instead. Double edged sword mechanics aren't everyone's jam, but they are very much part of the oracle experience and fun for people like myself.
Also, the curse penalties don't simply penalize your character, they change how you play them. I've been playing a battle oracle from level 3 to 12 and having a damn good time with him. My slotted spells are as strong as any other caster, but my at will damage via bastard sword is hilariously than cantrips. With True Strike and Demoralize rounding out my options I always have a zillion interesting things to do with my actions and my turns never feel stagnant. If I'm dropped my fast healing will get me back up. Now that I hit major curse I also have the option to go full barbarian with a +6 status bonus to damage. Has the AC or save penalty occasionally but me in the ass? Sure. But less often than you'd think. My defenses improve more from swinging my sword than casting a shield spell, and my pervasive orc superstition offsets the save penalty.
The objective problems facing the class are pretty straightforward:
1. As mentioned, their refocus advantages were nullified by the remaster and their overwhelmed curse state needs to be revisited.
2. They have slim pickings for feats, and what they have tends to be janky. They really need the feat glow up clerics got in player core 1.
3. Curses may not be well balanced against each other, but given how wildly divergent subclass balance remained I wouldn't hold my breath here. (I say may because each oracle curse plays so differently from another that comparing them is much harder than just looking at their penalties.)
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Can confirm, part of what drew me to the Oracle was their curses. I enjoy having to work around cool flavourful disadvantages like that. I definitely did notice that some looked much harder to work around than others.
The only game I played an Oracle in was in Strength of Thousands. Being able to pick up an archetype that uses focus points made that floating unusable focus point issue sting less, but it was still noticeable.
I've said it before but what I hope for most is for Flames and Tempest oracles to get easier access to the spells that their curse literally works around. Having to feat tax to have spells that fits the curse is pret-ty lame. (my GM was nice and gave me the Oracles+ 3pp where I just got an extra spell that fit my curse which instantly made it better)
The problem I find with oracle's curses is that you really aren't "playing around them" but rather you are forced to do something specific to avoid getting penalties. The only one I think really makes you play around the curse is ancestor, because the flat check is pretty much an auto-succes most of the time so you kinda do whatever your ancestor is good at during that turn. Meanwhile, ash wants you to stay in in close quarters of your enemy but by doing so you effectively screw all the martials of your party, battle wants you to strike every turn, bones wants you to have have a stash of healing potions next to you, cosmos wants you to stay as far as you can from any creature trained in Athletics, flames wants you to fling fire spells, life wants you to be a heal bot, lore wants you to be good at RK, tempest wants you to fling electricity spells, and time wants you to be buff bot.
Do you see a trend here? In most cases, the curse forces you to do something you were already going to do anyways, but you get okay-ish to moderate bonuses to do that something but severe penalties if you even try to do something else. This IMO makes all oracles feel same-y and boring.
Oracle is in the list of classes that should be reworked in PC2, we already know that and as such I don't think we need to stress more the need for a rework.How would you run the focus points and curse right now that doesn't make the player feel terrible?
Personally for the simplest way: Just remove the overwhelm rule. If you're already at the max level of your curse and you use a focus point, you just stay there.
the curse is ancestor, because the flat check is pretty much an auto-succes most of the time
15-20% failure chances are significant. For me they happen a lot and they tend to clump together.
The thing is you get 3 actions in a turn, and normally I want to do a couple of different types. So I'm facing a failure chance every turn. Personally I don't cope with that well. So Ancestor is not for me. Other people don't mind so much.
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I like the idea of ancestors, but I feel like if you're going to be pushed toward random actions that can change every round it should at least feel rewarding.
I know it's a taboo, but the bonuses should really be typeless. Nothing worse than realizing your martial boon isn't actually doing anything because someone else in the party has a buff is a really cruddy feeling.
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At the very least they could have let us CHOOSE our curses. That would have allowed for more character concepts to be realized.
Seems we lost that feature when moving into 2e.
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PF1 Mysteries is not something I'd want to see coming back: Most Oracles were taking the same unimpactful curses so Oracles felt very samey. At least in PF2 you get the curse that is in line with your Mystery.
What I miss is PF1 long list of curses. But that'd ask for a lot of work to add much more Mysteries. Maybe there could be feats giving you some bonus but adding extra low-impact Curses to your character.
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PF1 Mysteries is not something I'd want to see coming back: Most Oracles were taking the same unimpactful curses so Oracles felt very samey. At least in PF2 you get the curse that is in line with your Mystery.
What I miss is PF1 long list of curses. But that'd ask for a lot of work to add much more Mysteries. Maybe there could be feats giving you some bonus but adding extra low-impact Curses to your character.
People are always going to choose what they think is best. PF2 oracles didn't change that. Except now instead of choosing only the best curses, now they're only choosing the best mysteries. Less choice is still less choice. In an ideal world both the curses and the mysteries would be amazing and so there wouldn't be a perception that some are better than others.
For the immediate, I think it would help the Oracle a lot if the overwhelm mechanic were removed. I'd perhaps also let the class completely refill their focus pool when they Refocus, and if we want to be really generous I'd also give them Divine Access for free at level 1.
Beyond that, I definitely think the class could use some significant changes with the remaster, as I don't think they're really where they're supposed to be. I could be wrong, but the way I see it, the Oracle's shtick is being this divine caster who can specialize really well into a niche via their mystery, and who gets to be ridiculously strong at what they do in exchange for a big drawback. Currently, though, not every curse really supports specialization in this way, with Ancestors in particular going against this principle. When the Cleric and soon the Animist can also specialize without saddling themselves with the same drawbacks, it feels to me like the Oracle could be given clearer standout strengths, and not just weaknesses.
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I like the idea of ancestors, but I feel like if you're going to be pushed toward random actions that can change every round it should at least feel rewarding.
I know it's a taboo, but the bonuses should really be typeless. Nothing worse than realizing your martial boon isn't actually doing anything because someone else in the party has a buff is a really cruddy feeling.
Just replace Status bonus with Circumstance bonus in the benefits.
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People are always going to choose what they think is best. PF2 oracles didn't change that. Except now instead of choosing only the best curses, now they're only choosing the best mysteries. Less choice is still less choice. In an ideal world both the curses and the mysteries would be amazing and so there wouldn't be a perception that some are better than others.
No, people don't always choose the best unless the best seems unrelated to the flavor of their character. If I want to play a Tempest Oracle I won't play a Cosmos Oracle because it's better.
Also, separating Curses and Mysteries means that every Mystery has to be balanced with the competition and same for the Curses. By combining them you can have weak Mystery low impact Curse balanced with good Mystery high impact Curse which equates to more freedom in design.
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By combining them you can have weak Mystery low impact Curse balanced with good Mystery high impact Curse which equates to more freedom in design.
I would agree that, that was a strength had Paizo kept giving us more oracle options. But as a seemingly one and done class, what exactly are they designing to which we could attribute such strengths?
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I would agree that, that was a strength had Paizo kept giving us more oracle options. But as a seemingly one and done class, what exactly are they designing to which we could attribute such strengths?
I'm hoping for a PC3 with a reprint of all the non-remaster classes in various books (especially the ones strongly impacted by the Remaster like the Psychic) doubled with tons of PC options, especially feats and subclasses, for all the classes in the game. I think it's time to release a player facing book with lots of options as the ones that have been released since APG are mostly Archetypes (and more and more specialized ones). Even if Archetypes are nice and such, I feel we have now too many of them when a lot of classes are screaming for more options and feats.
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By combining them you can have weak Mystery low impact Curse balanced with good Mystery high impact Curse which equates to more freedom in design.I would agree that, that was a strength had Paizo kept giving us more oracle options. But as a seemingly one and done class, what exactly are they designing to which we could attribute such strengths?
There have been a few more oracle feats printed and at least one new mystery (time from Dark Archive.)
Oracle is my favorite spontaneous caster. I have played a Comsos one that was amazing fun, a fire Oracle that was slightly underwhelming and a Life Oracle that was a little over powered in my opinion.
As far as the focus point/revelation spell fix, I think Superbidi's idea could work as a fix, but would rather see them add another level to the curses so that they don't quite ramp up to passing out so fast, and that the benefits and set backs could be spread out a little more.
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PF1 Mysteries is not something I'd want to see coming back: Most Oracles were taking the same unimpactful curses so Oracles felt very samey. At least in PF2 you get the curse that is in line with your Mystery.
What I miss is PF1 long list of curses. But that'd ask for a lot of work to add much more Mysteries. Maybe there could be feats giving you some bonus but adding extra low-impact Curses to your character.
I used to play a flame mystery oracle in 1e. The first few revelations I picked up included fire resistance and the ability to see through flame/smoke/etc. Now, if I try to rebuild that character with the 2e ruleset, my character not only gets more and more visually-impaired as her curse progresses, but eventually starts spontaneously combusting as well, and there is nothing I can do to mitigate that without playing a completely different class.
It'd be easier to rebuild my old oracle as a fire kineticist or diabolic sorcerer in 2e than as an actual oracle - then again, the character was also styled as a professional demon hunter, and at this point, that basically boils down to "play something holy" (fat chance as an Asmodean from Cheliax), "use something cold iron" (so weapon user or a couple of metal spells from Rage of Elements), or thaumaturge.
Say what you will about the curse being more "thematic" now, but tying curses and mysteries together means oracles have lost a significant degree of customization flexibility.
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If oracles, psychics, and other classes that rely heavily on focus spells get upgrades to those abilities in the Remaster, than I sure hope that classes that have focus point-adjacent class abilities--like the investor's Unstable mechanic--get upgrades as well.
It would be a crying shame if everyone got to use their fancy pants abilities as much as three times an encounter, renewing them all with only ten minutes, but the poor inventor was still limited to one cool trick per encounter with only 20% chance of getting to use it more than that, in comparison.
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PF1 Mysteries is not something I'd want to see coming back: Most Oracles were taking the same unimpactful curses so Oracles felt very samey. At least in PF2 you get the curse that is in line with your Mystery.
What I miss is PF1 long list of curses. But that'd ask for a lot of work to add much more Mysteries. Maybe there could be feats giving you some bonus but adding extra low-impact Curses to your character.
I used to play a flame mystery oracle in 1e. The first few revelations I picked up included fire resistance and the ability to see through flame/smoke/etc. Now, if I try to rebuild that character with the 2e ruleset, my character not only gets more and more visually-impaired as her curse progresses, but eventually starts spontaneously combusting as well, and there is nothing I can do to mitigate that without playing a completely different class.
It'd be easier to rebuild my old oracle as a fire kineticist or diabolic sorcerer in 2e than as an actual oracle - then again, the character was also styled as a professional demon hunter, and at this point, that basically boils down to "play something holy" (fat chance as an Asmodean from Cheliax), "use something cold iron" (so weapon user or a couple of metal spells from Rage of Elements), or thaumaturge.
Say what you will about the curse being more "thematic" now, but tying curses and mysteries together means oracles have lost a significant degree of customization flexibility.
Yeah this is very fair.
In some ways I can see the perks of customization and letting people pick their curse. If only min-maxers or optimizers are liable to pick the "least bad" curse anyway, then who cares how flavorful the "assigned" option is for flames/storms/death/whichever - on the other hand, I think most non-optimizer players are also liable to not pick something too crippling, because of course they are. So things could definitely get samey.
I mean, more samey than every oracle of a given mystery having no choice in their curse at all?
Even if some 1e curses were chosen more frequently than others, there was at least the option to take a different one. I thoroughly enjoyed brainstorming oracle concepts and seeing how different mystery/curse pairings impacted the character as they developed.
That's not possible anymore.
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I mean, more samey than every oracle of a given mystery having no choice in their curse at all?
Even if some 1e curses were chosen more frequently than others, there was at least the option to take a different one. I thoroughly enjoyed brainstorming oracle concepts and seeing how different mystery/curse pairings impacted the character as they developed.
That's not possible anymore.
I do think it's more samey than all oracles of a mystery sharing a curse, yes - I've seen a lot of oracles played in PF1 (definitely into the double digits), and maybe one in five took a curse that was consequential to their character in any meaningful way, with the other 80% often taking the same set of maybe 2-3 curses. The mysteries differentiated playstyle to some degree and were pretty widely varied (mostly regardless of which was the most optimal, so long as they were sufficiently powerful), but if each of those mysteries had a specific curse associated with them, I'd have definitely seen more variety. On top of that, a specific curse for a mystery allows for much more interesting curse design - the curse associated with the Life oracle wouldn't work if you didn't have the Life mystery, and allowing them to be designed together definitely leads to less same-y gameplay than if they had to be generic.
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I'm with Arcaian on that. I haven't seen that many Oracles but when it comes to curses they were always the same (tongues being the indisputed winner at my tables).
Most players were not playing their Oracle for the Curse but for the Mystery. As such they were just taking the least affecting Curses which were always the same.
More combinations don't necessarily equate to more variety.
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I fail to understand how every 2e flame oracle having the exact same curse by mandate of the game system is somehow more variety than 1e flame oracles that at least had the option of different curses.
I get that many oracles showing up with the same handful of curses got "samey", but you literally have less choice now than you did in the past.
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Part of why I want another level to the curses is so that the first entry state can be extremely mild for every curse, and then it be the second tier where things start ramping up. Then Oracles can refocus down to the 1st state every time but use all their focus points each combat if they want. Many of the curses just get too bad too fast for oracles to ever go to stage 2.
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I fail to understand how every 2e flame oracle having the exact same curse by mandate of the game system is somehow more variety than 1e flame oracles that at least had the option of different curses.
I get that many oracles showing up with the same handful of curses got "samey", but you literally have less choice now than you did in the past.
It's the illusion of choice.
If you get many possible choices, but most of them are never chosen, they might as well not exist.
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I prefer the curses tied thematically to the mystery. I think it makes for a cooler class. But the curses can be unplayable at times unless you build around them, which the oracle is not great at.
Hopefully they get a cleric like glow up in Player Core 2.