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There was a similar thread to this awhile back, and I may be echoing the sentiments from there, but I believe it boiled down to this: "You can't expect PF2 to play like PF1."
What I mean is, PF2 looks to reward "wide" play - giving players a plethora of options that can be very situationally useful. This means that you won't always get the "most efficent" use out of your choices. You may have feats that don't get used as often as others or have class features that you never touch.
In PF1, it was common to trade away everything that didn't contribute to the one thing you did to the best of your ability. We had alternate racial traits to winnow away the "useless" skill feats, favored classes, and fairly set feat progression. That's not to say that these were bad, but just that you shouldn't expect that same mentality in PF2.
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You also have proficiency with longspears that you'll probably never use, so what? If you don't want to use shields that's fine, just don't.
I am not following what you are looking for with Shield Block. Sure it in a free feature because shields were a standard thing in all TTRPGS, Shield Block allows you to simply play a defensive fighter that doesn't have the stomping power of a d12 weapon but does have +2 AC that a shield brings with it. Unironically Barbarian and Champion get the most use out of shield block.
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They learnt to use a shield in basic fighter training. Others must pay a feat for that.
The Bastard sword is a nice weapon, if it would have the same features than longsword and greatsword, costing the same, who then would use any other?
Is a weapon that let's you have a free hand when required (like grabbing), and change to greater damage die with a single action. There must be some tradeoff.
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The reason is game design. Ruzza explained it, but let me go into more detail.
The combat abilities that a fighter automatically gains at 1st level are expert proficiency in simple and martial weapons and unarmed strikes, trained proficiency in advanced weapons, trained proficiency in all armor and unarmored defense, Reactive Strike, and Shield Block. The fighter can also chose a 1st-level fighter feat that opens up a new combat style or favors an existing one. This lets the fighter specialize.
Combat Assessment makes the fighter more tactical with knowledge about the opponent.
Double Slice opens up dual-weapon fighting.
Exacting Strike favors making multiple Strikes during a turn.
Point Blank Stance favors ranged attacks from nearby.
Reactive Shield saves the fighter from Raising a Shield as an action.
Snagging Strike can make an opponent off-guard to a freehand fighter's second Strike.
Sudden Charge gives more mobility on the battlefield.
Vicious Swing favors high-damage-dice weapons, such as two-handed weapons.
But the advantage to specialization is capped by so-called tight math. In order to keep the effectiveness of each class inside the bounds predetermined for the character's level, specialization gives only a small reward. The PF2 design does not let any 1st-level fighter fight as well as a 2nd-level fighter, regardless of the tradeoffs they are willing to make.
Sometimes the fighter might even abandon their specialty because circumstances favor another style, such as a Sudden Charge fighter standing still and sheathing their sword in order to pull out a bow against a flying opponent. The tight math has no objection to using many different combat styles, because the 1st-level fighter fights at 1st-level strength in most combat styles. With the specialization, the fighter is at the top strength for their level, and without the specialization the fighter is at the average strength for their level, but they fit within the bounds of the tight math.
And don't scream "Useless!" because Shield Block is not useless to a two-handed-weapon fighter. Imagine that the fighter is facing a creature that deals massive damage. It is a level-appropriate encounter, so that massive damage is balanced by an awful AC and low hit points. And the fighter's job in the party is to prevent that creature from hitting their teammates, who have fewer hit points than the fighter. So what does the fighter do if they have a round to prepare? They sheath their greatsword and pull out their backup shield, which is stored next to their backup shortbow. Shield Blocking is the best tactic, regardless of what the 1st-level fighter chose as their specialty.
PF2 strategy requires switching tactics based on the opponent's strengths and weaknesses.
Most edged, straight swords are slashing weapons with Versatile P or piercing weapons with Versatile S, because in real life a straight sword with an edge can be used for slashing or for thrusting. I think Versatile was left off the bastard sword because its Two-hand d12 ability makes it so powerful that any additional weapon traits would be overkill. Remember that two-handed-weapon fighter who had to pull out their backup shield? If that fighter had wielded a bastard sword rather than a greatsword, then they would not have had to spend a action drawing a one-handed weapon to go their shield.
Prices in PF2 typically are based on the level of the item, and the level of the item is based on the level at which a character is expected to start using it. The two-handed d12 trait on the bastard sword feels like an advanced technique, so the designers priced it halfway between a 1st-level permanent item such as Consumed Aeon Stone, 9 gp, and a 0th-level mundane item such as a longsword, The bastard sword's price is in the same range as the advanced melee weapons, such as dwarven waraxe 3gp and sawtooth saber 5 gp. If a character wants an advanced technique, then the game makes the character pay for it in feats, action taxes, or gold.
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Shield focused fighters need shield block, and there are enough first level feats a sword and board fighter might pick that you can't just make it an extra part of a particular level 1 feat. Most classes that get shield block at level 1 can support alternate weapon styles.
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Honestly this complain about Shield Block is senseless.
About Bastard Sword the design was made to trade of versatile for Two-Hand 1d12. Other wise it will work like Katana and becoming a 1d6 weapon due balance reasons.
Honestly in a universe where we are complaining that Monks need to waste a feat as feat tax to get access to monk weapons someone is complaining that fighters are not needing to have an action tax to use Shield Block in a class focused in be versatile with weapons (and shields).
I honestly don't understand.
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Supposing your assumptions are correct, the 20% of fighter player who DO want to use a shield would probably be pretty annoyed having to spend a general feat for it.
You aren't LOSING anything for having gained Shield Block as a starting feat.
Is an extra 3gp really breaking the bank? It might make a tiny difference at character creation, but this feels like such a small complaint.
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I think people here are interpreting this the wrong way.
A Reaction is a must for every character as it is a massive boost in action economy.
The fact that you get an unusable one as a Fighter is a "feels-bad moment" that should be avoided.
Fighters should have been allowed to pick up a thematic reaction, whether it is a Dueling Parry, a 2H Block, or a Shield Block.
Same goes for Paladins, and hell, why not Monks, Rogues and Rangers?
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But the fighter get both AoO and shield block! How can a fighter complain about its use of reaction! The ones to complain could be spell casters.
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USELESS!
This game is not PF1 where you can trade everything away for something else. Sometimes you are stuck with some class defaults. This is a different game. You don't need to waste time with that sort of deep optimisation.
If you don't want a shield yes it is useless to you.
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I think people here are interpreting this the wrong way.
A Reaction is a must for every character as it is a massive boost in action economy.
The fact that you get an unusable one as a Fighter is a "feels-bad moment" that should be avoided.
Fighters should have been allowed to pick up a thematic reaction, whether it is a Dueling Parry, a 2H Block, or a Shield Block.
Same goes for Paladins, and hell, why not Monks, Rogues and Rangers?
Fighters already get Reactive Strike. Having a second, less generically useful reaction doesn't take anything away from that.
Fighter chassis designed that way.
Bastard sword design is based on balance so other weapons are equally attractive. Too many traits on one weapon lead to overuse.
Yeah, every class has a chassis that is front-loaded so every reasonable interpretation of that class will work at low levels. That means "give shield block" to any class that you assume might want to use a shield.
If you're not going to use it, then you can just forget about it, but you're not going to get something back for not using something built into your chassis. That thing might not be for your character, but it will be for someone elses.
Like my Champion of Shelyn who used a glaive didn't have any use for Shield Block, but so what?
I have just bought the Remastered Core Rules & GM's guide and am severely disappointed!
I was hoping for a couple of changes but of course was disappointed!
Why is Shield Block still a starting Feat for a Fighter, when it is only useful if you are not using two handed weapons, two weapons or single handed weapon and free hand?
Likewise Bastard Sword is still the only straight bladed sword or knife that doesn't have Versatile. Also the cost makes no sense either, four times the cost of a long sword or twice the cost of a Great Sword!
Fighters were already in a very strong spot, so they don't need much more in terms of changes. +2 over everyone at all times is a huge boost, and a lot of their feats are crazy good (even if a bit plentiful). Just because you have features you don't always use doesn't make them bad; Shield Block is a primo feat, and is actually a general feat. Getting a general feat that other people would otherwise need to invest into is a huge boon in and of itself, even if you won't (always) use it.
As for Bastard Sword not having versatile, it already poaches the best of both the Longsword and the Greatsword by nature of it already being a D8 1h with the flexibility of becoming a D12 2h with a single action, so asking it to be even more powerful when it's already probably the most powerful sword type in the game is beyond me. Very few weapons even come close to how potent the Bastard Sword is in this edition.
You could even nerf the Bastard Sword to be Two-Hand D10 and it would still be a pretty potent weapon to choose while not invalidating Greatswords.
It seems like "give yourself the ability to stab people with a bastard sword" is something that could be done with a stance. Since the actual reason it doesn't have versatile is "balance vs. other weapons", but you could say that "with a long grip so you can switch between one and two hands, it's difficult to stab with one hand, and with a hold it to be able to drop a hand while still control the blade makes it more difficult to stab" but you overcome that with special training i.e. a stance.
Also there is the fighter's concept, they are great at a lot of fighting styles even ones you put no feats into.
They can easily pick up any weapon and use it just fine. That is what the class does. They have innate options and shields are one of them.
I feel bad. I feel like I’m missing out on something for free I won’t use, but I don’t know what it is.
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I feel bad. I feel like I’m missing out on something for free I won’t use, but I don’t know what it is.
So you are felling bad because the class (along almost all martials) have proficiency in all martial weapons but you are only able to use one at time? Or to have many different actions but it's unable to use all them at time?
I understand this point when we are talking about dead slots, when you have a slot of anything but it's unable to use it and doesn't get anything good to compensate it due some bad design or bad choice. But its not the case when we are talking about a trade-off like a weapon/shield option.
So notice that all this is a matter of choice, you are making a real-time trade-off when you choose a weapon selection and not a "I'm simply loosing my free Shield Block reaction". Including this is a choice that many other classes cannot do so freely requiring some extra resource like a feat or magic in order to get same or similar options being way more clunky.
So this is pretty different from for example to get the Shield Block feat with a Barbarian but for some reason now you are using a two-handed weapon. This may make you "fell bad" because you "wasted" you General Feat slot to get a thing that you are now unable to use. Yet many people will do this and doesn't fells bad because they still consider this a tactical choice that they can made like "these enemies doesn't proves to have a great hit/critical rate to me so its better now to drop my shield and use my bastard sword with my both hands to kill them faster than try to fight more defensively with a shield risen".
@YuriP - now I feel terrible. I was being utterly sarcastic.
Still, you make extremely good points, and having just seen the help you gave about using Foundry in that other thread, you should be commended for being such an attentive and dedicated community member. We are lucky to have you share your thoughts and knowledge. Again, apologies, and thanks!
I am actually playing a 2nd Level Fighter with Power Attack/Vicious Swing at the moment - primarily uses longsword and shield. I think, after reading this thread, I might switch to one-handing a bastard sword. I can always drop the shield and use an action to adjust grip if I want to really go to town on something...
That would only be if your GM has somehow decided fighters need a houserule buff, since under normal rules you can never retrain into something that wasn't a choice without retraining (so the idea that exchanging the Shield Block bonus feat for something else is already covered under Retraining rules is simply wrong). I don't think you'll find widespread agreement that fighters need to be buffed, even with something small.
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IMO, exchanging the "useless" feat is already covered by the retraining rules. So, Bob's really your uncle.No. You can't retrain non-selectable features by default. And this is non-selectable feature.
And this policy opens Pandora's box: now all players would want to exchange something for their characters.
I don't think you'll find widespread agreement that fighters need to be buffed, even with something small.And free 1st level General feat is actually huge.
I would most certainly NOT allow this. As stated, its NOT following the rules and is a significant power up for those (probably a majority) fighters who never (or very rarely) shield block.
While I'm sometimes willing to create house rules to power up a weak class there is no way I'd do so to power up what is generally viewed as one of the most powerful (if not most powerful) martial class in the game.
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Rolling my eyes here. Minor thing remains minor.
I think you're pretty much missing the point.
IF the character actually uses their shield, then shield block is pretty much worth a general feat (I say pretty much to try and avoid arguments on where it is on the general feat power spectrum).
But if you're playing a two handed weapon fighter, or an archer, or a two weapon fighter, or a free hand fighter then shield block becomes much less valuable. Still has SOME value since even somebody specializing in another fighting style will still sometimes want to use shield block. But much, much less (especially since the monetary cost to keep a useful shield for blocking is non trivial).
For THOSE characters swapping Shield Block with an arbitrary general feat is very clearly a power up. It is slightly less powerful than just giving those fighters an extra general feat but only slightly. And there are quite a few useful general feats.
And, of course, if Player A sees Player B getting a "free" feat from whining then they're going to want a free feat too. Why can't my druid (especially Pre remaster) ALSO swap out their shield block for a general feat? Why can't my cloistered cleric swap out Proficiency with their dieties weapon for something? Why can't my lizardfolk swap out his claws attack for something?
etc. etc. etc
It is
1) Broken in this specific instance
2) Leads to a massive issue of what can be swapped out for what.
You say you like to make massive sets of house rules. Fine. Do what you want. Most of us, however, don't.
Edit to add: From a purely mechanical point of view, the 2 huge advantages that Humans get that are almost universally considered to make them one of the best ancestries mechanically are
1) Extra General Feat
2) Yet another general feat OR a 1st level class feat.
Especially at low levels general feats can be HUGELY powerful. As in almost character defining or almost meaning the difference between life and death. Eg, grabbing a longbow on a caster, or grabbing armor or better armor for many characters.
Yeah, I would prefer to just give everybody a free first level general feat than to allow classes who get shield block to represent "proficiency with shields" to trade that away for something
PF2 is decidedly not like PF1- you shouldn't want to make your character have fewer options in order to focus on the best ones.
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But if you're playing a two handed weapon fighter, or an archer, or a two weapon fighter, or a free hand fighter then shield block becomes much less valuable.The fighter is the 'good at a flexible variety of combat styles' class. If the player is looking for a 'specialist at hitting things with a big honking weapon' class, I'd suggest Giant Barbarian or maybe Inexorable Iron Magus.
I don't think the OP meant it this way, but the ask is sort of an unintentional, well-meant, non-powergame version of "ooh. I really want that +2 to hit and AoO reaction. Now how can I convince my GM to let me combine these 'best of' fighter features with the 'best of' features from another class..."
It may be well meant but that is CERTAINLY a powergame request.
The fighter IS pretty much the best (or, at least, tied for the best) 2 handed weapon class out there. That +2 to hit and reactive strike are pretty darn massive.
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Very similar arguments have been made for the wizard in the past.
The answer is simple, the class is a package and it includes things you may or may not use.
All the features went into balancing the class with others and other classes also are packages that offer things you might never use too.
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Unfortunately, my interpretation of your diatribe is that the "correct" fighter build is "sword and board," to which I say, piffle.
That's not at all what they're saying - and why is this even an argument? It's a free thing built into the chassis, it takes nothing away because there was nothing else to be had, and it's the same thing as not using any of the myriad of proficiencies a class chassis gives you in favor of another.
There's no need for a house rule, imo, because there's nothing to 'fix'. I've never ever seen someone argue something that you get for free should not be there - I just don't get it.
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The only person who said sword and board is the "correct" build is you. No one else has. It's there for those who want to use it. Almost every class has something like this (druid, wizard, Magus....). Now I could sort of see this being an issue if you cost you something, but it doesn't. And for a fighter it absolutely makes sense that they would learn to use a shield as a part of their basic training.Ah, but it did cost the player something. It cost them a choice.
No, it doesn't. It's not taking away from a Fighter feat or anything else. It's just a free thing built into the chassis.
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I can't believe the wizard was deprived of a choice of ??? because they got Drain Bonded Item.
You're aware that taking away Shield Block from the fighter doesn't mean they gain anything as a result, right?