I don't get why so many people on each side of this argument just can't fathom where the other side is coming from. Durations decrement at the start of each of your turns, so the possibility of consecutive Breath Weapons makes sense from that POV. That's why I thought it worked like that until recently. But a round on which you've used a Breath Weapon is not a round where you can't, so the impossibility of consecutive Breath Weapons makes sense from that POV.
Agreed. I can understand why there is confusion about this because of how the duration rules are written and because of how these cooldowns are presented to seem very much like a duration.
If I cast Befuddle the rules are very clear. The target is affected immediately once the spell is cast, and at the start of my next round the duration will decrease to 0 and the effect will end at that point.
So a breath weapon with a result of "can't use this for 1 round" because the 1d4 rolled a 1 certainly sounds like a duration that would decrease to 0 at the start of my next round and I would be able to use it immediately. But that isn't how it is intended to work.
Still the best way to describe this is that the cooldown is a separate effect that doesn't start until the first round that you are actually prevented from using the action with the cooldown. So while the 1d4 may roll a 1 and you have "can't use this for 1 round", that counter doesn't tick down at the start of your next turn. The start of your next turn is the first time when you are unable to use the effect, so that is when its cooldown effect starts. It will tick down to 0 at the start of the following round.
But I have already said exactly that previously in this thread. So if people don't understand or agree with that, I'm not sure that saying it again is going to change that.
Hell hound has a one-action breath weapon. It's as strong as a two-action breath weapon, so it might be a very unfortunate typo.
That is fairly interesting.
I'm tempted to say that since the Hell Hound could use the breath weapon again that same round because of its action cost, that the round that it uses it does also count as a round that it can't use it. So then if the 1d4 rolls a 1, that the "can't use" effect has already started and would tick down to 0 at the start of the Hell Hound's next turn.
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Count me as someone who always ran it as a 1 on a d4 meant it could use it again the next round.
Although most of the dragon fights I have ran were in PF1 where on page 90 of the bestiary it says:"Using a breath weapon is a standard action. A dragon can use its breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds"
PF2 seems to be worded different on page 105 of B1 it says: "It can’t use Breath Weapon again for 1d4 rounds."
Where PF1 says "can use" and PF2 says "can't use"
I'll admit that I certainly was running it incorrectly, even if the times I rolled a 1 were rare and never had a PC death. The reason I ran it wrong wasn't because I was an idiot, it was mainly because I never bothered to delve into the semantics that closely since it never caused a problem for my games.
A lot of people are saying it locks you out for the next round, but you can easily say a round goes by between the end of your turn and your next turn. A full round has to go by for you to get another turn after all.
A more precise way to look at it is if you use two actions to breath weapon and then one action for anything else, a full round is up on your next turn after you use two actions, thus you wouldn't ever be able to do a two action breath weapon two turns in a row. Rounding it out to start the lock out at the end of your turn also gets the same result for most abilities and is likely easier for most to understand.
It would have been much more clear if it was worded "this ability can't be used for the next 1d4 of the users turns". Thus letting us know that getting a 1 on a d4 didn't mean getting lucky and having the ability right back.
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With a 1d4 recharge, I do:
1
Round One: Dragon uses breath weapon
Round Two: Dragon cannot use breath weapon, must do something else
Round Three: Dragon may use breath weapon freely (and roll anew)
2
Round One: Dragon uses breath weapon
Round Two: Dragon cannot use breath weapon, must do something else
Round Three: Dragon cannot use breath weapon, must do something else
Round Four: Dragon may use breath weapon freely (and roll anew)
3
Round One: Dragon uses breath weapon
Round Two: Dragon cannot use breath weapon, must do something else
Round Three: Dragon cannot use breath weapon, must do something else
Round Four: Dragon cannot use breath weapon, must do something else
Round Five: Dragon may use breath weapon freely (and roll anew)
4
Round One: Dragon uses breath weapon
Round Two: Dragon cannot use breath weapon, must do something else
Round Three: Dragon cannot use breath weapon, must do something else
Round Four: Dragon cannot use breath weapon, must do something else
Round Five: Dragon cannot use breath weapon, must do something else
Round Six: Dragon may use breath weapon freely (and roll anew)
=)
Except this proposes that 1D4 = 1D4-1, which makes no sense as a mathematical construct, since you can have results of 1=0. And no sane person would propose 1=0.2×2=3, by the way. It's an official rule.
I would like a citation for this, since I am not aware of any mechanics where this happens in this edition. I do know that's how it worked in PF1, and at least in that case they actually expressed it as a rule, functioning more as a "Specific Trumps General" than as a "Reminder of Basic Laws of Mathematics" thing, which I can acknowledge.
The difference here is that people are literally saying 1D4 = 1D4-1 tracks as a mathematical construct and that is how they interpreted the mechanic, and the rules don't say that at all. (The only issue then becoming that it's in a poorly located place, but one battle at a time here.)
Everyone, really quick, I have a question for you: When you count to ten do you start by saying "Zero, one, two..." or do you start with one?
There is the answer to your question.
You technically start with 0, but you don't say 0 because that's the point at which you start, as you are counting up from that point. Starting by saying "zero" means you are counting up from -1, which doesn't track since that's not the established start point. Put into combat perspective, this means the count started before combat even began, which only makes sense if the ability was used just slightly before combat started, but certainly isn't the standard assumption, either.
Even ignoring that technicality, the issue is that, looking at a number line, you aren't measuring how many counts from the previous, you are measuring how many counts you skip, which is what the rules clearly intended to mean, especially when we take the "no breath weapon on consecutive rounds" clause to its logical conclusion.
Hell hound has a one-action breath weapon. It's as strong as a two-action breath weapon, so it might be a very unfortunate typo.That is fairly interesting.
I'm tempted to say that since the Hell Hound could use the breath weapon again that same round because of its action cost, that the round that it uses it does also count as a round that it can't use it. So then if the 1d4 rolls a 1, that the "can't use" effect has already started and would tick down to 0 at the start of the Hell Hound's next turn.
The table includes values for unlimited‑use abilities (ones that can be used at-will) and limited-use ones (which can be used once or, like a Breath Weapon, once or twice but not on consecutive turns).
Breath Weapons are an example of an ability that cannot be used multiple times in consecutive turns, which debunks this concept. The action consumption shouldn't be a factor in this, given that it makes no such exception for it.
It's a countdown. That by definition also makes it a duration.
Be it long time home groups, short term pickup groups, convention groups, or random society groups; online or off, for over 30 years, they have all--without exception--ruled that a roll of a 1 meant the creature could use their breath weapon in the following round, potentially allowing for consecutive rounds of breath weapon use.
This notion that it is not a duration and that you must skip a round, right or wrong, is absolutely a foreign concept in my (extensive) experience.
Anyone else notice how Mark Seifter likes to shake things up with his unofficial comments?
I have a different experience and have been playing since the red book in the box set came out. You roll a one, means next round no breath, following round yes.
Since you DM a lot, makes me wonder if this isn't how you been running the rule while other DMs have been running it differently all these years.
It would definitely be interesting to poll a wide array of DMs to see how they've been running it.
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I don't get why so many people on each side of this argument just can't fathom where the other side is coming from. Durations decrement at the start of each of your turns, so the possibility of consecutive Breath Weapons makes sense from that POV. That's why I thought it worked like that until recently. But a round on which you've used a Breath Weapon is not a round where you can't, so the impossibility of consecutive Breath Weapons makes sense from that POV.
I never saw it as a duration. Duration has a pretty clear meaning that is defined in a different area for spells or abilities that last past a round and start counting down the round you use them. Durations are consistently spelled out.
Nowhere does it say breath weapon has a duration. People turning it into a duration seems like an odd choice. It's like in their mind they're seeing it the same as Haste duration 1 minute. It doesn't work like that as the breath weapon is an ability with what I refer to as a recharge time. It is not continuous.
You use it, then it takes 1d4 rounds to recharge. If you roll a 1, it takes 1 round to recharge. Nowhere in abilities of this nature does it imply or spell out a duration.
It doesn't even really name it. It's just how a breath weapon or similar ability works with the closest word that applies being a recharge period.
That's why it seems odd some are seeing it as a duration when nothing in the ability acts in anyway like a duration ability. Duration is a pretty clear in term in these RPGs and duration abilities start and last until the end of the time. That is not how a breath weapon works.
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I saw this thread keep going for a bit and really wondered why.
Just look at the kobold breath feat that says,
"You can’t use this ability again for 1d4 rounds."
You use the ability on round 1 and roll a 1. Now you cant use this ability for 1 round. If you could use this ability on round 2 then you wouldn't have had any rounds where you couldn't use the ability. You would have used it on round 1 and used it again on round 2.
Thats not what its telling you to do.
Giving the rounds numbering helps.
Round 1 - use breath weapon. roll 1d4, yay I rolled a 1.
Round 2 - I can't use the breath weapon because I need to go 1 whole round without using this ability. Remember cant use this ability for 1 round. Doesn't just say cant use this ability for the rest of this round.
Round 3 - Alright since I only rolled a 1 and have gone a whole round where I couldn't use the ability I can now use it again. I use it and roll a 2.
Round 4 - Cant use it
Round 5 - Cant use it
Round 6 - Alright I went two whole rounds where I couldn't use it and now I can again...what? is everything dead? aw come-on why couldn't you save me at least one enemy to roast again?
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I would like a citation for this, since I am not aware of any mechanics where this happens in this edition.
2×2=3, by the way. It's an official rule.
Just providing this citation, not commenting on the breath recharge discussion. General Rules - Game Conventions - Multiplying: "When more than one effect would multiply the same number, don’t multiply more than once. Instead, combine all the multipliers into a single multiplier, with each multiple after the first adding 1 less than its value. For instance, if one ability doubled the duration of one of your spells and another one doubled the duration of the same spell, you would triple the duration, not quadruple it."
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Again, the argument "well you can't have breath weapons going off on consecutive rounds" doesn't hold water when dragons have such a high chance of recharging it for every round use anyway.
I am not arguing intent btw, the intent is clear via the comment and the creature builder excerpt.
But people pushing the idea of it being unbelievable that people would gravitate to the duration rules to standardise how round tracking works because there is no other standard... is silly.
Also every GM I have ever played with has run breath weapons as next round on a 1. Including pf1e and 3.5e.
But it is weird to have a standardised round counting system, that always specifies when it is end of round otherwise... and doesn't in this one niche scenario.
Again, happy to run it as intended, just find the insistence that it couldn't sensibly be read any other way is bizarre.
Again, the argument "well you can't have breath weapons going off on consecutive rounds" doesn't hold water when dragons have such a high chance of recharging it for every round use anyway.
I am not arguing intent btw, the intent is clear via the comment and the creature builder excerpt.
But people pushing the idea of it being unbelievable that people would gravitate to the duration rules to standardise how round tracking works because there is no other standard... is silly.
Also every GM I have ever played with has run breath weapons as next round on a 1. Including pf1e and 3.5e.
But it is weird to have a standardised round counting system, that always specifies when it is end of round otherwise... and doesn't in this one niche scenario.
Again, happy to run it as intended, just find the insistence that it couldn't sensibly be read any other way is bizarre.
Ability to recharge from ancillary effects (critical strikes, hit with X damage type, etc.) isn't a reason to discount the intent, since those either require separate actions/checks, or for PCs to use bad tactics, to function, and this mechanic isn't something available to all creatures that possess a Breath Weapon ability. The rule doesn't make such an exception for that, not unlike how it doesn't make an exception based on how many actions it takes to activate the listed ability, if any.
Really, the only thing that is bizarre is that it's listed in some random creature building entry instead of, say, as an example in a Breath Weapon ability entry in a Beastiary index.
Again, the argument "well you can't have breath weapons going off on consecutive rounds" doesn't hold water when dragons have such a high chance of recharging it for every round use anyway.
How so? To get consecutive rounds off of a recharge, the dragon would need near-perfect conditions, not be flying, not need to reposition, etc.
Oh there's a page 2. I was wondering why the discussion ended. Anyway, my 5e campaign saw my dragons recovering the breath weapons way too often. I'm not going to miss consecutive Breath weapons.
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If the '1 round' duration ends at the start of the next round, the '1 round' until you can use again is up at the start of the next round.
It's not a one round duration though. The word duration doesn't even show up.
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It is not a duration though.It is not 'the length of time something lasts, or the time it takes for something to be completed'?
You are confusing two different concepts together.
Duration is for spells and other effects. That is where the rule that you are using is coming from.
Breath Weapon cooldown does not use the Duration rules. It randomly generates a number of rounds that you can't use your breath weapon. There is no effect Duration to measure.
I also expect that it is not allowed to Dismiss the 'unable to use Breath Weapon' effect. Also because there is no effect.
so what is this thread about?
The rules for using breath weapons, specifically the "Can't use for X rounds" component many of them have.
so what is this thread about?
Originally it was about the length of time of Breath Weapon abilities. Specifically when the ability can be used again.
You are the best person to announce the purpose of your revival of the thread after nearly a year.
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But... TOZ, Finoan, and Eoran have made it clear that there is no effect preventing you from using the Breath Weapon every round...
Yes. There is no Effect preventing using the Breath Weapon.
There is a rule preventing it though.
A custom rule written into the Breath Weapon ability, not using the Effect and Duration rules.
So if you use a Breath Weapon and roll the d4 and it comes up a 1 - that means one round that you can't use the Breath Weapon.
It does not mean that it is a Duration that starts the round that you used the Breath Weapon and ticks down to zero at the start of your next turn - making it available to use on that next round. Because it is not an Effect and it doesn't use the Duration rules.
If you do think that you should be allowed to use the Duration rules, answer me this:: If you roll a 1 for your d4 rounds when you use Breath Weapon, and then it ticks down to zero and is usable the next round: which round meets the criteria of a round that you "can't use Breath Weapon"?
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Pointless thread revival was pointless because the rules already covered this. You cannot use Breath Weapon on consecutive turns without an ability or effect recharging it for you, I already cited the rule that states this, if nobody wants to read it or chooses to ignore it for their home games, that's their prerogative, but it's still incorrect from a RAW (and RAI) standpoint.
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Pointless thread revival was pointless because the rules already covered this. You cannot use Breath Weapon on consecutive turns without an ability or effect recharging it for you, I already cited the rule that states this, if nobody wants to read it or chooses to ignore it for their home games, that's their prerogative, but it's still incorrect from a RAW (and RAI) standpoint.By RAW the statement in the Monter Building rules is incorrect, but it is a statement of the RAI...
The RAW needs to be corrected to reflect the RAI.
Was written the 'cooldown' is a duration, and 1 round would clear at the start of your next turn.
The stated intent would be 'until the end of your next 1d4 turns' to set the clearing at the end of your turns, starting with your end of your next (1) turn through up to 4th following turn... as covered in the general rule on durations.
It doesn't need to be changed because the rule already clarifies it for you, and supersedes your general math rules, terrible and incorrect as they are (tell me again how 1D4 = 1D4-1). Breath Weapons aren't intended to be used in consecutive rounds, and the rules clearly state such. If it was meant to be used in consecutive rounds, it would be 1D4-1, or simply not have a recharge timer at all. It can't be made any more apparent than this. Stop trying to propose arguments for something that it cannot apply to, because saying it has a "cooldown" makes no sense, because the word "cooldown" does not exist in any PF2 book anywhere. If you do manage to find one, I highly doubt it has any mechanical implications, because it's not present on the Archives of Nethys anywhere, and if it was indeed a genuine game term or mechanic of the game, it would be used as a word. But it's not.
If you don't like the rule, just acknowledge you are going to houserule it for your table and move on, because there is absolutely nothing you have that can thwart text outright contradicting your claim.
... please reread what you have linked...
"Anything you do in the game has an effect."
Is Breath Weapon something you are doing in the game?
If so, it has an effect... th effect is to, both, do area damage and set a duration until you can use Breath Weapon again.
You have misconstrued not having a Duration entry with not having a duration.
The Breath Weapon entry doesn't say anything about having a Cooldown... it describes a cool down, by setting a duration until the ability can be used again.
And in all of that ... you still didn't answer the question that I proposed.
which round meets the criteria of a round that you "can't use Breath Weapon"?
I'm hiding this thread now.
Happy gaming.
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I do think cooldowns should have been mentioned in the Duration rules. Perhaps something like:
"If an ability says you can't use it again for a certain number of rounds, don't decrease that duration at the start of your next turn after using that ability. This is because the round in which you used the ability isn't a round in which you cannot use the ability."
It's not a huge stretch. Those rules establish decrementing at the start of the turn as how it works for effects that last a number of rounds, and a layperson will certainly think breath cooldowns qualify. Although those rules call out two other ways to count, nothing in breath cooldowns remotely suggests that either of those methods should be used instead. It lasts a number of rounds, so of course people will think of it as a regular duration to be decrement at start of turn.
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I fing hate walls of text but if this is the only way...
In the glossary & index of PC1
round A period of time during an encounter in which all participants get a chance to act. A round represents approximately 6 seconds of game time. 11, 435
durations measured in rounds 426since some of you are dead set on counting it as if it was a duration, let's check that page first
PC1 p.426 is the first page of the Effects section
So this entire block is talking about the duration of EFFECTS. The "cooldown" of a dragon's breath weapon and similar abilities that "can't be used for X rounds" aren't effects. They're a...Most effects are discrete, creating an instantaneous effect when you let the GM know what actions you are going to use. Firing a bow, moving to a new space, or taking something out of your pack all resolve instantly. Other effects instead last for a certain duration. Once the duration has elapsed, the effect ends. the rules generally use the following conventions for durations, though spells have some special durations detailed on pages 302. (pages 302? lol typo find. also that's spells, so we won't be detouring there just fyi ~B)
For an effect that lasts a number of rounds, the remaining duration decreases by 1 at the start of each turn of the creature that created the effect. Detrimental effects often last "until the end of the target's next turn" or "through" a number of their turns (such as "through the target's next 3 turns"), which means that the effect's duration decreases at the end of the creature's turn, rather than the start.
Instead of lasting a fixed number of rounds, a duration might end only when certain conditions are met (or cease to be true). If so, the effects last until those conditions are met.
Some effects can be ended early with the Dismiss action (page 419). An effect with the sustained duration lasts until the end of your next turn, but it can be extended as described in the Sustain action (page 419).
This is great! It explains everything perfectly.
I just wish more people on this thread had read it.There would be less misunderstanding.
Thank you Baarogue!!
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and a layperson will certainly think
My experience has been the opposite. None of the new players I've had with breath weapons have assumed that "Can't use for one round" means you can use it every round. It's players who are fairly deep in the weeds in PF2 who have been trying to weasel their way into shortening their cooldowns.
I don't think trying to weaponize a hypothetical average joe to make your point really helps anything, tbh.
I'm starting to have second thoughts about Seifter's interpretation. I've run an adventure featuring a dragon twice now.
And the dragon almost never recovers its breath by letting enough rounds pass, under either interpretation.
The dragon recharges their Breath Weapon whenever they score a critical hit with a Strike.
The vast majority of dragons have this feature, making it easy to use consecutive Breath Weapons, no countdown required. So now I find it hard to believe that the developers meant for this to never happen.
And I'm also having second thoughts about the argument that the turn on which the Breath Weapon is used cannot be a turn on which the Breath Weapon cannot be used. I don't think that actually matters. The round on which the Breath Weapon was used doesn't need to be one where it can't be used. It needs to be one where it can't be used again. After the initial use.
And in the Building Creatures rules, maybe we're not supposed to take that one comment about Breath Weapons not being consecutive to always be true. It's still generally true, since there's only a 25% chance of rolling a 1.