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The basic aura is not really invisible it gives some minor notable effects and usually is defined by you:
Clear as Air specifically conceals your aura.
But, IMO, not something like Desert Wind or Thermal Nimbus. Which will give away your location.
At least that's how I'd rule it.
If the designers did not mean for that to interfere with skill actions like Stealth or Invis or what not, they should have made that pretty clear.So you are proposing that the Devs created a +1/+3 Stealth bonus for Air skill junction which is mechanically impossible to use, because it can only be used when gate is open, and according to you when gate is open Stealth doesn't work?
I think the RAI must be the exact opposite. I think the devs' selection of Stealth for this gate-open bonus very clearly indicates that they think Stealth can be used with an open Air gate.
The air gate is unique in the stealth ability if the player takes that skill junction, which I guess some may do for roleplay reasons. It seems to be what you are all hanging your hat on for walking around with fully open gate while hiding and avoiding notice.
Why exactly would the fire gate be hidden? Or the earth gate? Or the water gate? Why did they write down the following:
Through your kinetic gate, elements flow from an elemental plane to orbit your person. The form and appearance of this kinetic aura are unique to you. Examples include a chaotic wind orbiting the body, fragments of floating gravel, colorful wicks of flame, stars of raw metal always changing shape, floating snowflakes, or splinters dancing in the air. If you can channel more than one element, pieces of all your kinetic elements appear in the aura.
This alone contradicts the stealth rules which are heavily GM fiat in so far as they require concealment or cover and a lack of visible indicators you are there.
All you are proving is this is GM fiat. There is not going to be any consensus provable in regards to having a Kinetic Gate open all the time when it comes to actions like Avoid Notice and such because the rules of the gate and things like Stealth are contradictory.
The air gate is unique in the stealth ability if the player takes that skill junction,There is absolutely nothing in the RAW to indicate any of that. Not that air gate is unique in stealth ability. Not that taking the skill junction changes the gate to make that unique.
Meanwhile, it is RAW that this skill junction provides a bonus to stealth.
It seems to be what you are all hanging your hat on for walking around with fully open gate while hiding and avoiding notice.I do hang my hat on the mechanical rules which say the power grants a bonus to stealth. To me, that means it grants a bonus to stealth. The mechanical rules "+1 to stealth" do not mean "makes stealth impossible."
the rules of the gate and things like Stealth are contradictory.The mechanical rules are pretty simple and pretty clear. They just don't accord with the image in your mind of what it looks like for a kineticist to be surrounded by their aura. You then choose to prefer what you think it looks like to what the mechanical rules say.
Maybe think smaller breeze, barely perceptible flecks, water that could be a sign it may be spitting, with no obvious source. I suspect the image in your head is something more like a mini tornado of elements surrounding a blank spot in the middle. Or Pig Pen. But the text lists examples of how it could look, not how it must look. The text also says it's unique to the kineticist. So I think there is plenty of room in the RAW - yes even taking into account the text you quote - to say that when the kineticist wants to keep their aura on while sneaking, they can do that.
I listed the relevant rule. You can look up the stealth rules as well.
No, it is not my wish. It is merely another rule that is GM fiat as so many are.
Nowhere does it say you can walk around with the gate open and the aura active and the DM has to allow this and you to do everything you wish. Nowhere.
What if the player decides to have it be a floating fire around them? Or chunks of stone? Then what? The DM still ignores that?
The kinetic aura is an active aura with a clearly visible manifestation which is at odds with the stealth rules.
This clearly makes all of this GM fiat. If you want to tell your DM your earth aura is some barely noticeable sand in the air and your DM decides that's ok or that creatures with darkvision can't clearly see this sand in the air, then that is there option.
But you do not have a clear ruling stating the kinetic aura can be open while doing everything else and the DM has to ignore it.
There are clear rules about what can be seen with Perception checks and visible manifestations and requirements. If a DM wants to say that your aura manifestation interferes with the necessary concealment or cover necessary for stealth or to be undetectable, that is their option and you have no rules text whatsoever to counter this.
It is GM fiat.
For me all that depends on the social situation. The aura takes 1 action to activate which always indicates to me it's usually supposed to be active most of the time in Encounter mode, not randomly walking around.
That is why Elemental Blast and Stances are built into the aura activation.
As a DM, I certainly let Kineticists activate their aura if they know trouble is coming just like I would let players prebuff.
As far as constantly walking around with an aura up, I think that is something that should penalize you. They don't write it in, but just as some are saying it's mostly cosmetic so is the idea that it takes actual effort to open a kinetic gate and have elements flowing through you into the material plane. It shouldn't be an all the time thing.
That is why I'm happy the designers left the full effects of what it means to have your gate open as GM fiat. Some GMs will have zero problem with a player walking around with the gate open and some will view it as looking pretty goofy if the kineticist is at the dinner party with fire and earth floating around them. I tend to fall on the side of the person that thinks a kinetic gate takes effort and should be open when appropriate, not wandering around with it open all the time anymore than I think a warrior should be wandering around with their sword out all the time as that would get tiring as well even though no rules are written specifically to show awkward and fatiguing carrying a sword around all the time would be.
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I for one think that the kineticist's aura would absolutely make you stand out more by default. It could make you easier to spot, or give the wrong impression during a social situation.
However, if the kineticist were to use Stealth to Hide or Sneak, or take some other discreet action, I like to think that they could minimize (but not negate) their aura in much the same way as someone hiding behind a boulder might try to minimize their profile. Or like the aforementioned slowing of the heart rate.
I see no reason to unduly punish players here, particularly without any rules support whatsoever (and quite the opposite in some cases).
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For me all that depends on the social situation. The aura takes 1 action to activate which always indicates to me it's usually supposed to be active most of the time in Encounter mode, not randomly walking around.
That is why Elemental Blast and Stances are built into the aura activation.
As a DM, I certainly let Kineticists activate their aura if they know trouble is coming just like I would let players prebuff.
As far as constantly walking around with an aura up, I think that is something that should penalize you. They don't write it in, but just as some are saying it's mostly cosmetic so is the idea that it takes actual effort to open a kinetic gate and have elements flowing through you into the material plane. It shouldn't be an all the time thing.
The point is that nothing states that the kineticists needs to be penalized due have their aura enabled. Including they take the same effort to turn it on or off (1-action Channel Elements to enable it, 1-action Dismiss to disable it) so not even keep it is more harder than switch an interruptor.
Your kinetic aura automatically deactivates if you're knocked out, you use an impulse with the overflow trait, or you Dismiss the aura. Though you can't use new impulses while your kinetic aura is deactivated, ones you already used remain, and you can still Sustain any that can be sustained. Stance impulses are linked to your kinetic aura and end when the aura deactivates.
Including it's curiously a bit more harder for kineticist to Dismiss its aura than to channel it (a kineticist in rage is unable to dismiss its aura due the concentration trait and can trigger some reactions).
That is why I'm happy the designers left the full effects of what it means to have your gate open as GM fiat. Some GMs will have zero problem with a player walking around with the gate open and some will view it as looking pretty goofy if the kineticist is at the dinner party with fire and earth floating around them. I tend to fall on the side of the person that thinks a kinetic gate takes effort and should be open when appropriate, not wandering around with it open all the time anymore than I think a warrior should be wandering around with their sword out all the time as that would get tiring as well even though no rules are written specifically to show awkward and fatiguing carrying a sword around all the time would be.
No the designers didn't do this. They write that aura effects are unique to player only. Nothing states the the GM controls how its works including the they are unique per char they are in player's fiat IMO:
Through your kinetic gate, elements flow from an elemental plane to orbit your person. The form and appearance of this kinetic aura are unique to you. Examples include a chaotic wind orbiting the body, fragments of floating gravel, colorful wicks of flame, stars of raw metal always changing shape, floating snowflakes, or splinters dancing in the air. If you can channel more than one element, pieces of all your kinetic elements appear in the aura.
It's not to the GM that decides how it works but to the player to make its aura looks cool and it's not made in order to penalize the player.
Also the Channel Elements states clearly that the "The kinetic aura can't damage anything or affect the environment around you unless another ability allows it to":You tap into your kinetic gate to make elements flow around you. Your kinetic aura activates, and as a part of this action, you can use a 1-action Elemental Blast or a 1-action stance impulse. Your kinetic aura is a 10-foot emanation where pieces of your kinetic element (or all your kinetic elements, if you can channel more than one) flow around you. The kinetic aura can't damage anything or affect the environment around you unless another ability allows it to. Channel Elements has the traits of all your kinetic elements.
So I agree with yellowpete, the elements floating around you is more like in a flavor context than in a mechanical gameplay or roleplay context changing it chances to make your checks. The idea is that it works more like a curiosity like someone surrounded by aeon stones orbiting the head than a "a wild dangerous kineticist with its aura enable appears, run for your lives!".
See the aura more like in the view point of Avatar: The Legend of Korra where the people don't really care if someone is bending some element around of you for some random reason. Golarion is pretty close to this where while you walking through the strees someone is casting some spell to do some random things (like a merchant using Prestidigitation to clean its products) any no one are really carrying about this. A kineticist walking around with its aura enabled are just one more curious fantastical thing happing around the city only.
OK that in some places and some social situations your aura enabled might not be proper. But I don't think that any kineticist needs to be mechanically punished due this. It's like to punishes the oracles due its constant curse effects.
You are the center of your own tiny tempest, ever surrounded by wind and rain that worsens the more you tap into your elemental powers. Even when you are calm and at rest, your hair and clothing are blown about by gentle winds, you are slightly damp, and your touch often comes with a static shock.
You see flames and smoke wherever you look. These flames might be imagined, or they might be a preternatural glimpse of the metaphorical fires that empower the entire multiverse—but you always see them. Fires flare noticeably (though not dangerously) in your presence, you occasionally smoke slightly, and your body is almost painfully hot to the touch.
Your body is slowly being consumed by the fires of your internal power, purifying you with each passing day. You are occasionally wracked with dry, wheezing coughs, and wherever you go you leave behind a fine trace of ash that falls from your body.
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In 1st Edition there were clear rules in place indicating that kineticist auras were very "loud."
There is no such rule in 2nd Edition, which leads me to believe that there was an intentional change by the developers towards allowing for more manageable kineticist gameplay.
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That's just an emotional acceptance Psychic with their Psyche Unleashed: "You're constantly surrounded by the visual manifestation of your psychic magic," is the first thing Unleashing Psyche does.
I'm not sure I understand why sneaking would be impossible even with an obvious aura up.
My wood kineticist has roots growing around him, and blossoms and pollen in the air. That is indeed obvious if you're looking at him. If you haven't even seen him yet because he's sneaking and hiding around a corner, I don't see how it makes it any easier to spot him in the first place. Yes if you do see him you'll also see the aura iif it's active. And you will, because he's not at all sneaky, but that's a separate question.
For me all that depends on the social situation. The aura takes 1 action to activate which always indicates to me it's usually supposed to be active most of the time in Encounter mode, not randomly walking around.
That is why Elemental Blast and Stances are built into the aura activation.
As a DM, I certainly let Kineticists activate their aura if they know trouble is coming just like I would let players prebuff.
As far as constantly walking around with an aura up, I think that is something that should penalize you. They don't write it in, but just as some are saying it's mostly cosmetic so is the idea that it takes actual effort to open a kinetic gate and have elements flowing through you into the material plane. It shouldn't be an all the time thing.
The point is that nothing states that the kineticists needs to be penalized due have their aura enabled. Including they take the same effort to turn it on or off (1-action Channel Elements to enable it, 1-action Dismiss to disable it) so not even keep it is more harder than switch an interruptor.
Your kinetic aura automatically deactivates if you're knocked out, you use an impulse with the overflow trait, or you Dismiss the aura. Though you can't use new impulses while your kinetic aura is deactivated, ones you already used remain, and you can still Sustain any that can be sustained. Stance impulses are linked to your kinetic aura and end when the aura deactivates.Including it's curiously a bit more harder for kineticist to Dismiss its aura than to channel it (a kineticist in rage is unable to dismiss its aura due the concentration trait and can trigger some reactions).
That is why I'm happy the designers left the full effects of what it means to have your gate open as GM fiat. Some GMs will have zero problem with a player walking around with the gate open and some will view it as looking pretty goofy if...
And that is GM fiat.
You as a GM will allow a fully open kinetic aura to have no visible effect on their ability to avoid notice. I will have it affect them.
Does this mean it's automatic? No. But does it mean if you're hiding behind a pillar with your 10 or 20 foot kinetic aura active with water or fire floating around you that I won't claim that disrupts cover? Nope. It will disrupt cover because the ability states you have a visible manifestation within the range of the kinetic aura that can be spotted by others. Nowhere does it say this is invisible.
If a kineticist is sneaking behind out of the visible range of the target, can they use stealth? Sure. It may not generate sound unless the player states it generates sound.
So it would be on a case by case basis which is the essence of GM fiat.
If a player says, I'm using stealth with my Air aura which is a very light, almost silent breeze blending with the surroundings obscuring the sound of my breathing and footsteps which is how I gain my stealth bonus, then cool. I as a GM go with that. They can stealth.
If some other player is I have a floating fire and sharpened jagged pieces of metal floating around and I want to hide behind this 3 foot diameter column, then no, I'm not goin for that.
When something is GM fiat, it doesn't mean you automatically disallow something. But it does create a situation where the player and GM interact to decide exactly how an ability like kinetic aura interacts with the game world for a variety of situations.
I think it is best when Paizo designers do this as it allows both sides to ensure there is verisimilitude to the ability both as the player wants it to look and how the DM thinks that should interact with the game world.
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Is it truly unbelievable that there is a tradeoff for playing a class with extremely flamboyant elemental powers, insane movement options, terrain/environment shaping/changing/destroying, and all day blasting features to have the drawback of not being able to play like a Skyrim Stealth Archer who can L3 behind any corner regardless of their ongoing effects and aura to end up being hidden?
If there is one adjective that describes the class it is "Flashy" and that does not jive, at all, with trying to remain hidden or difficult to notice.
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It is truly unbelievable, to me, that there could be magical masters of the elements that are apparently wholly unable to control their own element(s) well enough to minimize their presence. That's the opposite of being a master of the element(s).
A pyrokineticist should have more control over his fire than say, a rogue who happens to be on fire.
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The way I see it...
- There isn't any kind of stated difference in kind between the kinetic auras of the six elements, as far as stealth is concerned.
- Junction usefulness should not depend on having a specific impulse or feat.
- Wind Kineticists with Skill Junction gain a bonus to stealth when they have their auras up.
- By extension, "Kineticist has their aura up" shouldn't be mutually exclusive with the ability to make useful stealth checks. Preferably, it shouldn't interfere significantly with most standard ways of making stealth checks.
Honestly, I'd probably count it at about the level of "has their weapons out" here, too. Like, if you're trying to sneak into a well-guarded area by not being seen, then having a weapon out isn't that big a deal. If your'e trying to nonchalant your way in y not having anyone think that anything is amiss, then having the elements churning around you might well interfere with that.
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It will disrupt cover because the ability states you have a visible manifestation within the range of the kinetic aura that can be spotted by others.The ability states no such thing. The word 'visible" doesn't appear anywhere in the Kineticist description in RoE (first appearance - p64). The word "spot" or "spotted" doesn't appear there either. But I guess my keyword search could be wrong. Tell us the page number and give us a quote of the RAW where it says 'visible manifestation' which 'can be spotted by others,' and I'll certainly take a look at it.
The entry under Kinetic Aura simply says "Through your kinetic gate, elements flow from an elemental plane to orbit your person. The form and appearance of this kinetic aura are unique to you." Then gives some illustrative examples.
As RavingDork says, your argument seems to be referencing PF1E material. The 1E Kineticist 'gather powers' description says "Gathering power creates an extremely loud, visible display in a 20-foot radius centered on the kineticist, as the energy or matter swirls around her." But that does not apply to PF2E; first, because 'gathering powers' was a specific action that would reduce costs for blasts which simply doesn't exist in the PF2E kineticist, and second because even if it was a description of the aura, 1E power descriptions don't apply to 2E powers. In any event, PF1E Gather Powers is certainly not the same thing as the PF2E aura. Are you, perhaps, applying your memory of this PF1E power description to the PF2E aura?
What exactly do you think elements flow from an elemental plan to orbit the person means? Does it state the elements are invisible? I don't see that.
I'm not sure why some players need the word visible written down when the above statement makes it clear what you're doing: opening an elemental gate that brings elements of the elemental plane into existence around you that are visible.
The stealth rules are very clear about requiring cover or concealment. If your kinetic aura is interfering with cover or concealment as a bunch of floating elemental matter in a 10 foot radius around you would do, then I as a DM am saying you do not have concealment or cover to stealth if the target can see you why you have an open kinetic gate.
I don't know why you keep arguing that the words "visible" have to written for you when it is very much the case that it is visible with the description of what opening the gate does and what you can make the kinetic aura look like.
It's not like drawing a weapon. It's not even comparable. It is a 10 foot radius kinetic aura of floating elements. Since I play one, it is a 20 foot aura in my character's case.
If you are wandering around with a 20 foot aura of elements floating around you, you are going to disrupt your cover or concealment in regards to stealth.
As far as controlling it to be invisible, I don't see that written down anywhere either. It seems that the designers neither wrote down the elements clearly invisible or wrote down the aura had to visible because they very much left it up to the player and GM to work out how that works.
It is impossible to cover every possible rule scenario. Which is why certain rules like Kinetic Auras, stealth, and a variety of other rules that can't be covered are left more open for a DM an player to work out in play.
You seem to want to be able to say, "I have a blazing aura of flame and chains around me in a 20 foot aura but I can stealth just fine because the rules don't say I can't."
The DM asks, "Are these flames and chains visible?"
Player, "Yep. Totally visible in a 20 foot radius. Warm around me. Metal chains floating in the air. I'm making my stealth check and you can't do anything about it Mr. DM."
Sorry, that isn't the case. Kinetic Aura is definitely an ability that is a GM and player have to work out how that operates in the world.
This argument has gone about as far it can go. Some of you believe you can walk around with your gate open all the time with no penalty shoving it down the DM's throat you can do what you want and some of us believe the DM should be able to have some say in how the Kinetic Aura interacts with the world in terms of Stealth and social interactions. We're never going to agree.
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It's not like drawing a weapon. It's not even comparable. It is a 10 foot radius kinetic aura of floating elements. Since I play one, it is a 20 foot aura in my character's case.
There's nothing in the base Kinetic Aura ability that states that the aura fills up the entirety of the aura volume.
A geokineticist does not become some rolling 10-foot diameter mass of earth every time they activate their kinetic aura. A pyrokineticist does not become a fireball. Rather it is far more likely that a few rocks and some dust appears in the geokinetecist's aura, or the waving of heated air for the pyrokineticist. The intensity can vary wildly between these two extremes based on the desires of the player and the limitations set by their table and the rules.
In any case, a master of elements that can control elements can make the flaming wisps of their aura into wisps of smoke, or the floating stones hug their body much more closely, or, well, whatever we want. It's clearly up to us. And nothing in the game says we can't use stealth, while several things indicate the reverse.
Just because you can only seem to imagine the kinetic aura being used one way doesn't make your interpretation the correct one or that any of the rest of us have to adhere to your limited interpretation of the rules.
The DM asks, "Are these flames and chains visible?"
Player, "Yep. Totally visible in a 20 foot radius. Warm around me. Metal chains floating in the air. I'm making my stealth check and you can't do anything about it Mr. DM."
I think we're all VERY aware that is is not likely to play out that way in reality.
More realistically, it would probably be something more like the following:
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IMO, if they wanted the aura to have an effect on Stealth, they would of said it.
I mean, someone isn't going to automatically spot you just because it got a little dusty.
Be suspicious? Sure. It wouldn't be crazy if they started making Seek checks.
So something like...
Fire Kineticist moved within 10'.
Guard 1: do you smell smoke?
Guard 2: yea, where is i coming from?
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The way I've been running Kinetic Auras versus stealth is that barring something like Clear As Air which specifically suppresses your aura, any creature that enters your kinetic aura gets to make a perception check against your stealth DC to detect you. It's not that it's super flashy so that everyone within a mile knows where you are, but if you're actually inside of the aura you're going to tipped off to something being unusual enough to like "wonder where that breeze is coming from, or why it's so hot right here" in a way that can compromise stealth.
But people across the room won't necessarily notice your aura if you're being stealthy, you're just detectable in a larger area than other people.
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StuffYeah, the problem is you're overlooking the fact that the Aura is a 10 ft emanation meaning that the manifestation would include your square, all squares surrounding you, and every square that surrounds THOSE squares, all of which would include your element.
There is no hiding that.
You folks need to stop making up rules and enforcing them on others.
There is nothing anywhere that says the entire emanation is filled up edge to edge with observable phenomena.
All it says is that there are elements within the area. An earth aura might just be a few dozen pebbles floating an inch off the ground at your feet.
Or it could be a hard to miss tornado of harmless rocks.
It can be anything the player desires within whatever other limitations set by their table and the written rules.
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StuffYeah, the problem is you're overlooking the fact that the Aura is a 10 ft emanation meaning that the manifestation would include your square, all squares surrounding you, and every square that surrounds THOSE squares, all of which would include your element.
There is no hiding that.
Is it OK if my Kineticist gets concealment then ? Not to hide of course but just for the miss chance.
So... re-reading the rules text, I can start to see why people think that this should ruin stealth. I get where they're coming from. I don't think it overrides the roles-based arguments I made before but I can see the point. That's especially the case with Clear as Air's "If you activate your kinetic aura, the impulse conceals its elements". Like, presumably that has some sort of meaningful effect. If it didn't do anything, then they wouldn't include it, right? Finally, I notice the following:
"The form and appearance of this kinetic aura are unique to you"
...and further notice that some kineticists are going to care about stealth... and others aren't. So... it seems like it would make sense to have it be character-dependent, and player-chosen. Like, Yoon's aura is a bunch of birds made out of fire, constantly flying around her. If you've got an aura like that? that's going to do a fair bit of damage to your ability to be sneaky. Of course, Yoon isn't really big on "sneaky". If you decide that you are big on "sneaky", though, you can choose to have your own aura be more low-key. Perhaps your wood aura is a few of those little whirling seeds, or a flow of pollen. A fire aura might be trails of smoke, or even just heat. Water could be mist... or if you're a more bombastic type, then water could be flowers made of ice, glittering in midair for all to see. Either way, really.
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An emanation issues forth from each side of your space, extending out to a specified number of feet in all directions.
The Aura is an emanation, and is described as your element floating, flying, or merely being present in the 10 ft range. Trying to argue that just because the emanation is that large doesn't mean that it extends that full space is utter nonsense on the caliber of saying that an emanation of light doesn't actually extend out to the full reach of the effect. The size of it is clearly defined and the manifestation of your aura is 100% going to be present in EVERY square of the impacted range.
Fire Auras are fire being present in that area of your Aura and you cannot justify it simply being "a glint of flame in the eyes" unless your eyes are 20ft across. Simialrly, the flavor text doesn't in any way suggest that an extra 1mph of air current is even CLOSE to what it is supposed to represent, instead the example given for Air is chaotic wind circling the Kinetecist and the range defines how wide that would be. Unless you're in an envionrment that is surgically clean, free of all dust, dirt, and debris it would absoutley be visibe and even then you'd still be dealing with it making noise and creating a pressure difference in the air that you could feel.
You can take cover and gain concealment just fine and making stealth checks to do those things is fine, but trying to argue that the Aura can ever be treated as invisible is poppycock, Kinetecists with their aura up have very clearly visible and likely audible signs of the presence even if they are completely invisible.
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Yoon's aura might be flashier because she's not trained in Stealth, wheras a more stealthy kineticist might have a more subdued aura. The mechanics behind skills can represent all sorts of things, not the least of which could be natural talent, magical influences, practice, or big bright fiery phoenixes.
I'd even argue that it's not static, that it can evolve and change throughout the kineticist's life, or even just because they willed it so (they are masters if the elements, after all).
It genuinely seems like the Kineticist would benefit from something on the order of a "conceal spell" feat that represents "you are good at being sneaky while channeling your element". The Wizard, Witch, and Bard getting feats like this indicate that they're better at it than the Sorcerer, Druid, and Oracle... but the latter has the option of an 8th level feat from the Spellmaster archetype that wouldn't work for the kineticist.
Like "I want to be sneaky, I will spend feats on things that let me be sneaky" seems like a reasonable fantasy to indulge on any class.
But even air (the stealthy element) is likely going to lose stealth when doing things like "turning into lightning" or "calling down thunderstorms" whereas a wizard has the option to (through conceal spell) make "where did that fireball come from" something people have to roll to discern.
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[snip]
The listed radius of the emanation is the listed radius of the effect. No, it's not going to be solid water. Yes, a large radius bubble of floating stuff that moves in sync with a PC is very much going to impede stealth ability.
Note that the one element that boosts stealth generates and manipulates invisible matter. This an example of the exception proving the rule.Like it or not, any mechanical effect of the aura is present in every square it covers.
This honestly is like, so much a no-duh it is wild that it's being argued against.
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Yes, descriptions of effects and abilities can lead to mechanical interactions not being directly spelled out at times.
The text of Clear as Air explicitly stating that the invisibility also hides the aura is extremely compelling textual support that (not mono-air) auras are normally visible and disruptive to stealth.
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Entering stance and channeling the elements is a single Action.
I have no idea where specifically this willful delusion is rooted, but gameplay-wise, Kineticists can afford to drop their swirling auras if they need to stealth.
It is just wild that this is apparently in contention.
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I have no idea where specifically this willful delusion is rooted
Man this is an incredibly goofy way to take things after literally just complaining about 'bad faith' discussions.
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I was reading Wellspring Mage again today when I notice an interesting thing there:
Strike up the Band (auditory, illusion) For 1 minute, you are followed by orchestral theme music tied to the emotional content of the actions you're performing. This grants you a +2 status bonus to Diplomacy, Intimidation, and Performance checks, a –2 status penalty to Deception checks, and makes certain uses of Stealth virtually impossible. It might have other effects as the GM sees fit.
I know that we can't use unrelated abilities description as a good justification but IMO this enforces the point about the aura interfering in stealth or not. For this Surge the designers keep explicitly clear that it will effect your Stealth. If kineticist was such kind of note in its aura it would be certain that the effects would effect the gameplay rolls, actions and activities. But due a lack of a clear description preventing Stealth usage or not even a penalty and also pointing that "The kinetic aura can't damage anything or affect the environment around you unless another ability allows it to" I still have a serious difficult to accept such read/interpretation about the aura alone preventing a kineticist to use its steath specially when you got a bonus improving your stealth instead.
I keep my main impression that they have enought control over its aura to hide or disguise using its skills.
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I want to push back a little against the idea that having a visible, obvious aura is completely incompatible with using stealth. Such an aura would make it impossible to be Unnoticed, but I see no reason whatsoever why that aura should make it impossible to be Hidden. Sure, you know where the aura is and you know what square the Kineticist is in, but that doesn't mean you automatically have a good visual fix on their position. Similarly, I think it's very reasonable to be Undetected with an active aura. Anyone who can see enough of the aura and reason well enough to work out which is the central square can figure out where the Kineticist is, and failing that everyone is going to have a big swirling clue as to where to focus their Seek attempts. However, knowing that the Kineticist is around somewhere from its very visible aura is not the same as automatically seeing the Kineticist itself.
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Guys, guys; I believe that there's a forum specifically for questions about the rules, yeah? That would be a better place to have the discussion about "can you be sneaky with a kinetic aura active, according to rules as written".
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I don't know why you keep arguing that the words "visible" have to written for you...Let's be clear here, YOU claimed the rules stated that the aura was visible. YOU claimed the rules stated it made the kineticist spottable. And the rules say no such thing. Are we agreed on that?
I disagree, because I think you are conflating different rules cases. The rules cannot cover and we shouldn't expect them to cover every potential use of an ability. But if a feat, class power, spell etc. always causes some effect, then absolutely we should expect the description to mention that. A fireball may light the area on fire, so that isn't mentioned. If a fireball always, in every circumstance no matter what lit the area on fire, then the description of the spell would mention that, because that's something the GM would have to enforce, all the time, no matter what the player wanted....It seems that the designers neither wrote down the elements clearly invisible or wrote down the aura had to visible because they very much left it up to the player and GM to work out how that works.
It is impossible to cover every possible rule scenario. Which is why certain rules like Kinetic Auras, stealth, and a variety of other rules that can't be covered are left more open for a DM an player to work out in play.
I appreciate this particular exchange because you use Fireball as an example immediately after saying something isn't visible without being called out as such. Fireball is a great example of something that is visible without being called out as such. Sure, the spell isn't subtle so you know that wizard cast a spell, there was a "roaring" sound, and you feel really warm now, but the rules don't say you would have seen anything. You know what else isn't called out as explicitly visible? A longsword. No part of their description indicates that they can be seen, felt, or heard. You know about how long they are, that they have one or two edges, and that they are swords.
At the end of the day, things are noticeable or not in-fiction based on what the group decides. Some things don't need any discussion, like a fireball (hopefully), and others apparently do, like an open kinetic gate.
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You know what else is definitely and irrefutably visible (well, most of the time)? A character that tries to be stealthy. And stealth still works for them! It's a miracle! Well, no, it works because the rules say that stealth works even for visible characters.
And the Invisible condition doesn’t even give a bonus to Stealth, while the Skill Junction for Air does. So, assuming access to cover or concealment. A visible Air Kineticist with their aura up might be better at stealth than that same Kineticist Invisible, but with their aura down.
The difference here is one of degree, not kind.