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Conceptually it's far better. Mechanically it's a little weaker.
Upgrades include new and better feats and focus spells (and the ability to regain focus points more quickly) while downgrades include the loss of spell versatility in the new schools.
I consider the spells themselves to largely be a side grade. Cantrips are marginally weaker, but true spells were buffed more often than not with things like much needed clarifications and having multiple spells consolidated into one.
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Conceptually it's far better. Mechanically it's a little weaker.
Upgrades include new and better feats and focus spells (and the ability to regain focus points more quickly) while downgrades include the loss of spell versatility in the new schools.
I consider the spells themselves to largely be a side grade. Cantrips are marginally weaker, but true spells were buffed more often than not with things like much needed clarifications and having multiple spells consolidated into one.
This is an excellent summary, well put.
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It's better than it was. A few feats were touched up and a couple new ones were added. It benefits from the spellcasting proficiency changes by way of getting slots of any tradition from the witch multiclass at full spell DC
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The floor of the Class got raised a bit and the ceiling came down a bit as well, the whole was given a touch up and rearranged with a few rooms replaced but overall the median for the Wizard remains just about the same, at least when you consider the multitude of other Remaster project changes.
(Message in Thread "o")
I currently see 2 Versions of this thread:
- A version with "o" in URL before the question mark:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43wso?Remaster-Wizard
- A version with "p" in URL before the question mark:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43wsp?Remaster-Wizard
If this is a real, global phenomenon, not just an individual issue for my browser, I recommend consolidation.
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There is a 'flag' option for "Double Post". That is the best that we can do.
It happens because the forum software is buggy, and probably overloaded for its traffic level. People end up posting a new thread and it ends up registering the post multiple times.
thx. Added the double post flag to the one with fewer responses.
Update:
Though I have to say, I now feel somewhat bad already. Given that there were 6 responses already.
hsnsy56, I'm sorry, I didn't want to shut up the discussion, on the contrary. I wanted to ease discussion by preventing parallel threads (with people answering past each other).
I hope that thread at hand and the one with more responses - https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43wsp?Remaster-Wizard - can be merged into one. If that's not possible I'm for just leaving it open, now.
And I apologize for my interference, which actually bumped the doubled one, again. I wanted to unflag, but seems impossible. :-(
They usually merge duplicate threads that have lots of responses. I wouldn't worry.
The floor of the Class got raised a bit and the ceiling came down a bit as well, the whole was given a touch up and rearranged with a few rooms replaced but overall the median for the Wizard remains just about the same, at least when you consider the multitude of other Remaster project changes.
The ceiling hasn’t really dropped on the wizard, because the “nerfs” of the remaster are all pretty easy to bypass, usually by taking the strongest options to begin with. Wizards are in one of the best places to stop using cantrips as quickly as possible and the psychic dedication at level 2 is an incredibly powerful move for them to have great focus options on top of having the most spells. The school spell versatility nerf is also trivially easy to immunize with spell blending.
Maybe we can say the ceiling of the class narrowed a bit? And there are less top tier Wizard builds? I don’t really know if that is even true, but it is maybe true that being a good Wizard takes long term planning and a deep understanding of your options, and previous options that were common are probably not as good as they used to be.
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The wizard can no longer replace all of their slots on a daily basis with nearly as much flexibility as they used to with the school slots. That's technically a limitation on the ceiling (although one you can often bypass with thematically appropriate spells) but not one that I think will matter for the vast majority of wizard players who like to rely on staple spells anyway.
A spell blending wizard is then stuck with 2 school spells, one of which is very likely going into a staff? The school limitation really can be bypassed with ease if it bothers you.
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A spell blending wizard is then stuck with 2 school spells, one of which is very likely going into a staff? The school limitation really can be bypassed with ease if it bothers you.
In that case, the question becomes why take a school if the best way to use those slots is to blend them away and feed them to a staff? The focus spells aren't good enough to be a draw.
well, i really like Ars Grammatica and the spells on that list, so I am fine with the spell substitution thesis for the urban campaign i am headed into. I am just saying people who feel like the school spell restrictions are a nerf have a very easy way around them, and then can just be picking their school off of the focus spells, which you will be casting enough to be defining for a caster.
A spell blending wizard is then stuck with 2 school spells, one of which is very likely going into a staff? The school limitation really can be bypassed with ease if it bothers you.In that case, the question becomes why take a school if the best way to use those slots is to blend them away and feed them to a staff? The focus spells aren't good enough to be a draw.Well. I'm not a huge fan of the new schools, but even I can see that the focus spells improved. Especially for necromancy (boundaries) which is no longer stuck with Call of the Grave.
I can attest that the staple spells thing is totally true. Especially since you have plenty of slots anyway to prepare non curriculum spells.
Be that as it may, if you want good focus spells you're still looking at other classes before Wizard, and even as a Wizard it isn't a bad idea to take an archetype to get improved focus spells. This is a technical buff but in practice a very small change.
Yeah, but before the remastery, Psychic was ok as a MC, but you still were only really getting to use 1 Focus spell an encounter for a long time, so it was an either or thing. getting 2 force bolts by level 2 is a pretty big deal if you want to be a damage dealer. At level 1 Force Barrage looks like it will be the most reliable ranged damage dealing option out of any martial or caster, but by level 3 throwing down a Thunderstrike and a Force bolt or Force Barrage is going to be top tier single target damage. The starlit magus with Imaginary weapon eventually will out pace them, but they will stay really good against any higher level enemies.
Which is kind of ironic because it was a niche that casters really didn't do well in pre-remastery.
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Yeah, but before the remastery, Psychic was ok as a MC, but you still were only really getting to use 1 Focus spell an encounter for a long time, so it was an either or thing. getting 2 force bolts by level 2 is a pretty big deal if you want to be a damage dealer. At level 1 Force Barrage looks like it will be the most reliable ranged damage dealing option out of any martial or caster, but by level 3 throwing down a Thunderstrike and a Force bolt or Force Barrage is going to be top tier single target damage. The starlit magus with Imaginary weapon eventually will out pace them, but they will stay really good against any higher level enemies.
Which is kind of ironic because it was a niche that casters really didn't do well in pre-remastery.
That tide lifted the boats of every class that uses focus points. I don't see how any of this makes a Wizard more attractive than a Remastered Witch or Psychic or Sorcerer.
That tide lifted the boats of every class that uses focus points. I don't see how any of this makes a Wizard more attractive than a Remastered Witch or Psychic or Sorcerer.Yeah, but before the remastery, Psychic was ok as a MC, but you still were only really getting to use 1 Focus spell an encounter for a long time, so it was an either or thing. getting 2 force bolts by level 2 is a pretty big deal if you want to be a damage dealer. At level 1 Force Barrage looks like it will be the most reliable ranged damage dealing option out of any martial or caster, but by level 3 throwing down a Thunderstrike and a Force bolt or Force Barrage is going to be top tier single target damage. The starlit magus with Imaginary weapon eventually will out pace them, but they will stay really good against any higher level enemies.
Which is kind of ironic because it was a niche that casters really didn't do well in pre-remastery.
The psychic already had focus spells a plenty and ways of getting 2 back with ease (and only within their own class) and a minimum amount of spell slots. Spell slot spells are generally better than pre-remaster, so classes with more slots and less focus spells are doing better than classes with good access to focus spells and limited number of slots. Especially with cantrips now taking a step down and requiring more different ones to target different weaknesses to really be worthwhile. Only the primal and arcane list get enough different cantrips to be able to play that game except against undead and fiends.
We really don't know what sorcerers will look like yet. They should be close to the same, but the bloodlines might get a pretty decent shake up. If you really value spontaneous casting, there is a good chance sorcerers will always look better than wizards. I think that is probably the way it should be though. The witch catching up to the wizard is probably a good thing overall for the game, but the difference is pretty minimal and you will never have as many top slots as a witch as you would if you were a wizard. I think the caster balance is pretty good in the remastery.
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The psychic already had focus spells a plenty and ways of getting 2 back with ease (and only within their own class) and a minimum amount of spell slots. Spell slot spells are generally better than pre-remaster, so classes with more slots and less focus spells are doing better than classes with good access to focus spells and limited number of slots. Especially with cantrips now taking a step down and requiring more different ones to target different weaknesses to really be worthwhile. Only the primal and arcane list get enough different cantrips to be able to play that game except against undead and fiends.
We really don't know what sorcerers will look like yet. They should be close to the same, but the bloodlines might get a pretty decent shake up. If you really value spontaneous casting, there is a good chance sorcerers will always look better than wizards. I think that is probably the way it should be though. The witch catching up to the wizard is probably a good thing overall for the game, but the difference is pretty minimal and you will never have as many top slots as a witch as you would if you were a wizard. I think the caster balance is pretty good in the remastery
I don't think enough spells were tweaked to really impact the value of a spell slot. Plus any class not impacted by the remaster still gets to use their focus spells and the cantrips in their books as they were written so Psychic should be just as good as it's ever been. Better now that it can pick up Wizard spells via an archetype and use them at full power.
I know you're relentlessly positive about PF2 but I don't agree that Wizard didn't fall another half step behind post remaster.
The psychic already had focus spells a plenty and ways of getting 2 back with ease (and only within their own class) and a minimum amount of spell slots. Spell slot spells are generally better than pre-remaster, so classes with more slots and less focus spells are doing better than classes with good access to focus spells and limited number of slots. Especially with cantrips now taking a step down and requiring more different ones to target different weaknesses to really be worthwhile. Only the primal and arcane list get enough different cantrips to be able to play that game except against undead and fiends.
We really don't know what sorcerers will look like yet. They should be close to the same, but the bloodlines might get a pretty decent shake up. If you really value spontaneous casting, there is a good chance sorcerers will always look better than wizards. I think that is probably the way it should be though. The witch catching up to the wizard is probably a good thing overall for the game, but the difference is pretty minimal and you will never have as many top slots as a witch as you would if you were a wizard. I think the caster balance is pretty good in the remastery
I don't think enough spells were tweaked to really impact the value of a spell slot. Plus any class not impacted by the remaster still gets to use their focus spells and the cantrips in their books as they were written so Psychic should be just as good as it's ever been. Better now that it can pick up Wizard spells via an archetype and use them at full power.
I know you're relentlessly positive about PF2 but I don't agree that Wizard didn't fall another half step behind post remaster.
The cantrips in secrets of magic and dark archive got errata. The amped cantrips are still all excellent, but when the psychic runs out of focus points they are pretty pedestrian.
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The psychic didn't get objectively weaker, but the refocus changes take their single strongest low level feature and essentially gives it to everyone, which is a pretty significant blow to their relative value.
Wizards also feel a little bit bad in that respect since even though it's a buff they probably benefit the least from it overall (along with a few choice cleric and sorcerer options).
.. The best thing about post-remaster Wizard is that the Witch exists. Not a joke. Witch archetype gives you full proficiency access to any tradition (even with archetype slot progression that's nice) and makes it fairly easy to poach a decent-ish focus spell to shore up one of the biggest failings in your core kit.
Psychic Dedication is also tempting for the same reason if you want Occult.
Psychic definitely feels like the remaster hurt it more than the wizard. They lost a lot of their refocus edge and their amped cantrips became even more poachable. They've still got Unleash Psyche and its related feats going for them though.
Wizards need exactly one thing to essentially erase their loss in school slot flexibility: a staple spell for each level you can convince your GM is thematically appropriate enough to add to your curriculum. That feels like it should be an easy sell to me, but obviously mileage will vary.
Psychic multiclass is just super good on a wizard or now now in a way it isn't for cleric and druid. I also don't think it is fair to dismiss spell changes, but it is difficult to quantity. How much worse is the cleric now that it is stuck with Fly like other casters instead of the superior air walk? How do you compare the values of the new buffed versions of flame strike and phantasmal killer? Have we looked at how many arcane spells gained the subtle trait compared to divine spells?
I think it is to say cleric got the biggest chassis buffs and storm Druids are the biggest winners on the refocus rules. But I haven't been impressed by new druid feats, where both cleric, wizard, and bard got compelling options. The new Conceal Spell is a huge buff in narrative power for wizards and bards that changes a lot of the stories we can tell.
The elementalist looked kinda juicy when I read it in Rage of the Elements. I didn't do a line by line comparison to SoM to confirm what changed, but either it got buffed or I've been sleeping on it. Lots of solid focus spells and third actions there.
It also got some very choice feats, maybe not the best in the entire remaster, but some of them should prove pretty potent.
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The floor of the Class got raised a bit and the ceiling came down a bit as well, the whole was given a touch up and rearranged with a few rooms replaced but overall the median for the Wizard remains just about the same, at least when you consider the multitude of other Remaster project changes.The ceiling hasn’t really dropped on the wizard, because the “nerfs” of the remaster are all pretty easy to bypass, usually by taking the strongest options to begin with. Wizards are in one of the best places to stop using cantrips as quickly as possible and the psychic dedication at level 2 is an incredibly powerful move for them to have great focus options on top of having the most spells. The school spell versatility nerf is also trivially easy to immunize with spell blending.
Maybe we can say the ceiling of the class narrowed a bit? And there are less top tier Wizard builds? I don’t really know if that is even true, but it is maybe true that being a good Wizard takes long term planning and a deep understanding of your options, and previous options that were common are probably not as good as they used to be.
Intel based psychic archetype is really nice for the wizard now.
Yes its a good way to wizards get access to a good list of improved cantrips and focus spells (amps) based into your intelligence. It may be useful if you want to do blaster with "6" top level spells and use AMPed Ignite/Frostbite to save some spell slots making your wizard blaster useful for all day long.
But I still prefer to make a Kineticist instead if I want to do a blaster. :P
Be kind of cool if they make a sort of mental kineticist. I imagine given how much work was put into the kineticist, that type of page count and investment in a class might be few and far between. They really put a lot of effort and work into the kineticist, especially all those feat options. That would be hard to do very often.
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Maybe we can say the ceiling of the class narrowed a bit? And there are less top tier Wizard builds?
I'd say more the opposite. The floor is a bit lower. Most of the problems with the remaster are things you can optimize away to varying degrees, which inherently means that people who are not doing that are going to suffer more.
The familiar master who takes archaeologist is going to feel more pain from the school changes and see less benefit from general system improvements than the spell blender multiclassing psychic.
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Well. I'm not a huge fan of the new schools, but even I can see that the focus spells improved. Especially for necromancy (boundaries) which is no longer stuck with Call of the Grave.
The improvements to wizard focus spells are somewhere between extremely minor and non-existent. Call of the Grave is still in the game, it just got shifted to Protean Form and changed into a fort save with no effect on success, which isn't any better than a spell attack on average. Boundary now has one of the worst focus spells in the game instead and it wasn't improved in any way.
Charming Push is a bit more usable than its old version. Earthworks no longer being an illusion has both up- and downsides, so it's no improvement either. The rest is basically unchanged - other than being shifted around a bit - as far as I can tell.
The new ones Community Restoration and Interdisciplinary Incantation aren't completely terrible, but nothing to write home about either. I can't see myself wasting spending an 8th level feat on either of them.
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The elementalist looked kinda juicy when I read it in Rage of the Elements. I didn't do a line by line comparison to SoM to confirm what changed, but either it got buffed or I've been sleeping on it. Lots of solid focus spells and third actions there.
It has the same problem as the original compared to the primal list it loses access to Heal, Fear, Slow, Haste, Chain Lightning. It is worse if you are talking about the wizard elementalist.
So you get a nice theme but it remains a huge power downgrade.Personally I am quite annoyed with it as it would be a simple job to reflavour or create something similar but different.
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Well. I'm not a huge fan of the new schools, but even I can see that the focus spells improved. Especially for necromancy (boundaries) which is no longer stuck with Call of the Grave.The improvements to wizard focus spells are somewhere between extremely minor and non-existent. Call of the Grave is still in the game, it just got shifted to Protean Form and changed into a fort save with no effect on success, which isn't any better than a spell attack on average. Boundary now has one of the worst focus spells in the game instead and it wasn't improved in any way.
Charming Push is a bit more usable than its old version. Earthworks no longer being an illusion has both up- and downsides, so it's no improvement either. The rest is basically unchanged - other than being shifted around a bit - as far as I can tell.
The new ones Community Restoration and Interdisciplinary Incantation aren't completely terrible, but nothing to write home about either. I can't see myself
wastingspending an 8th level feat on either of them.
Call of the Grave -> Scramble Body was one of the worse changes from Attack to Save spell in PF2 because you no more can take advantage from target that got lower AC due flat-footed off-guard nor use Shadow Signet to change from AC to Reflex or Fortitude. Now its a save or suck fortitude check only and fortitude usually is one of the most difficult saves vs non-caster monsters/NPCs.
Boundary now has one of the worst focus spells in the game instead and it wasn't improved in any way.
Boundary comes with a very good advanced focus spell. In fact that seems to be my general impression of wizard focus spells - the advanced ones are better.
I have said some bad things about Augment Summoning in the past(now fortify summoning), but it does have a use case. Which is if you are grappling with your summons.
I'd say more the opposite. The floor is a bit lower. Most of the problems with the remaster are things you can optimize away to varying degrees, which inherently means that people who are not doing that are going to suffer more.
The familiar master who takes archaeologist is going to feel more pain from the school changes and see less benefit from general system improvements than the spell blender multiclassing psychic.
I don't think the gap has changed much. The strong options have just broadened. The top of the range is about the same spot it always was and the bottom is just a simple class build with all marginal feats.
Once you have the basics covered, the power builds are the builds that have a good:
1) class feature or feat which they are utilizing well and got some synergy going.
2) 3rd action that is not worried about MAP - typically a nice skill option.
3) reaction.
4) focus spell they can use in most fights.
In the remasters Paizo have:
1) fixed up some of the weaker classes, especially the witch and the warpriest. But everyone got something.
2) ensured that Intelligence builds at least have a reasonable skill option in a patch to recall knowledge.
3) introduce a lot more reactions. It used to be hard for casters to get a good reaction now it is not. There are a lot more good reaction spells and feats in SoM, RoE and Core2
4) made focus points a bit simpler. Which is a plus for all classes. Admittedly a lot of level 1 wizard and cleric options for focus spells are terrible, but it is not that hard to fix up with a few feats even if you have to archetype to do it.
You can build a strong character in all the remastered classes. Now it is up to you to roleplay it well and be effective as a team.
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This is easily fixable with additional Wizard focus spells but is there precedent for that?
In the past, have new Focus spells been printed/added like regular spells?
Not really. We got one new one for the Runelord Archetype and a few accessible via other archetypes, but those weren't exactly class specific.
Paizo said new schools are meant to be released in future books. We'll have to wait and see if that means new focus spells for each of them or if they just re-use existing ones from other classes like the Runelord got cleric domain spells as focus spells.
But even then, new (and hopefully better) schools don't fix the fact that the base template of the curriculums is bad and that it would still leave the Core schools lacking.
I really think the school system needs another rework. At the very least the curriculums need to be revised and expanded, so we have more spells to choose from, which also increases the chances of at least some of them being actually usable on a daily basis.
I'm working on house rules for this, but how could they have missed adding a feat chain for Recall Knowledge analogous to Intimidate where you can get buffs/debuffs based on Int rolls for your 3rd action? Either as general skill feats or maybe even as Wizard feats to throw them something unique and interesting as Int masters.
2) ensured that Intelligence builds at least have a reasonable skill option in a patch to recall knowledge.
Recall Knowledge already has significant value and useful skill feats. It doesn't need to debuff as well.
If you want more I'd prefer they build something like the Investigator feat Known Weaknesses but redone for Wizards and more relevant to spells.
4) made focus points a bit simpler. Which is a plus for all classes. Admittedly a lot of level 1 wizard and cleric options for focus spells are terrible, but it is not that hard to fix up with a few feats even if you have to archetype to do it.
The improvements to wizard focus spells are somewhere between extremely minor and non-existent
The thing is that wizard is one of the few classes without 2-action focus spells. Sorcerer, druid, cleric, psychic...most of them don't NEED to steal from other classes, because they already have these focus spells
This is easily fixable with additional Wizard focus spells but is there precedent for that?
In the past, have new Focus spells been printed/added like regular spells?
I don't mind that extra focus soells is archetype based. Wizards are all about their spell slots after all. It is kind of thematic that they have limited options.
Oh I know. But at least Boundaries/Necromancy got some halfway decent focus spells out of it.
Focus SpellS? As in plural?
I still utterly fail to see any redeeming quality in Augment/Fortify Summon. The effect isn't terrible, but it's just sooooooo clunky to use.
The poor man's Dirge is nice, admittedly. And funnily enough, it does basically the same for your summons as Fortify Summon. I guess you could stack both if your Summon happens to live long enough? Though chances are the fight is over either way by the time you get all this going.
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The fact the spells can all heighten for free means that you end up with a lot of potential spells in your higher rank school slots. In the 6 remastered wizards I’ve built so far, it really is not that big of a deal and getting the extra spell known each rank is nice.
I do get that it feels jarring to some players but for those players both the spell blending thesis and just talking to your GM are very good options. The focus spell is the much bigger deal about schools than anything else.