Remaster Wizard?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


If you considered it weak before you will still consider it weak now.


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Raw power: I don't think it moved the needle much. So if you thought the Wizard was a weak class before, you will probably still think the Remastered version is as well.

There are a handful of quality of life improvements. They get full simple weapon proficiency. The equivalent of Universalist Wizard gets Hand of the Apprentice for free instead of having to pay a feat for it. Some of the feats have been tweaked to be a bit better. Things like that.

Wizard is still under the design constraints that they have limited spell slots - even if it is more slots than most casters get. And that since they get more spell slots than other classes, they don't get much else.

If you want a resource-free blaster caster, you probably want Kineticist. If you want a spellcaster that can do something when their spell slots run out, you likely want a focus spell caster like Psychic or Oracle, or a more hybrid class like Druid.


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School changes are a mixed bag, they should never have had incap spells in them imo.

Free focus spell is nice.

Uncommon spells in then school lists is great, a pc wants guaranteed access to teleporting... well there is a school for that.

But if you didn't get wizards before they will mostly be the same now.

As a GM a change I am considering the following changes:
- The extra spell slots are spontaneous for the spells from the school and all are treated as signature spells.
- A level 2 class feat that allows a prepared spell to be swapped for a school spell with 10 minutes of prep (modelled after the druid summon spell feat)

Decent boosts, but solves the incap issue and makes it competitive with the universalist imo.


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The new schools are a downgrade in power/flexibility, even though they are better for flavor. It's not class-breaking or anything, but I have serious trouble picking one because none of them feels great. Universalist is the only one that got better.

Thesis is completely unchanged.

Got about 5 "new" feats, three of them stolen from other classes (with minor adjustments). Most of them are fine, but none are amazing. They overall don't change much.

Good minor buffs to some of the older feats, but again, nothing outstanding with the possible exception of Conceal Spell which is already causing pages-long discussions. Its ultimate quality will depend a lot on your GM unless paizo clarifies it further at some point.

Proficiency in all Simple Weapons is a decent upgrade but doesn't help much with spellcasting.

The class is overall about as strong/weak as it was, I would say.

There are some more general changes that can potentially affect a wizard, though. Armor and Weapon proficiency general feats now scale to expert at levels 13 and 11 respectively, so you can leave your Dex at 16 or 18 and still easily max out your AC. Or get bow for a decent 3rd action. Ancestry weapon feats have also been buffed and you get the whole line (full proficiency + weapon spec) for a single feat.

Spellcasting proficiency is universal instead of being tied to a tradition. So you can use your wizard proficiency for any spelcasting archetypes you might pick up. Wizard + Witch + Int Psychic can cast three traditions at full spell DC/attack.

The remastered version of Magical Shorthand turns success on Learn a Spell to Crit Success, so you can basically learn all spells at half price.


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Most of all, I'm disappointed in spells like Ignition, which is meant to replace Produce Flame. Produce Flame did an average of 6.5 damage, Ignition now does 5 damage at range, and 7 damage in melee (which is not ideal for a wizard, especially considering how low their AC and HP are).

The last thing spellcasters needed was a nerf. They should have been given a huge buff. If they were going to do that with Ignition, why not make it one action, since spellcasters also get the multi-attack penalty? That would at least be a reasonable trade-off.

In previous editions, casters were glass cannons. They had low hit points and armor class, but to compensate, they had huge offense and utility. Now Wizards have low HP, do less damage than martials, and have low utility because skills seem to have taken over.

It seems like every class that was weak in PF1 was made powerful, and every overpowered class in PF1 was made weak in PF2. The alchemist is the perfect example.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Quote:
and have low utility

No one is going to top this joke. Thread is over.


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Hmm, sounds disappointing. I was hoping Wizard got something unique. Like a feat chain off Recall Knowledge that temporarily boosted DC, raised the level needed for a monster to be effected by incapacitation once a day, etc.

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hsnsy56 wrote:

Like a feat chain off Recall Knowledge

In my personal opinion, the Wizard has been in dire need of meaningful interactions with the recall knowledge system from day 1.

There is a quite solid 8th level feat now, a reworked Knowledge is power. But it still requires a critical success to do anything.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wizard is still a mixed bag, more limited than it was before thanks to the lazy approach to the new schools. Wizards oower is in 4 spell slots per rank that they can freely change 3 of per day and 1 spell slot with a super limited number of school options. Feats are boring and mostly meaningless with little flavour compared to other casters.

For the 'knowledge/academic' class they have less interaction than most other classes do with recall knowledge other than a level 8 feat and the theory that recall knowledge benefits wizards more than other classes to learn a weakness... that they probably won't be able to take advantage of until they have slept overnight and done their daily preparations if they even know a good spell to take advantage of it. It does very little in the heat of battle.

The best way to think of wizard is the prepared spell slot arcane class as there is very little else going for it. Wizards are as powerful as spells are in PF2e and behind other casters for interesting feats that define those classes. Right now Cloister Clerics have more spell slots than they do at most ranks and always more max ranks spell slots (even if limited to heal/harm and with a feat remove conditions spells), a much better list of feat options, more flavour through deities, domains and more focus spell options. Clerics can also grab a couple of spells from other tradition lists with some deities.

There is a lot of room for improvement and the remaster was a missed opportunity to rethink how bland they are. New schools are just a very limited number of spells with rehashed focus spells from the pre remaster wizard. Its like they looked at the existing focus spells and thought about schools they could build around them. There is almost nothing exciting or winning about the new schools where they had a real chance to make them feel unique and interesting. Thesis are exactly what they were, none of them feel at all academic or tie into knowledge at all, to be honest I am not even sure what purpose they serve anymore as they feel like a grab bag of options, 3 of which amount to a couple of free otherwise easily obtainable feats (spellshape and familiar). Spell sub and staff should have just been low level wizard feats. Spell blending is the only one that kind of has a non feat level interaction with the class but even then could have just been 3 feats to blend 1 to 3 level spell slots at level 6, 4-6 at level 12, and 7 to 9 at 18 or maybe even just 1 feat that got better as you levelled.


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I currently see 2 versions of this thread:

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It looks a little better than before. Probably depend on how kind the DM is with adding school spells as to the value of schools. Unified Theory still looks like the strongest build.

Wizards can have better weapon options now. This does the most for Unified Theory Hand of the Apprentice.

Standardized spellcasting proficiency improves adding more casting with archetypes or ancestry feats.

Some of the added feats don't look bad. Might have some uses for battlefield control forcing movement or taking pain.

I still will add Spell Substitution thesis as a class feature in my house rules, but probably drop my other wizard house rules for focus spells.

Wizard received a very minor upgrade. It's still the caster with the least number of roles it can fulfill. It's pretty much a support/damage caster relying on the arcane list with the the best spellcasting utility in the game if given sufficient preparation time or using Spell Substitution. It has great level 20 feats if you make that far.

Still a very playable class. Not the most fun feat options.

Depending on what you need in a group, not the most versatile role caster. But can likely fill the damage/utility caster niche if you already have healer covered and a sufficient number of martials.

In summation, wizard stayed about the same with some quality of life upgrades to open up some additional build options and maybe a few more feats that can be used well by a clever player and group.


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If the GM is willing to swap a few spells from the Wizard's curriculum it should be around the same if not better. Some new (or changed) feats are better than what they had before.

If you run it as it is, they are worse than pre-remaster Wizard period. Not by much, but still worse.


The Gleeful Grognard wrote:


Uncommon spells in then school lists is great, a pc wants guaranteed access to teleporting... well there is a school for that.

This is very true in PFS (or so I'm told), though it may be worth noting it's not worth that much in a home campaign, where the GM might restrict Uncommon spells because they don't fit the vision of the setting. In that case, it probably just means teleport gets swapped out for a different Common spell.

But then again I see rarity more as a highlighter for GMs, so that they know what spells and abilities they should think about when designing their settings and so that they know what to ban if they feel like said spells don't fit.


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wizard focus spell are hardly improved

school give very limited spell

their focus feat still 2 level late but at least it recover 3 point like everyone else

at least elementalist school are still a choice but cost at least a level 2 feat

wizard are the only class seem to be weaker in reprint

removal of the old spell school system hit them hard


Th school nerf is over stated, frankly. It's not ideal, but saying stuff like "wizards are absolutely worse now" or that the school thing "hit them hard" is hyperbolic and overstating what is at most a minor annoyance. The battle magic school having dead first level slots, for example, is an issue but it's also *the* school for spell blending, nothing is better for them even if they had all the old evocation spells making a wizard around blasting means getting the thesis that gives more top level slots. Wizards largely stayed the same but for some cool new feats, but I wish the levels on some of them were different. A few compete with things like bond conservation and superior bond and frankly are not as good as either


hsns56, at first and again, I apologize for overeagerly playing somewhat deputy admin with my activity in the parallel (double) thread. It was a mistake.

Concerning the actual topic: I think the wizard profits from some of the general system changes, like the focus pool/refocus improvement or the universal casting proficiency.

Although I've to interject, it's a bit ironic that the wizard main class of all lacks more early accessible focus spell options. How to get 3 like other classes, too? (Even barely magical classes like Ranger can get focus spells easier, which feels wrong to me.)
I definitely hope Wizard will gain ground regarding focus options with Player Core 2 at the latest. Earlier additions highly welcome...

(Personal favourite for one possible fix, others already mentioned: Introduce an equivalent to Bard's Multifarious Muse or Druid's Order Explorer. Something that let's the Wizard dabble into other curricula. How about naming it "Guest Student", "Visiting Student", "Second-degree Studies", or the like.)

I know, multiclassing or archetypes could be a present option - and if one likes the concepts, there are thematically cool options.
- For instance going even more deeply into intelligence based casting. Like the wizard/witch, which (;-)) dabbled a bit more into the unknown than expected for their kind...
- Or the rather studious witch/wizard, with their special knack for the arcane.
- Or if you like the picture of wizards wielding swords and staves: Martial archetypes and weapons are easier accessible than ever.

Which brings us to the next point: Ordinary (simple) weapon proficiency. For many, it might not be a big deal. But I think it was a good decision both for streamlining the rules and making hybrid wizard/martial concepts easier. All a plus.

Some wizard feats have improved. (Notably Conceal Spell, which went from (IMHO) thematically great but mechanically super-fragile to attractively robust for social campaigns with that special need to stay discreet. Compare discussion in sibling thread.)

Then I believe we got some indirect plus by some remastered spells. This is less obvious and seems to fly under the radar ("scrydar" ;-)). For an exact, thorough evaluation I might go into more details - which, for now, would exceed the scope of my message. Yet I believe by
- consolidating (joining) certain spells (e.g. Figment, the Illusory Disguise+Veil line),
- making them more practical (Subtle Spells)
- able to scale (Runic Weapon), and/or
- commonly accessible at all (Disguise Magic over Magic Aura)
casters in general - and wizards as deeply magic centred class in particular - got somewhat buffed.

Which I think was a good thing, given how effective martials had become in PF2e.

Note: I tend to find these spell buffs mainly in utility, less direct-damage-oriented spells. Which corroborates wizards' and casters' value in utility - outside but also inside encounter. Maybe a Figment will soon have more effect than another Electric Arc or Telekinetic Projectile? (I know, this is comparing apples and oranges. I like all sorts of fruits)

That being said, and talking about spells, I would like a bit more from the curriculum slots, as well. I understand their introduction as replacement for the 8 schools of magic. They are thematically fine. The curricula just need a few more options - especially for the low slots - that stay valid for high level (like fear).

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AestheticDialectic wrote:
Th school nerf is over stated

I actually feel the opposite. I feel is generally being understated by the community at large.

The restricted spell lists as part of the school does two important things on a character level:
1) Causes a large drop in the usefulness and versatility of the Wizard's most integral class feature.
2) Narrows the range of character options, and ties the Wizard more closely to their school than before. This is fine for some characters, but for others, it doesn't really work at all. Plus, the core didn't provide enough options to cover all general bases. I understand that peoples mileage will vary on this point, but from an RP perspective, suddenly being forced to only use certain spells in a quarter of your slots is jarring.

The Dead Slot problem is entirely a result of the school changes. Its a wholly new problem that simply didn't exist before. I was on the preview stream for the Wizard changes months ago, the chat called out the issue within seconds of seeing the spell lists. There were so many ways to avoid this issue but it happened anyhow.


Deriven Firelion wrote:

It looks a little better than before. Probably depend on how kind the DM is with adding school spells as to the value of schools. Unified Theory still looks like the strongest build.

Wizards can have better weapon options now. This does the most for Unified Theory Hand of the Apprentice.

Standardized spellcasting proficiency improves adding more casting with archetypes or ancestry feats.

Some of the added feats don't look bad. Might have some uses for battlefield control forcing movement or taking pain.

I still will add Spell Substitution thesis as a class feature in my house rules, but probably drop my other wizard house rules for focus spells.

Wizard received a very minor upgrade. It's still the caster with the least number of roles it can fulfill. It's pretty much a support/damage caster relying on the arcane list with the the best spellcasting utility in the game if given sufficient preparation time or using Spell Substitution. It has great level 20 feats if you make that far.

Still a very playable class. Not the most fun feat options.

Depending on what you need in a group, not the most versatile role caster. But can likely fill the damage/utility caster niche if you already have healer covered and a sufficient number of martials.

In summation, wizard stayed about the same with some quality of life upgrades to open up some additional build options and maybe a few more feats that can be used well by a clever player and group.

Hmm. Doesn't sound great. I think I will adopt Spell Substitution as a class feature as well.

And also house rule a feat chain around Recall Knowledge. Or even give it as class features. Something like:

Success on recall knowledge lets you automatically get weakest saving throw and resistances/vulnerabilities and 1 other useful thing

Success on recall knowledge gives a +1 to next spell cast DC or +2 to spell attack (once per per encounter per monster type?)

Success on recall knowledge moves the Incapacitation limit up 2 levels (once a day)

Make Wizard's the best at using knowledge and also perhaps best at using attack roll and incapacitation spells?


calnivo wrote:

(Message in Thread "p")

I currently see 2 versions of this thread:

- A version with "o" in URL before the question mark:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43wso?Remaster-Wizard
- A version with "p" in URL before the question mark:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43wsp?Remaster-Wizard

If this is a real, global phenomenon, not just an individual issue for my browser, I recommend consolidation.

I see it too, not sure what's going on there.

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The school change isn't a huge deal, but it is pretty notable as one of the only real nerfs to a class chassis going in to the remaster.

And it could've been offset by an improvement in the power of the new schools' focus spells.
But the majority of the new schools' are reskinned versions of the old focus spells.
So we end up with, in most all cases, objectively worse versions of the old schools.

It almost doesn't matter how much worse the new schools are than the old. Paizo took a class that definitely wasn't a power outlier and made it worse. People are gonna be annoyed by that.

To me, the idea of the new schools is pretty cool. But the idea needed more time in the oven.


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Ectar wrote:

The school change isn't a huge deal, but it is pretty notable as one of the only real nerfs to a class chassis going in to the remaster.

And it could've been offset by an improvement in the power of the new schools' focus spells.
But the majority of the new schools' are reskinned versions of the old focus spells.
So we end up with, in most all cases, objectively worse versions of the old schools.

It almost doesn't matter how much worse the new schools are than the old. Paizo took a class that definitely wasn't a power outlier and made it worse. People are gonna be annoyed by that.

To me, the idea of the new schools is pretty cool. But the idea needed more time in the oven.

Yeah, that's the issue I have. Sounds like the change isn't a huge deal and close to slightly negative, but IMO Wizard was one the classes that needed some bump in both in power and in differentiation through better class features/feats.

It's not like it's completely unplayable but would have been the time to boost it. I'm really not sure what the design team sees. They must be valuing the utility flexibility more. Or just really really don't want the Wizard to be on top again and are low balling it on purpose.

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I think the greatly restricted spell slot is a big enough deal if I'm honest. For a class that is supposedly all about utility and flexibility, removing a chunk of that does devalue the class.

But the thing which needs fixed, and is an actual problem in day to day play, is the dead slot problem. It honestly baffles me how it happened. If you are going to restrict a spell slot to only a small subset of spells, then there needs to be an option at each level for each school which does not draw its utility from being heightened.


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Like others suggested, I'll just make the wizard 4 free slots at my table so the school spells will just be gravy in their spellbook that they can prepare at whatever ranks are applicable.


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univeralist just feel so much better than any non elemental school now

still need archetype feat to fix focus spell problem

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WWHsmackdown wrote:
Like others suggested, I'll just make the wizard 4 free slots at my table so the school spells will just be gravy in their spellbook that they can prepare at whatever ranks are applicable.

That is probably the most elegant solution.


Old_Man_Robot wrote:
WWHsmackdown wrote:
Like others suggested, I'll just make the wizard 4 free slots at my table so the school spells will just be gravy in their spellbook that they can prepare at whatever ranks are applicable.
That is probably the most elegant solution.

Kind of leaves sorcerer without much to stand out, though.


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Squark wrote:
Old_Man_Robot wrote:
WWHsmackdown wrote:
Like others suggested, I'll just make the wizard 4 free slots at my table so the school spells will just be gravy in their spellbook that they can prepare at whatever ranks are applicable.
That is probably the most elegant solution.
Kind of leaves sorcerer without much to stand out, though.

I mean they already kind of didn't, wizards have always effectively been 4 slot casters, and sorcerers are probably still better as a generic spellcaster due to being more well rounded rather than going all in on spell slots.


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Squark wrote:
Old_Man_Robot wrote:
WWHsmackdown wrote:
Like others suggested, I'll just make the wizard 4 free slots at my table so the school spells will just be gravy in their spellbook that they can prepare at whatever ranks are applicable.
That is probably the most elegant solution.
Kind of leaves sorcerer without much to stand out, though.

And I think that says a lot about both the Wizard and the Sorcerer. Also how weird caster chassis balance is in PF2.


25speedforseaweedleshy wrote:

univeralist just feel so much better than any non elemental school now

still need archetype feat to fix focus spell problem

Elementalist archetype doesn't already do this? It switches your normal school focus spells to druid's elemental orders focus spell.

Rage of Elements pg. 58 - Elemental Magic (1st) - Wizard Elementalist Adjustments wrote:
If you're a wizard, you can either choose to be a universalist or to follow an arcane school dedicated to one element from your elemental philosophy. If you choose an elemental school, your curriculum spells can be any spells that you have access to and that have your chosen element's trait. Your school spells are the elemental focus spells of your chosen element, with the 1st-rank spell as your initial school spell and the 3rd-rank spell as the advanced school spell.


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I think he's saying the universalist feels better than the others, but even it still needs archetypes to get focus spells that are both useful and hit the 3 point cap. Even elementalist needs an archetype to get a third focus point.


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Squark wrote:
Old_Man_Robot wrote:
WWHsmackdown wrote:
Like others suggested, I'll just make the wizard 4 free slots at my table so the school spells will just be gravy in their spellbook that they can prepare at whatever ranks are applicable.
That is probably the most elegant solution.
Kind of leaves sorcerer without much to stand out, though.

The sorcerer stands out for having good feats, lots of build options, a wide variety of quality focus spells, and signature spell casting which provides dynamic combat casting flexibility the wizard often lacks, especially notable at higher levels where the sorcerer starts to shine.

On top of that, charisma is an excellent main stat supported by many quality skills and skill feats.

Wizard having four slots does not in any way reduce the attractiveness of the sorcerer. I've played a lot of sorcerers. They scale better than wizards and have absolutely amazing abilities a wizard cannot touch.

I'm playing a Harrow Sorcerer right now. I dropped a nice +4 status damage Invoke the Harrow on a PC for 1 focus point with no sustain. I used rewrite possibility to provide True Strike equivalent for a minute using my reaction to an ally for a focus point. Both focus spells work extremely well.

The Harrow sorcerer has heal and can choose any mental spell to add to her repertoire after 1 minute of meditation.

Sorcs have no problems compared to the wizard. It's why you don't see anyone making threads about sorcerers because for those that know how to build them, they are a great class.

Sure, some prefer the wizard and argue its merits. Personal preference aside, there is a reason you don't see tons of threads about sorcs: They are a versatile class with great feats and lots of fun and highly effective build options that can fill a variety of roles from blaster to utility caster to battlefield control to healer.

So no need to be concerned about the sorc when improving the wizard. Go to town improving the wizard. Sorcs will be just fine. They are one of Paizo's simple, yet well-designed classes that gives a player tons of build flexibility and great ways to tie story to a character with bloodlines.

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