This a point that no one mentioned yet and that bothered me since the beginning.
The class spellcasting merging prepared and spontaneous spellcasting in the same classe made it over-complex.
Let us remember that spellcasting in general in PF2 is a pretty complex mechanic requiring you to study what spells you will take, what situation you will use, how long the spell will be useful, what it will combine, what situations it will able to help and many other considerations.
Add to this both have to choose what spells you will prepare for that day + have to choose what repertoire to use just make the things more difficult and I'm not accounting that you can loose part of your repertoire when you "sacrifice" your apparition using some feat.
IMO there's no good reason to don't make the class fully spontaneous allowing you to get 1 spell per level to your repertoire + your spells from apparitions and merge all spellslots making everything more simple and flexible.
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I don't think that the spontaneous bit really adds complexity since it's just "these 1-10 spells- you may cast them at any level with these slots."
It's less complex than Wizards getting an extra slot for a spell school.
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I think it might be a concern but it could also be fun for those who want something a bit more complex.
I think in the case of games that use the classic pen and paper index cards might be a good idea.
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The thing about a game like this is that there is room for many different people comfortable with many different levels of complexity.
Not good with complex stuff? Sorcerer.
Okay with moderately complex stuff? Wizard.
Like complexity? Animist.I, for example, really love the idea of mixed spellcasting and I have absolutely zero concerns about the level of complexity because complexity is something I'm comfortable dealing with.
Agreed. You don't have to choose, nor do you get to choose, what spells are in your Repertoire for the spontaneous casting half of it. So there really isn't any additional complexity of choice.
There is more tracking since you have to track both prepared spells that you have cast and how many of your spontaneous spell slots you have used. But that shouldn't take up too much room on a piece of scratch paper.
And if complexity is something that the player is going to have a problem with, then Animist is most definitely not the class that they want to play. The spellcasting is not even close to the most complex part.
There are: The Wandering feats. The skill boosts from Apparition Attunement. The focus spells from your primary attuned Apparition. Tracking which Apparition is primary. Adjusting your skills when you use an ability that disperses one of your attuned Apparition.
And I am probably missing a couple more.
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I'm not sure how it's supposed to be more complex. You're a prepared caster but your extra slots are based on your apparition, which means you're preparing less than a normal prepared caster, which seems less complex not more.
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You need to split our casting into two halves.
You character is a prepared caster with 2 slots per Spell Rank.
You gain addition specialty slots to cast Apparitions spells which is a small amount of spontanous casting which really sets the class apart from the rest.
Honestly another way to fix this issue, if most peopel think this is an issue is to give them full 4 Slots per Spell Rank but give them the option to burn prepared spells to spontanous cast the handful of Apparition spells.
You need to split our casting into two halves.
I've played a character that split casting in quarters Oracle taking bard, sorcerer and psychic archetypes between free archetype and using all oracle feats for more archetype feats. Animist seems pretty simple in comparison.
barely more complex then regular spellcasting
I actually do like it
it's not a beginner class, that's why it will not be in core 1 or 2 ;)
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I mean, it clearly is more complex than having only prepared or only spontaneous casting.
It's not impossibly hard on its own, but it's one more thing to keep track of.
The question for me is: what is the upside of having this complexity? Does it actually add something cool to the experience of playing the class? If the class had been pure prepared or pure spontaneous, would it be less fun?
Most of the time PF2 does a good job of spending it's "complexity budget" where gives the biggest returns in terms of play experience. Are we getting a good return on investment here?
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I mean, it clearly is more complex than having only prepared or only spontaneous casting.
It's not impossibly hard on its own, but it's one more thing to keep track of.
The question for me is: what is the upside of having this complexity? Does it actually add something cool to the experience of playing the class? If the class had been pure prepared or pure spontaneous, would it be less fun?
Most of the time PF2 does a good job of spending it's "complexity budget" where gives the biggest returns in terms of play experience. Are we getting a good return on investment here?
I really think so.
Now granted, I have always been a fan of the most complex playtest options, and almost universally those elements have been dropped by the time the class goes into play (the magus, the investigator, the kineticist), so my opinion is not one that tends to make it past the playtest, but the animist is the much, much cooler way to do flexible casting within a class chassis than the archetype for it. It is narratively rich, it is both more flexible and more limited in scope, and it interacts really interestingly with feats that differentiate between whether these are your granted spells or basic prepared ones.
For example, how long have people been complaining about spell casting accuracy? Cardinal Guardians is a feat for boosting both spell attack rolls and Spell save DCs vs a solo boss creature in an interesting way. I hope it gets playtested a fair bit. The way it encourages cycling through different spells is very interesting. Like at high levels, if you through out a fireball or earthquake spell and any creatures fails their save, they could be in big trouble next round. Or with Witness to ancient battles, you can true target a cantrip spell attack roll spell against a solo boss, to help your whole team, and set yourself up to deliver a whammy saving throw spell vs the target the following round.
I have been resistant to many accuracy boosting options for spells previously suggested because the ones players keep harping on all create static plans of just casting the same spell over and over again, but just like the shadow signet, this is a really interesting version because it is fairly limited and really requires you not casting the same spell every round. It was a very creative approach.
I mean, it clearly is more complex than having only prepared or only spontaneous casting.
It's not impossibly hard on its own, but it's one more thing to keep track of.
The question for me is: what is the upside of having this complexity? Does it actually add something cool to the experience of playing the class? If the class had been pure prepared or pure spontaneous, would it be less fun?
Most of the time PF2 does a good job of spending it's "complexity budget" where gives the biggest returns in terms of play experience. Are we getting a good return on investment here?
Tnx Ascalaphus you got the point!
The currently animist spell slots are basically divided by half limiting both the number of spellslots you can use to cast your apparition spells and limiting the number of spell slots you can use to prepare your own divine spells.
The other point that always come when we get prepared spell casting is that prepared spells creates a strong desincentive to versatility. The thing is simply: You are in your daily preparations and in 99% of cases you don't know what you will face what do you will prepare? A circunstancial spell that you don't know if you use in that day risking to lock the spell slot that you used to prepare it? Or just put a heal in it grating that you always will having a healing that always have some need? Even remove condition spells falls in this situation. If you prepare a Remove Curse in some of your prepared spellslots (usually a highest one due the counteract check) you serious risk to not be able to use this spell slot in that day because you didn't needed to use its spell basically loosing your top rank spell slot in that day.
Why don't just make everything spontaneous and giving you some spells to your repertoire and allows both your "fixed" repertoire and your apparition's flexible repertoire being able to use all your spell slots spontaneously. This makes everything more flexible, more simple and IMO more fun!
I have been resistant to many accuracy boosting options for spells previously suggested because the ones players keep harping on all create static plans of just casting the same spell over and over again, but just like the shadow signet, this is a really interesting version because it is fairly limited and really requires you not casting the same spell every round. It was a very creative approach.
But that risks alienating players more than attracting.
In the end a lot of people will just look and think/say "that's a tricky thing! I can only use half of my spell slots with apparition and the other half I need to prepare divine spells that are useful throughout the day (usually heal)" .
Not to mention that the class runs the risk of falling into a situation similar to what already happens with the psychic, which is the fact that many people simply take the archetype to escape the limitation of spell slots while benefiting from focus spells. And look, the psychic still has Unleash and several interesting feats to justify playing with the class with less spell slots, the Animist does not reach this level even having more spell slots due the division.
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I'm all about your spirits giving you signature spells while the rest of your slots are prepared based on your cultural practices. Feels strong and thematic! My only quibble is I think animist is a very strong class (or maybe I'm just dazzled by so much fun stuff) and chassis wise it should definitely be a three slot caster; now wether the prepared or spontaneous slots get the short end of that stick I don't know or particularly care
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I think the distinction between prepared and spontaneous works. It's actually pretty much the spellcasting style that I wanted for the Witch class.
A newer player would definitely have a lot to keep track of, but I don't think I'd recommend this to a newer player. If they did go ahead with one it's pretty straightforward how the casting works: for prepared you pick from the Divine list and pop them on your prepared column for the day. Your spontaneous column is the spells from these spirits, cast them however you want.
Actually not having to deal with Signature Spells makes it kinda less complicated. Can't tell you how many times I've had to go over those rules with players.
Most of the time PF2 does a good job of spending it's "complexity budget" where gives the biggest returns in terms of play experience. Are we getting a good return on investment here?
For the most part, I think it does.
The other point that always come when we get prepared spell casting is that prepared spells creates a strong desincentive to versatility. The thing is simply: You are in your daily preparations and in 99% of cases you don't know what you will face what do you will prepare? A circunstancial spell that you don't know if you use in that day risking to lock the spell slot that you used to prepare it? Or just put a heal in it grating that you always will having a healing that always have some need?
I prefer prepared spellcasting. You are right, you can play it similar to a spontaneous caster by always preparing the same general purpose spells in your slots. But it isn't required.
Also, the Divine list has the most spells that are crucial to have, but not time sensitive enough to have to have immediately. Cleric has always been really good at "don't worry, I'll fix that for you tomorrow."
Witch and Divine Sorcerer and especially Divine Summoner don't do that as well. Witch because they have to spend time and money learning those needed spells, and Sorcerer/Summoner because they are spontaneous casters that aren't able to grab the needed spell the next morning.
I do think the spellcasting is complicated but not just because of is a prepared and spontaneous. That is a bit heavier on the book keeping end so it could be troublesome for some at the table but in a VTT like foundry this is easy.
The things that stand out are for the spontaneous end your spirits can be dispersed removing their spells for a while and on top of this you have focus point casting but only with your primary spirit so that is another thing you need to keep track of with the spontaneous spellcasting on this class.
Along with the ability to freely change up your spirits from day to day, though a player can always settle on their preferred favorites that can be another factor to consider. Adding on to that are the wandering feats which you can replace daily too with another wandering feat incase your change of spirits renders a feat invalid!
I do love this class reading it and I'm curious how it'll feel with some actual play!
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Nice username. 10/10.
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From what I am reading and analyzing, even though the class can technically get 4 spell slots per level at high level - for their lower level spell ranks, they feel like they are two half casters at about the spellcaster power of Psychic.
It is like a Psychic that got homebrewed to use Divine tradition and prepared casting like a Cleric, with a Sorcerer archetype casting and a homebrew change to Bloodline Breadth that gives them one spell slot of their highest casting ranks at the cost of only letting them get the bloodline granted spells in Repertoire, but from two different bloodlines.
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I mean, it clearly is more complex than having only prepared or only spontaneous casting.
I fundamentally disagree.
My wizard has to handpick spells in every slot, and one of those slots has restrictions I have to juggle around.
My animist just gets some of those slots picked for them by their spirit. That's less things I'm tracking, not more.