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So I watched the stream last night, and I had one issue with the exemplar as it was described, but I thought I'd wait until I actually had my hands on the playtest before saying anything.
First of all, I like the class. I want to get this out of the way. I appreciate all the hard work that has gone into it, and I understand it must have taken a lot of blood, sweat, and tears. I'm not trying to take away from any of that. Good job to Paizo writers, thank you for working hard to give us a fun, flavorful class. There are a few more build options I'd like to see, (the writers promised an unarmored build that doesn't seem to be in the playtest, I'd like to see maybe a feat or body ikon that gives you armor without wearing armor, not just DR of skin like horn) but I assume those will come with the full version.
The one issue I have is both bigger than all that, and also easier to fix. Why is the class so restrictive from a meta standpoint?
So I'm going to start off by saying I understand. This is supposed to be the Heracles class. The Sun Wukong, Kingarou, Maui. I understand the inspiration. I also get that it is supposed to be tied to the big world shake up coming in War of the Immortals. I understand your starting point. But I feel like that is it . . . it's a starting point.
I understand making the demigod class rare. You don't want 42 million new demigods running around Golarion . . . I get it. But it doesn't have to be that way.
The thing is, you have made something more versatile, that, with a bit of reflavoring and no mechanics changes, can be made much more widely available. What if your Exemplar is the equivalent of a Sohei monk from first edition? Someone who has meditated and studied swordplay (or whatever) for years? Instead of a 'divine spark' he focuses his chi/ki/spirit energy into one of his family relics that are attuned to him? Honestly, almost all of the stuff there still works. Any supernatural abilities are use of his ki channeled through his family heirlooms (or whatever). Domain powers? The character is either devoted to a god enough to get domain powers (like an archetyped cleric/champion) or maybe their supreme training and mastery of spiritual energy has given them the equivalent of a domain spell.
It seems like, with a bit of reflavoring, you could turn this into a much more common class, one that wouldn't have the rare tag.
Listen, it seems lately, the paradigm of Pathfinder is to NOT tell players how their class got their powers. How does an animist get their powers? Maybe some are born with it, maybe some train to get it, maybe it is a twist of fate? Same with Kineticists, psychics, summoners, thaumaturges. You don't tell any player HOW those classes gain their abilities, leaving the player free to make up their own story. Maybe you unlocked your psychic potential though intensive study? Maybe others did a ritual to open your kinetic gate, maybe it was some twist of fate that you got an eidolon.
Point is, Paizo has been really good about not limiting storytelling recently, so why backtrack now? I'm NOT asking to get rid of the divine power angle, that is fine, I'm asking you to make it one of several possible options. Maybe an nephelim decides to explore their celestial/fiendish heritage, becoming the martial equivalent of a sorcerer? Maybe someone with psychic potential develops their power differently, empowering their body and items with psychic energy instead of casting spells. Maybe a god needs a moral assistant, not a champion bound by laws and codes, but a devoted follower capable of doing the dirty work. The possibilities this class offers are really quite wide, and I don't see why it is restricted unnecessarily.
Like I said, I get where you are coming from. Got that. Don't want to take that away. Understand the original mission statement. But not only did you come up with a solution that solved that initial slot you wanted to fill, but it also works in a myriad of different ways and I'd just hate to see that potential wasted.
What's my solution? I dunno, maybe add a sidebar in the book explaining that you can reflavor some of the class and make it more widely available. That the War of the Immortals has in fact given rise to these new heroes, but that there is another, harder route to obtaining similar power. That it is rare that the power is just gifted to someone, but that it is possible to earn it.
Just two ending things I want to reiterate. 1) not trying to take a dump on the class, like the concept, like the idea. 2) I understand that this is supposed to be a 'new class' to the world of Golarion. You don't have to take that away. I'm just saying, Golarion doesn't operate (in-universe) as a world of classes. (A.K.A weather you are beaten up by a swashbuckler or a rogue with a rapier doesn't matter to the bad guy beaten up, they were, both times, beaten up by a 'fencer'). These new 'mythic heroes' can still be new to Golarion, whereas the world could have had Sohei monks who just happen to have mechanically similar abilities for a while.
Don't take away our ability to tell stories with our character, add new options.
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sounds like a good option to home brew it at your table
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becoming the martial equivalent of a sorcerer?
I mean, isn't the class already kind of that? Character who through circumstance becomes imbued with divine power not necessarily connected to a god is functionally in the same space to how Sorcerers and Oracles work already (if anything already a lot more open ended than both), so I'm sort of confused why there's so much singling out of Exemplars for working in a similar way (not just here but in general).
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becoming the martial equivalent of a sorcerer?I mean, isn't the class already kind of that? Character who through circumstance becomes imbued with divine power not necessarily connected to a god is functionally in the same space to how Sorcerers and Oracles work already (if anything already a lot more open ended than both), so I'm sort of confused why there's so much singling out of Exemplars for working in a similar way (not just here but in general).
My point is 'why make them rare?' I get the circumstances surrounding the Iconic's promotion to Exault are rare, and there should probably only be a handful of people running around the world with god-blood powering them, but I'd like to see other options that are not rare (especially for pathfinder society.)
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i think this is a case of them tying classes to story and lore of the happenings of golarion
they could have made the flavor of exemplar different and thus not rare
but they are tying it to a theme, the rare tag is just to show its a very specific theme.
i think its an easy thing to change at your table. with minimal impact.
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My point is 'why make them rare?'Because being Rare means you have to talk to your GM about playing one. It's not saying you can't play it, it's saying that in a normal game set in Golarion choosing this option has Story Implications, and that's something that you should work with your GM to hammer out rather than just showing up with a demigod and ignoring how much of an impact that would have from a roleplaying perspective.
Either you talk to your GM about playing a demigod and the way that might affect the story, or you tell your GM "I like these mechanics but I want to use a different source for my power.", which is also something you need to work out with your GM.
I mean, ideally, you should talk to your GM about any character you make. A GM might say that his campaign might not work well with Summoners. Maybe a homebrew setting doesn't even have druids!
Secondly, my entire point was you could ditch the demigod angle and still have them work as a class by reflavoring them as a different kind of monk (and have their 'divine spark' be 'focust chi' or something). Or a different kind of psychic. I just . . .
I'm saying not since the APG have we had the means by which a class gets their powers explained, they've been leaving that up to the players so they can come up with cool stories. Why change it now? Have demigod NPCs show up! Have them Rare and new! That's great! Maybe I just want to be a swordsman who has honed their skill so much that I have developed supernatural abilties. I don't want the demigod baggage. Why take that option away/not make it available?
Like I said, all I'm asking for is a sidebar saying 'hey, you can make this class non-rare by reflavoring it like this,' so people know it is an option. There are some GMs and players over there that are very literal or not used to reflavoring who might not think about it. They might just see 'rare' and gloss over it because their GM said 'no rare stuff.'
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Like I said, all I'm asking for is a sidebar saying 'hey, you can make this class non-rare by reflavoring it like this,' so people know it is an option.Sure, that would be a useful thing to have... in the final product. Which this is not.
I . . . I know this isn't the final product. It is something where they are explicitly asking for feedback. This is my feedback. My feedback is 'make the class more available and don't limit the way people can get into it, just like every other class you have put out in the past three years."
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This was pretty much my first thought as well. My first impression on the mechanical side of things is very positive and just the pure flavor it exudes is awesome. It just so cool!
But I've never been so torn about a class for reasons that aren't mechanical.
Because is also a class that is essentially unplayable because of what it is. Every line of flavor text tells you that this is the "I am the main character" class. Forget the rare tag, without extensive reflavoring, I wouldn't feel comfortable to ever give this to even a player I trust. As a player, I wouldn't trust myself to play this class outside of the "unwilling hero" trope. It is just so easy to make the entire narrative about yourself and you'd constantly have to check yourself not to do that, which I'm not comfortable with.
So yeah, we desperately need that sidebar that turns it down about 10 notches.
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I 100% agree with you, this class flavouring limits it a lot, I too feel like it should be more a generic "martial sorcerer".
I also cannot stand the names of the feats and such, they are worded in such a unnecessary bombasticly epic way that makes them sound silly but that is just me. Seven colored cosmic bridge? Really guys? I understand that this is a beta but come on xD
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Every line of flavor text tells you that this is the "I am the main character" class.
I mean, not really? The core flavor of the class is that via some circumstance you've gained access to some mystical power.
That puts it more or less in the same ballpark as sorcerers, oracles, kineticists, even some flavorings of witch, psychic, barbarian...
Like, our Exemplar could easily find themselves in a party with someone who is literally chosen by god (a cleric or paladin), someone who can bend the fabric of reality because they read a book once (a wizard), and someone who gets to be stronger than all of the above for no particular reason at all he's just that special (a fighter).
... The guy who got exposed to some demonic radiation and now gets to do +2 damage with his spear is honestly the least extra person there, narratively.
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Every line of flavor text tells you that this is the "I am the main character" class.I mean, not really? The core flavor of the class is that via some circumstance you've gained access to some mystical power.
That puts it more or less in the same ballpark as sorcerers, oracles, kineticists, even some flavorings of witch, psychic, barbarian...
Like, our Exemplar could easily find themselves in a party with someone who is literally chosen by god (a cleric or paladin), someone who can bend the fabric of reality because they read a book once (a wizard), and someone who gets to be stronger than all of the above for no particular reason at all he's just that special (a fighter).
... The guy who got exposed to some demonic radiation and now gets to do +2 damage with his spear is honestly the least extra person there, narratively.
I would say "yes really".
Some examples:"Take other heroes under your wing, that your legend may live on
through them"
"Feel the weight of immense expectations and obligation."
"Think of you as larger than life, the nexus of any grand tale."
"Look to you in times of crisis, thinking you can handle any challenge."
This is some primo MC stuff right here. The fact that the actual rules do not refletc this too much is fine but the flavour is all there
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I think the Rare tag is more because the Exemplar's presence enforces a specific tone for any campaign he's in; not a main character problem, but more just that the class's abilities are really bombastic for, say, a struggle to survive in the horrors of Ustalav.
I wish someone would just make a thread simply title “Remove the Rare tag” so it can be out there plain and simple.
I’m going to admit that I’m in a bind. Thematically, I prefer the Animist, but as I don’t play spellcasters the Animist is a complete miss for me. Doesn’t exist, and what I did see peering through the veils I didn’t really like.
So, the Exemplar. I would play one, and I’d likely 9 out of 10 times reflavour out absolutely all the godspark stuff - that one time out of 10 I…might play it as is, in a campaign where the theme is broadly applicable. Remove the theme of epithets and you have a powerful warrior - it doesn’t need to be ultra-heroic and meaningful to sagatellers.
I just think that whacking the Rare tag on a new class is an overcautious design decision that will necesssrily limit how much it sees use. And what is the point of that? Make new classes where there is as little to no filter to engagement. Bespoke is anathematic to widespread use. Personally I get it. It’s larger than life. But beyond mundane weapons and armor and humans as the only ancestry the entire setting is over the top. I don’t see this pushing any envelopes beyond the corny names and descriptions for the abilities. I’ll just wipe all that off and play as the mechanics are written.
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I think the Rare tag is more because the Exemplar's presence enforces a specific tone for any campaign he's in; not a main character problem, but more just that the class's abilities are really bombastic for, say, a struggle to survive in the horrors of Ustalav.
That too, but let's be real here. You are an actual demigod that claims aspects of divinity, possibly on their way to true godhood. Your Ikons are given to you by providence. Your abilities are marketed as "surpassing mortal limitations" or you "[holding] dominion over the ocean" and instead of getting domain spells you take them.
Not calling this "main character syndrome" is a stretch.
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I figured I'd be one of the few complaining about the rarity here. But apparently the choir here is much bigger than I imagined.
Come on, thematically in my opinion the class has little to justify the rarity trait. In a world where you have sorcerers with powers that trace bloodlines and extraplanar and magical influences of all kinds, oracles who are supercharged with divine power, kineticists who draw power from the elemental planes as if it were as normal as moving your own arm. Putting the thematic feature and all that exaggeration into a class that in the end won't be better than any other seems to me...exaggeration.
My biggest problem here is that this damn tag is going to confuse some players' minds. I'm already seeing some GMs saying "no, you can't take this class on my table because it's rare, and because you'll be a demi-god!".
As for the "in a normal game set in Golarion" argument. Honestly, if you're going to play almost every AP it doesn't matter!
Come on, you're going on a caravan to Plaguestone, you're a demigod who's practically no better than anyone else, nobody knows you and you're accompanied by other party members as good as you are, so what's this tag for same?
Or have you, demigod, arrived in Breachhill, and so great demigod, do you mind taking the job of investigating the citadel along with your companions?
I think in Extision Curse it makes some difference with you performing in the circus as the Great Demigod.
Let's face it, its divine origin won't matter 99% of the time. For me, this trait will only generate controversy and confusion.
Not calling this "main character syndrome" is a stretch.
It's about as main character-y as every other character (arguably less for the reasons I already stated).
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If it were a normal setting other classes might be "MC character". But in the Golarion setting everyone else is frankly normal.
But examplar is literally "oh I am a god". Its not "I am magical" like the Magus (who could have had the enchant your weapon abilities, its not "I am borrowing power" like the Warpriest should had been, and its not "I am that skilled" like the Fighter or Monk. It is literally "I am a literal god, praise me".
The fact that the class is not that strong mechanically just makes it look like even more of a narcissist than the theme implies.
This is also why all the outlandish names and abilities trigger so many red flags. Yeah they are cool chunni names, but that is literal cringe main character syndrome: The class reads like something a literal 8th grader would make to be the most awesomest coolest character.
I very much disagree. The feature and ability names are in-line with the mythological stories and characters from which the class draws its inspirations.
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I think that what Temperans want to say is that you get all this epic things but I are no better than your fighter friend that's fighting with you. This makes all these epic description and the rarity tag looks like a joke or a Don Quixote character that acts like as if everything was more epic to it than it's to others.
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But is that really the crux of the problem here? Can it really be: “We gave it over-the-top flavor in an “over the top setting” and we can’t trust folx not to play as anitsocial buttnuts?”
I say again. It’s unnecessary. Or, it speaks to the design of the flavor being too ostentatious. Why design classes to be Rare? Who approved that and why? Why would that be a good business decision. I’m already only half interested in this playtest due to the other class being a complex caster, and almost non-interested in the forthcoming book due to the theme.
I get that Paizo very very occasionally “tries” something - who knew Distant Worlds would be so successful? Who knew Iron Gods would be so successful. Ehrmagherd. There for both of them. And look Starfinder comes along. But this weird way of approaching a mythic style game is…weird.
Just remove the Rare tag. I would suggest toning down the myth-hype, but that seems…dear to the class or somethjng. Like I said, I’ll be scraping ALL the over the top flavor off this puppy almost everytime I play or run a game it is in.
I'm with you on this.
Since the APG, I have to admit that these 2 classes have been the least excited for me so far.
It is literally "I am a literal god, praise me".
Literally incorrect. Like just objectively entirely wrong here.
I think that what Temperans want to say is that you get all this epic things but I are no better than your fighter friend that's fighting with you. This makes all these epic description and the rarity tag looks like a joke or a Don Quixote character that acts like as if everything was more epic to it than it's to others.
It's kind of bizarre to both complain about the class being too much and also not enough at the same time.
It's a class, like any other. Like, yeah, you channel your innate divine essence to perform supernatural feats. You know who else does that? Sorcerers. I guess you're banning those from your table too, right?
I agree they could drop the rare tag and it wouldn't matter, arguably this thread is a decent example of why maybe they should since people are freaking out more over their perceptions based on the class' rarity than anything the class actually does.
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I agree they could drop the rare tag and it wouldn't matter, arguably this thread is a decent example of why maybe they should since people are freaking out more over their perceptions based on the class' rarity than anything the class actually does.
But does the class actually do anything that requires the Rare tag? This is kind of my central point. Behind all the ostentation, is it really anything special? If not, treat it as a regular class.
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I agree they could drop the rare tag and it wouldn't matter, arguably this thread is a decent example of why maybe they should since people are freaking out more over their perceptions based on the class' rarity than anything the class actually does.But does the class actually do anything that requires the Rare tag? This is kind of my central point. Behind all the ostentation, is it really anything special? If not, treat it as a regular class.
I mean, on a very technical level yes (e.g. Claim Divine Domain), but everything returns to a single point - you are a literal demigod. Beyond any lore explanation that they are a new thing, this inherently has massive potential to create discord at the table. If you were to tone that down in the flavor text, then you are absolutely correct, this class wouldn't need to be rare. For example, you getting to level 20 could be framed as you "claiming your inheritance" and becoming a true demigod. The hero's journey is a cool theme, but it doesn't really work if you are already the hero at the start.
It's a class, like any other. Like, yeah, you channel your innate divine essence to perform supernatural feats. You know who else does that? Sorcerers. I guess you're banning those from your table too, right?
There is a world of difference in how those two are framed. In case of the Sorcerers, one of your ancestors went at it with an angel or you were bathed in holy water or something and now you can use magic-DNA to cast magic. That makes them special, but not moreso than someone who can ask sky dad for their allowance. Angels aren't even remotely comparable to actual gods. The Exemplar on the other hand starts as a nascent god or at least a demigod. They are more special than anyone else short of other demigods by default. They aren't just like everyone else.
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There is a world of difference in how those two are framed.
The world of difference is mostly in what you're putting into it yourself, though. Like, the word demigod you keep repeating doesn't even appear in the playtest document.
or you were bathed in holy water or something and now you can use magic-DNA to cast magic.
Bathed in weird divine energy and now he has divine powers is literally the iconic exemplar's backstory.
They aren't just like everyone else.
But they are. Narratively, they're in the same space as a sorcerer or kineticist or oracle in terms of being a mortal tapping into some inhuman, extraplanar power via circumstance. Mechanically, they're a decent-ish martial (admittedly a couple abilities seem a bit overtuned but you can probably chalk that up to playtest jank).
When you put your 'imbued with divine energy' exemplar in the same room as a Fighter, the Fighter's going to be just as good or better in their own ways. So much for your 'literal demigod' who's better and more special than everyone else.
There's nothing here worth writing home about, except that Paizo slapped a rare tag on them for whatever reason.
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Regarding "does class need a rare tag", isn't that just you saying that no class should have flavor that makes it feel rare in the world though?
I do think its okay occasionally to design things to be cool because it is cool
I absolutely wouldn't mind that staying the default. The people who wrote this clearly had a lot of fun doing so and I don't want to rain on that parade. It's also an interesting addition to the lore. The names should stay in any case, they are awesome ^^.
I really only want a sidebar that gives advice on how to make this more widely playable, nothing more.
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There is a world of difference in how those two are framed.The world of difference is mostly in what you're putting into it yourself, though. Like, the word demigod you keep repeating doesn't even appear in the playtest document.
Yes, but it does in the announcement and the document itself does frequently talk about "nascent god" and becoming a literal god. So in my eyes that's pure semantics.
Bathed in weird divine energy and now he has divine powers is literally the iconic exemplar's backstory.
And if that was all there is to it I wouldn't be worried. That is an awesome backstory and theme. But having your innate divine angel (or in this case demon) power isn't even close to having your own divine god power.
They aren't just like everyone else.But they are. Narratively, they're in the same space as a sorcerer or kineticist or oracle in terms of being a mortal tapping into some inhuman, extraplanar power via circumstance.
The difference is purely one of degree and I don't see how that doesn't make a difference. If one person is framed as tapping a decent size generator and the other their personal nuclear reactor, how is that not significant?
And the mechanics are fine. I have zero problem with those, apart from some playtest jank as you mentioned.
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I think reason why flavor refers it to as god power is that you can break laws of physics in supernatural ways that aren't considered magic.
Like high level Exemplar can "cast hydraulic push" by literally wrestling a river and wizard can't dispel or counteract it because its not actually magic.
I like that much better than D&D 3.5 deities with statblock having at will wish
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Regarding "does class need a rare tag", isn't that just you saying that no class should have flavor that makes it feel rare in the world though?
Having thought about this further, given that the Gunslinger and the Inventor have a Rarity value of Uncommon, I’m going to withdraw any contention about Exemplars being Rare. Rarity is clearly a thing, and has a purpose. Personally I’ll ignore it completely, and everyone else is free to do so also.
I do think its okay occasionally to design things to be cool because it is cool
Or even usually instead of occasionally, as long as things are also good.
Well a fun meme to resume the situation.
Yes you can ignore the rare trait (and you probably must). But this trait is already making the people to be careful and restrictive with the class with no good reason. It's just because the rarity trait is there.
About gunslinger/inventor uncommon trait. They are there for a more practical reason that's explain that theses classes are more rare in Avistan region due the lack of availability of firearms and "technological" trinkets there (even with firearms being available in almost the rest of the world).
I agree they could drop the rare tag and it wouldn't matter, arguably this thread is a decent example of why maybe they should since people are freaking out more over their perceptions based on the class' rarity than anything the class actually does.But does the class actually do anything that requires the Rare tag? This is kind of my central point. Behind all the ostentation, is it really anything special? If not, treat it as a regular class.
At-will flight at level 10; infinite, rather quick self-healing. Not much else, after my first read-through.
Well a fun meme to resume the situation.
Yes you can ignore the rare trait (and you probably must). But this trait is already making the people to be careful and restrictive with the class with no good reason. It's just because the rarity trait is there.
About gunslinger/inventor uncommon trait. They are there for a more practical reason that's explain that theses classes are more rare in Avistan region due the lack of availability of firearms and "technological" trinkets there (even with firearms being available in almost the rest of the world).
Uhhh you link to my feedback post but I'm not being restrictive "with no good reason." I'm not being restrictive at all, I talked about the discussion I had with my players about the playtest document. I'd kindly ask you leave me out of your anti-rare tag crusade here.
I'd let any player I currently play with roll an Exemplar, but I'd want them to engage with it a little more than just "here's my guy he fights." I'd ask the same of a Champion or Cleric, that they do some homework on their deity, edicts, and anathema. I already do the same for Gunslingers and Inventors since I run games in Golarion, and these things usually have specific regions and backgrounds, and not just anyone simply has a gun in Golarion.
I do have people I've played with in the past I probably wouldn't give the go-ahead to, because they'd 100% take the themes of the class and be insufferable about it. There are also campaigns I've run in the past where the theme of the class wouldn't fit--it's pretty high fantasy stuff, and sometimes I like to run grittier or low fantasy games.
It's a tool to empower GMs. That's it. I'd bet most tables it doesn't even matter.
And if that was all there is to it I wouldn't be worried. That is an awesome backstory and theme. But having your innate divine angel (or in this case demon) power isn't even close to having your own divine god power.
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The difference is purely one of degree and I don't see how that doesn't make a difference. If one person is framed as tapping a decent size generator and the other their personal nuclear reactor, how is that not significant?
Counterpoint: Oracle, a common class, as described in the APG (and honestly I'm hoping they don't actually get rid of this in the Rework, it's actually one of my favorite bits of flavor from Oracle): Legitimately the second sentence of the Mystery feature lists "a direct and dangerous conduit to raw divine power" as a potential source of their magic. Now maybe it's just me, but this seems like basically the exact same thing as the Exemplar's Divine Spark is providing. It's just rather than getting phenomenal cosmic power (10th-level casting) but with some drawbacks (a curse) like the Oracle, their channel just gives them some relatively smaller perks (Body Ikon) and conducts the rest more safely through some gear (Weapon and Worn Ikons).
Counterpoint: Oracle, a common class, as described in the APG (and honestly I'm hoping they don't actually get rid of this in the Rework, it's actually one of my favorite bits of flavor from Oracle): Legitimately the second sentence of the Mystery feature lists "a direct and dangerous conduit to raw divine power" as a potential source of their magic. Now maybe it's just me, but this seems like basically the exact same thing as the Exemplar's Divine Spark is providing. It's just rather than getting phenomenal cosmic power (10th-level casting) but with some drawbacks (a curse) like the Oracle, their channel just gives them some relatively smaller perks (Body Ikon) and conducts the rest more safely through some gear (Weapon and Worn Ikons).And if that was all there is to it I wouldn't be worried. That is an awesome backstory and theme. But having your innate divine angel (or in this case demon) power isn't even close to having your own divine god power.
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The difference is purely one of degree and I don't see how that doesn't make a difference. If one person is framed as tapping a decent size generator and the other their personal nuclear reactor, how is that not significant?
Critically, even if they go that route, the oracle isn't any degree of god and they also have close to no control over the matter. There doesn't even have to be a god involved, divine power can come from any outsider. Then there is the whole crippling curse thing. Comparing that to the Exemplar claiming a divine domain at the start of their entire career is a stretch.
The two narratives are night and day.
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Critically, even if they go that route, the oracle isn't any degree of god and they also have close to no control over the matter. There doesn't even have to be a god involved, divine power can come from any outsider. Then there is the whole crippling curse thing. Comparing that to the Exemplar claiming a divine domain at the start of their entire career is a stretch.
The two narratives are night and day.
Splitting up because a good amount to say here.
"they also have close to no control over the matter."
Says who? "Mortal who reached out and grasped a Primordial Divine Essence, with intentions of Ascending" seems just as valid an Oracle backstory as anything, and if anything seems like it would fit well with the source of their power being (again, this is a direct quote as a potential source of the Oracle's Mystery feature) "a direct and dangerous conduit to raw divine power".
"There doesn't even have to be a god involved, divine power can come from any outsider."
There doesn't even have to be an outsider involved. Again, I quote "a direct and dangerous conduit". Emphasis mine this time. Oracles tapping directly into the Divine Juice that Gods themselves pull from is as valid as one being bestowed their power by a God or lesser Outsider.
"Then there is the whole crippling curse thing."
Well yeah Oracles get more backlash. They're pulling Reality Warping levels of power through their conduit (again, 10th-level casting), the Exemplar's getting some fancy toys and maybe a little juicing. If anything this brand of Oracle is coming closer to God-like power.
"Comparing that to the Exemplar claiming a divine domain at the start of their entire career is a stretch."
Exemplar, level 2 feat: "While domain spells usually come from a deity, you’ve learned to tap the properties of your own divine spark to manifest domain magic."
Meanwhile the Oracle (who again can by RAW be tapping a direct conduit to raw divine power) can manifest that same level of Domain magic right out of the gate, and with their level 2 feat can do the same thing with a second Domain. The only difference is that Oracle is forced to be on theme while Exemplars can pull any domains, but frankly I'd be as disappointed in Exemplars who ignore their own thematics in the name of just power-building as much as I would be seeing the same thing from any other class.
So in conclusion...
The two narratives are night and day.
I disagree.
ETA: On revisiting the text again, the class description of Oracle also mentions Circumventing the Gods, Oracle's Divine Spellcasting feature states clearly that their power comes directly from their Mystery, and the first line of Mystery (so just before the second line I've been quoting part of) explicitly states that "An oracle wields divine power, but not from a single divine being" so it's definitely not just being fed to them by "an outsider" as you implied being an option in your second sentence.
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I'm pretty sure that the intention is not to have the Oracle's mystery be linked to a specific set of deities, except as a backchannel a la "you have insight on the mystery of fire, so have access to divinities with the fire domain".
Like the mysteries paragraph in the APG playtest was:
An oracle’s powers arise not from the blessings of a single deity, but from the combined power of a given concept or ideal, manifested from the attention of multiple divine entities whose portfolios all touch on that subject. This is the oracle’s mystery, a source of divine power not beholden to any one god.The corresponding text in the actual APG is
An oracle wields divine power, but not from a single divine being. This power could come from a potent concept or ideal, the attention of multiple divine entities whose areas of concern all touch on that subject, or a direct and dangerous conduit to raw divine power. This is the oracle’s mystery, a source of divine magic not beholden to any deity.
This is consistent with how it appears that domains predate deities in a sense, i.e. how Lamashtu ripped the beast domain from Curchanus, implying that "the beast domain" is a thing that has a separate existence from Lamashtu or Curchanus. Like if every deity with the fire domain were to die in the upcoming event, there would still be a fire domain.
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There doesn't even have to be a god involved, divine power can come from any outsider.
... like the demon the iconic exemplar gained his power from?
There is a pretty big difference between a class that can be used for a character that has incredible narrative plot importance as it say directly wields the power of a god/demigod and one that has that be its default assumption in flavour, I don't even think a rare traited class having that main character flavour as its default assumption is bad but I do think that is what they've done with the exemplar (I do think the flavour of the exemplar is too broad which leads to problems with the clashing of mechanics and flavour but that is a separate complaint again)
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There doesn't even have to be a god involved, divine power can come from any outsider.... like the demon the iconic exemplar gained his power from?
The iconic is actually a pretty interesting example; his story sounds like he was already a high enough level Fighter to be 1v1'ing powerful demons before getting forcibly retrained into Exemplar.
The iconic is actually a pretty interesting example; his story sounds like he was already a high enough level Fighter to be 1v1'ing powerful demons before getting forcibly retrained into Exemplar.There doesn't even have to be a god involved, divine power can come from any outsider.... like the demon the iconic exemplar gained his power from?
I found it weirder still:
… He faced the beast high in the sky, and even as his spear pierced it, its talons dug into his flesh.…
How the hell did he get “high in the sky”?!?
… He faced the beast high in the sky, and even as his spear pierced it, its talons dug into his flesh.…How the hell did he get “high in the sky”?!?
I just assume the demon grabbed him and flew up to drop him to his death. After all it's part of the Exemplar flavour that the tale that gets told is bigger than what actually happened, so you could totally have "the flying demon was about to drop him from 200 feet" turn into "Brave Nahoa, Born of the Bones of The Earth, Faced The Beast High In The Sky and Pierced its Wicked Heart"
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There doesn't even have to be a god involved, divine power can come from any outsider.... like the demon the iconic exemplar gained his power from?
That's why that backstory is so weird. It's super cool, but doesn't match the description of the class. The description very openly tells us that your spark is god-divine, not servitor-divine, right there in the initial blurb. And demons aren't gods. So unless he specifically shanked one of the demon lords, he can't be an Exemplar. We pretty much have to infer that he actually just single-handedly killed a demon lord, something in the level 25 category, which is wild.
If that level of backstory - without the demon lord part ofc - was the default assumption for this class, I wouldn't be worried. It'd still have a bit more protagonist energy than normal, simply due to its very "Greek heroes" style core narrative, but only to a degree that you can reasonably deal with. The rare tag would still be justified, but there would be many stories and parties it could fit in. It's purely the default assumption of godhood that is problematic.