Isn't it the demon made him a nephilim, not the Exemplar?
Isn't it the demon made him a nephilim, not the Exemplar?
It's unclear, but probably more reasonable to assume he was one beforehand. After all, what the hell is a normal farmer going to do that a "great demon" of any caliber? Certainly more plausible than him shanking a demigod.
Isn't it the demon made him a nephilim, not the Exemplar?It's unclear, but probably more reasonable to assume he was one beforehand. After all, what the hell is a normal farmer going to do that a "great demon" of any caliber? Certainly more plausible than him shaking a demigod.
Yeah, pretty sure it was that his island chain was bathed in god-stuff during the divine war and the demon battle made him a nephilim after the fact. (If I recall the livestream correctly.)
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Well there might be some clearing up to do in the iconic’s writeup, because to me it is super murky. Not a big deal in the scheme of things however.
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While it could use a hint as to where his power actually comes from, I think Nahoa's backstory actually illustrates a good point. The entire "you are a god(ling)" part of the class' theme being the default is really unnecessary. If anything, it limits the concept for very little gain. Words like god, demigod and the like have a lot of implications when it comes to power and status that lower levels and most narratives have no reasonable way to accommodate. Let's be honest, how many GM's will happily elevate a player over the others like this and how many will just say you can play one but aren't a demigod?
So instead of keeping the theme as-is and adding that sidebar, why not the other way around? Scrub every mention of godhood from the text and leave your source of power more open. Bestowal by a greater power, overcoming great adversity (such as in Nahoa's backstory as presented in the document), birthright, fate and so on. Basically a (usually) more involved sorcerer who gained great physical prowess instead of magic.
And to keep the possibility of playing an actual demigod in, you add a sidebar to that effect.
I think this would be much more reasonable.
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So unless he specifically shanked one of the demon lords, he can't be an Exemplar.
... If you're reaching the point that you're telling the designers they don't understand their own class' flavor and narrative maybe that's a clue that you're the one misunderstanding something here?
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I feel like some of the flavoring of the Exemplar in the playtest is restricted by "they don't want to tip their hand as to what happens in War of the Immortals" a thing they're going to be more willing to discuss in the actual book.
While it could use a hint as to where his power actually comes from, I think Nahoa's backstory actually illustrates a good point. The entire "you are a god(ling)" part of the class' theme being the default is really unnecessary. If anything, it limits the concept for very little gain. Words like god, demigod and the like have a lot of implications when it comes to power and status that lower levels and most narratives have no reasonable way to accommodate. Let's be honest, how many GM's will happily elevate a player over the others like this and how many will just say you can play one but aren't a demigod?
So instead of keeping the theme as-is and adding that sidebar, why not the other way around? Scrub every mention of godhood from the text and leave your source of power more open. Bestowal by a greater power, overcoming great adversity (such as in Nahoa's backstory as presented in the document), birthright, fate and so on. Basically a (usually) more involved sorcerer who gained great physical prowess instead of magic.
And to keep the possibility of playing an actual demigod in, you add a sidebar to that effect.I think this would be much more reasonable.
[Emphasis mine]
This is precisely what I have advocated from the get go. As you said elsewhere, the designers clearly had a lot of fun with the ability names etc, but to me they are a giant narrative turn off. I would rename every ability, feat, name that reaches into that space.
And funny you mention “birthright” because I’ve been thinking about the Birthright Campaign Setting, whose bigger antagonists were created when a godbattle led to the death of the dark god Azrai and all the other gods. The god-spatter fell to the earth and created scions destined to rule; and the antagonists, made from the gobbets of Azrai named awnsheghlein, the major bigbads. Pretty much exemplars.
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So unless he specifically shanked one of the demon lords, he can't be an Exemplar.... If you're reaching the point that you're telling the designers they don't understand their own class' flavor and narrative maybe that's a clue that you're the one misunderstanding something here?
It is absolutely a misunderstanding. The problem is that that misunderstanding is only cleared up by information that isn't in the document, so I didn't know it at the time. I can only interpret what is there. I can't take into account information I'm not told.
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I think it's fine. Thor pals around with a Fighter, a Rogue, an Inventor, a Ranger, and a Barbarian just fine, after all.
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Yes. But Æsir aren't rare there. Just like thor there's a lot of other deities fighting along the heroes in Marvel Universe.
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I think it's fine. Thor pals around with a Fighter, a Rogue, an Inventor, a Ranger, and a Barbarian just fine, after all.
Are you trying to say that Thor is on the same power level as hawk eye and black widow?
Well there are many stories where such low powered characters compensate using their own intelligence, strategy and skills.
You don't need to be the Thor to deal with Loki in Marvel stories.
In TTRPG this will be represented by the game balance. A rogue cannot maybe not have godlike powers but its skills with precise damage and stealth/distractive tactics can be fatal agains many exemplars specially those that overestimate their powers.
Such kind of stories are pretty common in pop culture.
Well there are many stories where such low powered characters compensate using their own intelligence, strategy and skills.
You don't need to be the Thor to deal with Loki in Marvel stories.
In TTRPG this will be represented by the game balance. A rogue cannot maybe not have godlike powers but its skills with precise damage and stealth/distractive tactics can be fatal agains many exemplars specially those that overestimate their powers.
Such kind of stories are pretty common in pop culture.
I can definetly attest that my pf2e experience is not one of those
I think it's fine. Thor pals around with a Fighter, a Rogue, an Inventor, a Ranger, and a Barbarian just fine, after all.Are you trying to say that Thor is on the same power level as hawk eye and black widow?
I mean he is definitely the same power level as the Hulk.
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I think it's fine. Thor pals around with a Fighter, a Rogue, an Inventor, a Ranger, and a Barbarian just fine, after all.Are you trying to say that Thor is on the same power level as hawk eye and black widow?
No, I am saying that this has been the case for 60+ years (yeah, I know in the comics the initial line-up is a bit different), and they all manage to contribute to their respective challenges, much in the same way as it happens in tabletop games.
I don't really see how its different than Fighter (I hit good with sword) vs Wizard (I instantly conjure a cataclysm from nothing) - I just don't see how the Exemplar is any better or more fantastical than any of the other 1000 fantastical things other classes can already do.
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I mean he is definitely the same power level as the Hulk.I think it's fine. Thor pals around with a Fighter, a Rogue, an Inventor, a Ranger, and a Barbarian just fine, after all.Are you trying to say that Thor is on the same power level as hawk eye and black widow?
And arguably less powerful than Dr. Strange and the Scarlet Witch.
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This seems like a good place to put something that upset me from the start of reading the class.
I love the class, the idea, the abilities.
I very very sincerely hope we will be able to play it in PFS.
But the introduction text, the very first thing you read when getting at the class, is a definite NO.
Before the playtest began, before the classes were known, I fought vehemently to convince posters and readers on the threads that the Demigod/Hero-god class would be OK. That it would NOT suffer from the main character / better than you syndrom.
And the whole class actually supports this pretty well.
EXCEPT the introduction text.
Please dial down the "future deity" speech a lot.
And let us play this great class in PFS too.
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I think it's fine. Thor pals around with a Fighter, a Rogue, an Inventor, a Ranger, and a Barbarian just fine, after all.Are you trying to say that Thor is on the same power level as hawk eye and black widow?
Yep. It is whatever the writers want him to be at. It goes up and down all the time.
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This seems like a good place to put something that upset me from the start of reading the class.
I love the class, the idea, the abilities.
I very very sincerely hope we will be able to play it in PFS.
But the introduction text, the very first thing you read when getting at the class, is a definite NO.
Before the playtest began, before the classes were known, I fought vehemently to convince posters and readers on the threads that the Demigod/Hero-god class would be OK. That it would NOT suffer from the main character / better than you syndrom.
And the whole class actually supports this pretty well.
EXCEPT the introduction text.
Please dial down the "future deity" speech a lot.
And let us play this great class in PFS too.
I can see it as something you could get as an AP boon, or purchase with Achievement points.
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I actually like it for the same reason you hate it. It's rare, we have a background literally called chosen one so why not a Rare class that just straight up says 'yeah Imma be a god one day'This seems like a good place to put something that upset me from the start of reading the class.
I love the class, the idea, the abilities.
I very very sincerely hope we will be able to play it in PFS.
But the introduction text, the very first thing you read when getting at the class, is a definite NO.
Before the playtest began, before the classes were known, I fought vehemently to convince posters and readers on the threads that the Demigod/Hero-god class would be OK. That it would NOT suffer from the main character / better than you syndrom.
And the whole class actually supports this pretty well.
EXCEPT the introduction text.
Please dial down the "future deity" speech a lot.
And let us play this great class in PFS too.
I do not hate the class at all.
It's the way of presenting things like "your name will be carved in history forever, immortalized in the memory of gods and mortals alike." when you can die like any other mortal in a dark alleyway. Well, maybe your name can become an immortal cautionary tale.
The Exemplar has the potential to become a deity. It does not mean they are destined to be one. Nor that they are somehow above the other PCs.
But the way the class is presented right now feeds into the fears of those who see it as problematic.
I can totally see GMs banning it just after reading the introduction without even checking what it actually does.
I think the game will be richer with this class and its theme. I also believe we can get it without the unnecessary baggage of becoming the "one and only main character" class.
Nothing prevents an Exemplar from being played that way of course. But it should not be seen as unavoidable if you allow the class.
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I can see it as something you could get as an AP boon, or purchase with Achievement points.This seems like a good place to put something that upset me from the start of reading the class.
I love the class, the idea, the abilities.
I very very sincerely hope we will be able to play it in PFS.
But the introduction text, the very first thing you read when getting at the class, is a definite NO.
Before the playtest began, before the classes were known, I fought vehemently to convince posters and readers on the threads that the Demigod/Hero-god class would be OK. That it would NOT suffer from the main character / better than you syndrom.
And the whole class actually supports this pretty well.
EXCEPT the introduction text.
Please dial down the "future deity" speech a lot.
And let us play this great class in PFS too.
Me, I want it playable just like any other class.