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So... it's me again. I'm doing the thing again. This time for Technomancers.
I'm seeing some thoughts that it would be good to have tech and magic be better integrated in Starfinder. I see a post (that no one seems to be arguing) that suggests that the old-style Technomancer is mostly a mage walking around in tech-themed clothing. Stuff like that. That seems like a sadness, because it seems like the Technomancer ought to be the poster child for tech/magic integration. Like, we ought to cram so much tech/magic integration in the Technomancer that other folks later can grab some easily just by poaching from them. So... given that the Technomancer is pretty much the same place the Mechanic is in the development cycle (and is likely to come out in the same book) let's try tossing out and poking at some ideas in the attempt to be helpful to the devs.
First, as a digression, I think there's also a really cool niche for a Technoshaman. Someone who communes with and calls up spirits of technology (Starfinder does have spirits of technology, right?) and uses that to do things like getting a friendly spirit to inhabit his buddy's multilaser to make ti work a bit better, or calls up a network spirit to do some hacking on his behalf (or to have the ghost int eh machine run defense against the hacking attempts of others). I think this is a really cool concept, and I think it would be great to have it in SF2 eventually, and I think we're not really ready to talk about it yet, and it's not what the technomancer is.
So... technomancer. Here's what I see.
- Various kinds of magically boosted hacking. Debuff, disable, or take control of technological devices from a distance, in combat time. Cause the guns in your opponent's hands to misfire in a variety of amusign ways... and so on. Actually, a "misfire" line of spells could be interesting. Cause a penalty to hit on their next shot, and then if they miss or crit-miss it triggers other interesting effects.
- Spells that inherently involve using technological devices. Like, you pour magic into a grenade, you throw, and when it hits you get the grenade's effect stacking on the spell effect. Have a fireball inside of a bullet so that it goes off wherever the bullet lands. Some of this might overlap the magus but that doesn't make it incorrect. Transportation spells that require that you be in a vehicle... and so forth.
- The ability to temporarily create technological items. Like, a spell that's literally just "every time you sustain this spell, you get a free grenade, popped into an empty hand (or dropped on the ground at your feet, primed to blow at the end of your turn)"
Actually... this is one of the concerns I have with SF2 magic. The four traditions fit PF2. They fit it really well. They really don't fit SF2. In a SF2 that was not beholden to PF2, letting the technomancer have their own line of tech-themed spells would be the obvious way to differentiate them. "What makes me a technomancer? Well, every single one of my spells is tech-themed." It's simple, ti's easy, it works, and it makes sense. You'd probably fit a few more class features in there too, because there is space in the budget, but you wouldn't need to. If the Technomancer needs to have a PF2 tradition, though... well, you could load one of those traditions down with tech spells, but that means that any pick-a-list out there could pick that list and wind up just as tech-focused. It also means that if you do a PF2 crossover, then suddenly the technomancer has a whole bunch of non-tech spells, and one (but only one) of the PF2 traditions does as well. If you don't make the spells do the heavy lifting on theme, then you need to have the class features do it all, and it's still a bit weird because, again, the technomancer is throwing around a bunch of spells that have nothing to do with tech.
So yeah. That's a serious concern. It feels like it's wrong for SF2, and it feels like it's one that's going to persist because it makes it more compatible than PF2, which also feels wrong.
...but lets say that this is non-negotiable, for whatever reason. Time to suck it up and deal. Okay. In that case, the Technomancer is going to need to get most of its theming from somewhere other than its spell list. Given that, I think you need to pare the spell slots back. I wouldn't say go full wave caster. That's too far, and I'm not suggesting and martial to replace it. I'm suggesting they trim back to a setup like the Psychic where you only get two slots per spell rank, and give the rest of the class budget in interesting magical powers, which you can theme strongly.
Various features that might be interesting...?
- The ability to somehow sense nearby tech, tag it, possibly detect things from that location, and then, critically, use that as the target point for a spell regardless of LOS or LOE. In general, I think I like the idea of a character who can tag a limited number of tech objects (held by allies, enemies, or just nearby) and then be able to act through those objects.
Yeah... that's me hitting the wall. Anyone else?
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Spitballing here, but:
I want the Technomancer to be the equivalent of the Druid of technology. They should be considered kinda weird compared to most everyone, and be a little *too* into the mysticism of technology, with a strong bent toward *software* specifically. I think Mechanic can handle the hardware side of things quite well, and so giving narrative control of software to Technomancers could be a good way to give the two classes some space.
I'd like Technomancers to be able to influence, duplicate, or generate AI helpers that can do things as diverse as doing research automatically in the background to providing useful combat HUD info or targeting assistance.
I'd like Technomancers to be able to champion Matrix style modes of play, including things like allowing the party to physically enter artificial environments, computer systems, or data pads (if only to hide for a bit from real world threats).
I feel like Technomancers should be able to blur the line between virtual reality and reality, perhaps allowing AI helpers or software threats to take physical form to assist in combat or skill challenges, or create illusory effects.
I think Technomancers should be able to act as essentially a living matrix node, allowing them to project an aura of technological effects even in the wilderness.
Overcoming security systems and cameras should be second nature to Technomancers.
I don't think Technomancers necessarily need to be able to throw fireballs (though I think they should have a high damage potential). So I would like to put forth, looking at the sheer number and variety of effects the Kineticist can gain access to, that the Technomancer should be something more akin to a kineticist who channels only technological effects.
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I think you need to start from the perspective of what kind of chassis you want the class to have and what the power budget and design space of the other classes with that chassis allows.
I assume we're talking a full 10th level caster. If that's so, we know what you're going to get: those spells are the big part of your class, with the number of slots (2, 3, or 4) determining how much is left for focus spells (and whether they're bad like the wizard or sometimes good like the other classes), special extra powerful cantrips like the bard/witch/psychic, or other different class features like the (post-remaster) witch familiar.
The only spells you can give the technomancer that are specially about technology in a way that relates to his class, rather than what normal magic can do, need to be focus spells or special cantrips. Then depending on how strong those are you might have enough left to have something like a spell cache device/implant that works like a witch familiar or some other boost.
Some of these concepts above can be handled just by selecting some focus spells and maybe a custom cantrip. Then you also have some full spell slots for big blasts, utility, etc.
Spitballing ideas:
Have a tech-based focus spell available for every feat level (or more reasonably, five spread out across the ten even levels), allowing building out a toolkit of special tech interactions without making that the only way to build the class.
Technomancer feels like they should be a master of connectivity. Using magic to guarantee access in places without it, and privacy in places that already have access.
The ability to turn a comm into effectively a scroll. Delayed casting from a comm or computer would be nice, buuut that seems like the sort of thing that winds up breaking the action economy. Maybe use a device as the origin point of a spell, so long as you have line of effect to the device?
Wards. Maybe it's a bias from reading The Laundry Files, but devices iterating rapidly over ritual incantations at the cost of battery life feels very Technomancer.
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The Technomancer (and all of the SF spellcasting classes) should take a page from the Psychic's book. IE, the spells should be a smaller part of their class budget than other spellcasting classes, and they should have special abilities to make up the difference. In this case, they should have cantrips and focus abilities that interact with tech.
I really like the software focus idea. Make technomancers the programmer-mage/hacker-mage/script-mage. We already have spellchips. Let the technomancer really double down on that.
Like... a (For Loop) focus spell that lets you pick a cantrip that you know and a target and just casts that cantrip on that target every round for a number of rounds equal to the spell rank. You set up the program, you let it run, and then you focus on doing other things.
Something just occurred to me: cantrips play a big part of a caster's toolkit in pathfinder, but in Starfinder I think the assumption is that most characters are going to have a gun. And if a Technomancer has access to a gun, and perhaps even has ways to magically fill up her gun's battery, does she really need cantrips?
And if a caster doesn't have cantrips, would that leave enough room in the budget for at least an alchemist/warpriest's weapon proficiencies?
I keep having to remind myself that everything is on the table, and we haven't even gotten the most fleeting glance at how playtest casters might look. So...just putting it out there. A full caster that doesn't natively get the cantrip class ability, but instead gets focus cantrips only (like one that fills up a battery pack) and is a little bit more capable with weapons than a pathfinder caster, maybe even better than a pathfinder support caster (what I call the alchemist/warpriest chassis).
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The biggest thing I try to keep in mind is that we don't know what the spell lists for Starfinder are going to look like. Yes, the traditions as published in Pathfinder seem like an odd fit. If the technomancer becomes the "arcane" spellcaster of Starfinder and you allow your players to use Pathfinder spells, you're going to have a lot of spells that aren't thematic.
But we don't know what an 'arcane Starfinder spell' looks like yet. Same for the other traditions really. We know we aren't going to see as much page space given to the classic pathfinder spells being reprinted, because those already exist. Which means that, from the few examples we've heard, the spells are getting a very futuristice/space/sci-fi redressing. And if that's the case, for all we know, the arcane spell list might look VERY tech-focused.
Excellent point.
I also look at the witchwarper; out of the 4 essences, material and life seem to fit the classes themes the best (since it’s concentrations are on alternate versions of the material plane and the living creature on it), but primal as a whole feels like a mismatch. But if sf core concentrates on adding lots of time and multiverse shenanigan spells, primal might have a whole different feel to it.
And yes, that means time druids would be a thing. I’m not against it. Chronomancy is not limited to a single tradition.
The rarity system might also be a factor; zero reason why particular spells might not become uncommon or rare on a class by class basis. There could be a base pool of common arcane spells, and then a chunk of rare spells that a technomancer has common access to.
And if that's the case, for all we know, the arcane spell list might look VERY tech-focused.
And I don't think it necessarily should! Futurized, sure, but I don't think the Arcane list should feel heavy enough into technology to fully satisfy a Technomancer's spell diet.
At the very least, if made a spellcaster, Technomancer should err toward Psychic or Druid or even Magus with the weight their class features have versus their spells. There's too much cool thematic space for tech-bending that could mechanically fall well outside of spell slots.
And if that's the case, for all we know, the arcane spell list might look VERY tech-focused.And I don't think it necessarily should! Futurized, sure, but I don't think the Arcane list should feel heavy enough into technology to fully satisfy a Technomancer's spell diet.
At the very least, if made a spellcaster, Technomancer should err toward Psychic or Druid or even Magus with the weight their class features have versus their spells. There's too much cool thematic space for tech-bending that could mechanically fall well outside of spell slots.
Honestly I do agree with this. I do think Technomancer has enough cool theming to want to shift budget away from spell slots and into the digital and tech-bending spheres. Focus spells account for some of that, but psychic is a great example of being able to trade out a bit of the more general tradition-based budget for tighter focus. It works.
I also think there's some merit to the idea up-thread a bit of them favoring guns over cantrips. That's a neat idea to lean into, where they use equipment instead of magic as their filler and save their spells for the bigger moments/needs.
Huh. Crazy thought... is there any particular reason why any casters in Starfinder would need cantrips? I mean, "casters with guns" is pretty much already baked into the Starfinder aesthetic. Couldn't they just... keep it?
...or, alternately, if you need their default resourceless attack to be two-action for balance purposes, have the default cantrips be "I shoot them with my gun and also...."
I think it's mostly scaling in the budget. Weapons and spells scale separately so there's no inherent balance issue to letting a spellcaster's resource-free attack be a single action strike. Other than proficiency.
With full spellcasters, their proficiency budget generally leans into Legendary scaling for their spells and DCs, and then expert for their equipment. Which is scaling that makes sense to me for the mystic, or the witchwarper in which case you'd be directly hurting them by removing access to cantrips.
So basically there's a tradeoff, and I don't think cantrip removal alone is enough to say "and now the spellcasters also get master proficiency with guns like a martial."
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*need* cantrips and *want* cantrips are two different things! I absolutely want to be able to play a caster who eschews guns in SF2
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Cantrips do a lot more than substitute for weapons on a class lacking proficiency. There's defensive, buffing, detecting, and utility cantrips as well. Rage of Elements expanded them a lot and I imagine PF2 core remaster is going to keep some of the Secrets of Magic expansion.
One nice thing about save cantrips is that they combine well with a shortbow or a pistol shot. I wouldn't be surprised to see a cantrip that works directly with a gun - hit with cantrip, have extra effect if immediately shot afterwards before the turn ends. I can easily imagine a static shock/electricity damage effect that causes more damage or a further debuff if you hit them with the same or different elemental damage type with a follow up shot.
It's also weird to say you want to take cantrips away to justify giving a class more martial proficiencies like the Magus - the Magus depends very heavily on its cantrips! They gave up the majority of their slot spells to get those proficiencies and class features.
Also, anyone else feel that Spell Cache could be replicated by stealing the magus' Studious Spells feature?
Anyone else feel that Spell Cache should be sent to retire on a farm for a nice family to take care of him?
I think it's mostly scaling in the budget. Weapons and spells scale separately so there's no inherent balance issue to letting a spellcaster's resource-free attack be a single action strike. Other than proficiency.
With full spellcasters, their proficiency budget generally leans into Legendary scaling for their spells and DCs, and then expert for their equipment. Which is scaling that makes sense to me for the mystic, or the witchwarper in which case you'd be directly hurting them by removing access to cantrips.
So basically there's a tradeoff, and I don't think cantrip removal alone is enough to say "and now the spellcasters also get master proficiency with guns like a martial."
The reason it might be an issue is that martials and casters have two different action economies. Martials are limited by MAP. Casters have to really care about where their two-action slot goes. If you have a caster with "gun" as a backup weapon, then they're automatically plugges into the "Two-action spell, one-action shot" thing, and they also have efficient ways to use any number of actions in the turn. Now, some classes do get this in PF2 - Magus, Kineticist, Inventor, and Summoner being most obvious. It's not all classes, though, and the ones that do get it pay for it. Some caster classes in Starfinder might not want to pay for it.
I agree that losing cantrips isn't enough to give you master in weapons by itself... but I also don't think I personally need to worry about the details on that one. The Paizo devs are way better at finicky balance tweaking than I am. They don't need me on that stuff.
The reason it might be an issue is that martials and casters have two different action economies. Martials are limited by MAP. Casters have to really care about where their two-action slot goes. If you have a caster with "gun" as a backup weapon, then they're automatically plugges into the "Two-action spell, one-action shot" thing, and they also have efficient ways to use any number of actions in the turn. Now, some classes do get this in PF2 - Magus, Kineticist, Inventor, and Summoner being most obvious. It's not all classes, though, and the ones that do get it pay for it. Some caster classes in Starfinder might not want to pay for it.
They'll just have to suffer in the cellar with the Bard.
You know this whole time I've been getting the spell cache feature confused with the cache capacitor. That's the one I'm a fan of. I like the idea of having helpful spells running on a loop that you can swap on the daily.
The ability to have Unseen Servant (or however it gets renamed) running all the time is something I really missed in PF2, and would be happy to see return for Technomancer.
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Maybe they could offer a choice of technomantic metamagics? Like, it feels like "for loop" (cast the same instant spell every round for X rounds), "while loop" (keep the same duration-based spell running all day), and "if statement" (effectively, Contingency) could all be interesting and powerful abilities to stack on that you *could* keep from being overpowered, if you could limit them properly. On the other hand, having access to *all* of them might be a bit much.
I love the idea of flavouring metamagic as programming concepts. That's great
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The Technomancer is obviously arcane and nothing else.
This may not necessarily have a place in Starfinder, but I’d be interested in a subsystem akin to functions in Supergiant’s Transistor: functions there can be used as actives, passives, or upgrades to other functions, which I think made for a really neat and tech-y customization system: a function like Breach(), for instance, could fire a long-ranged projectile, increase the range of your other functions, or give you more actions to plan on your turn.
Applied to a hypothetical Technomancer, let’s suppose you have special functions to select, including a similar hypothetical Breach() that you could commit to your build in various ways: one option could be to have it as focus spell that fires a piercing projectile, another could be to have it as either a spellshape action or even a passive spell range increase, and another could be to commit it to a tech weapon to give it reach or a bigger range increment. You wouldn’t be able to do more than one of those at a time (though maybe that could change with a feat), but you’d get to pick several functions, so you’d have a wide range of customisation over your spells and items.
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What I want the technomancer to be primarily is the "gun wizard". That is to say a spellcaster who's whole deal is conjuring artillery, explosive, guns etc. If it has cantrips, they should be firing a gun. Leveled spells should do things like make turrets and mortars. Instead of fireballs you conjure grandes. Create barriers of steel, and summon mechs/robots. For class abilities I wanna see the ability to cast spells out of devices and computers. Such as tentacles being summoned out of computer monitors to grab dudes, and conceal your location by having spells originate from a camera or ATM. I would like to see the spellbook be a computer, and feats that allow you to use that computer to enhance, edit or even run spells like a program, aka sustaining spells and the like. I want to see spell tinkering where the grenade spell can be tinkered with to do things like give it shrapnel, flash freeze people etc. Aka spell shaping or old 3.x style metamagic. I also think it would be cool to use batteries to "recharge"/recast spells
I am also quite willing to give up spell slots to get more of these features, and maybe use them more often or more frequently. Psychic spellcasting is fine but not ideal, but a "super wave casting" might be a good compromise. Basically 3 or 4 slots of the top 3-4 spell levels with feats or features that add limited lower slots, but you have the ability to customize these fewer spells and recharge them etc
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I like the idea someone said of the Tech Druid. Several species, and even an entire planet is an entirely robotic ecosystem.
My question is going to be what will the Technomancer's gimmick? The connection with the Mystic, the Suppression with the Soldier.
As for the cantrip vs. Gun idea, i'm firmly on the side of: Both. Damaging cantirps have fallen out of vogue in favor of a good blaster, but support cantrips are varied and popular. And for the technomancer, maybe a feat to let them use their spell casting proficiency for their weapons
with the 3 action system you can cast a cantrip and make a martial attack(especially ranged) very easily. that's pretty much my go to strat for my bard after i get my lingering courage started, and its very effective if i dont think i need to spend a slot slot or something(and in that case i can still attack afterwards most of the time). but they will never get spell casting prof for weapons. at best they might get a way to use int for attack rolls... but one class has that and its pretty much their biggest mechanic, while technomancer will likely be much more focused on casting spells.
What I meant is the cantrips should be a gun, not either or, nor one then the other, but both at once. The cantrips either conjure a gun, fire from a gun. Whatever. Just gimme the gun wizard
What I meant is the cantrips should be a gun, not either or, nor one then the other, but both at once. The cantrips either conjure a gun, fire from a gun. Whatever. Just gimme the gun wizard
I think "Gun wizard" is a fine idea for a class, and that Starfinder would be a better place for having one.
I don't think it's the Technomancer, though. It feels more like a gish class, while the Technomancer really needs to be full caster.
Por qué no los dos? If Pathfinder's cleric can accommodate a gish framework, hopefully that means the technomancer could be a proper full caster and still have room for a gun wizard gish build.
So more like a psychic?
I'm a bit confused; psychics aren't gishes in Pathfinder and don't really work well as gishes to my understanding, as they lack the defenses and weapon proficiency for that kind of playstyle. The cleric, by contrast, has the Warpriest doctrine, which bolts gish proficiencies onto a full caster framework. Basically, if one were to implement doctrine-style subclasses for the technomancer, you could have one gish doctrine for your gun wizard, and another for your not-so-gish technomancer, and both would be able to coexist on a full caster.
The warpriest is a crude hack that was necessary to shoehorn a cherished traditional playstyle in early when they didn't have the class space to do it right. We shouldn't be seeking to emulate it.
On the flip side, "Of course casters use firearms" is kind of baked into Starfinder in general... partially as a result of the fact that in SF1, all casters had gish spellslot progression. So....
Well, I'm tempted, a little. Would it be possible... maybe a class archetype? (cringes)
Class Archetypes in PF1 have pretty much all been nothingburgers or strict downgrades. It's been kind of brutal. Still. Maybe it can be better this time? It might be appropriate to have some sort of class archetype that would eat some chunk of your casting ability (one spell slot per spell rank, maybe?) and give you back better proficiencies with firearms and some nifty ways to do magic things with guns.
I don't think it really works with a 4-slot mystic. (Why does Mystic need 4 slots?) If Mystic is 3-slot, though (and would thus be reduced to 2 by the archetype), I could see it working out pretty well.
Well, I'm tempted, a little. Would it be possible... maybe a class archetype? (cringes)
Class Archetypes in PF1 have pretty much all been nothingburgers or strict downgrades. It's been kind of brutal. Still. Maybe it can be better this time? It might be appropriate to have some sort of class archetype that would eat some chunk of your casting ability (one spell slot per spell rank, maybe?) and give you back better proficiencies with firearms and some nifty ways to do magic things with guns.
I don't think it really works with a 4-slot mystic. (Why does Mystic need 4 slots?) If Mystic is 3-slot, though (and would thus be reduced to 2 by the archetype), I could see it working out pretty well.
If it's of any use, I came up with a homebrewed catch-all gish archetype for PF2e casters that would turn them into wave casters with gish proficiencies. I'll revise it after the remaster, ideally with the intent of making it generic enough that it would map cleanly onto any future caster (including SF2e casters) without needing specific adjustments. In the meantime, that framework could probably be made to fit classes like the mystic or, when they come out, the technomancer, without too much trouble.
I think it would be really cool if Technomancer introduce fifth tradition called something like "techo" which isn't fully magic, but can substitute as one, and have spell related to technology. So it would be more utility based than combat. And since it isn't fully magic, it doesn't used the 4 essence of magic. It would probably have a lot of spell related to enchantment, curse, and time manipulation.
This would also the magical tradition of Nanocyte, and maybe evolutionist.
Adding on a new magic tradition for techno-wizards does sound like a real possibility.
And if "Techno" magic have a lot of time manipulation, it would also be the tradition of both Precog, and Witchwarpper.
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And if "Techno" magic have a lot of time manipulation, it would also be the tradition of both Precog, and Witchwarpper.
Best available information is that Precog is being folded into witchwarper in this edition.
I doubt they're going to make a new tradition.
One thing they might do, though, is to make a "tech" tag. Like, "this spell inherently interacts with technology, and does not function if there isn't an appropriate bit of technology to interact with" is a tag that's potentially useful for reasons other than just "so maybe we should let technomancers use it".
Might be interesting to have technomancers have split access to both tech spells and whatever their base tradition is. Like, some of your spell slots are for tradition spells, the others are for tech spells, and the spells that are both can get used in either.
And if "Techno" magic have a lot of time manipulation, it would also be the tradition of both Precog, and Witchwarpper.Best available information is that Precog is being folded into witchwarper in this edition.
I doubt they're going to make a new tradition
They've added new tradition before, there is no saying that in the far future new tradition might have been discover and that would explain why the tradition of magic is back in used.