So, what's the good stuff?

[Staffan Johansson]

I'm thinking about running another AP, but before settling on one I figured I should check in with the hivemind here about what's good and what isn't. As a reference about previous experiences with PF2 APs and preferences:

1. I've been a player in Age of Ashes up through book 3 and I have enjoyed that, though part is probably because the GM's pretty good at filling things out. I've recognized that some things have been overtuned but we've bumbled through.

2. I've run Extinction Curse book 1 and 2, and did not particularly like it. My two main complaints are (a) there's too much Xulgath stuff and not enough circus stuff, and (b) there are too many dungeons, particularly ones on a timer.

3. I've been a player in Agents of Edgewatch book 1, and that didn't work out well at all. Much overtuned, the end dungeon was way too big, and the adventure (much like Extinction Curse) seemed too afraid to lean into its theme.

4. I have perused Fists of the Ruby Phoenix, but was turned off when I realized that the first installment expects the PCs to gain 4 levels in 4 days. That's a really grueling pace, and one that will leave casters completely exhausted and feeling useless much of the time.

5. I like my dungeons small, like 4-5 encounters. A dungeon that's supposed to get you through a whole level's worth of XP is far too big, and should probably be split into 2-3 stages (even if they might be part of the same physical structure). As a corollary, you generally shouldn't be getting one level in one day even outside of dungeons.

6. Ideally, there should be a mix of dungeon and non-dungeon content. As an example of how not to do it, take Legacy of the Lost God:

Spoiler:

Because of Reasons, the party needs to get into an abandoned temple of Aroden. They first need to locate it and then gain access to it. This takes up about three pages of the adventure, and gives 110 XP. The actual xulgath-infested temple then takes up the next 22 pages, and is supposed to give enough XP to go from early level 6 to level 8. After that, the adventure segues into dealing with its main villain, which is another full-level dungeon (disguised as a carnival/circus, but it's a dungeon – particularly the linear six-room gauntlet before you get to the villain) – this time, one you kind of have to deal with in one go.
It would have been much better to spend maybe half a level bumbling around town looking for the temple, perhaps with some side tracks, and then spend another half level in the actual temple. Then do the same thing again with the actual villain: investigate her circus for about half a level to figure out where she's gone, and then another half level on the actual pursuit.

7. If the adventure has a theme, lean into it. If I'm playing the Circus AP, I want lots of circus stuff. I don't need to also deal with the repercussions of nonsense some god did a couple of millennia ago and villains wanting revenge for it. Or if what seems to be a theme isn't, make that abundantly clear. For example, the 1e Serpent's Skull AP tells the players to make PCs that are, for whatever reason, on a ship heading from the Inner Sea region to Sargava, but spells out that this is a jungle exploration AP, not a seafaring AP.

8. It's good if there are plenty of challenges in the adventure where fighting is at best plan B or C, and which can more easily be solved by figuring out non-violent ways of dealing with them.

So, are there any APs out yet that would suit me? Strength of Thousands looks promising, but are there any others along the same lines?

[PossibleCabbage]

I think you would enjoy both Strength of Thousands and Blood Lords (which is less a "be evil" AP than you would expect- you're just cogs in an evil machine; the main theme in the AP is "making the best of it.")

[Perpdepog]

I'll second both of those. I have personal experience running Strength of Thousands, and can confirm it's great. Lots of little dungeons and small tasks to do with plenty of time for doing magical school stuff in between, and the timescale means you can plop in as much downtime as you want, at least in the early books.

[keftiu]

Strength of Thousands commits hard to non-violent solutions as a core theme, even as the plot takes you on a bit of a meandering path through the varied situations Magaambyans have to deal with. I think it's excellent.

Quest for the Frozen Flame is solid, with caveats that there's some plot rewriting needed (to my understanding?) and that the AP really, really wants to be using the ABP rules without ever saying so out loud. If you like the Ice Age vibes and hexcrawling, I'm not sure you'll find anything better outside of swapping systems to Primal Quest.

I would personally advise skipping Outlaws of Alkenstar. It's bumpy enough that it got my friend running it to give up on Pathfinder! Wildly inconsistent tone and a whole lot of railroading really let this one down, while it's reluctant to commit to its setting (i.e. banning mages in the Mana Wastes). The coolest thing in it is hiding in the Continuing The Campaign Section.

[The Raven Black]

I don't know why, but Paizo' second APs (Second Darkness and Extinction Curse) both suffer from this wild mismanagement of expectations (expect one theme of AP and get a COMPLETELY different one).

Interestingly, they have a few other similarities too.

TBH I would have thought one such AP would have been enough to learn this lesson.

[The Raven Black]

To the OP, reading your post made me think of Strength of Thousands too, but I have neither played nor read it.

[Paul Watson]

The Raven Black wrote:

I don't know why, but Paizo' second APs (Second Darkness and Extinction Curse) both suffer from this wild mismanagement of expectations (expect one theme of AP and get a COMPLETELY different one).

Interestingly, they have a few other similarities too.

TBH I would have thought one such AP would have been enough to learn this lesson.

Pouint of Pedantry: Second Darkness was the third AP. Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne preceded it.

[The Raven Black]

Paul Watson wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

I don't know why, but Paizo' second APs (Second Darkness and Extinction Curse) both suffer from this wild mismanagement of expectations (expect one theme of AP and get a COMPLETELY different one).

Interestingly, they have a few other similarities too.

TBH I would have thought one such AP would have been enough to learn this lesson.

Pouint of Pedantry: Second Darkness was the third AP. Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne preceded it.

My very bad. I was sure it was the second (and CoCT the third), likely because of association with the AP's title.

[Dragonchess Player]

The Raven Black wrote:

Paul Watson wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

I don't know why, but Paizo' second APs (Second Darkness and Extinction Curse) both suffer from this wild mismanagement of expectations (expect one theme of AP and get a COMPLETELY different one).

Interestingly, they have a few other similarities too.

TBH I would have thought one such AP would have been enough to learn this lesson.

Pouint of Pedantry: Second Darkness was the third AP. Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne preceded it.

My very bad. I was sure it was the second (and CoCT the third), likely because of association with the AP's title.

Another point against the "second APs have issues" hypothesis: The second AP for PF1 was Kingmaker; the first was Council of Thieves (which did have the entire mismanagement of expectations with that speech at the beginning).

[Dusan Frolkovic]

If we go by experience with adventure paths, Second Darkness was the 6th 3e Paizo AP (3rd on Golarion), so I really would not try and see a pattern here :D
Not enough data points.

To the main topic, I will add my vote to Strength of a Thousands.
Most AP's have at least 1 big dungeon somewhere, this one is at least on the lower end of the scale.

[Mammoth Daddy]

If you don’t like dungeons or prefer small dungeons I then would suggest Quest for the Frozen Flame.
Never played it but read through the first book and know the gist of the story and arc. It’s mostly about survival, and trying to stay ahead of a looming threat until your able to take care of said threat.

[Charlie Brooks]

It's not done yet, but so far I think Sky King's Tomb fits the bill nicely. It's got a pretty strong theme...

Spoilers about that theme:

Beyond just "dwarf/Darklands stuff," it leans heavily on the theme of making amends for sins of the past, and even highlights some NPCs who lean into that theme especially hard.

At least early on, it also has a lot of options to let PCs showcase unique skills, with combat possible but not always necessary.

One would think that being in the Darklands means that it's all dungeons, but it actually has a good amount of urban adventure in it.

The only thing that I would point out in terms of prep for it is that the Gamemastery Guide is basically essential for the adventure path, as it makes a lot of use of the subsystems in that book.

[Steel_Wind]

I think the stuff that belongs "top-shelf" is back in PF1's Adv Paths.

This is not an edition war post: I prefer the rules of PF2.

But the plots, the development work, and perhaps most of all, the quality of the freelance writers with PF1's APs, especially chronologically, the first two-thirds of them, are better than anything we have received in PF2.

It takes a lot of time to convert PF1 APs to PF2 if you are being meticulous about it -- but if you are looking for the best Paizo adventure paths? That's where you will find them.

[Arcaian]

Steel_Wind wrote:

I think the stuff that belongs "top-shelf" is back in PF1's Adv Paths.

This is not an edition war post: I prefer the rules of PF2.

But the plots, the development work, and perhaps most of all, the quality of the freelance writers with PF1's APs, especially chronologically, the first two-thirds of them, are better than anything we have received in PF2.

It takes a lot of time to convert PF1 APs to PF2 if you are being meticulous about it -- but if you are looking for the best Paizo adventure paths? That's where you will find them.

This is all fundamentally subjective, but I'm truly surprised to hear you say the first 2/3rds of PF1's APs here. The APs for Strange Aeons through Tyrant's Grasp were generally better received than many of the early PF1 APs. If we're including the 3.5 APs that people sometimes mean when talking about PF1 APs, we'd be stopping at Giantslayer, excluding Hell's Rebels and Vengeance. Aside from the obvious issues with the Evil campaign, all of the excluded APs tend to vary between solid to excellent reviews.

All that said, I do think many of the PF2 APs deserve to be on the top-shelf. I've not read all of the APs Paizo has put out, but about half of them - and I'd put most of the APs after Agents of Edgewatch at least in the above-average category. I do think the first three were a bit of a tough transition into PF2 :)

[willfromamerica]

The only 2e adventure paths I’d give a hard “not recommended” to are Extinction Curse, Agents of Edgewatch, and (sadly) Blood Lords. The rest of them through Sky King’s Tomb I’d consider good to great.

[Steel_Wind]

willfromamerica wrote:

The only 2e adventure paths I’d give a hard “not recommended” to are Extinction Curse, Agents of Edgewatch, and (sadly) Blood Lords. The rest of them through Sky King’s Tomb I’d consider good to great.

My list is a little longer than that, but this isn't about "what's the worst" -- it's about "what's the best" - a different question.

As for Agents of Edgewatch, that one, sadly, has a lot to recommend it and there is the basis for an excellent Absalom campaign. All the key ingredients are there...

And then they serve it up to GMs and players on a garbage can lid.

The problem with AoE is the developer's choice to have the PCs acquire treasure by looting the bad (and not so bad) guys - the so called privateer model -- fundamentally undermined the entire premise of the campaign. The PCs, officers of the law, are required to fund their patrol operations by stealing from those they arrest.

It's a plain conflict of interest. So BY DESIGN the players find themselves role-playing bad cops. No cop under a treasure model like that is lawful -- nor good, in my view. It's a case where the treasure model basically forces the PCs to play dirty cops who are all in the Neutral, Neutral (Evil), Chaotic Neutral, and and even Chaotic Evil parts of the alignment spectrum. And this happens BY DESIGN, no less.

I played AoE, Vol 1 and this aspect of things was such a distraction to me that I couldn't wait for that volume to end. And we ended the campaign right afterwards.

As you might imagine, I have some strong views about that design, and some adjectives to attach to it which are both critical and unflattering.

Could we have changed the treasure model? Sure, absolutely. But changing something that is so plainly and obviously wrong in an AP's inherent design should not be necessary.

[Totally Not Gorbacz]

Steel_Wind wrote:

I think the stuff that belongs "top-shelf" is back in PF1's Adv Paths.

This is not an edition war post: I prefer the rules of PF2.

But the plots, the development work, and perhaps most of all, the quality of the freelance writers with PF1's APs, especially chronologically, the first two-thirds of them, are better than anything we have received in PF2.

It takes a lot of time to convert PF1 APs to PF2 if you are being meticulous about it -- but if you are looking for the best Paizo adventure paths? That's where you will find them.

*"Things were better back in my days" playing softly in the background*

[Lord Fyre]

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

Steel_Wind wrote:

I think the stuff that belongs "top-shelf" is back in PF1's Adv Paths.

This is not an edition war post: I prefer the rules of PF2.

But the plots, the development work, and perhaps most of all, the quality of the freelance writers with PF1's APs, especially chronologically, the first two-thirds of them, are better than anything we have received in PF2.

It takes a lot of time to convert PF1 APs to PF2 if you are being meticulous about it -- but if you are looking for the best Paizo adventure paths? That's where you will find them.

*"Things were better back in my days" playing softly in the background*

That doesn't mean that it isn't true. Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne, and Kingmaker came from this period, and all these are widely considered amazing.

Steel Wind should remember however, this period also gave us the disappointments of Second Darkness, Council of Thieves, and Serpent's Skull. So, perhaps, he should clarify what he means by "better."

[Totally Not Gorbacz]

Abomination Vaults and Strength of Thousands easily rank alongside RotRL and CotCT, and are just behind the best Paizo AP ever, Reign of Winter.

[Lord Fyre]

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

Abomination Vaults and Strength of Thousands easily rank alongside RotRL and CotCT, and are just behind the best Paizo AP ever, Reign of Winter.

I don't dispute that. I want Steel Wind to clarify.

(However, you're wrong about Reign of Winter. You are forced to help a very bad person defeat a slightly LESS bad person who is simply trying to save her own life. IMHO, that Sux.)

[Totally Not Gorbacz]

Lord Fyre wrote:

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

Abomination Vaults and Strength of Thousands easily rank alongside RotRL and CotCT, and are just behind the best Paizo AP ever, Reign of Winter.

I don't dispute that. I want Steel Wind to clarify.

(However, you're wrong about Reign of Winter. You are forced to help a very bad person defeat a slightly LESS bad person who is simply trying to save her own life. IMHO, that Sux.)

Life is all about choosing the lesser evil and the less wrong choice, the sooner you realise it, the easier it will be.

[Dancing Wind]

A friend of mine wears a t-shirt that says

Cthulhu For President

Why settle for the lesser evil

[Steve Geddes]

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

Abomination Vaults and Strength of Thousands easily rank alongside RotRL and CotCT, and are just behind the best Paizo AP ever, Reign of Winter.

Well you can’t be right all the time, I guess.

[The Raven Black]

RoW allowed us to have Anastasia make faces at Baba Yaga. Nuff said.

[Steel_Wind]

Top Shelf
Carrion Crown
Curse of the Crimson Throne
Hell's Rebels
Iron Gods
Kingmaker
Rise of the Runelords
Skull & Shackles
Wrath of the Righteous (Note: this is an assessment of the AP itself after decoupling it from the Mythic Rules, which are awful. If you want an AP to convert to PF2 from PF1? This AP, RotRL or CotCT are your podium choices – as long as you strip Mythic out of WotR.)

Middle Tier
Ironfang Invasion
Reign of Winter
Return of the Runelords
Ruins of Azlant
Shattered Star
Strange Aeons
Tyrant's Grasp
War for the Crown

Bottom Rung
Council of Thieves
Giantslayer
Hell's Vengeance
Jade Regent
Legacy of Fire
Mummy's Mask
Second Darkness
Serpent's Skull

I could get into a long explanation to defend and explain the above choices – (believe me I have extensive and well thought out reasons for this) – but if I post those reasons and start getting into the minutiae and criticism, all that will accomplish is piss off and potentially denigrate many ex-Paizo developers (and maybe a few who aren’t), alienate current freelancers and, in general, piss in the coffee cups of a lot of people who, understandably, would not appreciate that flavor with their java.

So, no, I’m not going to do that.

I will say this: the job of developer of an Adventure Path was invented by James Jacobs back in the days of Dungeon and was refined over a course of many years by him while at Paizo. He did the job the longest – and he did it best. Far and away the best - No, it’s not even close.

I also consider James Jacobs to be the best adventure writer for RPGs of all time. Yes, I mean that – all the way back to 1974. There are no asterisks or exceptions to that overall representation of quality or statement of approbation. No, it doesn’t mean that everything he has written is awesome – he’s had some duds in there, too – but overall, yes, he’s the best there is or ever was. That matters.

As for freelancer writers on whom so much depends – the best Freelance adventure authors have almost entirely sat out writing any adventures for PF2. There are a number of good reasons for this, but the end result is a perceptible decrease in the quality of the overall product. Yes, this is, in my view, plain and obvious.

Paizo has also shied away from the world-shaking AP themes of the past with the APs it has published in the PF2 era. There were, initially at least, good reasons for them to do this. But as time has worn on, that lack of “epic” in terms of flavor to the AP line has been conspicuously absent. Quality of themes have suffered as a result. Too much travelogue and niche filling – not enough “epic”.

And that’s before we talk about the complete disruption within Paizo’s staff in the AP line over the past 7 years or so – which has taken its toll on the product line.

Add all of that together: Developer, Theme, and Freelance writers – and that’s why you get a top Adventure Path List that would exclude every single one of the Adv Paths written for PF2 so far, imo.

That doesn’t mean they are all bad. Volume 1 of AV, for example, is a top-shelf product (but the magic of Vol 1 doesn’t persist into Vol 2, does it? Be fair.) Overall, the three volumes of AV still would slot in in the middle third, not within the top shelf of PF1’s offerings.

All of this is a problem for the current product line. I hope John Compton gets it right and that he is given adequate time to find his feet and make his mark on Pathfinder: Adventure Path – which is still the single greatest RPG adventure publication of all time.

[keftiu]

I think a conversation about Paizo’s best that doesn’t include Strength of Thousands isn’t a serious one, personally.

[Jonathan Morgantini]

Deleted posts and quotes that got harassing FAST. You are clear to disagree. But disagree respectfully.

[Lord Fyre]

keftiu wrote:

I think a conversation about Paizo’s best that doesn’t include Strength of Thousands isn’t a serious one, personally.

I cannot say. I have very little familiarity with it.

Steel_Wind wrote:

I will say this: the job of developer of an Adventure Path was invented by James Jacobs back in the days of Dungeon and was refined over a course of many years by him while at Paizo. He did the job the longest – and he did it best. Far and away the best - No, it’s not even close.

I also consider James Jacobs to be the best adventure writer for RPGs of all time. Yes, I mean that – all the way back to 1974. There are no asterisks or exceptions to that overall representation of quality or statement of approbation. No, it doesn’t mean that everything he has written is awesome – he’s had some duds in there, too – but overall, yes, he’s the best there is or ever was. That matters.

One of the paradoxes of the modern workplace is that if you are great at your job, you are often promoted out of doing it.

[Totally Not Gorbacz]

Sooo a propos of nothing, one addendum: among the "old school" PF1 playerbase, women are a horrifyingly small minority. It took Paizo 13, thirteen Adventure Paths, before a woman with an adventure credit was in it. Not because Paizo hates women, but because there weren't female adventure writers for D&D and its offshoots, and that was because there weren't enough women playing the game. And when these women started popping up, I distinctly remember grumblings of "forced inclusivity", concerns about "lower quality because women are picked due to gender, not skill," and musings about whether a 30yo woman can recognise the splendour of D&D history at such young age.

A few years ago, the admin of the biggest PF Facebook group, herself a woman, put up stats showing that women were less than 10% of the 35k+ group, and I can bet my horses that a solid chunk of them was from continental Europe, where TTRPGs spread across entirely different demographics than in US.

[Lord Fyre]

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

Sooo a propos of nothing, one addendum: among the "old school" PF1 playerbase, women are a horrifyingly small minority. It took Paizo 13, thirteen Adventure Paths, before a woman with an adventure credit was in it. Not because Paizo hates women, but because there weren't female adventure writers for D&D and its offshoots, and that was because there weren't enough women playing the game. And when these women started popping up, I distinctly remember grumblings of "forced inclusivity", concerns about "lower quality because women are picked due to gender, not skill," and musings about whether a 30yo woman can recognise the splendour of D&D history at such young age.

A few years ago, the admin of the biggest PF Facebook group, herself a woman, put up stats showing that women were less than 10% of the 35k+ group, and I can bet my horses that a solid chunk of them was from continental Europe, where TTRPGs spread across entirely different demographics than in US.

Since we've already forced the Moderators to intervene, perhaps it would be best to table this side discussion.

[keftiu]

Lord Fyre wrote:

keftiu wrote:

I think a conversation about Paizo’s best that doesn’t include Strength of Thousands isn’t a serious one, personally.

I cannot say. I have very little familiarity with it.

Then why say "you get a top Adventure Path List that would exclude every single one of the Adv Paths written for PF2 so far, imo" if you haven't... actually... read the works you're disparaging?

[Lord Fyre]

keftiu wrote:

Lord Fyre wrote:

keftiu wrote:

I think a conversation about Paizo’s best that doesn’t include Strength of Thousands isn’t a serious one, personally.

I cannot say. I have very little familiarity with it.

Then why say "you get a top Adventure Path List that would exclude every single one of the Adv Paths written for PF2 so far, imo" if you haven't... actually... read the works you're disparaging?

Am I disparaging PF 2E Adventure Paths? You may have confused me with someone else.

[keftiu]

You're quite right! I don't know how I misread Steel_Wind's post as your own - my apologies.

[The Raven Black]

Steel_Wind wrote:

Top Shelf

Carrion Crown
Curse of the Crimson Throne
Hell's Rebels
Iron Gods
Kingmaker
Rise of the Runelords
Skull & Shackles
Wrath of the Righteous (Note: this is an assessment of the AP itself after decoupling it from the Mythic Rules, which are awful. If you want an AP to convert to PF2 from PF1? This AP, RotRL or CotCT are your podium choices – as long as you strip Mythic out of WotR.)

Middle Tier
Ironfang Invasion
Reign of Winter
Return of the Runelords
Ruins of Azlant
Shattered Star
Strange Aeons
Tyrant's Grasp
War for the Crown

Bottom Rung
Council of Thieves
Giantslayer
Hell's Vengeance
Jade Regent
Legacy of Fire
Mummy's Mask
Second Darkness
Serpent's Skull

I could get into a long explanation to defend and explain the above choices – (believe me I have extensive and well thought out reasons for this) – but if I post those reasons and start getting into the minutiae and criticism, all that will accomplish is piss off and potentially denigrate many ex-Paizo developers (and maybe a few who aren’t), alienate current freelancers and, in general, piss in the coffee cups of a lot of people who, understandably, would not appreciate that flavor with their java.

So, no, I’m not going to do that.

I will say this: the job of developer of an Adventure Path was invented by James Jacobs back in the days of Dungeon and was refined over a course of many years by him while at Paizo. He did the job the longest – and he did it best. Far and away the best - No, it’s not even close.

I also consider James Jacobs to be the best adventure writer for RPGs of all time. Yes, I mean that – all the way back to 1974. There are no asterisks or exceptions to that overall representation of quality or statement of approbation. No, it doesn’t mean that everything he has written is awesome – he’s had some duds in there, too – but overall, yes, he’s the best there is or ever was. That matters.

As for freelancer writers on whom so much depends – the...

Good for you, I guess, that James Jacobs is working on new APs.

How would you rank the PF2 APs all by themselves ? IIRC you liked Agents of Edgewatch except for the loot system which, by default, rewarded playing corrupt cops.

[Steve Geddes]

Best AP is such a weird concept. Does it mean the one you personally enjoyed the most? Or is it something academic - measuring each against some platonic, ideal AP? Serpent’s Skull is widely regarded as a poor AP, but it was one of the ones that played the best at our table. Does that mean I should rate it as good or bad?

[The Raven Black]

Steve Geddes wrote:

Best AP is such a weird concept. Does it mean the one you personally enjoyed the most? Or is it something academic - measuring each against some platonic, ideal AP? Serpent’s Skull is widely regarded as a poor AP, but it was one of the ones that played the best at our table. Does that mean I should rate it as good or bad?

It's like a poll : you give your rating and the laws of statistics will help sort the results.

I believe there was actually a thread with such a poll somewhere around.

Heck, IIRC we even had a guide to the APs with a discussion thread on these boards.

Now, I think what would be most useful is why people really liked or disliked such and such AP and whether the GM needed to put a lot of effort in adapting it to their table.

Maybe we should start a thread asking people what they really enjoy (or don't) in APs so that we could get a list of criteria. That could be then used as a grid to rate each AP on each axis.

[James Jacobs]

One of the reasons why we do so many Adventure Paths is because we will NEVER publish everyone's favorite one. THe more we do gets us closer to that goal.

And please folks... if someone makes a list of their favorites, let them like things. It's okay if some folks prefer elements that you might not, and vice versa. Them not listing your favorites does not make your favorites any less your favorite.

There are certainly ones that sell better than others. Some that have better reviews than others. And some that I personally had more fun working on than others. Those lists will never be identical.

[Lord Fyre]

keftiu wrote:

Lord Fyre wrote:

keftiu wrote:

I think a conversation about Paizo’s best that doesn’t include Strength of Thousands isn’t a serious one, personally.

I cannot say. I have very little familiarity with it.

Then why say "you get a top Adventure Path List that would exclude every single one of the Adv Paths written for PF2 so far, imo" if you haven't... actually... read the works you're disparaging?

In other news, one valid reason not to have read Strength of Thousands is that I still hope to play in that campaign. :)

[zimmerwald1915]

Lord Fyre wrote:

keftiu wrote:

Lord Fyre wrote:

keftiu wrote:

I think a conversation about Paizo’s best that doesn’t include Strength of Thousands isn’t a serious one, personally.

I cannot say. I have very little familiarity with it.

Then why say "you get a top Adventure Path List that would exclude every single one of the Adv Paths written for PF2 so far, imo" if you haven't... actually... read the works you're disparaging?

In other news, one valid reason not to have read Strength of Thousands is that I still hope to play in that campaign. :)

Imagine being able to play Pathfinder at any point.

[magnuskn]

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

Abomination Vaults and Strength of Thousands easily rank alongside RotRL and CotCT, and are just behind the best Paizo AP ever, Reign of Winter.

It certainly contains the best single AP volume ever, Rasputin Must Die! Can't say that I agree on that making it the best AP ever, though. Modules 3 + 4 + 6 are damn weaksauce, to the point that I ended the AP at module 5, because after that awesome story I didn't want to put the players through the lame stuff which came after.

[magnuskn]

Steve Geddes wrote:

Best AP is such a weird concept. Does it mean the one you personally enjoyed the most? Or is it something academic - measuring each against some platonic, ideal AP? Serpent’s Skull is widely regarded as a poor AP, but it was one of the ones that played the best at our table. Does that mean I should rate it as good or bad?

I think that has to be separated into "things which universally can be graded" and "things which should be regarded as subjective".

The theme of the adventure path is something which can be regarded only from a subjective standpoint. I hugely enjoy urban adventure paths and dislike overlong dungeon delves and story-light exploration. Other people adore those kinds of stories.

But there are aspects which can be examined with some degree of objectivity. These would include:

- Story structure: Is the story presented in a cohesive manner? Are antagonists introduced and written in a way which makes them interesting? Do the player characters even encounter the BBEG in some way before finally confronting her/him in the final encounter (Carrion Crown, as written, was so dismal on that aspect that the writers themselves had to put in a foreword for the sixth module that the GM's probably should have the BBEG appear a bit earlier in the AP as a cameo).

- Subsystems: Paizo loves their subsystems. Only that many of them don't work (Caravan system from Jade Regent) or are terribly unbalanced (original kingdom rules from Kingmaker 1E). Encountering one which actually is not terrible (like the rebellion rules in Hell's Rebels, which are just a bit boring, but functional) is always a big plus.

- Encounter balance: Are the encounters in the AP a challenge without being a TPK trap? Can this balance be maintained throughout the AP or do high-level encounters turn into rocket tag? The latter issue has largely been resolved with 2E (one of its biggest selling points for me), while the former seems to have been evened out as well from the bumpy beginnings of 2E.

[Steve Geddes]

magnuskn wrote:

But there are aspects which can be examined with some degree of objectivity. These would include:

- Story structure: Is the story presented in a cohesive manner? Are antagonists introduced and written in a way which makes them interesting? Do the player characters even encounter the BBEG in some way before finally confronting her/him in the final encounter (Carrion Crown, as written, was so dismal on that aspect that the writers themselves had to put in a foreword for the sixth module that the GM's probably should have the BBEG appear a bit earlier in the AP as a cameo).

- Subsystems: Paizo loves their subsystems. Only that many of them don't work (Caravan system from Jade Regent) or are terribly unbalanced (original kingdom rules from Kingmaker 1E). Encountering one which actually is not terrible (like the rebellion rules in Hell's Rebels, which are just a bit boring, but functional) is always a big plus.

- Encounter balance: Are the encounters in the AP a challenge without being a TPK trap? Can this balance be maintained throughout the AP or do high-level encounters turn into rocket tag? The latter issue has largely been resolved with 2E (one of its biggest selling points for me), while the former seems to have been evened out as well from the bumpy beginnings of 2E.

You seek find this interesting. I agree with you in that I think this is what people are meaning when they ask which is best. But even these are not really objective, I think.

Subsystems (for example) are irrelevant to me in terms of whether I think it’s a “good” AP. Those that work for our group, I use and those that don’t I just narrate, handwave or switch to a tactical solution. What matters for me is the story and I regard the resolution process encapsulated within subsystems as suggestions, at best.

I’m even reluctant to include story structure, merely because some of the APs that read well have left my group bored. Whereas some that I thought were going to be lame are still talked about years later.

I’ve also seen so many debates with people screaming at one another about what constitutes “good” game design, no matter how diametrically opposed their views. It’s an uncomfortable view for me because I’m basically an objectivist wrt just about everything.

[mikeawmids]

magnuskn wrote:

Subsystems: Paizo loves their subsystems. Only that many of them don't work (Caravan system from Jade Regent) or are terribly unbalanced (original kingdom rules from Kingmaker 1E). Encountering one which actually is not terrible (like the rebellion rules in Hell's Rebels, which are just a bit boring, but functional) is always a big plus.

I will - and recently have - marked AP volumes down in review because of what I perceive as an unnecessary and egregious use of subsystems. I'll grudgingly concede that managing a caravan or organizing a rebellion justify the use of a subsystem to keep track of everything across the course of the entire campaign, but recently we have seen subsystems to handle the most trivial bs imaginable.

An NPC has information that could help your investigation? Better start gathering Influence points!

You're being chased by an angry bloke with a big stick? Let's hope you can accumulate enough Evasion points to escape!

Do you want to buy that cool magic item from the skeezy merchant? He's not gonna' sell unless you've collected enough Negotiation points to satisfy his weird and inconvenient compulsion to haggle.

... and so on. Usually followed by a blatant advertisement to buy whatever splat book that particularly subsystem appears within.

Sure, I can - and will - cut this stuff out of any AP I actually run, but having to read this [content] on an initial assessment of any module is dull as F.

[keftiu]

mikeawmids wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

Subsystems: Paizo loves their subsystems. Only that many of them don't work (Caravan system from Jade Regent) or are terribly unbalanced (original kingdom rules from Kingmaker 1E). Encountering one which actually is not terrible (like the rebellion rules in Hell's Rebels, which are just a bit boring, but functional) is always a big plus.

I will - and recently have - marked AP volumes down in review because of what I perceive as an unnecessary and egregious use of subsystems. I'll grudgingly concede that managing a caravan or organizing a rebellion justify the use of a subsystem to keep track of everything across the course of the entire campaign, but recently we have seen subsystems to handle the most trivial bs imaginable.

An NPC has information that could help your investigation? Better start gathering Influence points!

You're being chased by an angry bloke with a big stick? Let's hope you can accumulate enough Evasion points to escape!

Do you want to buy that cool magic item from the skeezy merchant? He's not gonna' sell unless you've collected enough Negotiation points to satisfy his weird and inconvenient compulsion to haggle.

... and so on. Usually followed by a blatant advertisement to buy whatever splat book that particularly subsystem appears within.

Sure, I can - and will - cut this stuff out of any AP I actually run, but having to read this [content] on an initial assessment of any module is dull as F.

All those subsystems are freely available via Archives of Nethys.

[Arcaian]

mikeawmids wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

Subsystems: Paizo loves their subsystems. Only that many of them don't work (Caravan system from Jade Regent) or are terribly unbalanced (original kingdom rules from Kingmaker 1E). Encountering one which actually is not terrible (like the rebellion rules in Hell's Rebels, which are just a bit boring, but functional) is always a big plus.

I will - and recently have - marked AP volumes down in review because of what I perceive as an unnecessary and egregious use of subsystems. I'll grudgingly concede that managing a caravan or organizing a rebellion justify the use of a subsystem to keep track of everything across the course of the entire campaign, but recently we have seen subsystems to handle the most trivial bs imaginable.

An NPC has information that could help your investigation? Better start gathering Influence points!

You're being chased by an angry bloke with a big stick? Let's hope you can accumulate enough Evasion points to escape!

Do you want to buy that cool magic item from the skeezy merchant? He's not gonna' sell unless you've collected enough Negotiation points to satisfy his weird and inconvenient compulsion to haggle.

... and so on. Usually followed by a blatant advertisement to buy whatever splat book that particularly subsystem appears within.

Sure, I can - and will - cut this stuff out of any AP I actually run, but having to read this [content] on an initial assessment of any module is dull as F.

These all sound like they're using the Victory Point system from the GMG, which isn't exactly a splatbook. But your concerns there will be alleviated by the inclusion of the system in GM Core, so there'll be no more 'advertisements' for anything that isn't one of the two fundamental books of the system! And as keftiu said, it's a system that is freely available online from an official Paizo source, implying that they're including these to drive sales of the GMG seems a little hyperbolic. Similarly, the implication that these are all different subsystems is missing the point - the name of the points differ, but they're all basically the Victory Points system. It's one thing to learn, and I think it does a very nice job at giving a systematized way to handle skill challenges.