| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"Hey we got to get rid of a god due to OGL- Lets focus on event around him/her/them" feels kind of overdoing it from the company that handwaved away Drow and other offenders.
I want a strong narrative reason, not line items.
we shouldn't compare puddles to ponds just because they both are bodies of water.
handwaving Drow away is lot easier than handwaving one of the main villains and pillars of your game setting.
Asmodeus is a liability. and trying to avoid using him again in future setting books would be crazy, way easier just to kill him.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If Asmodeus is indeed a liability that is because it's grounded in real-world religious mythology and history and could potentially be considered "offensive" to some real human cultures or people, not because of anything to do with HASBRO, they in no way own the name or the way he is presented in Paizo materials, be it in description or in illustrations, they have LESS footing to stand on with a legal case or filing that they "own" big-A than they would for trying to say they own the concept of Satyrs as they're depicted in RPGs and popular media.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If Asmodeus is indeed a liability that is because it's grounded in real-world religious mythology and history and could potentially be considered "offensive" to some real human cultures or people, not because of anything to do with HASBRO, they in no way own the name or the way he is presented in Paizo materials, be it in description or in illustrations, they have LESS footing to stand on with a legal case or filing that they "own" big-A than they would for trying to say they own the concept of Satyrs as they're depicted in RPGs and popular media.
lamashtu and most of the named devils and demons are from real world/myth and religion.
That would actually give him some protection however He is a liability because his pathfinder incarnation is almost identical to his D&D incarnation.
there once was a company called Aureal. An amazing company, they got sued for patent infringement by Creative. Aureal won easily, however the lawsuit bankrupted the company, Creative came in brought the company and buried all the patents.
The whole point of the ORC license is to avoid this situation. Leaving Asmodeus seems awfully risky and counterproductive.
I would kind of love for it to be Urgathoa, only to have her portfolio be absorbed by Arazni(at least the undead domains). That way its a kick in the balls to the Whispering Tyrant. He's tried so hard to become a god and now he's been passed over by both of Arodon's heralds and his patron goddess is dead. LOL!
(Bonus points if it puts Arazni in charge of his phylactory)
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not a fan of making Arazni the setting's goddess of undeath. I feel she works a lot better in her almost punk-ish "Undead who don't want to be undead, hate necromancers, and are (comparatively) not very evil" doesn't really work unless there's also a more prominent deity of "evil deity of being an undead and necromancy" for them to be opposed to. Like, it'd be a cool moment but I feel in the long run it'd be really damaging to both the character of Arazni and the setting as a whole (as it'd also notably shift how undead and necromancers would seem to be by default to people unfamiliar to the setting, and even to those more familiar to it make the "balance of power" between the "good guys" and necromancers seem very different).
Like, you could make her core, but it'd have to be replacing some other core deity (probably one of the neuteral or good ones--whilst she's technically evil in-setting, she's against other evil groups enough that it makes more sense to narritively take the place of a good one than an evil without making the set of core deities feeling unbalanced)
(Also, I feel if Arazni were put in charge of Baphy's Soul Cage, her first reaction would be to immediately destroy it tbh, she very much wants him destroyed)
I'm not a fan of making Arazni the setting's goddess of undeath. I feel she works a lot better in her almost punk-ish "Undead who don't want to be undead, hate necromancers, and are (comparatively) not very evil" doesn't really work unless there's also a more prominent deity of "evil deity of being an undead and necromancy" for them to be opposed to. Like, it'd be a cool moment but I feel in the long run it'd be really damaging to both the character of Arazni and the setting as a whole (as it'd also notably shift how undead and necromancers would seem to be by default to people unfamiliar to the setting, and even to those more familiar to it make the "balance of power" between the "good guys" and necromancers seem very different).
Like, you could make her core, but it'd have to be replacing some other core deity (probably one of the neuteral or good ones--whilst she's technically evil in-setting, she's against other evil groups enough that it makes more sense to narritively take the place of a good one than an evil without making the set of core deities feeling unbalanced)
(Also, I feel if Arazni were put in charge of Baphy's Soul Cage, her first reaction would be to immediately destroy it tbh, she very much wants him destroyed)
Yeah you're probably right on that, but it still would be kind of fun to watch. What if she gifted the mantle of "evil deity of being an undead and necromancy" to Norgerber, another of the ascendant court. Just to taunt ole boney. And she would probably destroy his soul cage first chance she got.
If Arazni got her hands of Tar-Baphon's soul cage, the question isn't "will she destroy it?" Of course she will. The question is "how would she pass the time before then?" If there's a way to get at a lich via their soul cage, she would either know it or figure it out in short order.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't expect Arazni to replace Urgathoa, but if she did, I imagine it would be excruciatingly satisfying for her to crush TB's soul cage in the palm of her hand and watch him go frantic with the realisation that she has doomed him to the slow erosion of mind and body of demilichdom. It would be a cruel way to go for a cruel tyrant by a vindictive goddess. He waits for her with growing paranoia to finally come to his fortress and kill him, but she has a more fitting fate in mind: Just leave him like that, the one-great Whispering Tyrant, until eventually some band of adventurers--presumably including at least one child of Lastwall--come looking for him to settle the score, to dispatch him like just another dangerous monster guarding loot in the bottom of a dungeon.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
A big good dying off would 'balance' the Redeemer Queen turning good.
She didn't become good. She's Chaotic Neutral.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That would actually give him some protection however He is a liability because his pathfinder incarnation is almost identical to his D&D incarnation.
It's really not, though. The 5e version is all about trickery and illusions and lies. The PF2 version is all about contracts and actually holding to them (while makign them as lopsided in your own favor as you can), and not showing mercy to your enemies and buying into established hierarchies. The only thing they really have in common is the fact that both versions are at the top of the stack in hell, and that actually came from the original texts.
That would actually give him some protection however He is a liability because his pathfinder incarnation is almost identical to his D&D incarnation.It's really not, though. The 5e version is all about trickery and illusions and lies. The PF2 version is all about contracts and actually holding to them (while makign them as lopsided in your own favor as you can), and not showing mercy to your enemies and buying into established hierarchies. The only thing they really have in common is the fact that both versions are at the top of the stack in hell, and that actually came from the original texts.
It's still too close. the only way to win is not fight, which is this case means you win a motion to dismiss.
Asmodeus is too close; you could never get granted a motion to dismiss.
captain marvel/shazam was considered close to superman.
I will be shocked if we see Asmodeus as part of the core 20 deities.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
See the copy of this thread in Lost Omens where James clarifies (more than once to my memory) that thus plot line predates the OGL debacle, so if Azzy is the one to die it won't be in account of similarities. Additionally James implied that all archdevils could continue to be usable usable except Tiamat (who had been dropped long ago). It's possible Paizo will set Asmodeus in the back burner to be safe, or it's possible he was always slated for the chopping block since long before the OGL mess, but OGL wasn't the deciding factor.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hasbro/WotC has in the past shown tendency to either assume nothing interesting happens and things stay as status quo(because they don't want every adventure where party defeats Tiamat to canonically happen so that Tiamat would have canonically as many defeats as team rocket or something) OR the thing that happens is crappiest thing for character involved :'D
Do note that this is the company that for long time treated Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Night games as non canon then decided to canonize BG in "Oh and MC died and Bhaal came back anyway after the games"
AND canonize "Aribeth de Tylmarande was corrupted by her time in Hell and now she's tearing around the Sword Coast like some deranged fanfiction mashup of Marvel's Ghost Rider, DC's Two-Face and Elric of Melniboné!" >:(
It is important to remember that will Asmodeus is the most D&D of the core 20 he still comes from Abrahamic religions and is in the public domain. He has some accept of Satan being the leader of Hell in D&D. That not enough to make him unique enough to be a problem for Paizo, as Satan stand in are a dime a dozen.
|
|
It is important to remember that will Asmodeus is the most D&D of the core 20 he still comes from Abrahamic religions and is in the public domain. He has some accept of Satan being the leader of Hell in D&D. That not enough to make him unique enough to be a problem for Paizo, as Satan stand in are a dime a dozen.
The matter is whether Paizo's Asmodeus is sufficiently different from WotC's Asmodeus that WotC suing Paizo in court over IP would be utterly absurd and not worth the effort.
The idea is not winning the action by the way. It is of just going to court and crashing your opponent's finances.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is important to remember that will Asmodeus is the most D&D of the core 20 he still comes from Abrahamic religions and is in the public domain. He has some accept of Satan being the leader of Hell in D&D. That not enough to make him unique enough to be a problem for Paizo, as Satan stand in are a dime a dozen.The matter is whether Paizo's Asmodeus is sufficiently different from WotC's Asmodeus that WotC suing Paizo in court over IP would be utterly absurd and not worth the effort.
The idea is not winning the action by the way. It is of just going to court and crashing your opponent's finances.
WotC/Hasbro could do that over basically anything Paizo does, relevance be damned, so I don't see how relevance is helpful in determining whether they can be sued or not over it.
|
|
WotC/Hasbro could do that over basically anything Paizo does, relevance be damned, so I don't see how relevance is helpful in determining whether they can be sued or not over it.It is important to remember that will Asmodeus is the most D&D of the core 20 he still comes from Abrahamic religions and is in the public domain. He has some accept of Satan being the leader of Hell in D&D. That not enough to make him unique enough to be a problem for Paizo, as Satan stand in are a dime a dozen.The matter is whether Paizo's Asmodeus is sufficiently different from WotC's Asmodeus that WotC suing Paizo in court over IP would be utterly absurd and not worth the effort.
The idea is not winning the action by the way. It is of just going to court and crashing your opponent's finances.
I am in no way an expert, but I guess if it was that simple, WotC/Hasbro would have done it already.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am in no way an expert, but I guess if it was that simple, WotC/Hasbro would have done it already.WotC/Hasbro could do that over basically anything Paizo does, relevance be damned, so I don't see how relevance is helpful in determining whether they can be sued or not over it.It is important to remember that will Asmodeus is the most D&D of the core 20 he still comes from Abrahamic religions and is in the public domain. He has some accept of Satan being the leader of Hell in D&D. That not enough to make him unique enough to be a problem for Paizo, as Satan stand in are a dime a dozen.The matter is whether Paizo's Asmodeus is sufficiently different from WotC's Asmodeus that WotC suing Paizo in court over IP would be utterly absurd and not worth the effort.
The idea is not winning the action by the way. It is of just going to court and crashing your opponent's finances.
Or, they don't want to deal with frivolous lawsuits themselves, because they don't like dealing/spending money on them themselves.
Plenty of reasons not to sue people just to generate expensive lawyer fees, otherwise the court system would be even more overflowed than what it already is.
Asmodeus is the core deity whose death would most strongly affect the setting, as he is the patron of Cheliax. The confirmed death of Asmodeus would obviously rock that nation to its core, much as the death of Aroden did in the previous century.
From the gods' side, who would be brave enough to try to take over as the patron of Cheliax? With two of these patrons dying in a little over a century, which deity would try to take over as the next patron? And which of the remaining deities would the people of Cheliax turn to? Iomedae might want to press her claim as the inheritor of Aroden, but I doubt that a nation where people have been worshiping Asmodeus for several decades would be willing to make such a radical change from evil to good, especially with that recent war against followers of Iomedae.
|
|
Asmodeus is the core deity whose death would most strongly affect the setting, as he is the patron of Cheliax. The confirmed death of Asmodeus would obviously rock that nation to its core, much as the death of Aroden did in the previous century.From the gods' side, who would be brave enough to try to take over as the patron of Cheliax? With two of these patrons dying in a little over a century, which deity would try to take over as the next patron? And which of the remaining deities would the people of Cheliax turn to? Iomedae might want to press her claim as the inheritor of Aroden, but I doubt that a nation where people have been worshiping Asmodeus for several decades would be willing to make such a radical change from evil to good, especially with that recent war against followers of Iomedae.
Zon-kuthon.
Zon-kuthon.
Asmodeus is the core deity whose death would most strongly affect the setting, as he is the patron of Cheliax. The confirmed death of Asmodeus would obviously rock that nation to its core, much as the death of Aroden did in the previous century.From the gods' side, who would be brave enough to try to take over as the patron of Cheliax? With two of these patrons dying in a little over a century, which deity would try to take over as the next patron? And which of the remaining deities would the people of Cheliax turn to? Iomedae might want to press her claim as the inheritor of Aroden, but I doubt that a nation where people have been worshiping Asmodeus for several decades would be willing to make such a radical change from evil to good, especially with that recent war against followers of Iomedae.
The patron of Nidal? Best choice in terms of closest alignment match among the top 20, but otherwise many issues (as is the case with nearly every other candidate).
The first candidate I thought of is whoever comes out on top in the power struggle to become the leader of Hell, but the issues for that devil would include the following:
1) That struggle could take a while.
2) The winner would be considerably weaker than Asmodeus was.
3) All contracts made with Asmodeus would be null and void and would have to be renegotiated with the new guy.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you think that Asmodeus has more impact on the setting than Abadar or Pharasma I have to question how closely you've been paying attention.
Without Abadar economies across the globe would instantly collapse as chaos and revolution would ensue given that the church losing its identity and divine right/cause/justification to control the lion's share of the global coin, capital, and real estate would result in something that would make a real-life earth real estate collapse look pale in comparison. This isn't even mentioning the loss of the literal backup of EVERY valuable/magical thing that has ever been created in the universe ala the First Vault.
Without Pharasma the dead, undead, spirits, and lost souls of the setting would quite simply bottleneck and completely overwhelm the material plane while also providing more influence and power to the baddie necromancers of the world than I can possibly describe without being accused of espousing hyperbole.
One medium-sized nation that has been actively undergoing one national, identity, and economic collapse after another for the last several decades losing its mascot deity is nothing compared to the impact that other deities going poof would, especially since his domain is Law and there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO chance there isn't a miraculously/magically enforced contract that is upheld by at least one or two other deities to dictate what should go down if he ever kicks the bucket if there is any one being in the setting that would have an ironclad Will contract drafted it's him.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wait, I don't recall it ever being implied that the gods actively maintain every aspect if their domain, and that the death of a god of rivers for example would mean that water forgets how to flow riverly? Pharasmin is the biggest and most important judge f the dead, but the majority of souls could still be passed through the whole afterlife bureaucracy just the same as before, only without Pharasma's divine aegis, so the whole thing might be a lot shakier than before.
As for commerce, surely other continents also have gods of wealth and economy... Is Abadar the only money and city god for the planet? It would be a significant destabilizing effect, but perhaps people would still understand how to exchange goods without him? (Though the sudden loss if faith in his banks... That might cause a bit of chaos)
WotC/Hasbro could do that over basically anything Paizo does, relevance be damned, so I don't see how relevance is helpful in determining whether they can be sued or not over it.It is important to remember that will Asmodeus is the most D&D of the core 20 he still comes from Abrahamic religions and is in the public domain. He has some accept of Satan being the leader of Hell in D&D. That not enough to make him unique enough to be a problem for Paizo, as Satan stand in are a dime a dozen.The matter is whether Paizo's Asmodeus is sufficiently different from WotC's Asmodeus that WotC suing Paizo in court over IP would be utterly absurd and not worth the effort.
The idea is not winning the action by the way. It is of just going to court and crashing your opponent's finances.
it does matter. if someone sues you frivolously (in this case probably asking for damages and a preliminary injunction) you can file an answer asking for pre-trial motion to dismiss. if you are the suing party, this is a worst case scenario, you want to avoid this at all cost). the goal of the remaster is that if wotc were to file a suit, Pazio could answer and be granted pre-trial motion to dismiss.
Asmodeus is too close to be granted a pre-trial motion to dismiss. He would require a trial, and at that point it doesn't matter, because the point of the suit is not to win, but to make your opponent spend money in defense in this case. (there are exceptions eg Apple v. Epic)
So yes revalence 100% matter, that why there is a remaster project.
I don't think there is any chance that Asmodeus is the one who dies to start the event. He's one of the top 2 big bads in the entire setting, if he's going to die it should be framed as a huge victory for the good guys not "something that sets of a chain of events."
But they said "at least one core 20 deity is going to die" so it's possible they will kill all 20. It seems likely that the event will start with a deity dying that the playerbase would likely see as a "loss" and end with a deity dying that the playerbase would like see as a "win."
That why I think most evil deities are safe except for Zon-Kuthon because there is a greater evil that corrupted him that could possible step into replace. And there is a narrative tragic that you could spin it as the brother Shelyn so long try to free is died.
Torag the 'Not' Genocidal is a good candidate for removal.
"Go to the sky! Don't pass Go, don't collect 200 gp."
Nah, get rid of that racist beard-boy and let someone better in the Pantheon take over the Dwarven Pantheon.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Torag the 'Not' Genocidal is a good candidate for removal."Go to the sky! Don't pass Go, don't collect 200 gp."
Nah, get rid of that racist beard-boy and let someone better in the Pantheon take over the Dwarven Pantheon.
You can be an Orc follower of Torag. How is he racist ?
Lawful Good has Good in it. Torag is not racist nor genocidal. Just as Erastil is not a mysogin. And Ragathiel is not a serial killer.
Good means Good.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Torag the 'Not' Genocidal is a good candidate for removal."Go to the sky! Don't pass Go, don't collect 200 gp."
Nah, get rid of that racist beard-boy and let someone better in the Pantheon take over the Dwarven Pantheon.
You can be an Orc follower of Torag. How is he racist ?
Lawful Good has Good in it. Torag is not racist nor genocidal. Just as Erastil is not a mysogin. And Ragathiel is not a serial killer.
Good means Good.
Stolen Fate had an awful lot to say about this, and I think that’s all I’ll say about it for now… but I would not say Torag is an uncomplicated god, at the very least. He’s been complicit in some not-so-Good-or-Lawful stuff for a long time in the lore.
|
|
Torag the 'Not' Genocidal is a good candidate for removal."Go to the sky! Don't pass Go, don't collect 200 gp."
Nah, get rid of that racist beard-boy and let someone better in the Pantheon take over the Dwarven Pantheon.
You can be an Orc follower of Torag. How is he racist ?
Lawful Good has Good in it. Torag is not racist nor genocidal. Just as Erastil is not a mysogin. And Ragathiel is not a serial killer.
Good means Good.
Stolen Fate had an awful lot to say about this, and I think that’s all I’ll say about it for now… but I would not say Torag is an uncomplicated god, at the very least. He’s been complicit in some not-so-Good-or-Lawful stuff for a long time in the lore.
Then he should not have been tagged as Lawful Good.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
By that logic the death of Aroden, god of humanity, should have caused the death of humanity.
I don't think you grasp the scope of how important and big of a role that Abadar and his Church has on the setting.
The Church of Abadar is in a general sense as a whole like a truly universal banking system that operates not only on a global but also interstellar and interdimensional level, from the very top at the highest most unapproachably high levels all the way down to the tiniest of community credit unions that really only function to serve extremely local communities.
If Abadar went poof and the powers of the faithful evaporated the entire system would collapse in an instant, the clergy wouldn't even be able to reliably communicate with one another as they are used to and 100% of their magically protected and safeguarded vaults would either just instantly fail and become mere walls of wood/stone/metal and the more exotic ones such as extraplanar pockets and the like would become permanently incapable or functionally destroyed entirely which would cause an instant and likely irreversible loss of what I imagine MUST be the majority of all of the wealth/coin that is held by EVERY major government, business, or merchant in the entire universe.
On top of all that, this doesn't even begin to touch on what would happen with all of the assets that ARE still functionally accessible and in the hands of a now completely mundane and non-magical priesthood that no longer has a Deity, anathema, or is beholden to anything at all beyond what they know most which is, well, acquiring/hoarding wealth and coin.
His demise would lead to a collapse of trade, banking, loans, and most likely all major forms of land rights/ownership which, even if another Deity and faith stepped forward to pick up the pieces, would have an IMMENSE impact on the setting. Sure, if Asmodeus died there would be some disruption in Cheliax on some level at least and that nation might even finally just fail outright but if Abadar were the one to croak then nearly EVERY government and nation would fall practically overnight due to the businesses failing at the same time as ALL forms of coin valuation being DRASTICALLY deflated (likely by 90% or more given that almost all wealth on the planet is secured by the church and would become inaccessible).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Noooooo you don't understand, this fictional character said something that, given the worst possible interpretation, is bad, so they must be erased forever!
Regardless, I think Paizo's creativity is way above the level of: "This god is no longer conform, let's have them die to justify their removal!"
I could understand if they feel that they unfortunately have to get rid of Asmodeus, and thus make the thing a part of a larger plot they were already developing; but even assuming that they have a god they simply don't like anymore, making a whole storyline so that they can put them aside looks too cheesy for them.
|
If it is Asmodeus, was he wise enough to put contingency clauses in all his contracts, or was he arrogant enough to believe he was invincible.
As to law suits, I'd almost love to see one over Asmodeus, just to see news stories featuring the name "Asmodeus" in the headlines: "Hasbro fights for Control of Asmodeus"!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Saying that hasbro owns Asmodeus is hilarious. Its like saying that Hasbro owns the term "mana" because Magic the Gathering has mana.
Hasbro does not own Asmodeus, and they certainly do not own Paizo's version of Asmodeus. No amount of court shopping is going to change that because Asmodeus is in the public domain. It would be like Disney claiming any reference to Norse gods is theirs because they own Marvel's Thor, not even Disney can't win that one.
Also given the stuff they have mentioned the gos they will get rid off is going to be the one that the dev team itself likes the the least. Not some random god based on how one country is going to react. My bet is that they kill Nethys to justify making magic weaker.
I believe you are mistaken on this subject.
firstly, it's not about ownership, it's about using someone's else creation or idea for your own benefit without permission.
secondly Thor and Asmodeus are not similarly situated. the reason you can use Thor, or vampires or gorgons or fairies, is because a majority of their lore is public domain. (note however that if you had a Thor that had the exact same costume as the marvel character, then you could be sued, because the costume itself is unique to the marvel superhero)
Nowhere in the real-world mythology is Asmodeus classified race belonging to a "devil" race, nor does it say he rules a 9 nine layered hell or eventually becomes a deity, that is all invention of D&D. Asmodeus as he appears in both pathfinder and Dungeon and Dragons bares little if any real resemblance to the Asmodeus that appears in the Tobitt or Talmud.
second since pathfinder originated as an OGL game, Parizo cannot claim that any similarity is accidental.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If it is Asmodeus, was he wise enough to put contingency clauses in all his contracts, or was he arrogant enough to believe he was invincible.
What deity would plan for his own demise? He certainly would not want to make things easier for the survivors if something did happen to him.
Of course, a natural thought would be whether consistency with the Starfinder setting would require the removal of Torag and/or Rovagug, as they are the only two deities specifically absent from that setting. But I have always assumed that they went wherever Golarion did and thus are most likely still alive.
Or can dead deities be brought back to life? The loss of power by some of the core deities in Starfinder could be the result of a temporary death.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If it is Asmodeus, was he wise enough to put contingency clauses in all his contracts, or was he arrogant enough to believe he was invincible.What deity would plan for his own demise? He certainly would not want to make things easier for the survivors if something did happen to him.
Of course, a natural thought would be whether consistency with the Starfinder setting would require the removal of Torag and/or Rovagug, as they are the only two deities specifically absent from that setting. But I have always assumed that they went wherever Golarion did and thus are most likely still alive.
Or can dead deities be brought back to life? The loss of power by some of the core deities in Starfinder could be the result of a temporary death.
you can use Thor as much as you want, but you can't put him in the costume that marvel created, that is copyright infringement. But you can use and all the lore around, that he is the god of thunder, all of it, because none of that was created by marvel. the hammer was not created by marvel, but the costume is, however.
This is not the same as Asmodeus, Asmodeus is flat out too close to the D&D version. t. they are both devils, which he is not in the lore, he is not the king of hell either in the lore, he is the king of demons in the lore, a deity, in the lore he does not rule over hell, nor is hell defined as having nine layers, he is not defined as being at war with demons in the lore, in fact in the lore he is the king of demons, every single one of those elements arose in D&D.
You can say that you don't think they are close, but the case law says otherwise.
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
If it is Asmodeus, was he wise enough to put contingency clauses in all his contracts, or was he arrogant enough to believe he was invincible.What deity would plan for his own demise? He certainly would not want to make things easier for the survivors if something did happen to him.
A deity who knows (or has sufficient reason to believe) that their demise is unavoidable and has goals they want achieved even if they cannot see it done themselves.
I mean, it's easy enough to imagine a good deity defending some dangerous artifact to put plans in place to have said artifact moved to the protection of an ally in the event of their death, or kept out of reach of those who would misuse it, at a minimum.
If the deity in question is well known as a Machiavellian schemer and they don't have plans specifically designed to go into motion upon their death, then what are they even doing?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Torag the 'Not' Genocidal is a good candidate for removal."Go to the sky! Don't pass Go, don't collect 200 gp."
Nah, get rid of that racist beard-boy and let someone better in the Pantheon take over the Dwarven Pantheon.
You can be an Orc follower of Torag. How is he racist ?
Lawful Good has Good in it. Torag is not racist nor genocidal. Just as Erastil is not a mysogin. And Ragathiel is not a serial killer.
Good means Good.
It's a really wonderful thing that alignment is being removed, because we will no longer be beaten over the head that (L)awful Good Best Good even if they allow genocide by not telling their people it's 'bad'.
And an Orc follower of Torag is a very recent development.
For several years Orcs were the 'other' 'enemy' race that were used to benchmark 'Good' behavior by giving a racist analog in game for player characters to 'kick down' while feeling good about themselves.
If Torag was truly the paragon that some would claim, he *would* have found a way to work *with* the Orc people rather than let them be pushed ahead of his 'chosen ones'.
Between him and Asmodeus, the Universe would be better with their removal.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If it is Asmodeus, was he wise enough to put contingency clauses in all his contracts, or was he arrogant enough to believe he was invincible.What deity would plan for his own demise? He certainly would not want to make things easier for the survivors if something did happen to him.
Of course, a natural thought would be whether consistency with the Starfinder setting would require the removal of Torag and/or Rovagug, as they are the only two deities specifically absent from that setting. But I have always assumed that they went wherever Golarion did and thus are most likely still alive.
Or can dead deities be brought back to life? The loss of power by some of the core deities in Starfinder could be the result of a temporary death.
you can use Thor as much as you want, but you can't put him in the costume that marvel created, that is copyright infringement. But you can use and all the lore around, that he is the god of thunder, all of it, because none of that was created by marvel. the hammer was not created by marvel, but the costume is, however.
This is not the same as Asmodeus, Asmodeus is flat out too close to the D&D version. t. they are both devils, which he is not in the lore, he is not the king of hell either in the lore, he is the king of demons in the lore, a deity, in the lore he does not rule over hell, nor is hell defined as having nine layers, he is not defined as being at war with demons in the lore, in fact in the lore he is the king of demons, every single one of those elements arose in D&D.
You can say that you don't think they are close, but the case law says otherwise.
Whilst you have a point, I think some of your specific examples aren't amazing. To go through them one by one:
"He is not a devil in lore": it's important to keep in mind that "devil" is usually referring to a single figure not a collective, so following this logic literally any Christian demons apart from like, Satan that got carried over to Pathfinder would be DnD-isms. Less a case of Asmo being a devil being an issue as much as the fact "devil vs demon" underling being the DnD-ism as they're pretty much the same thing; something which would be the case no matter the situation.Secondly, "He is not the king of Hell in the lore, just king of demons", yes, if we ignore the devil vs demon split (what just from this point forwards assume I always am--like I said, you kind of have to do seeing in the "lore" they're not really distinct in the first place) "King of Hell" is incredibly close to "Ruler of the inhabitants of Hell", so it's not like they're really pulling things from nothing.
Next, "Hell is not defined as having 9 layers", ok, whilst it's not defined as having 9 layers in the Book of Tobit or things like that, in probably the most famous classical example of what Hell was described as Dante's Inferno, it is, so it's really insane to me to treat it as some kind of DnD-ism and not just pulling from popular culture perceptions of Hell.
Finally "He is not at war with demons, that's a DnD thing", this really has issues in the fact that in PF lore Hell and the Outer Rifts just... aren't at war, so this's actually a difference between PF and DnD lore. Like, they might not be fond of each other, but then again no planes are fond of either of those planes and in fact at times they're even willing to work together (most famously with the case of daemons).
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Torag the 'Not' Genocidal is a good candidate for removal."Go to the sky! Don't pass Go, don't collect 200 gp."
Nah, get rid of that racist beard-boy and let someone better in the Pantheon take over the Dwarven Pantheon.
You can be an Orc follower of Torag. How is he racist ?
Lawful Good has Good in it. Torag is not racist nor genocidal. Just as Erastil is not a mysogin. And Ragathiel is not a serial killer.
Good means Good.
It's a really wonderful thing that alignment is being removed, because we will no longer be beaten over the head that (L)awful Good Best Good even if they allow genocide by not telling their people it's 'bad'.
And an Orc follower of Torag is a very recent development.
For several years Orcs were the 'other' 'enemy' race that were used to benchmark 'Good' behavior by giving a racist analog in game for player characters to 'kick down' while feeling good about themselves.
If Torag was truly the paragon that some would claim, he *would* have found a way to work *with* the Orc people rather than let them be pushed ahead of his 'chosen ones'.
Between him and Asmodeus, the Universe would be better with their removal.
FWIW I have never seen Lawful Good as the socially acceptable way of promoting genocide or the oppression of those who are deemed different.
Nor have I ever seen LG as the bestest Good BTW. Nor Chaotic Good for that matter.
As I said, Good means Good.
Now, if Torag has condoned or been complicit in Unlawful and/or Evil for a long time, then he should not have been tagged LG.
I have been, for some years now, fighting against the idea that Torag was the LG deity of genocide.
Because the mere idea that genocide can be deemed Good is abhorrent to me.
If I have unwittingly been defending Evil disguised as LG, I will definitely feel disgusted and betrayed. So, I hope this is not what happened.