|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If they do kill off Asmodeus, then that kinda makes the unleashing of the Rough Beast less likely since he's the guy who created the lock that seals him in the demiplane at the centre of the world - with him would go the knowledge of how it was made, or how to get through it. But if they do, given Golarion takes a lot of classical influence, I could see Dispater rising to replace him. They both fill a similar niche, and Dispater is arguable just as close to what Asmodeus is meant to be - a clear analogue to Satan who, though evil, keep their word - plus he's got a Hades/Persephone deal with Erecura a Hades/Zagreus deal with Ragathiel that would be neat to flesh out rather than just being The Big Red Guy who, let's be honest, doesn't have a lot of personality. Dispater brings some character complexity to his evil.
I don't know where it would leave Cheliax's pacts though, unless Asmodeus was very foresighted and included clauses that tied them to "the ruler of Hell" rather than Asmodeus himself. You could even end up with the Archdukes going to war with each other, but ending up settling on a joint council, suspiciously glaring at each other across a table every few aeons and keeping each other in check because disrupting the balance of power benefits nobody.
Dispater is way fonder of military power than Asmodeus, from what I'm seeing, which makes me think that Asmodeus dying and Dispater stepping in could lead to Cheliax going to war. The obvious targets of Andoran and Taldor seem like they'd make good red herrings, while, being of a more strategic bent, Dispater might go straight across the Arch of Aroden and seize Rahadoum, catching *everyone* off-guard, since that's not the 'obvious' target.
As Sun Tzu would advise, "Do not go where your enemies expect you to go. Be where they are not."
Mammon taking charge would have me ponder Druma as a target, but they aren't going to be a soft target, giving the massive ramping up of their defense forces, and ability to call in support from people who owe them money in, oh, every country in the Inner Sea. (Then again, if the guy you owe a ton of money to looks like he's about to get killed, that's the perfect time to be away from the phone...)
Just for the storytelling possibilities, Asmodeus is definitely one of my top picks. Sarenrae (driving Qadira, and possibly Kel, to war) or Urgathoa (to be replaced by Tar-Baphon, creating a situation where there's an evil expansionist death-god *living on the planet*) or a Shelyn / Zon-Kuthon server merge (affecting both Taldor and, much more so, Nidal) also have lots of dramatic potential.
Quite a few other gods deaths, by comparison, would be like non-events, from a geo-political standpoint, no matter how momentous to their followers.
If they do kill off Asmodeus, then that kinda makes the unleashing of the Rough Beast less likely since he's the guy who created the lock that seals him in the demiplane at the centre of the world - with him would go the knowledge of how it was made, or how to get through it. But if they do, given Golarion takes a lot of classical influence, I could see Dispater rising to replace him. They both fill a similar niche, and Dispater is arguable just as close to what Asmodeus is meant to be - a clear analogue to Satan who, though evil, keep their word - plus he's got a Hades/Persephone deal with Erecura a Hades/Zagreus deal with Ragathiel that would be neat to flesh out rather than just being The Big Red Guy who, let's be honest, doesn't have a lot of personality. Dispater brings some character complexity to his evil.
I don't know where it would leave Cheliax's pacts though, unless Asmodeus was very foresighted and included clauses that tied them to "the ruler of Hell" rather than Asmodeus himself. You could even end up with the Archdukes going to war with each other, but ending up settling on a joint council, suspiciously glaring at each other across a table every few aeons and keeping each other in check because disrupting the balance of power benefits nobody.
Makes me think of that real old Warner Brother's cartoon where a guy taunts a caged lion. At the end, he gets swallowed 'I'm a bad boy!" So Asmodeus gets a wee bit too close.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
If they do kill off Asmodeus, then that kinda makes the unleashing of the Rough Beast less likely since he's the guy who created the lock that seals him in the demiplane at the centre of the world - with him would go the knowledge of how it was made, or how to get through it.
Minor amendment; the version of the myth of Rovagug's imprisonment told in the Windsong Testaments suggests that it was actually Abadar who provided the lock and key--plausibly from his vault of perfect things, or at least related to it. Asmodeus' contribution in this version is being the only deity cunning enough to work the mechanism on the lock to turn the key and close it.
Since it's all just myths, technically neither version of the story has to be the objective canon, but this version does feel more complete than the one that came before, with details how the battle started and several other gods who participated.
...
Makes me think of that real old Warner Brother's cartoon where a guy taunts a caged lion. At the end, he gets swallowed 'I'm a bad boy!" So Asmodeus gets a wee bit too close.
|
Dispater is way fonder of military power than Asmodeus, from what I'm seeing, which makes me think that Asmodeus dying and Dispater stepping in could lead to Cheliax going to war. The obvious targets of Andoran and Taldor seem like they'd make good red herrings, while, being of a more strategic bent, Dispater might go straight across the Arch of Aroden and seize Rahadoum, catching *everyone* off-guard, since that's not the 'obvious' target.
A change in Hellish management does not imply that Cheliax goes to war with its neighbors, rather the opposite. In the first place, the state is weaker relative to its neighbors than it has ever been, and a change in management means less force available to assist than there might otherwise be, since those forces are keeping order at home. The new boss is likely to know that a gamble at this point risks losing the whole stake. In the second place, the regime is internally stronger than it has ever been. That gives it the means, and a change in management gives it the opportunity, to climb the ranks, relieve itself of some obligations, and acquire obligations from others.
Also, Mephistopheles, the consciousness of Hell itself, or Geryon, who is at least indigenous to the plane, seem prima facie like more likely candidates to take the reins (as primus inter pares or otherwise) than either Dispater or Mammon or any of the other Heavenly exiles (Barbatos aside, but he's not from Hell either).
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, Mephistopheles is next in line for sure. But if you're killing the God in charge of Hell, you could kill as many Archdevils as you want while you're at it.
By the time the dust settles, the Queens of the Night could be in charge of Hell.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Dispater is way fonder of military power than Asmodeus, from what I'm seeing, which makes me think that Asmodeus dying and Dispater stepping in could lead to Cheliax going to war. The obvious targets of Andoran and Taldor seem like they'd make good red herrings, while, being of a more strategic bent, Dispater might go straight across the Arch of Aroden and seize Rahadoum, catching *everyone* off-guard, since that's not the 'obvious' target.
As Sun Tzu would advise, "Do not go where your enemies expect you to go. Be where they are not."
Someone more militant stepping up as a patron might help with Cheliax's militarisation, but not necessarily (or immediately) invading neighbouring Rahadoum or picking a fight with Andoran and Taldor. Cheliax is already mobilising against a regional threat - Tar-Baphon. Cheliax is phasing out slavery by instead introducing conscription to serve in the forces it's sending to contain the undead hordes ravaging the former lands of Lastwall. But a simmering Cold War that will heat up years in the future (as I'm on record being for in the Cheliax thread) feels like a long-term story that could be worth telling.
If Asmodues dies and nobody replaces him as sole ruler of Hell, I could even see all the Archdevils and maybe some of the Infernal Dukes becoming patrons of different aspects of Chellish society - Mammon as patron of bankers, Dispater of prison-wardens and judges, Moloch of soldiers, Geryon of propaganda, Mephistopheles of the diplomatic corps, and so on. Just for fun, make Barbatos the patron of Cheliax's healthcare system. Really lean into Cheliax's relationship with ALL of Hell, not just Asmodeus himself, and tie all of their fortunes into Cheliax's worldly success to forestall a power vacuum.
|
If they do kill off Asmodeus, then that kinda makes the unleashing of the Rough Beast less likely since he's the guy who created the lock that seals him in the demiplane at the centre of the world - with him would go the knowledge of how it was made, or how to get through it.Minor amendment; the version of the myth of Rovagug's imprisonment told in the Windsong Testaments suggests that it was actually Abadar who provided the lock and key--plausibly from his vault of perfect things, or at least related to it. Asmodeus' contribution in this version is being the only deity cunning enough to work the mechanism on the lock to turn the key and close it.
Since it's all just myths, technically neither version of the story has to be the objective canon, but this version does feel more complete than the one that came before, with details how the battle started and several other gods who participated.
Makes you wonder why nobody ever tried to kill Asmodeus before, just to get rid of the guy who could potentially open the lock and release the beast.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If Asmodues dies and nobody replaces him as sole ruler of Hell, I could even see all the Archdevils and maybe some of the Infernal Dukes becoming patrons of different aspects of Chellish society - Mammon as patron of bankers, Dispater of prison-wardens and judges, Moloch of soldiers, Geryon of propaganda, Mephistopheles of the diplomatic corps, and so on. Just for fun, make Barbatos the patron of Cheliax's healthcare system. Really lean into Cheliax's relationship with ALL of Hell, not just Asmodeus himself, and tie all of their fortunes into Cheliax's worldly success to forestall a power vacuum.
Make it a pantheon. Call it the Infernal Bureaucracy, or something similar. I dig it.
Makes you wonder why nobody ever tried to kill Asmodeus before, just to get rid of the guy who could potentially open the lock and release the beast.If they do kill off Asmodeus, then that kinda makes the unleashing of the Rough Beast less likely since he's the guy who created the lock that seals him in the demiplane at the centre of the world - with him would go the knowledge of how it was made, or how to get through it.Minor amendment; the version of the myth of Rovagug's imprisonment told in the Windsong Testaments suggests that it was actually Abadar who provided the lock and key--plausibly from his vault of perfect things, or at least related to it. Asmodeus' contribution in this version is being the only deity cunning enough to work the mechanism on the lock to turn the key and close it.
Since it's all just myths, technically neither version of the story has to be the objective canon, but this version does feel more complete than the one that came before, with details how the battle started and several other gods who participated.
If Asmodeus is holding the key to Rovagug's prison, and dies, that creates instant plot threads for future APs. Since potentially the key to Rovagug's prison is out there, lacking deific protection. So you would have pretty much every divine power out there hunting it down to use as leverage against others (Let me do this/don't interfere with this, otherwise I open the lock) or to safeguard it to prevent misuse. Not to mention Rovagugs followers would be after the key, and in general Rovagug's cult might see this opportunity as a reason to rise up en-mass.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Beyond being second in command (and a living embodiment of Hell itself), Mephistopheles is also the kind of classic figure of fiction that I could see Paizo wanting to elevate to boss of Hell
As for what Cheliax does or how it affects the plans of Hell, I could only see a massive military mobilization occurring if Moloch gets placed in charge, but that seems unlikely. Mammon strikes me as someone more into economic domination than military.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The key to Murderworm's home reminds me of the Sandman story where the key to Hell being up for grabs, people flood the area trying to get it.
As for a devil running Cheliax's health care system, that sounds like something like is going on now. >.>
As for slavery is now conscription. I am sure that having lots of angry halflings in your military will not cause any problems what so ever.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Dispater is way fonder of military power than Asmodeus, from what I'm seeing, which makes me think that Asmodeus dying and Dispater stepping in could lead to Cheliax going to war. The obvious targets of Andoran and Taldor seem like they'd make good red herrings, while, being of a more strategic bent, Dispater might go straight across the Arch of Aroden and seize Rahadoum, catching *everyone* off-guard, since that's not the 'obvious' target.
As Sun Tzu would advise, "Do not go where your enemies expect you to go. Be where they are not."
Someone more militant stepping up as a patron might help with Cheliax's militarisation, but not necessarily (or immediately) invading neighbouring Rahadoum or picking a fight with Andoran and Taldor. Cheliax is already mobilising against a regional threat - Tar-Baphon. Cheliax is phasing out slavery by instead introducing conscription to serve in the forces it's sending to contain the undead hordes ravaging the former lands of Lastwall. But a simmering Cold War that will heat up years in the future (as I'm on record being for in the Cheliax thread) feels like a long-term story that could be worth telling.
If Asmodues dies and nobody replaces him as sole ruler of Hell, I could even see all the Archdevils and maybe some of the Infernal Dukes becoming patrons of different aspects of Chellish society - Mammon as patron of bankers, Dispater of prison-wardens and judges, Moloch of soldiers, Geryon of propaganda, Mephistopheles of the diplomatic corps, and so on. Just for fun, make Barbatos the patron of Cheliax's healthcare system. Really lean into Cheliax's relationship with ALL of Hell, not just Asmodeus himself, and tie all of their fortunes into Cheliax's worldly success to forestall a power vacuum.
Please, give me Hellknights as the tax service. I'm begging you.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Please, give me Hellknights as the tax service. I'm begging you.Dispater is way fonder of military power than Asmodeus, from what I'm seeing, which makes me think that Asmodeus dying and Dispater stepping in could lead to Cheliax going to war. The obvious targets of Andoran and Taldor seem like they'd make good red herrings, while, being of a more strategic bent, Dispater might go straight across the Arch of Aroden and seize Rahadoum, catching *everyone* off-guard, since that's not the 'obvious' target.
As Sun Tzu would advise, "Do not go where your enemies expect you to go. Be where they are not."
Someone more militant stepping up as a patron might help with Cheliax's militarisation, but not necessarily (or immediately) invading neighbouring Rahadoum or picking a fight with Andoran and Taldor. Cheliax is already mobilising against a regional threat - Tar-Baphon. Cheliax is phasing out slavery by instead introducing conscription to serve in the forces it's sending to contain the undead hordes ravaging the former lands of Lastwall. But a simmering Cold War that will heat up years in the future (as I'm on record being for in the Cheliax thread) feels like a long-term story that could be worth telling.
If Asmodues dies and nobody replaces him as sole ruler of Hell, I could even see all the Archdevils and maybe some of the Infernal Dukes becoming patrons of different aspects of Chellish society - Mammon as patron of bankers, Dispater of prison-wardens and judges, Moloch of soldiers, Geryon of propaganda, Mephistopheles of the diplomatic corps, and so on. Just for fun, make Barbatos the patron of Cheliax's healthcare system. Really lean into Cheliax's relationship with ALL of Hell, not just Asmodeus himself, and tie all of their fortunes into Cheliax's worldly success to forestall a power vacuum.
Order of the Sudden Audit.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Please, give me Hellknights as the tax service. I'm begging you.Dispater is way fonder of military power than Asmodeus, from what I'm seeing, which makes me think that Asmodeus dying and Dispater stepping in could lead to Cheliax going to war. The obvious targets of Andoran and Taldor seem like they'd make good red herrings, while, being of a more strategic bent, Dispater might go straight across the Arch of Aroden and seize Rahadoum, catching *everyone* off-guard, since that's not the 'obvious' target.
As Sun Tzu would advise, "Do not go where your enemies expect you to go. Be where they are not."
Someone more militant stepping up as a patron might help with Cheliax's militarisation, but not necessarily (or immediately) invading neighbouring Rahadoum or picking a fight with Andoran and Taldor. Cheliax is already mobilising against a regional threat - Tar-Baphon. Cheliax is phasing out slavery by instead introducing conscription to serve in the forces it's sending to contain the undead hordes ravaging the former lands of Lastwall. But a simmering Cold War that will heat up years in the future (as I'm on record being for in the Cheliax thread) feels like a long-term story that could be worth telling.
If Asmodues dies and nobody replaces him as sole ruler of Hell, I could even see all the Archdevils and maybe some of the Infernal Dukes becoming patrons of different aspects of Chellish society - Mammon as patron of bankers, Dispater of prison-wardens and judges, Moloch of soldiers, Geryon of propaganda, Mephistopheles of the diplomatic corps, and so on. Just for fun, make Barbatos the patron of Cheliax's healthcare system. Really lean into Cheliax's relationship with ALL of Hell, not just Asmodeus himself, and tie all of their fortunes into Cheliax's worldly success to forestall a power vacuum.
And somehow they'll still be less pedantic than the IRS.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought a big part of The Measure and Chain was that Hellknights maintain autonomy from the nations that host them, with their services offered via contract but still remaining a third party. While that doesn't stop them from enforcing that nation's laws alongside the nation's own enforcers, granted authority to do so by the monarch (or other head of state, but I imagine they find parliamentary/democratic forms of government flawed at best, outright contemptible at worst) who hired them, they are still not an actual part of the government required to be loyal to the state in all things.
This is why you can have House Thrune being on the verge of declaring the Order of the Scourge outlaws while the Order of the Rack are all but their puppets at this point.
Hellknights COULD still serve in a tax-related capacity, but probably more like a medieval fantasy version of TurboTax or H&R Block. Which I feel would be even funnier.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought a big part of The Measure and Chain was that Hellknights maintain autonomy from the nations that host them, with their services offered via contract but still remaining a third party. While that doesn't stop them from enforcing that nation's laws alongside the nation's own enforcers, granted authority to do so by the monarch (or other head of state, but I imagine they find parliamentary/democratic forms of government flawed at best, outright contemptible at worst) who hired them, they are still not an actual part of the government required to be loyal to the state in all things.
This is why you can have House Thrune being on the verge of declaring the Order of the Scourge outlaws while the Order of the Rack are all but their puppets at this point.
Hellknights COULD still serve in a tax-related capacity, but probably more like a medieval fantasy version of TurboTax or H&R Block. Which I feel would be even funnier.
I used to work as product support for TurboTax and I must disagree; the level of wild chaos and complete lack of organization/structure that the company runs with is clearly Proteans posing as Abadarans. That company is run in such a haphazard, no clear line of command, good luck you're on your own type of system. It's Ganzi Time there.
Which, to be honest... have we discussed the idea of Asmodeus dying, Hell going into a civil war, and some OTHER kind of fiend stepping up to the plate? I'd love to see what happens is Abrogail, suddenly free of her contract, decides to be a bit more free-spirited and says 'Qlippoths, actually...'
I've long longed for more information on the Dukes of Hell (as opposed to the archdevils who are pretty fleshed out) and a rush to claim parts of Cheliax in the wake of Asmodeus' Fall (again) could lead to some of them becoming a bigger part of the setting!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought a big part of The Measure and Chain was that Hellknights maintain autonomy from the nations that host them, with their services offered via contract but still remaining a third party. While that doesn't stop them from enforcing that nation's laws alongside the nation's own enforcers, granted authority to do so by the monarch (or other head of state, but I imagine they find parliamentary/democratic forms of government flawed at best, outright contemptible at worst) who hired them, they are still not an actual part of the government required to be loyal to the state in all things.
This is why you can have House Thrune being on the verge of declaring the Order of the Scourge outlaws while the Order of the Rack are all but their puppets at this point.
Hellknights COULD still serve in a tax-related capacity, but probably more like a medieval fantasy version of TurboTax or H&R Block. Which I feel would be even funnier.
I used to work as product support for TurboTax and I must disagree; the level of wild chaos and complete lack of organization/structure that the company runs with is clearly Proteans posing as Abadarans. That company is run in such a haphazard, no clear line of command, good luck you're on your own type of system. It's Ganzi Time there.
Which, to be honest... have we discussed the idea of Asmodeus dying, Hell going into a civil war, and some OTHER kind of fiend stepping up to the plate? I'd love to see what happens is Abrogail, suddenly free of her contract, decides to be a bit more free-spirited and says 'Qlippoths, actually...'
Doing that would mean Cheliax becoming Millipede Planet during millipede season.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Make it a pantheon. Call it the Infernal Bureaucracy, or something similar. I dig it.
I like this idea but without killing Asmodeus. Instead of making Hell just a copy of the dnd hells with the Archdevils. With there being a bunch of different positions with length titles like the Nessian accountant of infernal warmachines. Honestly the more I think of this, I think this is how I plan to run Hell in the future.
One thing I am curious about is who could replace some of the other suggestions floated around? people have talked about Arezani or Tar-baphon replacing Urgathoa, and various beings replacing Norgorber. But what about what could replace Gozreh or Gorum or Sarenrae?
Not sure on Gorum or Sarenrae but for Gozreh what if instead of a single nature god, you have several, ie all the elemental lords as mentioned in rage of elements?
Due to knocking boots with Asmodeus too much, Sarenrae 'dies' when she becomes corrupted and becomes a Whore Queen.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I could see "Asmodeus is gone, Abrogail goes missing, creating a power vacuum in Cheliax which the Hellknights step in to establish order and rule via a junta" as an interesting story to get involved in.
| 18 people marked this as a favorite. |
Due to knocking boots with Asmodeus too much, Sarenrae 'dies' when she becomes corrupted and becomes a Whore Queen.
They’ve been Queens of the Night for coming up on four years of canon now.
One thing I am curious about is who could replace some of the other suggestions floated around? people have talked about Arezani or Tar-baphon replacing Urgathoa, and various beings replacing Norgorber. But what about what could replace Gozreh or Gorum or Sarenrae?
Not sure on Gorum or Sarenrae but for Gozreh what if instead of a single nature god, you have several, ie all the elemental lords as mentioned in rage of elements?
It would be pretty neat if we, the players, killed Gorum and got to replace him as war gods - put a bit more of ourselves into the games' metaplot. You canonically have a bunch of extremely high-level adventurers who have stopped ancient Mummy Lords, fought and killed Runelords, saved Taldor from war, etc. and then just disappeared. Having ONE adventure where the explanation is literally "they left this world to continue getting more powerful" would be nice, for the paperwork if nothing else. And having a god of war (not the small letters) who passes his power to the one who bests him would be pretty in keeping with Gorum's ethos.
I like the idea of Gozreh being split - they already are noted for their malleability, having different aspects for land and water, and being merged with Desna as the Mwangi syncretic god Shimya-Magalla. In fact, Shimye-Magalla would be my choice, making them a full god in their own right rather than a syncretism or mini-pantheon of the two. But for Sarenrae, I genuinely can't think of anything to seriously take her place - her loss would be so catastrophic it's unfathomable. Maybe Keltheald or Lalaci step up as sun gods to fill the niche, the same way Sarenrae did after the death of Ihys (according to the Asmodean account)? The forgotten Mzali god Easivra makes a comeback? Jerishall? The worship of the Tian-Min goddess Shizuru spreads through Casmaron and the Inner Sea? Those all seem unlikely, and patchwork solutions to a much broader problem. Individual gods might set down roots in Northern Garund, the Mwangi Expanse, Avistan, Casmaron, etc., but I can't see anything that can replace her entirely across the full range of her worship.
Maybe Urgathoa finds her long lost child and vanishes to raise them/keep them safe. I think there might be hints that Sheyln might be behind that as revenge for Nadri being lured away by Urgathoa.
|
|
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Due to knocking boots with Asmodeus too much, Sarenrae 'dies' when she becomes corrupted and becomes a Whore Queen.They’ve been Queens of the Night for coming up on four years of canon now.
It's been even longer, actually! I'm not sure exactly when the change happened, but doing a search of my PF1 books, by the time of the release of Book of the Damned in September 2017 they were referred to as Queens of the Night, with their original titles being used exclusively to talk about how they were called this by mortals and rejected the titles. It's been a long time since they were anything but Queens of the Night! :)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe Urgathoa finds her long lost child and vanishes to raise them/keep them safe. I think there might be hints that Sheyln might be behind that as revenge for Nadri being lured away by Urgathoa.
I thought it was the other way around: Shelyn stole the child and Urgathoa was luring Naderi away as revenge (in addition to whatever the hell is going on in Bastardhall)
Though, to be fair, that may have just been a rumor on the boards as part of the general "The Good gods are hypocrites and just as bad as the so-called evil gods" contrarian sentiment that shows up here every so often.
Didn't the Four Pharaohs of Ascension defeat Urgathoaa's daughter and bury her in what is now Geb? Or am I misinterpreting what is meant by child of Urgathoa?
Well Sheyln really doesn't like Urgathoa due to Nadri being lured away, but what would Urgathoas' beef with Shelyn be? Looks like they have been doing tit for tat.
|
|
Well Sheyln really doesn't like Urgathoa due to Nadri being lured away, but what would Urgathoas' beef with Shelyn be? Looks like they have been doing tit for tat.
The implication, at least from what I read, was that Shelyn started the beef by kidnapping the child for reasons unknown, and Urgathoa's attempting to get back at her by taking Naderi away from her. That's why it's fuel for speculation about Good gods not being Good, because there's no hints as to what Shelyn's motivation for this act was.
No doubt Urgathoa would make a poor mother due to the whole 'Undead loving, baby eating, disease spreader' reputation she has.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think they're going to base a story on the whole "Shelyn stole a baby" thing since James Jacobs is on record as considering that a "writer shouldn't have done that" much like "Paladins of Asmodeus."
So I think that story is officially memory holed, if not errata'd out.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If we're being good conspiracy theorists (and I think we are) should we consider what event some of us have already played through? Might that inform the shape the story takes?
Creative Director
|
| 14 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wow, Mr. Gastone there has a really bad memory since it was literally in response to him that James Jacobs made that statement.
I'm no longer on the lore team, so what stories do and don't continue to grow in 2nd edition aren't really my call these days unless they're adventures or adventure-adjacent, but I stand by my opinion that Shelyn (or any good deity) committing outwardly evil acts, particularly those that are against their characters (or likewise evil deities out of character doing altruistic or good acts) isn't good for the setting's evolving story OR for the peace of mind and trust players have invested in those deities representing things that align with their themes.
Having a deity do something out of character not only disrupts the lore, but potentially disrupts the PCs of any player whose character worships that deity, in a similar way to suddenly saying "Rapiers are now two-handed weapons" would mess up players who assume that rapiers would remain finesse/swashbuckly weapons.
But lore changes aren't as easy to fix and correct in public as are rules changes, as we've seen time and time again.
In any event, let's refrain from implying that folks here have bad memories, please. That sort of comment will only derail the conversation.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, if a Good god has to die I would really hope it's "in service to doing something good" rather than "because they did something out of character one time".
Like Torag dying as part of an apology to the Orcish people making them allies to the Dwarves, or Shelyn dying to save her brother just works better than other reasons they might have died.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Like Torag dying as part of an apology to the Orcish people making them allies to the Dwarves, or Shelyn dying to save her brother just works better than other reasons they might have died.
The notion of Torag dying to save Belkzen, for instance, sounds kind of amazing. Countless orcs renouncing Gorum (or their own racial gods) after seeing the god of their hated enemies dying to save them, when 'their' gods did not could be a cool setting change.
And, as much as I would have loved the idea of Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon 'saving each other' by merging into a single goddess of pain and beauty, all goth-y and body art-sy, is kind of 'been there, done that' now that the setting has gods like Nocticula and Arazni all up in that 'hot, dark and tragic goth goddess' niche.
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Like Torag dying as part of an apology to the Orcish people making them allies to the Dwarves, or Shelyn dying to save her brother just works better than other reasons they might have died.The notion of Torag dying to save Belkzen, for instance, sounds kind of amazing. Countless orcs renouncing Gorum (or their own racial gods) after seeing the god of their hated enemies dying to save them, when 'their' gods did not could be a cool setting change.
And, as much as I would have loved the idea of Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon 'saving each other' by merging into a single goddess of pain and beauty, all goth-y and body art-sy, is kind of 'been there, done that' now that the setting has gods like Nocticula and Arazni all up in that 'hot, dark and tragic goth goddess' niche.
I've never been in a situation that was not improved by the addition of more "hot, dark and tragic goth" goddesses.
But that might just be a matter of preference.
|
|
I don't think they're going to base a story on the whole "Shelyn stole a baby" thing since James Jacobs is on record as considering that a "writer shouldn't have done that" much like "Paladins of Asmodeus."
So I think that story is officially memory holed, if not errata'd out.
Whoa, I did NOT see that response before! Please disregard my previous speculation regarding this affair. And frankly, it makes sense since it would be INCREDIBLY out-of-character for Shelyn overall.
Having a deity do something out of character not only disrupts the lore, but potentially disrupts the PCs of any player whose character worships that deity, in a similar way to suddenly saying "Rapiers are now two-handed weapons" would mess up players who assume that rapiers would remain finesse/swashbuckly weapons.
Besides, two-handed swashbuckly weapons are what estocs are for! ;)
Yeah, if a Good god has to die I would really hope it's "in service to doing something good" rather than "because they did something out of character one time".
Like Torag dying as part of an apology to the Orcish people making them allies to the Dwarves, or Shelyn dying to save her brother just works better than other reasons they might have died.
As I brought up earlier, having Asmodeus dying in a 'hoist by his own petard' situation might be appropriate.
Asmodeus goes to taunt Rovangug again and gets a wee bit too close/taunts too hard and Rovangug breaks out long enough to eat Asmodeus.
This freaks everyone out and they pile in to drive Rovangug back into prison.
Now, lorewise, this could be why the world is hidden away in The Gap(I haven't read Starfinder, just read little bit here and there.) Since the prison has been damaged, various divine/non suicidal personages decide to do a mass migration of people away and seal the world away it fix the prison and work on something more concreate.
This might have plot hooks. Say not everyone has left the planet and stay behind to help keep The Cage secure from anything that might work to free Rovangug. A kind of post apocalyptic setting where groups wander to secure resources from abandoned cities, make sure wards stay maintained and so on.
As for deities and how they act, there are numerous examples from our own stories about how they can be major jerks while still doing beneficial things for their worshipers. The Greek/Norse pantheons got up to all kinds of sketchy stuff like The Norse gods betraying a giant who built a huge wall for them because they didn't want Freya(?) getting married to the giant. Or Zeus who oh boy! Showers of gold, doves and all sorts of things to get laid. So just how would such a deity be done in Pathfinder?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What do we think of this potential plot twist:
The god is already dead. They've stopped answering prayers to their followers and granting spells to their clerics. It may even have happened years ago, but their church is still trying to figure out what to do about it, and how to break the news - the last time a god died on Golarion, it was heralded by earthquakes and tidal waves that devastated the coastlines of the Inner Sea, the Eye of Abendego destroyed Lirgen, and the Worldwound opened up. What catastrophe might they be anticipating this time?
We know that, at the very least, Sarenrae has withdrawn her support entirely from the Cult of the Dawnflower. Given that was Northern Garund's most common Sarenite denomination, and Sarenrae is less common in Avistan, would the Inner Sea notice her absence as much right at this moment in history? With how infamous Cheliax is for its laissez-faire attitude toward the truth and authoritarian enforcement of its interpretation of it, would the average Chelaxian know the Big Red Guy was gone before the Church of Asmodeus could figure out a workaround? How about Abadar, would the banking clerics hide the news for fear of causing an international bank run and crashing the global economy? Etc.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What do we think of this potential plot twist:
The god is already dead. They've stopped answering prayers to their followers and granting spells to their clerics. It may even have happened years ago, but their church is still trying to figure out what to do about it, and how to break the news - the last time a god died on Golarion, it was heralded by earthquakes and tidal waves that devastated the coastlines of the Inner Sea, the Eye of Abendego destroyed Lirgen, and the Worldwound opened up. What catastrophe might they be anticipating this time?
We know that, at the very least, Sarenrae has withdrawn her support entirely from the Cult of the Dawnflower. Given that was Northern Garund's most common Sarenite denomination, and Sarenrae is less common in Avistan, would the Inner Sea notice her absence as much right at this moment in history? With how infamous Cheliax is for its laissez-faire attitude toward the truth and authoritarian enforcement of its interpretation of it, would the average Chelaxian know the Big Red Guy was gone before the Church of Asmodeus could figure out a workaround? How about Abadar, would the banking clerics hide the news for fear of causing an international bank run and crashing the global economy? Etc.
I think that Centaurs and Minotaurs coming in HotW is too strong a hint in the Casmari direction to ignore, and Sarenrae is *beloved* across Kelesh...
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The god is already dead. They've stopped answering prayers to their followers and granting spells to their clerics. It may even have happened years ago, but their church is still trying to figure out what to do about it, and how to break the news - the last time a god died on Golarion, it was heralded by earthquakes and tidal waves that devastated the coastlines of the Inner Sea, the Eye of Abendego destroyed Lirgen, and the Worldwound opened up. What catastrophe might they be anticipating this time?
Taking this to it's logical conclusion... The God is dead, replaced by Xanderghul's illusion...