The more I think about how the magus could change, the thornier I feel the problem is:
The class’s focus on attack spells makes the class a lot less versatile than their arcane casting would suggest.
The magus synergizes so well with a psychic dedication and Imaginary Weapon — it deals massive damage when amped and heightened — that it’s far above and beyond alternatives for burst damage.
The class feels like it should use Intelligence, but is MAD enough already due to its reliance on Strength for melee damage and medium armor on top of the usual Dex/Wis/Con.
As a result, Expansive Spellstrike I think is a trap option: not only is its delivery mechanism inherently less reliable than that for an attack roll spell, you’ll be far less likely to land your effect anyway due to your low Int mod and spellcasting DC. It’s difficult to propose a change to any one of these things without inducing a domino effect everywhere else, which is why I’m all the more curious to see what the remaster will do with the class. I might want to post something in homebrew after a bit more thought, but some ideas off the top of my head:
I’d perhaps want to limit Spellstrike to the magus’s cantrips, but remove the need to recharge Spellstrike on the main class. This would make the magus more versatile with their slots and make the class’s action economy a little less overloaded.
To replace the magus’s 19th-level feature, I wonder if legendary spellcasting proficiency would be okay — this would mainly affect the class’s few slot spells, rather than their attack spells, and make save spells a bit more palatable.
I’d be interested in making conflux spells attack roll spells with their own riders rather than Strikes with a little something extra, then allow them to work with Spellstrike.
If we’re thinking of making Intelligence more valuable, perhaps using it for attack rolls and as a replacement to Strength on Spellstrike could help.
A quick-and easy replacement to Arcane Cascade’s...
My main issues with the magus are how clunky it is with action economy and the repetitive nature of it's turns which would be amplified by the lack of recharge.
I think the solution is bringing back spell combat
Increasing slots, but keeping the spell proficiency where it is.
For arcane cascade I think to remove the clunky aspect it should remove the casting a spell requirement as it can make subclass features downright unusable in some fights because they require arcane cascade. Make it add force damage but the damage changes to whatever damage type you used in your latest spell
I would see if spellstrike and spell combat could be a number of actions equal to the spell's actions in order to allow them to use three actions spells sometimes
If it's not too much being able to trip, shove and disarm with your weapon instead of a strike as part of spellstrike could be cool
Lastly I want 10hp, on the whole class or on inexorable iron and sparkling targe at minimum
To clarify spell combat basically strike and cast a spell for two actions instead of three. The order can be interchanged as to what happens when, but it basically just lets you more easily take advantage of runic weapon at the early levels and cast buffs like haste and such at the later levels
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My main issues with the magus
I think you should just play with a Dual class character and be happy with that. But I feel it would take a triple class Fighter Wizard Magus to meet your requirements.
My main issues with the magusI think you should just play with a Dual class character and be happy with that. But I feel it would take a triple class Fighter Wizard Magus to meet your requirements.
I definitely want to spell strike, I just think we could fix up the action economy and make it more flexible. HP is a practical consideration, especially with the new dying rules. I would possibly say we could bump the currents 10 to 12 and barb to 14
Also I do agree fighter magus dual class with wizard FA would be really fun and cool, but it would be far too good and the action economy would still be bad when doing magus stuff
The Magus is already one of the strongest classes in the game. It doesn't need much improvement.
It's focus spells are useful providing a moderately useful effect while recharging spell strike as a Conflux spell. With the changes to focus points, they're going to become more powerful. Conflux spells improve action economy while allow you to set up.
I use the Runic Weapon conflux spell and force fang all the time to recharge and have maxed out focus spells. I find all my actions and rounds are useful.
Magus has a very effective playstyle with useful feats. Doesn't need much work.
Maybe no AoO for spellstriking in melee range, but not much else.
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Maybe no AoO for spellstriking in melee range, but not much else.
Arcane Cascade needs a fix too, both for new schools and so it does something for the ranged magus.
Maybe no AoO for spellstriking in melee range, but not much else.Arcane Cascade needs a fix too, both for new schools and so it does something for the ranged magus.
Good mention. That does need a fix.
What about being able use Arcane Cascade at the start of the following round, if the last 2 actions on the previous round were to cast a spell? That seems to be a popular house rule already.
That doesn't make it work: as soon as you do an action that isn't Cast a Spell or Spellstrike, the ability ends and the action to go into Arcane Cascade isn't that which means it only works for that single action before it ends.
"Requirements: You used your most recent action to Cast a Spell or make a Spellstrike."
"Stance
Source Core Rulebook pg. 637/Player Core pg. 139
"A stance is a general combat strategy that you enter by using an action with the stance trait, and that you remain in for some time. A stance lasts until you get knocked out, until its requirements (if any) are violated, until the encounter ends, or until you enter a new stance, whichever comes first."
Oh yeah I get that issue! Mine was additive, not a replacement, ie. even if that broken wording is fixed, there is also the issue of the current RAW broken continuity between rounds.
What issue between rounds? It's not an activity so it doesn't require it be done in the same turn. Is there a rule for requirements like the one for activities someplace?
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I think it's just about the consensus about whether or not requirements of your "last action" can be considered between rounds. Currently, it's a no and you need to cascade on the same turn you meet the requirements.
It's one of those 'ask your dm' things a LOT of the game relies on. It's like 'does my fireball set the library on fire' and 'what can my familiar can do in exploration mode'. For instance, reload points out that the dm can allow reload to start in one turn and end in another and there are spells that take 2 rounds like Inner Radiance Torrent so it's something that'd need a system wide clarification vs a specific one just for this ability.
IMO, if a spell activity can span rounds, requirements can.
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It was clarified at some point by a developer I think. Can't recall exactly where or by who though.
It was Logan Bonner on the How It's Played YouTube channel. Here is the link.
Yeah, it was clarified that it has to be the same round. With the remaster, they probably have a line somewhere that explains that now. If not, it'll hopefully come in the SoM errata eventually.
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Oh goodie... another rules clarification on some non-paizo site without any in game/site notification... Just the right place to look for a rule when you need it. On site or in nethys would be too obvious. ;PIt was clarified at some point by a developer I think. Can't recall exactly where or by who though.It was Logan Bonner on the How It's Played YouTube channel. Here is the link.
If not, it'll hopefully come in the SoM errata eventually.
I see nothing altered in the remaster about it. Now i might have missed it if it's hidden someplace in the dm core as I've only skimmed it.
And this right here is why Paizo have avoided doing stuff like this before. While I really appreciate the clarifications, I can't help but think that that was the smarter choice.
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And this right here is why Paizo have avoided doing stuff like this before. While I really appreciate the clarifications, I can't help but think that that was the smarter choice.
I'm not sure I get your exact point. For me, the site have a section called FAQ [frequently asked questions], so it doesn't seem crazy to think when a dev answers a frequently asked question that it might end up in there: it's like the old days where you had to have a list of dev posts in a text file and links so you could point out when clarifications were dropped in random threads.
Add to that that youtube is annoying me about my ad blocker and I'm even LESS thrilled about needing random videos for game updates. [it'll be a cold day in heck when i turn it off to watch a video]
And this right here is why Paizo have avoided doing stuff like this before. While I really appreciate the clarifications, I can't help but think that that was the smarter choice.I'm not sure I get your exact point. For me, the site have a section called FAQ [frequently asked questions], so it doesn't seem crazy to think when a dev answers a frequently asked question that it might end up in there: it's like the old days where you had to have a list of dev posts in a text file and links so you could point out when clarifications were dropped in random threads.
Add to that that youtube is annoying me about my ad blocker and I'm even LESS thrilled about needing random videos for game updates. [it'll be a cold day in heck when i turn it off to watch a video]
Oh yeah, sorry, I was referring to the series of youtube videos. If it was in the FAQ/errata section, it would be fine ^^
I think the one thing that kind of "feels bad" about Magus is that it didn't get new options since release, hopefuly the tian xia book will add a few more feats and options to refresh the class.
Though to be fair, I do think some of its mechanics could use the remaster treatment, mainly arcane cascade and the spellstrike recharging. It's a bit weird how repetitive Magus is, we do have some feats that alter spellstrike and that's something I think would be good to lean into more. As well as some more strike feats that interract with arcane cascade and are either action compression or have additional effects.
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I mean outside of attack spells that often just are single target damage with nothing much else, it'd be neat for the magus to have more ways to feel kind of unique as a blend of martial and magic powers.
Like a special strikes that inflicts penalties on saves against magic or stuff like that.
It really needs stuff to build on Arcane Cascade, it's kind of weak on some hybrid studies.
Like, devastating spellstrike is cool in concept, but its damage seems to low. 5 splash damage at maximum is kind of meh. Like it's neat and is just a flat addition to all your spellstrikes but it's kind of boring.
Abilities to manipulate the action economy more, playing around with arcane cascade, recharge spellstrike and stuff, would go a long way to make the class more fun.
I'd say that can be features added into Arcane Cascade.
Maybe having spellstrike recharge on 1d4 round, or with conflux spells.
And have more options for stuff to do while it is recharging.
But at this point is a big class rework stuff. Since Magus isn't a core class, and didn't have the issues the witch had, i doubt it'll get that kind of treatment. Though I wish the designers could give it a new pass, after the cool stuff they figured out with classes that came later like Psychic, Gunslinger, Kineticist or Thaumaturge
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I think the one thing that kind of "feels bad" about Magus is that it didn't get new options since release, hopefuly the tian xia book will add a few more feats and options to refresh the class.
That's sort of par for the course for classes in PF2. They figure it's better to print things that are applicable to a wide range of characters (like archetypes) instead of printing things applicable to every class. So you generally only get "new stuff for a class" when it's super appropriate.
Yeah that's very true.
It's likely more annoying for the Magus because without specific feats archetypes are hard to work with it to complete their kit since your actions are so restricted. Where any martial could enjoy Wrestler, or Dual Weapon Warrior etc, Magus has more of a hard time picking one. Cavalier seems to be very good for it tho'
Magus is already extraordinarily strong. It may have few feats, but they work well with the action economy of the class. They hit like a truck doing what people expect the magus to do.
They could make Arcane Cascade more clear for those who read it as a problematic feature to trigger. The magus doesn't need much work.
Maybe Starlit Span could use a bit of a nerf. It is one of the few overpowered combinations I've seen in PF2.
Magus class is well-designed from what I can tell as a DM and player. It is one of the more powerful PF2 classes.
The concern isn't about its power, just about some clunkyness and how you're kind of stuck doing a single thing and have little else to do to be useful. Since you have very few spells and your action economy is very, very tight. There are times where you can only do normal strikes with nothing else and it'd be neat to have some more fun things to do.
It's kind of like fighter only having power attack as their only strike.
Yeah, Spellstrike being a somewhat inflexible loop appears to be signposting "you should do something else sometimes."
Well, it would be nice to have other options for when you cannot. Or to have more options on how to do it.
In a system that is so flexible, this inflexibility sometime feels frustrating.
Magus have had other ways to feel like a spellsword, it'd be nice to have some more of those.
Maybe I just hope we get more attack spells with interresting effects so Magus has a bit more ways to make spellstrike interresting.
Or maybe that spellstrike is reworked a bit to work more similarly to Channel Smite and allow single target spells with saves too, and Expansive becomes for aoe/multi target save spells.
...
They could make Arcane Cascade more clear for those who read it as a problematic feature to trigger. The magus doesn't need much work.
...
The rules for remaining in Arcade Cascade were obviously confusing (thankfully that was fixed in the remaster errata), but what was the confusion about entering the stance?
Yeah I am questioning that as well. It is pretty clear, just clunky.
Yeah I am questioning that as well. It is pretty clear, just clunky.
I'm expecting that the answer is 'no', but...
Would it be less clunky to have the ability split into two abilities?
One being a new "Arcana Siphon" ability:
Arcana Siphon [free action]
Trigger: Your last action this round was to cast a spell or use Spellstrike.
Effect: You enter Arcane Cascade stance.
Arcane Cascade
[stance]
Requirements: none
<Current rules for Arcane Cascade benefits.>
The rules for remaining in Arcade Cascade were obviously confusing (thankfully that was fixed in the remaster errata), but what was the confusion about entering the stance?...
They could make Arcane Cascade more clear for those who read it as a problematic feature to trigger. The magus doesn't need much work.
...
I assume It's a question about what happens if your most recent action to Cast a Spell or make a Spellstrike happened last round.
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I assume It's a question about what happens if your most recent action to Cast a Spell or make a Spellstrike happened last round.The rules for remaining in Arcade Cascade were obviously confusing (thankfully that was fixed in the remaster errata), but what was the confusion about entering the stance?...
They could make Arcane Cascade more clear for those who read it as a problematic feature to trigger. The magus doesn't need much work.
...
That was also clarified in the Remaster Compatibility Errata for Secrets of Magic.
Requirements: You used your most recent action this turn to Cast a Spell or make a Spellstrike. You need to meet this requirement only to enter the stance, not to remain in it.
I assume It's a question about what happens if your most recent action to Cast a Spell or make a Spellstrike happened last round.The rules for remaining in Arcade Cascade were obviously confusing (thankfully that was fixed in the remaster errata), but what was the confusion about entering the stance?...
They could make Arcane Cascade more clear for those who read it as a problematic feature to trigger. The magus doesn't need much work.
...That was also clarified in the Remaster Compatibility Errata for Secrets of Magic.
Requirements: You used your most recent action this turn to Cast a Spell or make a Spellstrike. You need to meet this requirement only to enter the stance, not to remain in it.
Ah, ok. It's not updated on nethys and I don't recall all the errata.
Yeah I am questioning that as well. It is pretty clear, just clunky.I'm expecting that the answer is 'no', but...
Would it be less clunky to have the ability split into two abilities?
One being a new "Arcana Siphon" ability:
Arcana Siphon [free action]
Trigger: Your last action this round was to cast a spell or use Spellstrike.
Effect: You enter Arcane Cascade stance.Arcane Cascade
[stance]
Requirements: none
<Current rules for Arcane Cascade benefits.>
Tbh it would make it easier to enter. Magus does need some more action management options. Arcane Cascade on a reaction, or exiting it on a reaction/free action to recharge spellstrike once per 10 minute or something like that could be neat.
The rules for remaining in Arcade Cascade were obviously confusing (thankfully that was fixed in the remaster errata), but what was the confusion about entering the stance?...
They could make Arcane Cascade more clear for those who read it as a problematic feature to trigger. The magus doesn't need much work.
...
Remaining in the stance is the problem I'm talking about. Some were claiming the trigger prevented continuous of the stance.
Remaining in the stance is the problem I'm talking about. Some were claiming the trigger prevented continuous of the stance.The rules for remaining in Arcade Cascade were obviously confusing (thankfully that was fixed in the remaster errata), but what was the confusion about entering the stance?...
They could make Arcane Cascade more clear for those who read it as a problematic feature to trigger. The magus doesn't need much work.
...
Those were mostly memey or bad faith arguments because of the wording of the stance.
It got addressed in an errata to work as intended (aka: cast a spell, and in the same turn you can use an action to enter the arcane cascade, and remain until knocked out, ending combat, changing stance or exiting it willingly)
Remaining in the stance is the problem I'm talking about. Some were claiming the trigger prevented continuous of the stance.The rules for remaining in Arcade Cascade were obviously confusing (thankfully that was fixed in the remaster errata), but what was the confusion about entering the stance?...
They could make Arcane Cascade more clear for those who read it as a problematic feature to trigger. The magus doesn't need much work.
...
I remembered they fixed that issue with the new errata:
"Requirements You used your most recent action this turn to Cast a Spell or make a Spellstrike. You need to meet this requirement only to enter the stance, not to remain in it."
Tbh it would make it easier to enter. Magus does need some more action management options. Arcane Cascade on a reaction, or exiting it on a reaction/free action to recharge spellstrike once per 10 minute or something like that could be neat.Yeah I am questioning that as well. It is pretty clear, just clunky.I'm expecting that the answer is 'no', but...
Would it be less clunky to have the ability split into two abilities?
One being a new "Arcana Siphon" ability:
Arcana Siphon [free action]
Trigger: Your last action this round was to cast a spell or use Spellstrike.
Effect: You enter Arcane Cascade stance.Arcane Cascade
[stance]
Requirements: none
<Current rules for Arcane Cascade benefits.>
Ah. My turn to be corrected. That should still be one action to enter the stance. Or Arcana Siphon in the proposed rewording.
The point is that while the post-errata wording of Arcane Cascade may be a bit clunky, it isn't any clunkier than anything else I can come up with.
I assume It's a question about what happens if your most recent action to Cast a Spell or make a Spellstrike happened last round.The rules for remaining in Arcade Cascade were obviously confusing (thankfully that was fixed in the remaster errata), but what was the confusion about entering the stance?...
They could make Arcane Cascade more clear for those who read it as a problematic feature to trigger. The magus doesn't need much work.
...
Ah ha. Before the errata I could see disputes there, too.